Give players racial OPTIONS!

PlagueMonk

I have posted this idea multiple times over the last couple years but feel now, more than ever, with Zenimax trying to once more try to "fix" racials, the time to change the system is now instead of applying a band-aid to an overly simplistic system (a band-aid that might stick for quite a while) that continues to limit freedom of play and punishes those who play against their racials ...

I was thinking about how the current racials in general pigeonhole races into certain classes/builds and think they should be re-tooled instead with options so one could tailor their race to have at least some sync with the class/build they would like to play.

To that end I would like to propose the following (using Argonians as an example):
(I have re-RE-tooled this after much reading of Argonian abilities from past ESO games)

- The first level in all options is FREE. It's what the race is. You don't have to spend points on them, you start with them
- You are then allowed to spend 6 pts on upgrades across the 5 options
- +1 abilities available at lvl 20
- +2 abilities available at lvl 40 (the number 2 shows total investment, so +1 more actual pt)

Gift of the Hist:
(free) Allows Argonians to have any green drink active at the same time as food *
(+1) Allows Argonians to have any blue drink active at the same time as food. *
(+2) Allows Argonians to have any purple drink active at the same time as food. *

* Note....all drinks work at 75% normal effectiveness when used in conjunction with food and you cannot "double-up" on the same stat. If there is crossover, ONLY the highest of the two stats is used.

Mage touched:
(free) Increase max magicka by 3%
(+1) Increase max magicka by 8%
(+2) Increase max magicka by 9%

Amphibian Physiology:
(free) Increases healing received by 4% and increases swimming speed by 50%
(+1) Increases healing received by 7% and health regeneration by 7%.
(+2) Increases healing received by 10% and health regeneration by 14%

Argonian Hardiness:
(free) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 600. Increase Physical Resistance by 400
(+1) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 1200. Increase Physical Resistance by 800. (must be lvl 20 to invest)
(+2) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 2400. Increase Physical Resistance by 1600. (must be 40 to invest)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise:
(free) Increases speed while stealthed by 7% and melee attacks from stealth do +3% damage
(+1) Increases speed while stealthed by 14% and melee attacks from stealth do +6% damage
(+2) Increases speed while stealthed by 21% and melee attacks from stealth do +9% damage

*** Edit (changed the stealth info from stamina to ALL attacks so melee magicka can also benefit from it)

Explanations:
Gift of the Hist - Some might think," WHOA thats some big ability......OPed!" Well yes is a nice ability BUT it does come with a price. It is the only ability that requires you to spend resources. No drink, no bonus. Unlike the previous potion passive however it is on until the drink wears off but does compensate us for the fact it costs Argonians money / time to keep that ability going.

Mage Touched - Argonians have an affinity for magic. Not as good as Altmer's of Bretons but still something to make any magicka player happy.

Amphibian Physiology - This represents Argonian love of the water and faster healing.

Argonian Hardiness - Represents an Argonians thick, scaly skin and their resistance to disease and poisons (from living in the swamps)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise - And last but not least......gives those Shadowsacle players a reason why Argonians are renowned assassins.


Now THESE truly represent Argonian lore.

I only wrote up the Argonians because I'm pretty involved with them but This could just a s easily be created for every race. So a Nord can play a mage and not feel completely gimped or an Altmer a Stamina playstyle and be at least competent.

ThisIsAKnife

I choose to hate argonians

Personofsecrets

Awesome idea.

Lord_Eomer

I am tired of these racial specific passives,

There should be no greed on choosing race except I like Bosmer, yes whatever I like I should play with.

After selecting race, I should be able to choose tgree different Paasives from different pools. I.e
1. Damage Paaaives
2. Max attributes passives
3. Defence / recovery Passives

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_KaiSchober Let the player choose what they want, do not force them as currently.

Players will be always unhappy over min/max for their favourite race and this way developers may always found unhappy customers..

Vruci

Cool idea- but folks will always complain no matter what :P

newtinmpls

Hmmm......I'm thinking.....

Vangy

Nice idea....

but...

Gift of the Hist:
(free) Allows Argonians to have any green drink active at the same time as food
(+1) Allows Argonians to have any blue drink active at the same time as food.
(+2) Allows Argonians to have any purple drink active at the same time as food.

Ridiculously OP lol..... I can imagine orgoza's golden food + a blue drink for dual stat recovery insanity..... And what cost lol? Even with a basic purple food + blue drink its still ridiculously OP and purple food and blue drinks cost nothing lol. Most long term players like myself have lik 6 toons with 30+ writs being done a day.....

tinythinker

Did someone mention options for racial passives?

CasNation

Hmm. This actually an interesting idea. While I don't agree with your examples necessarily (and accept that they are just for demonstration), it is a far better idea than the "let's all just have a pool of traits to pick from for all races" which I think is crap.

Kalifas

Here is what I would like to see.

Racial Passives with certain passives select-able

Barlthump

Interesting post...... "Gift of the hist"...... Nope nope nope, purple food and drinks cost what? 2k on GH? Guild mates do it for free. Do you even understand how insane that is, I could push 3k regen with just orsinium food and and blue drinks. But yes I do like the idea of giving players a racial tree, they can choose whether they wanna be tanks, heals, or dps

Taleof2Cities

Vruci wrote: »

Cool idea- but folks will always complain no matter what :P

Pretty much this ...

PlagueMonk

Vangy wrote: »

Nice idea....

but...

Gift of the Hist:
(free) Allows Argonians to have any green drink active at the same time as food
(+1) Allows Argonians to have any blue drink active at the same time as food.
(+2) Allows Argonians to have any purple drink active at the same time as food.

Ridiculously OP lol..... I can imagine orgoza's golden food + a blue drink for dual stat recovery insanity..... And what cost lol? Even with a basic purple food + blue drink its still ridiculously OP and purple food and blue drinks cost nothing lol. Most long term players like myself have lik 6 toons with 30+ writs being done a day.....

Barlthump wrote: »

Interesting post...... "Gift of the hist"...... Nope nope nope, purple food and drinks cost what? 2k on GH? Guild mates do it for free. Do you even understand how insane that is, I could push 3k regen with just orsinium food and and blue drinks. But yes I do like the idea of giving players a racial tree, they can choose whether they wanna be tanks, heals, or dps

Hummmm, I had forgotten that the new gold food has some recovery crossovers. That was not my intention so I added a qualifier just for you two and decreased effectiveness by 25%.

As for saying that it would cost "nothing", I call complete BS. Sure a guildie might float you a couple drinks/food here or there but if all you are doing is mooching off others, your "guildies" will eventually tell you to take a hike and go get your own damn resources. Don't wear out your welcome.

Personally maintaining decent potions, drinks and food is neither a "free" or even cheap process. If a race is to have a racial bonus tied to a resource, that race should be rewarded becasue they have to put forth extra effort, time, money to get/maintain said bonus. All other races get access to their racials 24/7, rain or shine, ready or not. When your Bosmer racials require you to use expendable arrows or your Altmer has to drink a special magic concoction every 15 mins to get their max magicka, THEN we will talk.

PlagueMonk

Kalifas wrote: »

Here is what I would like to see.

Racial Passives with certain passives select-able

An alternative to be sure but I have a few problems with it:

- As far as Argonians go, the racials make no sense. All you did was work with what the current racials are.

- It's an extremely complex/convoluted system in comparison to mine. I am striving for more complex than what we currently have but still simple enough to be readily understandable.

- You shouldn't be able to change your racial abilities basically on the fly. There needs to be a certain level of committment and penalty if you want to change things.

STEVIL

You know what, i am of two minds.

Part of me (RP) says i want race choice to be purely cosmetic, so that race LIKE FACTION has not minmax implications and can be made based on preference without regard to performance considerations.
Part of me says (RP) there should be practical differences between cat-people, lizard people, arctic dwellers, desert dwellers and elves of varying stripes or spots.

Then again, also...

Part of me (GAMER) thinks its good to have tough choices, meaningful choices and having races which aren't all "the same" in the end result including having some better for magica and others better for stamina, or some better at sustain while others better at burst, etc - makes for meaningful choices.

So, maybe an option that could be explored is the "Abberant" Race.

ABBERANT GENERICA RACE TYPE:
Choose any other race.
gain only their cosmetic passive like swim speed, lava resist, etc (may need to tweak some.)
Gain a very generic gain to magica, stamina, health, as well as their recoveries as the passive tree which "as a whole" are more than you get in any other racial set BUT are not better in any given role than any other racial set. (Think like the diff between purple food and blue food...) Enough across the board to make you still in the ballpark as far as minmax competitive especially if you can use all of everything but never gonna be BIS at one specific thing.

This way, someone who wants a "true khajit" can take the khajiit package and if they want to minmax its stamina and crits - go for it.

but someone who wants a khajiit mage can do that too and with the AG can be at least in the ballpark of competitive, enough that skill will still out.

Obviously specific values have to be worked out but it could be as simple as
passive-1 cosmetic with X% training boost (much lower than the ones for a weapon type or armor type)
passive-2 health and health rec A-B-C%
passive-3 stamrec-magrec A-B-C%
passive-4 maxsta-maxmag A-B-C%

just brainstorming...

Kalifas

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

Here is what I would like to see.

Racial Passives with certain passives select-able

An alternative to be sure but I have a few problems with it:

- As far as Argonians go, the racials make no sense. All you did was work with what the current racials are.

- It's an extremely complex/convoluted system in comparison to mine. I am striving for more complex than what we currently have but still simple enough to be readily understandable.

- You shouldn't be able to change your racial abilities basically on the fly. There needs to be a certain level of committment and penalty if you want to change things.

What part of Argonian doesn't make sense? It is based roughly around what ZoS already has.

I don't think it is complex at all.

1.You pick a racial passive set you cannot change. These are race specific systems that no other races can access, so every race isn't the same


2.Select a one dynamic stance modifier if you want to change how the character plays to suit a build without stealth.
These are party role systems that all races can access

1. Defiant- Tank(Playstyle demands agrro to maximize damage)
2. Mender-Healer(Playstyle demands keeping agrro to minimum to maximize healing)
3. Instigator- DPS Damage over time master(Playstyle demands getting in fire to maximize damage)
4. Inert- Burst DPS Damage specialization (Playstyle demands standing still for moments to maximize damage)
5. Enraged- DPS(Playstyle allows you to dictate more damage/more incoming damage or less damage/less incoming damage)
6. Energetic-DPS(Playstyle allows you to dictate crit up/less incoming damage or crit down/ more incoming damage)
7. Swift Warrior-DPS(Playstyle allows you to do damage without worrying about situationals)

Or 2. Select a one dynamic stealth modifier if you want to change how the character plays to suit a build with stealth.
These are party role systems that all races can access

1. Lurker-DPS (Ranged Critical Dmg when playing at max distance stealthed)
2. Stealthy-DPS( Melee Crit dmg when playing stealthed up close)
3. ShadowScourge-DPS(Dot Master when stealthed)
4. ShadowBurst-DPS (Burst Damage master while stealthed)
5. ShadowScaleTank/DPS(Magical tank playing with stealth)
6. ShadowMender-Healer(Healing over time master while stealthed)

3.Select a Dynamic Support Modifier These are party support systems that all races can access

• Edge Has a 10% chance to decrease an enemies resistance to physical criticals by 2/4/6% with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Edge will increase allies in party weapon critical rate by 1/2/3% when Edge procs.
• Rot Has a 10% chance to decrease an enemies resistance to magical criticals by 2/4/6/% with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Edge will increase allies in party spell critical rate by 1/2/3% when Rot procs.
• Sunder Has a 10% chance to disorient an enemy with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Sunder will increase allies in party melee weapon damage by 1/2/3% when Sunder procs.
• Wit Has a 10% chance to restore 24/48/72 Magicka to player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can happen no more than once every 5 seconds. Wit will restore 24/48/72 magicka to any allies in party as well when Wit procs.
• Adrenaline Rush Has a 10% chance to restore 24/48/72 Stamina to player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can happen no more than once every 5 seconds. Adrenaline Rush will restore 24/48/72 stamina to any allies in party as well when Adrenaline Rush procs.
• Red Diamond Melee attacks Has a 30% chance to restore 64/128/192 Health. Red Diamond Melee Attacks will restore 64/128/192 health to allies in party as well when it procs.

4.Select one Personality Specialization. These are party support systems that all races can access

• Assassin Critical hit rate increased by 1%.
• Heavy-Hearted Healing Received increased by 1%.
• Generous Healing done increased by 1%.
• Playful Sprint Speed increased by 1%.
• Reserved Incoming damage reduced by 1%.
• Candid Outgoing damage increased by 1%.
• Spunk Health recovery increased by 1%.
• Curious Magicka recovery increased by 1%
• Pumped Stamina recovery increased by 1%.
• Awake Max health increased by 1%.
• Drowsy Max magicka increased by 1%
• Antsy Max stamina increased by 1%

.

TLDR: Most suggestion I read are either make each race more unique or let everyone pick and choose every aspect. But none really change the way the game is played mechanically except for numbers. The argument is never why doesn't my character play differently from another one but why can't I do the same thing he is doing as good, why is his race better doing the same thing. I am suggesting not only numbers but a subtle difference in how each character plays moment to moment depending on situations.

So to achieve that, some things are change-able on the fly outside combat, the modifiers and personality.
But racial unique-ness is maintained with the racial passive locked in.

Kronuxx

.

PlagueMonk

Kalifas wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

Here is what I would like to see.

Racial Passives with certain passives select-able

An alternative to be sure but I have a few problems with it:

- As far as Argonians go, the racials make no sense. All you did was work with what the current racials are.

- It's an extremely complex/convoluted system in comparison to mine. I am striving for more complex than what we currently have but still simple enough to be readily understandable.

- You shouldn't be able to change your racial abilities basically on the fly. There needs to be a certain level of committment and penalty if you want to change things.

What part of Argonian doesn't make sense? It is based roughly around what ZoS already has.

Ah yes herein lies the first problem. You use what Zenimax gave you but that really does NOT fit what Argonians should have. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid they are giving you and think for yourself.

If you want a comprehensive listing I did of all Argonian descriptions i could find from all previous games look here Nothing has been made up and all I did was cut and paste literally everything I could find, good or bad. Once you go read that and return, please tell me where it says Argonians should have more health and be the supposed best healers in the game (even though this has been proven to not be true either)

And just a little recap:

Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers.

That was copied DIRECTLY from the ESO site. I see magic stealth and subtle blades, and guerilla warfare EXPERTS. Again not a lick about being ESOs great healing race.

I don't think it is complex at all.

1.You pick a racial passive set you cannot change. These are race specific systems that no other races can access, so every race isn't the same


2.Select a one dynamic stance modifier if you want to change how the character plays to suit a build without stealth.
These are party role systems that all races can access

1. Defiant- Tank(Playstyle demands agrro to maximize damage)
2. Mender-Healer(Playstyle demands keeping agrro to minimum to maximize healing)
3. Instigator- DPS Damage over time master(Playstyle demands getting in fire to maximize damage)
4. Inert- Burst DPS Damage specialization (Playstyle demands standing still for moments to maximize damage)
5. Enraged- DPS(Playstyle allows you to dictate more damage/more incoming damage or less damage/less incoming damage)
6. Energetic-DPS(Playstyle allows you to dictate crit up/less incoming damage or crit down/ more incoming damage)
7. Swift Warrior-DPS(Playstyle allows you to do damage without worrying about situationals)

Or 2. Select a one dynamic stealth modifier if you want to change how the character plays to suit a build with stealth.
These are party role systems that all races can access

1. Lurker-DPS (Ranged Critical Dmg when playing at max distance stealthed)
2. Stealthy-DPS( Melee Crit dmg when playing stealthed up close)
3. ShadowScourge-DPS(Dot Master when stealthed)
4. ShadowBurst-DPS (Burst Damage master while stealthed)
5. ShadowScaleTank/DPS(Magical tank playing with stealth)
6. ShadowMender-Healer(Healing over time master while stealthed)

3.Select a Dynamic Support Modifier These are party support systems that all races can access

• Edge Has a 10% chance to decrease an enemies resistance to physical criticals by 2/4/6% with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Edge will increase allies in party weapon critical rate by 1/2/3% when Edge procs.
• Rot Has a 10% chance to decrease an enemies resistance to magical criticals by 2/4/6/% with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Edge will increase allies in party spell critical rate by 1/2/3% when Rot procs.
• Sunder Has a 10% chance to disorient an enemy with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Sunder will increase allies in party melee weapon damage by 1/2/3% when Sunder procs.
• Wit Has a 10% chance to restore 24/48/72 Magicka to player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can happen no more than once every 5 seconds. Wit will restore 24/48/72 magicka to any allies in party as well when Wit procs.
• Adrenaline Rush Has a 10% chance to restore 24/48/72 Stamina to player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can happen no more than once every 5 seconds. Adrenaline Rush will restore 24/48/72 stamina to any allies in party as well when Adrenaline Rush procs.
• Red Diamond Melee attacks Has a 30% chance to restore 64/128/192 Health. Red Diamond Melee Attacks will restore 64/128/192 health to allies in party as well when it procs.

4.Select one Personality Specialization. These are party support systems that all races can access

• Assassin Critical hit rate increased by 1%.
• Heavy-Hearted Healing Received increased by 1%.
• Generous Healing done increased by 1%.
• Playful Sprint Speed increased by 1%.
• Reserved Incoming damage reduced by 1%.
• Candid Outgoing damage increased by 1%.
• Spunk Health recovery increased by 1%.
• Curious Magicka recovery increased by 1%
• Pumped Stamina recovery increased by 1%.
• Awake Max health increased by 1%.
• Drowsy Max magicka increased by 1%
• Antsy Max stamina increased by 1%

.

TLDR: Most suggestion I read are either make each race more unique or let everyone pick and choose every aspect. But none really change the way the game is played mechanically except for numbers. The argument is never why doesn't my character play differently from another one but why can't I do the same thing he is doing as good, why is his race better doing the same thing. I am suggesting not only numbers but a subtle difference in how each character plays moment to moment depending on situations.

So to achieve that, some things are change-able on the fly outside combat, the modifiers and personality.
But racial unique-ness is maintained with the racial passive locked in.

I'm sure you don't think so but you made it so forgive me but I think you are a bit biased.

And yes, I read that before and all it does it prove my point. It's overly complex/ too many options and requires you to deal with FOUR separate sets of skills some of which you can change on the fly?

Two other points:
a) You have diluted the uniqueness of each "race" with class abilities. Sure you get your "racial" set but beyond that ALL tanks will take the same skills, ALL the NBs will take the same passives, etc.
b) It's all free. Zenimax wants you to spend those skill points.

This is of course my opinion.

Van_0S

This thread reminds me of morrowind, when I have to choose a class based on some quizz.

https://youtu.be/e-BB06j7Vxw

Kalifas

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Kalifas wrote: »

Here is what I would like to see.

Racial Passives with certain passives select-able

An alternative to be sure but I have a few problems with it:

- As far as Argonians go, the racials make no sense. All you did was work with what the current racials are.

- It's an extremely complex/convoluted system in comparison to mine. I am striving for more complex than what we currently have but still simple enough to be readily understandable.

- You shouldn't be able to change your racial abilities basically on the fly. There needs to be a certain level of committment and penalty if you want to change things.

What part of Argonian doesn't make sense? It is based roughly around what ZoS already has.

Ah yes herein lies the first problem. You use what Zenimax gave you but that really does NOT fit what Argonians should have. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid they are giving you and think for yourself.

If you want a comprehensive listing I did of all Argonian descriptions i could find from all previous games look here Nothing has been made up and all I did was cut and paste literally everything I could find, good or bad. Once you go read that and return, please tell me where it says Argonians should have more health and be the supposed best healers in the game (even though this has been proven to not be true either)

And just a little recap:

Well-versed in the use of magic, stealth, and subtle blades, the Argonians of Black Marsh are mysterious and hard to read. Experts at guerilla warfare, they often serve as scouts and skirmishers. Only they truly know the reason they’ve joined forces with the Dark Elves, their ex-slavers.

That was copied DIRECTLY from the ESO site. I see magic stealth and subtle blades, and guerilla warfare EXPERTS. Again not a lick about being ESOs great healing race.

I don't think it is complex at all.

1.You pick a racial passive set you cannot change. These are race specific systems that no other races can access, so every race isn't the same


2.Select a one dynamic stance modifier if you want to change how the character plays to suit a build without stealth.
These are party role systems that all races can access

1. Defiant- Tank(Playstyle demands agrro to maximize damage)
2. Mender-Healer(Playstyle demands keeping agrro to minimum to maximize healing)
3. Instigator- DPS Damage over time master(Playstyle demands getting in fire to maximize damage)
4. Inert- Burst DPS Damage specialization (Playstyle demands standing still for moments to maximize damage)
5. Enraged- DPS(Playstyle allows you to dictate more damage/more incoming damage or less damage/less incoming damage)
6. Energetic-DPS(Playstyle allows you to dictate crit up/less incoming damage or crit down/ more incoming damage)
7. Swift Warrior-DPS(Playstyle allows you to do damage without worrying about situationals)

Or 2. Select a one dynamic stealth modifier if you want to change how the character plays to suit a build with stealth.
These are party role systems that all races can access

1. Lurker-DPS (Ranged Critical Dmg when playing at max distance stealthed)
2. Stealthy-DPS( Melee Crit dmg when playing stealthed up close)
3. ShadowScourge-DPS(Dot Master when stealthed)
4. ShadowBurst-DPS (Burst Damage master while stealthed)
5. ShadowScaleTank/DPS(Magical tank playing with stealth)
6. ShadowMender-Healer(Healing over time master while stealthed)

3.Select a Dynamic Support Modifier These are party support systems that all races can access

• Edge Has a 10% chance to decrease an enemies resistance to physical criticals by 2/4/6% with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Edge will increase allies in party weapon critical rate by 1/2/3% when Edge procs.
• Rot Has a 10% chance to decrease an enemies resistance to magical criticals by 2/4/6/% with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Edge will increase allies in party spell critical rate by 1/2/3% when Rot procs.
• Sunder Has a 10% chance to disorient an enemy with a melee attack. This can only happen every 10 seconds. Sunder will increase allies in party melee weapon damage by 1/2/3% when Sunder procs.
• Wit Has a 10% chance to restore 24/48/72 Magicka to player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can happen no more than once every 5 seconds. Wit will restore 24/48/72 magicka to any allies in party as well when Wit procs.
• Adrenaline Rush Has a 10% chance to restore 24/48/72 Stamina to player when damaging an enemy with a Melee attack. This can happen no more than once every 5 seconds. Adrenaline Rush will restore 24/48/72 stamina to any allies in party as well when Adrenaline Rush procs.
• Red Diamond Melee attacks Has a 30% chance to restore 64/128/192 Health. Red Diamond Melee Attacks will restore 64/128/192 health to allies in party as well when it procs.

4.Select one Personality Specialization. These are party support systems that all races can access

• Assassin Critical hit rate increased by 1%.
• Heavy-Hearted Healing Received increased by 1%.
• Generous Healing done increased by 1%.
• Playful Sprint Speed increased by 1%.
• Reserved Incoming damage reduced by 1%.
• Candid Outgoing damage increased by 1%.
• Spunk Health recovery increased by 1%.
• Curious Magicka recovery increased by 1%
• Pumped Stamina recovery increased by 1%.
• Awake Max health increased by 1%.
• Drowsy Max magicka increased by 1%
• Antsy Max stamina increased by 1%

.

TLDR: Most suggestion I read are either make each race more unique or let everyone pick and choose every aspect. But none really change the way the game is played mechanically except for numbers. The argument is never why doesn't my character play differently from another one but why can't I do the same thing he is doing as good, why is his race better doing the same thing. I am suggesting not only numbers but a subtle difference in how each character plays moment to moment depending on situations.

So to achieve that, some things are change-able on the fly outside combat, the modifiers and personality.
But racial unique-ness is maintained with the racial passive locked in.

I'm sure you don't think so but you made it so forgive me but I think you are a bit biased.

And yes, I read that before and all it does it prove my point. It's overly complex/ too many options and requires you to deal with FOUR separate sets of skills some of which you can change on the fly?

Two other points:
a) You have diluted the uniqueness of each "race" with class abilities. Sure you get your "racial" set but beyond that ALL tanks will take the same skills, ALL the NBs will take the same passives, etc.
b) It's all free. Zenimax wants you to spend those skill points.

This is of course my opinion.

So here is a brief summary of what Argonians "should" be good at/have according to your link:

- breathe underwater
- natural immunities to the diseases and poisons
- possess a thick scaly hide
- known for their intelligence, agility, and speed
- swim faster than any other race
- adept at any art involving the arcane, or involving thievery and sleight of hand
- Renowned Shadowscales, assassins, Witchhunters, skirmishers, thieves, scouts, and ambushers, NIGHTBLADES
- foremost experts in guerrilla warfare
- Then there are other things not mentioned like the Hist abilities

1. Argonians can't breathe underwater but there is no point in that currently since there is no underwater created content.
2. Argonians got the disease and poison resistances.
3. Add a little Physical Resistance to Amphibian and that is fixed.
4. My idea for stealth and stance modifers could very easily cover the lore of intelligence, agility, and speed allowing Argonian to play that style.
5. They can swim faster than any race.
6. I would classify any play on stealth guerilla warfare especially in swampy areas or arcane wit the stealth or stance modifier.
7. Also other than maybe witchhunter, every class type listed at least gameplay wise exist in my modifiers.
8. Stealth,speed,and agility is also present in my dynamic stance and stealth modifiers.
9. Restricting full armor from Argonian would make Argonians less versatile than other races.
10. My dynamic stealth and stance modifiers also provide a way for Argonian to play battlemage or scout.

Your Two other points:
a) You have diluted the uniqueness of each "race" with class abilities. Sure you get your "racial" set but beyond that ALL tanks will take the same skills, ALL the NBs will take the same passives, etc.
b) It's all free. Zenimax wants you to spend those skill points.

A)No, I added some definitive "roles" for party play which this game doesn't really define clearly. Class abilities would be if I added new skills to DK, NB, Templar, or Sorceror. I added no class locked skills. The passive modifiers are still racial skills, just not locked to one race.

All tanks use the same skills now, all NBs take the same passives now, the only difference is magicka or stamina based. With my system most of those true Argonian lore you quoted are playable in some form with my selective passives as the playstyle you described.

Classes will stay play the same way. With the caveat that they are not locked into one role or one dynamic playstyle.

These I listed are not just passive numbers or flavor, they actually change how A DragonKnight will tank.

Will he be a:

Stance tank
Stealth tank

Will the Argonian be a:

• Stealth ranged
• Stealthed close quarters
• Stealthed magic damage tanking class
• Stealthed burst class
• Stealthed master of dots
• Stealthed master of Hots guerilla warfaring psycho

or will he be a:

1. Stance TankPlaystyle demands agrro to maximize damage)
2. Stance HealerPlaystyle demands keeping agrro to minimum to maximize healing)
3. Stance Damage over time masterPlaystyle demands getting in fire to maximize damage)
4. Stance Burst Damage specializationPlaystyle demands standing still for moments to maximize damage)
5. Stance DPSPlaystyle allows you to dictate more damage/more incoming damage or less damage/less incoming damage)
6. Stance DPSPlaystyle allows you to dictate crit up/less incoming damage or crit down/ more incoming damage)
7. Stance DPSPlaystyle allows you to do damage without worrying about situationals)

The Support modifier adds even more party dynamics as in your attacks have a chance to trigger party wide buffs as a DPS, Healer, or Tank.

Right now it is just Magicka Tank/Stamina Tank, Magicka DPS/ Stamina DPS, Magicka Healer/ Stamina Healer who happens to use some form of damage such as spike, hot, dot, ranged, etc. 1-3 top races in magicka roles and 1-3 top races in stamina roles, everyone else is in between and most races usually sucking at every other playstyle besides the one they are strong in.

On the complex statement. You don't choose 4 only three.

1. The 1st racial passive is locked to provide some meaning to choosing a race.
2. Choose one out of one or the other only from Stealth or Stance.
3. Choose on from the support modifier.
4. Choose one personality.

This is of course my opinion. Not meant to sound anyway other than explaining what I meant.

PlagueMonk

Kalifas wrote: »

TLDR: Most suggestion I read are either make each race more unique or let everyone pick and choose every aspect. But none really change the way the game is played mechanically except for numbers. The argument is never why doesn't my character play differently from another one but why can't I do the same thing he is doing as good, why is his race better doing the same thing. I am suggesting not only numbers but a subtle difference in how each character plays moment to moment depending on situations.

So to achieve that, some things are change-able on the fly outside combat, the modifiers and personality.
But racial unique-ness is maintained with the racial passive locked in.

And there is your base problem, over and above everything else.......you are trying to change the was the base mechanics of the game work. That imho is WAY too far reaching and requires too much effort to change and keep things balanced.

My system yes, fits within the parameters of current system but I did that on purpose. It would be a large enough change that it would give each race options, but small enough that it doesn't require complex retooling of the game mechanics.

So here is a brief summary of what Argonians "should" be good at/have according to your link:

- breathe underwater
- natural immunities to the diseases and poisons
- possess a thick scaly hide
- known for their intelligence, agility, and speed
- swim faster than any other race
- adept at any art involving the arcane, or involving thievery and sleight of hand
- Renowned Shadowscales, assassins, Witchhunters, skirmishers, thieves, scouts, and ambushers, NIGHTBLADES
- foremost experts in guerrilla warfare
- Then there are other things not mentioned like the Hist abilities

1. Argonians can't breathe underwater but there is no point in that currently since there is no underwater created content.
2. Argonians got the disease and poison resistances.
3. Add a little Physical Resistance to Amphibian and that is fixed.
4. My idea for stealth and stance modifers could very easily cover the lore of intelligence, agility, and speed allowing Argonian to play that style.
5. They can swim faster than any race.
6. I would classify any play on stealth guerilla warfare especially in swampy areas or arcane wit the stealth or stance modifier.
7. Also other than maybe witchhunter, every class type listed at least gameplay wise exist in my modifiers.
8. Stealth,speed,and agility is also present in my dynamic stance and stealth modifiers.
9. Restricting full armor from Argonian would make Argonians less versatile than other races.
10. My dynamic stealth and stance modifiers also provide a way for Argonian to play battlemage or scout.

HA, you stole from my other thread. In so doing you should also know I already addressed your dissenting points:

And I quote: "Some of these are also infeasible like underwater breathing (since ESO has no blow the water content) but others could easily be represented."

As for physical resistance, um its in my OP up there as an option as is poison/disease resist still

And your modifiers would basically make everything the same. I do like having uniqueness so giving everyone basically the same skills makes everyone generic. Having every NB using the same skills I would choose if I tried replicating a Shadowscale is the exact opposite of unique.

Your Two other points:
a) You have diluted the uniqueness of each "race" with class abilities. Sure you get your "racial" set but beyond that ALL tanks will take the same skills, ALL the NBs will take the same passives, etc.
b) It's all free. Zenimax wants you to spend those skill points.

A)No, I added some definitive "roles" for party play which this game doesn't really define clearly. Class abilities would be if I added new skills to DK, NB, Templar, or Sorceror. I added no class locked skills. The passive modifiers are still racial skills, just not locked to one race.

All tanks use the same skills now, all NBs take the same passives now, the only difference is magicka or stamina based. With my system most of those true Argonian lore you quoted are playable in some form with my selective passives as the playstyle you described.


On the complex statement. You don't choose 4 only three.

1. The 1st racial passive is locked to provide some meaning to choosing a race.
2. Choose one out of one or the other only from Stealth or Stance.
3. Choose on from the support modifier.
4. Choose one personality.

[/color]

lol, each race gets the same things? Don't you see you've just taken the ESO flawed system and only made it more complex? If those racials suck, people will not play the race! That's the same damn problem the current system suffers from, having everyone bicker about how their static set of racials is inadequate compared with other races.

Again my system provides each player with racial OPTIONS that can be tuned to different roles or playstyles.

You also didn't address everyone getting these abilities for free. This once more falls into the category of changes that are too sweeping in scope and require re-tooling the game mechanics.

dodgehopper_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

Did someone mention options for racial passives?

You guys both have interesting ideas here, painted in broad strokes that is.

Kalifas

PlagueMonk wrote:

And there is your base problem, over and above everything else.......you are trying to change the was the base mechanics of the game work. That imho is WAY too far reaching and requires too much effort to change and keep things balanced.

My system yes, fits within the parameters of current system but I did that on purpose. It would be a large enough change that it would give each race options, but small enough that it doesn't require complex retooling of the game mechanics.

I change no base mechanics here. Stealth already exist, stances already exist. All I do is add different ways to manipulate what already exist in game, manipulations that result in each race playing differently even though the base mechanics stay.

Your options are just more of the same. As long as all passives remain locked to one character or race, any play at giving more options will still end up being one race is quite stronger than the other at certain things.

PlagueMonk wrote:

HA, you stole from my other thread. In so doing you should also know I already addressed your dissenting points:

And I quote: "Some of these are also infeasible like underwater breathing (since ESO has no blow the water content) but others could easily be represented."

As for physical resistance, um its in my OP up there as an option as is poison/disease resist still

And your modifiers would basically make everything the same. I do like having uniqueness so giving everyone basically the same skills makes everyone generic. Having every NB using the same skills I would choose if I tried replicating a Shadowscale is the exact opposite of unique.

Yeah? I added not only a physical resistance but a magical resistance as well in mine.

No, your idea make everything the same. Because it doesn't change the fundamental mechanics in playstyle depending on roles or builds. In your idea, everyone still plays the exact same way. Some races will still be unbalanced to others. All your idea does is give some extra numbers to a role, no different than a class tree actually. Yours is like a class tree while my idea works as a mechanics line.

Right now, everyone has the same skills and nothing you wrote brings new skills to the table just more numbers so it's generic. My idea doesn't bring new skills to the table either. But at least mine changes the fundamental mechanics of how different races play within the the game rules such as stances and stealth. I added more ways to create different playstyles. A close quarter stealth modifier would play nothing like a far range stealth modifier or a stance critical damage modifier.

Again, most shadowscale components can be given in my locked racial passives with water affinity, rough skin, potion boons, and guerilla warfare can be acquired through modifier.So if you think allowing other races to play stealth but not having the Argonian boons I described, I don't know what to tell you.

PlagueMonk wrote:

lol, each race gets the same things? Don't you see you've just taken the ESO flawed system and only made it more complex? If those racials suck, people will not play the race! That's the same damn problem the current system suffers from, having everyone bicker about how their static set of racials is inadequate compared with other races.

Again my system provides each player with racial OPTIONS that can be tuned to different roles or playstyles.

You also didn't address everyone getting these abilities for free. This once more falls into the category of changes that are too sweeping in scope and require re-tooling the game mechanics.

No, as I said I added no new things. If the current locked racials suck, that is on the hands of Mr. Wrobel. And I am not saying all of them do.People still play any race, as they do now. It is the min/maxers who avoid any race that isn't flavor of the month.
All I added was the way the game plays using what is already there.

You see, regardless of how many times passives are buffed or nerfed or If ZoS implemented everything you want. Some race will be better than some other races by numbers. Locked racials with modifiers at least allows an inferior race to become more competent in builds they lack in.

What is wrong with getting different stances or playstyles for free? I am not changing the raw numbers which are earned by choosing a race, choosing a class, or choosing a build. With modifiers an average player can customize, they might be able to experiment more with builds in different roles and be pretty effective. The min/maxer will still rule if they go with the best race for build and apply the modifiers but everyone one else can experiment and be better than they were without them. I'd hate for someone to get bored 200 hours into a character they thought they like but then had a change of heart. And now the only option would be re-roll or pay for race change.

PlagueMonk wrote:

I was thinking about how the current racials in general pigeonhole races into certain classes/builds and think they should be re-tooled instead with options so one could tailor their race to have at least some sync with the class/build they would like to play.

To that end I would like to propose the following (using Argonians as an example):
(I have re-RE-tooled this after much reading of Argonian abilities from past ESO games)

- The first level in all options is FREE. It's what the race is. You don't have to spend points on them, you start with them
- You are then allowed to spend 6 pts on upgrades across the 5 options
- +1 abilities available at lvl 20
- +2 abilities available at lvl 40 (the number 2 shows total investment, so +1 more actual pt)

Gift of the Hist:
(free) Allows Argonians to have any green drink active at the same time as food *
(+1) Allows Argonians to have any blue drink active at the same time as food. *
(+2) Allows Argonians to have any purple drink active at the same time as food. *

* Note....all drinks work at 75% normal effectiveness when used in conjunction with food and you cannot "double-up" on the same stat. If there is crossover, ONLY the highest of the two stats is used.

Mage touched:
(free) Increase max magicka by 3%
(+1) Increase max magicka by 5%
(+2) Increase max magicka by 7%

Amphibian Physiology:
(free) Increases healing received by 4% and increases swimming speed by 50%
(+1) Increases healing received by 7% and health regeneration by 7%.
(+2) Increases healing received by 10% and health regeneration by 14%

Argonian Hardiness:
(free) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 600. Increase Physical Resistance by 400
(+1) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 1200. Increase Physical Resistance by 800. (must be lvl 20 to invest)
(+2) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 2400. Increase Physical Resistance by 1600. (must be 40 to invest)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise:
(free) Increases speed while stealthed by 7%
(+1) Increases speed while stealthed by 14% and stamina/melee attacks from stealth do +3% damage
(+2) Increases speed while stealthed by 21% and stamina/melee attacks from stealth do +6% damage

Explanations:
Gift of the Hist - Some might think," WHOA thats some big ability......OPed!" Well yes is a nice ability BUT it does come with a price. It is the only ability that requires you to spend resources. No drink, no bonus. Unlike the previous potion passive however it is on until the drink wears off but does compensate us for the fact it costs Argonians money / time to keep that ability going.

Mage Touched - Argonians have an affinity for magic. Not as good as Altmer's of Bretons but still something to make any magicka player happy.

Amphibian Physiology - This represents Argonian love of the water and faster healing.

Argonian Hardiness - Represents an Argonians thick, scaly skin and their resistance to disease and poisons (from living in the swamps)

Guerrilla Warfare Expertise - And last but not least......gives those Shadowsacle players a reason why Argonians are renowned assassins.


Now THESE truly represent Argonian lore.

I only wrote up the Argonians because I'm pretty involved with them but This could just a s easily be created for every race. So a Nord can play a mage and not feel completely gimped or an Altmer a Stamina playstyle and be at least competent.

Your Argonian Build:
Base:

• (free) Allows Argonians to have any green drink active at the same time as food *
• (free) Increase max magicka by 3%
• (free) Increases healing received by 4% and increases swimming speed by 50%
• (free) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 600. Increase Physical Resistance by 400
• (free) Increases speed while stealthed by 7%

Healer option? Max Magicka and Potions? Maybe Healing Received/Health Recovery? 6 Points
Tank Option?Healing Received/Health Recovery? Poison/Disease/Physical Resist? Max Magicka? 6 points
Stamina DPS? Guerilla expertise? Physiology?Potions? 6 points

You would still be inferior to magically strong races for healer or magicka DPS unless ZoS screwed them over to get your Argonian passives.

You would still be inferior to RedGuard or Nord for tanking unless ZoS screwed them over to get your Argonian passives.

You would still be inferior to some other race in healing that gets the healing done omitted here to get your Argonian passive.

You would still be inferior to Khajit Or Bosmer for Stamina DPS, unless ZoS screwed them over to get your Argonian passive.

The only role Argonian would be considered to be one of the best would be Assassin style DPS with your idea and even then you would be sub-par to a Khajit or Bosmer in Stamina DPS or a Altmer or Dunmer Or Breton in Magicka DPS because stamina/magicka is the major defining damage attributes in this game which your Argonian is now severely at a disadvantage to the above races.

Lastly, your free passives allow a race to build towards a role. But if every race has to be different then who gets the strongest free passives in certain builds? If all the free passives start off similar in numbers to allow different roles to be play on each race. Then the purpose of races is nothing more than flavor, generic, something I don't want to be a part of.

TLDR:

• In my system each race is still strong at certain things over others but locked racials still could use a bit of balancing.
• If someone who cares about being a best at a particular role, or one thing, they might pick the best race for that and the best modifiers for that.
• But if someone who is happy with their racial passives but doesn't want to min/max in on playstyle. My Modifiers provide an avenue for them to experiment with different Dynamics, Stances, Supports, and Personalities to overcome some of that gap that exist due to the nature of race passives.

Your idea mostly only affects your character and their role solely. My idea affects your character, your race, your class, your role in a party, and the dynamics of how you interact with other people. This is applied specific to you and affects every aspect of your character and how the world sees them.

PlagueMonk

Kalifas wrote: »

Way too much crap

Don't like my opinion? Great, but your system is WAY too damn complex for it's own good and trying to integrate it into ESO would require some major re-tooling to make sure things were "balanced". Your idea fits Rift a lot better than it would here.

My idea while yes, doesn't give players NEARLY the options you do, it IS much more easily integrable since I'm not trying to change everything, just giving each race the ability to tweak their racials to fit their class/role a bit closer.

If you don't agree with me about YOUR idea, how about you start your own thread instead of trying to derail my thread with your own agenda.

Your Argonian Build:
Base:

• (free) Allows Argonians to have any green drink active at the same time as food *
• (free) Increase max magicka by 3%
• (free) Increases healing received by 4% and increases swimming speed by 50%
• (free) Increases Poison /Disease Resistance by 600. Increase Physical Resistance by 400
• (free) Increases speed while stealthed by 7%

Healer option? Max Magicka and Potions? Maybe Healing Received/Health Recovery? 6 Points
Tank Option?Healing Received/Health Recovery? Poison/Disease/Physical Resist? Max Magicka? 6 points
Stamina DPS? Guerilla expertise? Physiology?Potions? 6 points

You would still be inferior to magically strong races for healer or magicka DPS unless ZoS screwed them over to get your Argonian passives.

You would still be inferior to RedGuard or Nord for tanking unless ZoS screwed them over to get your Argonian passives.

You would still be inferior to some other race in healing that gets the healing done omitted here to get your Argonian passive.

You would still be inferior to Khajit Or Bosmer for Stamina DPS, unless ZoS screwed them over to get your Argonian passive.

The only role Argonian would be considered to be one of the best would be Assassin style DPS with your idea and even then you would be sub-par to a Khajit or Bosmer in Stamina DPS or a Altmer or Dunmer Or Breton in Magicka DPS because stamina/magicka is the major defining damage attributes in this game which your Argonian is now severely at a disadvantage to the above races.

Lastly, your free passives allow a race to build towards a role. But if every race has to be different then who gets the strongest free passives in certain builds? If all the free passives start off similar in numbers to allow different roles to be play on each race. Then the purpose of races is nothing more than flavor, generic, something I don't want to be a part of.

I um really don't know why you are focused on the "basic" package because it isn't meant to give you any REAL inclination towards any class or role. It's free and, well BASIC.

Now if we start to spend POINTS you will find that each role you claim we are "inferior" to is not quite the case anymore (also why you would compare my free package to a fully fleshed out current racial package with full spent point is beyond me)

First and foremost, EVERY class would benefit from 1-2 pts in Gift of the Hist. Being able to get get +300 regen to your health and primary stat is never a bad thing.

Then if you want to be a magicka based you take full mage touched.

A Tank, Amphibian Physiology and Hardiness

Nightblade? Then you would obviously take Guerrilla Warfare Expertise


As for other things you mentioned like a Stamina DPS.........well I never intended for these options to make you great at EVERYTHING. Like with ALL other ES games to date, races have their strengths and weaknesses. That's the way it's ALWAYS been and I agree with it. If I fleshed out the other races with this option concept, each would have similar strengths and weaknesses.

At least with these options we can become competitive with all magicka builds and all roles. Some of the abilities are universally helpful, even to stamina. The point was to have a much wider range than what we have currently which is pretty much niche tank builds.

Will Argonians necessarily be "the best" at anything? maybe not but they would be much closer to other races than they are now.

Your idea mostly only affects your character and their role solely.

YEP, that's exactly what I intended it to do and nothing more. Thanks.

I made it a bit more complex but still very easy for the Devs to integrate into the game without hassle.

Kalifas

PlagueMonk wrote:

Don't like my opinion? Great, but your system is WAY too damn complex for it's own good and trying to integrate it into ESO would require some major re-tooling to make sure things were "balanced". Your idea fits Rift a lot better than it would here.

My idea while yes, doesn't give players NEARLY the options you do, it IS much more easily integrable since I'm not trying to change everything, just giving each race the ability to tweak their racials to fit their class/role a bit closer.

If you don't agree with me about YOUR idea, how about you start your own thread instead of trying to derail my thread with your own agenda.

I already have two of my own threads. It seems I have made you feel a certain way. Our opinions obviously differ. My intent typing here was not to do anything negative. So I will bow out.

KingShocker

at this point I would almost prefer no racial passives so that I can play the race I want with the build I want and still be competitive.

maybe they can add stats to those worthless thieves guild and dark brotherhood skill lines to make up the difference of lost racial passives. then give those skill lines for free while still requiring the content and locations to be paid for.

I don't know, i'm sure you guys have better ideas. I just hate being pigeon hold' into my racial's play style

Jar_Ek

I like the idea of a diverse set of racial options, so using Argonian example we would have the following types of thing:

Guerrilla warfare, Shamanic healer, Hist skin, Argonian physiology, and Master alchemist.

These would give stealth related, magicka and healing done related, healing received and regeneration, poison/disease/physical resistances, some form of potion or food/drink related passive respectively.

But you could only spend 9pts total and would get a training and fluff passive for free. Each category would have 3 levels and would be tiered (ie cannot get level 2 without first getting level 1). So you would choose 9 from 15 passive levels. This would allow for alot of diversity and support multiple build types...

However the devil would be in the detail of the actual passive.

PlagueMonk

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I like the idea of a diverse set of racial options, so using Argonian example we would have the following types of thing:

Guerrilla warfare, Shamanic healer, Hist skin, Argonian physiology, and Master alchemist.

These would give stealth related, magicka and healing done related, healing received and regeneration, poison/disease/physical resistances, some form of potion or food/drink related passive respectively.

But you could only spend 9pts total and would get a training and fluff passive for free. Each category would have 3 levels and would be tiered (ie cannot get level 2 without first getting level 1). So you would choose 9 from 15 passive levels. This would allow for alot of diversity and support multiple build types...

However the devil would be in the detail of the actual passive.

Hummm, I thought I did that.

- Guerrilla Warfare Expertise (check)
- Shamanic healer (check - 9% all magicka is better than just a healing bonus)
- Hist skin (check)
- Argonian physiology (check)
- 3 levels (check)
- same amount of pts spent technically (I just gave a bit more away for free )

The only things I did not use are:

- Master alchemist (this potion using thing was from Zenimax and not lore matching really so I junked it but the Gift of the Hists ability functions similarly but with more of a permanent bonus)

- Healer (something else I junked) because it's been proven that straight magicka is just as good as healing received but it also has the benefit of; Making your resource pool bigger and allows you to use that resource for more than just healing (so basically any other magicka skill like DPS!)

- I also junked the training ability because it's pretty worthless imho.


So it looks like we are really close.

PlagueMonk

oh yeah, gone but not forgotten!

While I won't just /bump this thread all the time, rest assured I will NOT give up [snip] about until Worbel directly replies to the reason WHY Argonian's look nothing like the OPs descriptions (including the ESO website itself no less!)

Also......I would like to know why, when Worbel HIMSELF admitted to the game being more "DPS focused" and giving EVERY RACE a DPS passive, WHY Argonians instead got......better healing? (sorry I don't consider 3% magicka anything more than a tiny, crappy, bone)

If you are going to give every race a DPS passive, that passive should be available to every playstyle and not locked behind resources or a class.

I WILL be re-posting this next PTS round and will also be including some other races as examples (I just need time to research every race)

Forestd16b14_ESO

Sorry but no the racial passive aren't really even in for game play reasons but more for lore reasons.

KingShocker

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but no the racial passive aren't really even in for game play reasons but more for lore reasons.

for this reason exactly I think racial passives should not be combat related, stuff like reduced fall damage and higher swim speed would be great if they just stuck to those.