Dev explanation about about Argonian racials please?

PlagueMonk · July 2016

As an Argonian player I played other ES games, read descriptions and was looking forward to playing one long term in ESO but what I was greeted with was.....restoration expert?, people can heal us better?, good with potions? About the only thing that made sense was the increased swimming speed and a bit of disease resistance. (Now I think art assets did a great job with the look but racials are....lacking).

So I would ask Worbel and others responsible for making the racial decisions........WHY are you blatently ignoring the deep Argonian lore that your own company has built up over 20 years of game development? You seem to have gotten many of the other races flavor right but Argonians seem completely out of touch with lore

To give others (and the Devs it would seem) a brief rundown of what Argonians were adept at in previous ES games, let me do some cut/pasting from the descriptions:

General From Wiki:
Argonians, like the other series races, have been given certain abilities to reflect their racial strengths throughout the games. In both Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim they were given the ability to breathe underwater, suggesting an amphibian propensity, in line with various lore descriptions of their aquatic habits. For example, they have been described in every game manual since Daggerfall as being equally at home in both water and on land. The Morrowind website also describes the Argonian race as "[having] developed natural immunities to the diseases and poisons that have doomed many would-be explorers into the region", which is again reflected in their abilities, with Argonians given a significant chance of bearing no infection from poisonous blows and diseased animals. Argonians also possess a thick scaly hide, compared by a developer to that of a snake. Physically tougher than what the Argonians call "soft-skins", Argonians are given a small bonus to their Unarmored skill.

From Arena:
Argonians hail from the province of Black Marsh. They are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in any marsh-like environment from which they hail. They are known for their intelligence, agility, and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept at any art involving the arcane, or involving thievery and sleight of hand.

Daggerfall:
The Shadowscales are a longstanding monastic order of Argonian assassins that worship Sithis, the Void, and consists of Saxhleel born underneath the sign of the Shadow. According to some sources the downfall of the ancient Argonians was because their ‘scales were darkened’ by the touch of Sithis. Shadowscales also serve as a type of ‘law enforcement’ in Black Marsh, bringing down ‘swamp law’ on unruly foreigners and natives alike. They are offered at birth to the Dark Brotherhood, a guild of assassins that also follows Sithis, to be trained in stealth and assassination.

Sorry no general info I could find other than racial starting stats.

Morrowind:
Argonians (in their native tongue of Jel they call themselves the Saxhleel, or People of the Root) are the reptilian natives of Black Marsh, a vast swampland province in southeastern Tamriel. The other races often prefer to refer to them as ‘lizards’ or the ‘Lizard Folk’ instead, especially when meaning to be derogative. They are known as the foremost experts in guerrilla warfare throughout the Starry Heart, a reputation brought upon them by defending their borders from enemies for countless centuries. Argonians have a lifespan similar to that of humans. According to the First Era Scholar Brendan the Persistent “the Argonian people have, throughout Tamrielic history, been perhaps the most misunderstood, vilified, and reviled of all the sentient races. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience Argonian culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people". However, it should be noted that he himself went missing in his final expedition into the deeper swamps of their homeland.

At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility. Argonians are reserved with strangers, yet fiercely loyal to those they accept as friends. Like the Khajiit, Argonians are limited to some headgear and no footwear.

With skills in combat and magic, they are well rounded characters. The lack of the ability to wear full armor as a beast race prevents Argonians from being overwhelming warriors, knights or crusaders. This, combined with the lack of magicka-increasing abilities, would make them just about the worst battlemages; however, the female Argonians can make an amazing battlemage with the correct class and birthsign (Ex. Lady with 10 Extra Willpower and Agility). Argonians males can however make the finest nightblades and excel as scouts and witchhunters, with males being more adept at thievery. Females being more adept casters more suitably go out of the lines of stealth. Going all-out mage, sorcerer or pilgrim with females will work too, but necessitates a birthsign that increases magicka, and males can make decent thieves, rogues and assassins.

Oblivion:
The Argonians are the reptiloid natives of the Black Marsh of southern Tamriel. Their amphibious physique suits them for aquatic and terrestrial habitation. Years of living in dangerous bogs and swamps has bolstered their immunity to the diseases and poisons found there. Behind expressionless faces, Argonians possess a quiet intellect, and because of this, many are talented mages. Naturally agile, Argonians also make keen rogues and warriors.

Argonians have gills on their necks and are covered in scales. This gives Argonians the unique ability to breathe underwater, which has proven to be an advantage in combat with other races, especially in the swamps of Black Marsh. Argonians are trained in guerrilla warfare to drown their enemies by dragging them to the water and holding them under.

Argonians have very sharp reptilian teeth lining their mouths, which, if they are unarmed, can be used as an effective weapon. If an Argonian becomes a vampire, they appear to age tenfold and their eyes turn light red and nearly blank, though their pupils are still visible. Argonians possess tails, the only race besides the Khajiit to do so. When swimming they use their tails to propel themselves as they glide through the water like a fish (this does not however equate into an actual speed bonus in-game when swimming as an Argonian, the Speed attribute still determines that). An Argonian's tail is also used for balance giving them an extra advantage in certain situations. This is one of the many reasons Argonians are effective as thieves and assassins.

Skyrim:
The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training.

They are roughly comparable to their rivals and neighbors, the Khajiit and the Bosmer. Like the Khajiit, Argonians do more damage in unarmed combat compared to other races, due to their tough, scaled skin, though not as much as their clawed feline counterparts.

Argonians have unique advantages due to their natural waterbreathing ability. This gives them an all-terrain versatility in an area that other races need magic, potions, or enchanted gear to fill. Argonians are able to make ample use of Skyrim's waterways as a means of quick travel, free from ambush and interference (for example, traveling from Riverwood to Whiterun by river can be quite expedient and avoids roadside hazards including wolves, bandits, and assassins). River travel has its own share of hazards, however, such as waterfalls, rapids, and hostile animals such as Slaughterfish and Mudcrabs.

Oh and lets not leave out ESO! They also posted a description.....
Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers.

Check it out for yourselves

That last one is the icing on the cake so to speak. It succinctly matches the above lengthy descriptions into a few short sentences (but completely fails to describe the actual, in game version)

So here is a brief summary of what Argonians "should" be good at/have:

- breathe underwater
- natural immunities to the diseases and poisons
- possess a thick scaly hide
- known for their intelligence, agility, and speed
- swim faster than any other race
- adept at any art involving the arcane, or involving thievery and sleight of hand
- Renowned Shadowscales, assassins, Witchhunters, skirmishers, thieves, scouts, and ambushers, NIGHTBLADES
- foremost experts in guerrilla warfare
- Then there are other things not mentioned like the Hist abilities

And to be fair I didn't cherry pick info so you will find some negatives like being notorious for low endurance, not good with bows, can't wear some armor (doesn't apply in ESO of course), males being better at the physical while female magic, etc.

Some of these and also infeasible like underwater breathing (since ESO has no blow the water content) but others could easily be represented.

So I ask again W H Y does ESO not follow all of this lore? Why are Argonians relegated to healing when the lore CLEARLY points them to magicka and especially Nightblade types?

Lord_Eomer · July 2016

No body takes this lizard folks seriously, first they were prisoners and now facing height of ignorance .

They deserve to be best magicka NB not altemrs..

Anti_Virus · July 2016

Meh, no one respects argonians. And the devs don't really care about the lore they just wanted a healer race and they choose argonians to be that race.

Footfalls · July 2016

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

PlagueMonk · July 2016

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but I have a Stamblade so I would have preferred that choice myself but every bit of information I found from previous games points to the magicka side.

Darkonflare15 · July 2016

PlagueMonk wrote: »

As an Argonian player I played other ES games, read descriptions and was looking forward to playing one long term in ESO but what I was greeted with was.....restoration expert?, people can heal us better?, good with potions? About the only thing that made sense was the increased swimming speed and a bit of disease resistance. (Now I think art assets did a great job with the look but racials are....lacking).

So I would ask Worbel and others responsible for making the racial decisions........WHY are you blatently ignoring the deep Argonian lore that your own company has built up over 20 years of game development? You seem to have gotten many of the other races flavor right but Argonians seem completely out of touch with lore

To give others (and the Devs it would seem) a brief rundown of what Argonians were adept at in previous ES games, let me do some cut/pasting from the descriptions:

General From Wiki:
Argonians, like the other series races, have been given certain abilities to reflect their racial strengths throughout the games. In both Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim they were given the ability to breathe underwater, suggesting an amphibian propensity, in line with various lore descriptions of their aquatic habits. For example, they have been described in every game manual since Daggerfall as being equally at home in both water and on land. The Morrowind website also describes the Argonian race as "[having] developed natural immunities to the diseases and poisons that have doomed many would-be explorers into the region", which is again reflected in their abilities, with Argonians given a significant chance of bearing no infection from poisonous blows and diseased animals. Argonians also possess a thick scaly hide, compared by a developer to that of a snake. Physically tougher than what the Argonians call "soft-skins", Argonians are given a small bonus to their Unarmored skill.

From Arena:
Argonians hail from the province of Black Marsh. They are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in any marsh-like environment from which they hail. They are known for their intelligence, agility, and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept at any art involving the arcane, or involving thievery and sleight of hand.

Daggerfall:
The Shadowscales are a longstanding monastic order of Argonian assassins that worship Sithis, the Void, and consists of Saxhleel born underneath the sign of the Shadow. According to some sources the downfall of the ancient Argonians was because their ‘scales were darkened’ by the touch of Sithis. Shadowscales also serve as a type of ‘law enforcement’ in Black Marsh, bringing down ‘swamp law’ on unruly foreigners and natives alike. They are offered at birth to the Dark Brotherhood, a guild of assassins that also follows Sithis, to be trained in stealth and assassination.

Sorry no general info I could find other than racial starting stats.

Morrowind:
Argonians (in their native tongue of Jel they call themselves the Saxhleel, or People of the Root) are the reptilian natives of Black Marsh, a vast swampland province in southeastern Tamriel. The other races often prefer to refer to them as ‘lizards’ or the ‘Lizard Folk’ instead, especially when meaning to be derogative. They are known as the foremost experts in guerrilla warfare throughout the Starry Heart, a reputation brought upon them by defending their borders from enemies for countless centuries. Argonians have a lifespan similar to that of humans. According to the First Era Scholar Brendan the Persistent “the Argonian people have, throughout Tamrielic history, been perhaps the most misunderstood, vilified, and reviled of all the sentient races. Yet, those who have taken the time to experience Argonian culture have gained a greater appreciation for this noble and beautiful people". However, it should be noted that he himself went missing in his final expedition into the deeper swamps of their homeland.

At home in water and on land, the Argonians of Black Marsh are well-suited to the treacherous swamps of their homeland, with natural immunities protecting them from disease and poison. The female life-phase is highly intelligent, and gifted in the magical arts. The more aggressive male phase has the traits of the hunter: stealth, speed, and agility. Argonians are reserved with strangers, yet fiercely loyal to those they accept as friends. Like the Khajiit, Argonians are limited to some headgear and no footwear.

With skills in combat and magic, they are well rounded characters. The lack of the ability to wear full armor as a beast race prevents Argonians from being overwhelming warriors, knights or crusaders. This, combined with the lack of magicka-increasing abilities, would make them just about the worst battlemages; however, the female Argonians can make an amazing battlemage with the correct class and birthsign (Ex. Lady with 10 Extra Willpower and Agility). Argonians males can however make the finest nightblades and excel as scouts and witchhunters, with males being more adept at thievery. Females being more adept casters more suitably go out of the lines of stealth. Going all-out mage, sorcerer or pilgrim with females will work too, but necessitates a birthsign that increases magicka, and males can make decent thieves, rogues and assassins.

Oblivion:
The Argonians are the reptiloid natives of the Black Marsh of southern Tamriel. Their amphibious physique suits them for aquatic and terrestrial habitation. Years of living in dangerous bogs and swamps has bolstered their immunity to the diseases and poisons found there. Behind expressionless faces, Argonians possess a quiet intellect, and because of this, many are talented mages. Naturally agile, Argonians also make keen rogues and warriors.

Argonians have gills on their necks and are covered in scales. This gives Argonians the unique ability to breathe underwater, which has proven to be an advantage in combat with other races, especially in the swamps of Black Marsh. Argonians are trained in guerrilla warfare to drown their enemies by dragging them to the water and holding them under.

Argonians have very sharp reptilian teeth lining their mouths, which, if they are unarmed, can be used as an effective weapon. If an Argonian becomes a vampire, they appear to age tenfold and their eyes turn light red and nearly blank, though their pupils are still visible. Argonians possess tails, the only race besides the Khajiit to do so. When swimming they use their tails to propel themselves as they glide through the water like a fish (this does not however equate into an actual speed bonus in-game when swimming as an Argonian, the Speed attribute still determines that). An Argonian's tail is also used for balance giving them an extra advantage in certain situations. This is one of the many reasons Argonians are effective as thieves and assassins.

Skyrim:
The Argonians' stealth and lockpicking make them brilliant assassins, thieves, scouts, and ambushers. Their lack of combat bonuses in archery and one-handed weapons can be overcome by natural skill leveling and play. Argonians can be used fairly well as spellswords, but conjuration training may be necessary. They can also be useful mage-thieves due to their skills in both magic and stealth, though one may want some illusion training.

They are roughly comparable to their rivals and neighbors, the Khajiit and the Bosmer. Like the Khajiit, Argonians do more damage in unarmed combat compared to other races, due to their tough, scaled skin, though not as much as their clawed feline counterparts.

Argonians have unique advantages due to their natural waterbreathing ability. This gives them an all-terrain versatility in an area that other races need magic, potions, or enchanted gear to fill. Argonians are able to make ample use of Skyrim's waterways as a means of quick travel, free from ambush and interference (for example, traveling from Riverwood to Whiterun by river can be quite expedient and avoids roadside hazards including wolves, bandits, and assassins). River travel has its own share of hazards, however, such as waterfalls, rapids, and hostile animals such as Slaughterfish and Mudcrabs.

Oh and lets not leave out ESO! They also posted a description.....
Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers.

Check it out for yourselves

That last one is the icing on the cake so to speak. It succinctly matches the above lengthy descriptions into a few short sentences (but completely fails to describe the actual, in game version)

So here is a brief summary of what Argonians "should" be good at/have:

- breathe underwater
- natural immunities to the diseases and poisons
- possess a thick scaly hide
- known for their intelligence, agility, and speed
- swim faster than any other race
- adept at any art involving the arcane, or involving thievery and sleight of hand
- Renowned Shadowscales, assassins, Witchhunters, skirmishers, thieves, scouts, and ambushers, NIGHTBLADES
- foremost experts in guerrilla warfare
- Then there are other things not mentioned like the Hist abilities

And to be fair I didn't cherry pick info so you will find some negatives like being notorious for low endurance, not good with bows, can't wear some armor (doesn't apply in ESO of course), males being better at the physical while female magic, etc.

Some of these and also infeasible like underwater breathing (since ESO has no blow the water content) but others could easily be represented.

So I ask again W H Y does ESO not follow all of this lore? Why are Argonians relegated to healing when the lore CLEARLY points them to magicka and especially Nightblade types?

Well Argonian lore was only truly depicted in skill stats in the past games. There are no tradtional skills in this game. So the devs had to go by the actually racial skills. Like diease/poison resistance and faster swim speed but Argonians do not have any other benefit racial wise until Skyrim when they gave them Hist skin which allows them faster healing due to their conection to the Hist. Due to this Argonians are a survival race and are a jack of all trades race. They are not really good at any anything. They are just ok at everything.

They never been an offensive race and players has to make them better by actually training their skills to fit a role when playing in the past games. They gave them increase health for survivabity and the potion passives actually makes it so depending on how a player builds their Argonain how many resources you get back like health,stamina, and magicka. The reason for this passive is Argonians get combat prowness from Hist sap which is extracted and is use like a potion. Hist sap was a potion back in Oblivion. Healing recived and healing done ties with Hist skin ability which allows Argonians to heal fast. Most smaller Argonian villages leaders are known as tree minders which takes care of the hist tree and are healers. Regardless of what people may say the Argonian passives are indeed lore friendly since the lore has been expanded greatly since this game has came out.

PlagueMonk · July 2016

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

snip

Well Argonian lore was only truly depicted in skill stats in the past games. There are no tradtional skills in this game. So the devs had to go by the actually racial skills. Like diease/poison resistance and faster swim speed but Argonians do not have any other benefit racial wise until Skyrim when they gave them Hist skin which allows them faster healing due to their conection to the Hist. Due to this Argonians are a survival race and are a jack of all trades race. They are not really good at any anything. They are just ok at everything.

Dude, did you even READ everything I posted? There is not a single thing I made up. All I did was compile information from previous games.

Terms like "finest", "experts" and "adept" don't sound like "not really good at anything" to me.

They never been an offensive race and players has to make them better by actually training their skills to fit a role when playing in the past games. They gave them increase health for survivabity and the potion passives actually makes it so depending on how a player builds their Argonain how many resources you get back like health,stamina, and magicka. The reason for this passive is Argonians get combat prowness from Hist sap which is extracted and is use like a potion. Hist sap was a potion back in Oblivion. Healing recived and healing done ties with Hist skin ability which allows Argonians to heal fast. Most smaller Argonian villages leaders are known as tree minders which takes care of the hist tree and are healers. Regardless of what people may say the Argonian passives are indeed lore friendly since the lore has been expanded greatly since this game has came out.

Argonians were never a high health race and had horrible endurance. Histskin kind of made up for those shortcomings:

Histskin is a racial ability granted to Argonians in The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. It is a greater power that improves health restoration 10x for 60 seconds. As a visual effect, it causes the caster's frame to glow with a luminous golden light. When an Argonian is injured or near death they can call to the Hist to heal them of any ailments or injuries.

I would love to have that ability but it just wouldn't work in ESO

I'm not going to claim there were no healers but they were mainly female while the more physical side was dominated by males. Since we don't have gender differences in ESO, that has to fall by the wayside.(and I'm sorry but getting better heals from others or being better at healing is NOT what the hist gave. I was a personal SELF heal)

The current passives are not lore friendly because they expand and twist certain things while neglecting an entire side to the race (a side that dominates descriptions in ALL the games including ESO)

STEVIL · July 2016

I think, OP, you are asking for a far geater emphasis on race than this game provides. if half the things you describe were applied they would jump beyond the power level of other races passives. So that would mean all races got major massive upticks.

Clearly, i believe, for ESo the decision was made to make racials less significant as a whole and thus less straightjacketing, while leaving the "excellence" in various areas to be provided by the many other build options including skills and guilds.

As an example, couldn't the argonian warfare style be represented not by a hard-coded racial biology factor but instead by believing "argonians tend to choose nightblade or stealth combat options more often than say tanking"? Then they leave you to build that argonian you want.

Honestly if the racials hard coded in your list, it looks like they are good at almost everything.

if every race gets similar lvels of broad scope and impact in their racials, so everyone is good at everything, then nobody is good at anything.

Footfalls · July 2016

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but I have a Stamblade so I would have preferred that choice myself but every bit of information I found from previous games points to the magicka side.

Eh, I guess I meant more hybrid. Historically the females had more willpower and intelligence while the males had more speed and athletics. I would prefer it if their passives reflected this dunmer style rather than the "give Argonians magicka!" cry that's been going about. Worst is healing specialist, the only previous reference to that was Skyrim where Argonians got a resto learning bonus (but in previous games they've been shown to have mysticism, illusion, and alteration bonuses as well.)

My suggestion:

2/4/6% stam, +1/3/5% disease/poison damage
2/4/6% health, +disease/poison resist (same resist numbers as live but lowered health to compensate for other buffs)
2/4/6% magicka, +1/3/5% healing taken (because healing taken is more lore friendly than healing done for Argonians)

This makes Argonians more of a hybrid race (fits with their lore) while also making sure they won't outshine the current top dps races (because those are completely focused on either magicka or stamina).

Also, giving Argonians a lore-friendly +poison/disease damage passive opens up design space for other lore-friendly passives for other races such as +physical damage for Redguard/Orc/Nord, +magic damage for Breton and +bow damage for Bosmer.

Roechacca · July 2016

He gave his reasons on ESO live. Go on twitch and watch the last episode. Getting him to post on the forums what he said there will be difficult. An even if he does, he's just going to repeat himself.

Footfalls · July 2016

Roechacca wrote: »

He gave his reasons on ESO live. Go on twitch and watch the last episode. Getting him to post on the forums what he said there will be difficult. An even if he does, he's just going to repeat himself.

ESO live is really long, I don't have enough time to watch all of it. Do you have a time stamp or approximate location when he talks about it?

AmakarGranaen · July 2016

Making argonians a hybrid race might just work

Beardimus · July 2016

I would never have touched Argonian before the change (more RP than min/max reasons) , toyed with a Sorc pet healer build for a while at thus the 9% swayed me to roll one

Lore wise, as the game is millennia prior to all the others civilisations surely can change too no? Happens IRL

PlagueMonk · July 2016

Roechacca wrote: »

He gave his reasons on ESO live. Go on twitch and watch the last episode. Getting him to post on the forums what he said there will be difficult. An even if he does, he's just going to repeat himself.

I'm sure he did but what they are more than anything is excuses to just do whatever the hell he wants instead of following 20 years of established lore.

Now I haven't actually heard these excuses personally and am interested so, link to the video and timestamp or all it is is hearsay.

Rat-King wrote: »

Making argonians a hybrid race might just work

Problem is, hybrid doesn't work in the game currently with the soft caps removed. It's ALL about max magicka or max stamina. Since your damage is based primarily around your resource pool, the more you have the better and the faster you kill ****. Investing evenly between the 2 pools gains you a versatility to be sure but you will be mediocre at everything you do.

Get the soft caps put back in place and then we will talk.

Beardimus wrote: »

I would never have touched Argonian before the change (more RP than min/max reasons) , toyed with a Sorc pet healer build for a while at thus the 9% swayed me to roll one

Lore wise, as the game is millennia prior to all the others civilisations surely can change too no? Happens IRL

yes it "can" but no other race went through dramatic changes, why this one race? Sounds like justifying to fit your needs instead of following the lore like ALL of the other races.

Of course then there is this (which come directly off the ESO website):

Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers.

Seems like even Zenimax doesn't think Argonians should change because that description matches previous lore. (this doesn't match the actual, in-game version but proves they are ignoring past canon)

Abeille · July 2016

You have my full support, OP.

Since you already posted everything needed to show that the Argonian passives in ESO do not follow the established lore, I have nothing relevant to add other than my support, really. What annoys me the most is that Argonians don't have a single stealth-related passive.

PlagueMonk · July 2016

Roechacca wrote: »

He gave his reasons on ESO live. Go on twitch and watch the last episode. Getting him to post on the forums what he said there will be difficult. An even if he does, he's just going to repeat himself.

Footfalls wrote: »

ESO live is really long, I don't have enough time to watch all of it. Do you have a time stamp or approximate location when he talks about it?

I found it. This is the twitter feed from the last ESO live

Worbel comes in at about 1hr 6 mins to talk about racial passives.

He said NOTHING about the actual reasons why the changes were made in the first place. Only that a lot of sap tanks complained so they took the 5%/5% middle of the road. So sorry but fail.

I want to hear, in the face of all the empirical evidence I have provided, WHY a race RENOWN for being a Shadowscale, assassin, Nightblade and guerilla warfare EXPERT is relegated to the role of niche tank and healer?

Jar_Ek · July 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel
I assume that you guys don't really understand why Argonian players don't like their passives. Let me try to help.

The Argonian passives don't form any cohesive whole at the moment. They blend health with healing received, some situational resistances, and a resource return mechanism that is tied to potion use... making them a tank race. But they don't really excel at it and some get the idea that they should be healers because of a training passive or assassins because of previous games. But the current game doesn't really support tanks... the meta is mostly dps maybe with self healing (vma and pvp demonstrate the latter and block regeneration nerfs the former).
This makes Argonians a "meh" race atm on live... not really the first choice for anything (even, ironically, tanks as the stamina recovery of red guards make them much better).

Now on pts, they have been watered down as tanks and made better at healing. However they have not been made great healers... and as a consequence they are in a undesirable hybrid place where they have a very limited set of good builds available. 3% max magicka and 5% healing done doesn't make the full healers (and the lore doesn't support it very well either), and 5% healing received and some max health doesn't make them great tanks.

If they are to be more popular, you need to think about the passives are their utility.

Potion passives are always going to be disliked by many even if they are mathematically better than an always on passive...because they require active intervention, cost gold, and it makes players feel they must use a specific playstyle (thirsty). So if they are going to stay they have to be good. The best idea is tied to clever alchemist in that if drinking a potion had an offensive impact people would think that it was better.

Resistances are only situationally useful and hence unless they are universal in application (ie reduce the effect of pvp weapon poisons) then they are essentially discounted by most players - and probably even then. Why? Because they are not needed at all... they simply provide a damage reduction in specific instances. They do nothing for sustain or dps.

Finally healing received is considered okay but not great as it simply helps keep you alive... compared to a max resource stat that improves damage, heals, etc. And in a similar fashion max health is worse than max resources as they provide more than just health.

Anyway, I hope these thoughts help you in your search for balance. You are not there yet... not even close imho.

Lord_Eomer · July 2016

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but I have a Stamblade so I would have preferred that choice myself but every bit of information I found from previous games points to the magicka side.

Yea lizard folks are more connected to magicka

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

How many stamina races you want? There are currently 6 pure stamina focused races and magicka have only 3 (2 DPS , 1 medicore) and arogonian may be 4th hopefully

PlagueMonk · July 2016

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but I have a Stamblade so I would have preferred that choice myself but every bit of information I found from previous games points to the magicka side.

Yea lizard folks are more connected to magicka

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

How many stamina races you want? There are currently 6 pure stamina focused races and magicka have only 3 (2 DPS , 1 medicore) and arogonian may be 4th hopefully

Wait.......you don't consider 3% to be worthy of being labeled the 4th?

As it stands we have 3 magicka, 6 stamina and 1......well not either of them (which is frankly bull****)

Want to know what kills me even more? Worbel said point blank the game is more DPS oriented so he wanted to make sure EVERY race had an offensive ability.......and then gives Argonians HEALING. Again what a load of ****. I do not consider the potion racial to be offensive or more health or healing received so the Argonian "offensive" ability must be the 3% measly magicka? What- a - joke when other races get THREE+ TIMES the offensive racial bonus! All things being equal, these offensive bonuses should be roughly equal among ALL races.

Junkogen · July 2016

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

I'm not sure if you are being serious or not but I have a Stamblade so I would have preferred that choice myself but every bit of information I found from previous games points to the magicka side.

Yea lizard folks are more connected to magicka

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

How many stamina races you want? There are currently 6 pure stamina focused races and magicka have only 3 (2 DPS , 1 medicore) and arogonian may be 4th hopefully

Wait.......you don't consider 3% to be worthy of being labeled the 4th?

As it stands we have 3 magicka, 6 stamina and 1......well not either of them (which is frankly bull****)

Want to know what kills me even more? Worbel said point blank the game is more DPS oriented so he wanted to make sure EVERY race had an offensive ability.......and then gives Argonians HEALING. Again what a load of ****. I do not consider the potion racial to be offensive or more health or healing received so the Argonian "offensive" ability must be the 3% measly magicka? What- a - joke when other races get THREE+ TIMES the offensive racial bonus! All things being equal, these offensive bonuses should be roughly equal among ALL races.

Time and time again, the Argonians somehow come up short. There's no way to get them balanced. The devs overvalue the Argonian passives. Until they acknowledge the deficit, this is always how it's going to be. Unfortunately, they don't believe one exists. Obviously they think the racials are fine as is. It's impossible to get the necessary changes when those in control won't acknowledge the full scope of the problem.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2016

Footfalls wrote: »

TBH I see Argonians as more stamina nightblades than magicka nightblades. You're cherry picking.

I have to say I agree with this guy, although to be fair with Morrowind we saw female Argonian mages, and sneaky Argonian males (thieves and otherwise). As a whole though I have always viewed them as more of a stamina race, and their Longspear, Endurance, and Athletics seem to point toward that.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2016

Abeille wrote: »

You have my full support, OP.

Since you already posted everything needed to show that the Argonian passives in ESO do not follow the established lore, I have nothing relevant to add other than my support, really. What annoys me the most is that Argonians don't have a single stealth-related passive.

This is the main thing that has rubbed me wrong for a long while. Literally no other race has more members in the Dark Brotherhood, which I must admit is odd since the night mother is the corpse of a Dunmer chick. The race is known for being full of guile, and skilled at stealth and guerrilla warfare. The ONE thing I would have expected them to excel at and have no one be better at, is stealth. While Khajiit and Bosmer have good reason to be on par, I did not expect the Argonians to be beaten by these two on this front. I'm still annoyed by this fact, and I'll continue to be so. I actually wear blue v12 gear sets while thieving just so it doesn't anger me that I'm not as sneaky as a bosmer.

The second big thing about Argonian attributes that bothers me, is the fact that any race has better health regeneration. I'd love it if they had a health regeneration that scaled up the lower their health were, although I suspect that would be too complicated.

The third issue that bothers me with Argonian attributes is that the magnitude of poison and disease resistance is far too low. It should border 4000 resist at Veteran and be on par with the spell resist of Bretons or the Fire resist of dunmer. The lizard folk are known for being nearly impervious to poison and disease in the same way Nords can wander around naked in the tundra with no problem.

PlagueMonk · July 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

You have my full support, OP.

Since you already posted everything needed to show that the Argonian passives in ESO do not follow the established lore, I have nothing relevant to add other than my support, really. What annoys me the most is that Argonians don't have a single stealth-related passive.

This is the main thing that has rubbed me wrong for a long while. Literally no other race has more members in the Dark Brotherhood, which I must admit is odd since the night mother is the corpse of a Dunmer chick. The race is known for being full of guile, and skilled at stealth and guerrilla warfare. The ONE thing I would have expected them to excel at and have no one be better at, is stealth. While Khajiit and Bosmer have good reason to be on par, I did not expect the Argonians to be beaten by these two on this front. I'm still annoyed by this fact, and I'll continue to be so. I actually wear blue v12 gear sets while thieving just so it doesn't anger me that I'm not as sneaky as a bosmer.

The second big thing about Argonian attributes that bothers me, is the fact that any race has better health regeneration. I'd love it if they had a health regeneration that scaled up the lower their health were, although I suspect that would be too complicated.

The third issue that bothers me with Argonian attributes is that the magnitude of poison and disease resistance is far too low. It should border 4000 resist at Veteran and be on par with the spell resist of Bretons or the Fire resist of dunmer. The lizard folk are known for being nearly impervious to poison and disease in the same way Nords can wander around naked in the tundra with no problem.

Couldn't agree more. In fact I tried to encompass all of that in this thread

I did have to skimp a bit on the resists because the Gift of the Hist was so good but I feel it gives the race everything is should have.

PlagueMonk · July 2016

oh yeah, gone but not forgotten!

While I won't just /bump this thread all the time, rest assured I will NOT give up [snip] about until Worbel directly replies to the reason WHY Argonian's look nothing like the OPs descriptions (including the ESO website itself no less!)

Also......I would like to know why, when Worbel HIMSELF admitted to the game being more "DPS focused" and giving EVERY RACE a DPS passive, WHY Argonians instead got......better healing? (sorry I don't consider 3% magicka anything more than a tiny, crappy, bone)

If you are going to give every race a DPS passive, that passive should be available to every playstyle and not locked behind resources or a class.

Jar_Ek · July 2016

Look @Wrobel if Argonians were from the start a magicka healer race, then I and alot of shadowscales and other tanks simply would not have chosen to be Argonian. So how about rethinking racials as a whole and starting from scratch... ideally with racial morphs to cover subcultures or gender differences.