Red Diamond (Imperial Racial Passive)

Solariken · July 2016

I want to open a separate discussion about Imperials and hopefully catch a developer's eye. ZOS is making some very interesting changes to racial passives this patch, and I know Wrobel stated on ESO Live that they thought Imperial passives are strong overall. The passives are indeed decently strong, but I feel that ZOS is missing an important opportunity to give the race a truly complete identity and niche. Here is a piece of feedback I left in the official thread:

Because Imperials are locked behind a paywall, there should be a very clear and desirable benefit for choosing them over other races. That benefit should NOT be a raw power advantage over other races, as many players would perceive this as “pay-to-win.” I believe the Imperial benefit should be that they are synergistic with the greatest variety of character builds and perform competitively in the greatest variety of situations. Additionally, they should be among the most conducive to switching your character between magicka and stamina specializations.

The +12% max health is nice, but not overly strong - this passive is not as good as it was at launch when the health to mag/stam attribute ratio was much higher than it is now. Ergo when the ratio was changed, both the max health passive AND Red Diamond (which scales with max health) were both unintentionally nerfed significantly. The +10% max stamina passive is also nice, but not unique or more powerful than what is offered in other racial toolsets. Both of these passives are reasonably balanced.

Red Diamond is the piece that desperately needs reworking to provide the Imperial edge/niche. It is incredibly weak and unreliable, even on a fast-attacking skill like Biting Jabs. This passive should be beefed up to achieve the goals I quoted above, providing a clear reason to pay a little extra to be able to play as an Imperial and afford players great build flexibility. Consider first that a diamond has four points, and ESO combat uses four resource pools. Also consider that Imperials in prior TES games have usually had an element of luck baked into their racial benefits. In keeping with this theme, here is my idea:

Red Diamond

When taking damage, you have an X% chance to restore Y% of max health over Z seconds.

Critical strikes with weapon attacks have an X% chance to restore Y% of max stamina over Z seconds.

Spells causing damage or healing over time have an X% chance to restore Y% of max magicka over Z seconds.

Each time you gain ultimate, you have an X% chance to gain 1 additional ultimate.

[ZOS would determine the appropriate numbers for the above variables.]

These restorative mechanics offer sustain that is subject to RNG in the spirit of the current Red Diamond. The procs are strong but situational and overall just slightly weaker than a direct boost to recovery stats that many other races enjoy. They do not stack or directly interact with your character's recovery stats and are not prone to runaway multiplicative boost. The Z second duration is also important because it prevents rapid fire procs - if additional procs occur during the Z seconds, the duration is simply refreshed. These restorative passives scale nicely with and synergize with the player's build and are very adaptive and useful to a huge number of builds.

As I stated, I think it's appropriate to give Red Diamond four mini resource bonuses, as a diamond has four points. The numbers that I feel would be about right for the above variables are 10% chance, 6% of health/stam/mag, and over 4 seconds.

Thanks for reading! @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel @ZOS_KNowak @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Vangy · July 2016

Blood diamond.... The most POS passive that exists... Even the 1% bonus gold is kinda more useful... It restores so little that sometimes I dont even notice it on HPS tables....

Imo this X% chance to do _____ things should stop. Just make it restores X% health when ________ every Y seconds. Staph with RNG. Hate RNG. This game has way too much RNG alr.

actosh · July 2016

Red Diamond needs some tweaks. To get rid of the %based chance would be a good start.
I like the suggestions made in this thread.

Grimbim · July 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Staph with RNG. Hate RNG. This game has way too much RNG alr.

this. would be nice if they rework red diamond. currently it's just useless. i like some of the suggestions above, but i would prefer if they cut out the rng part.

actosh · July 2016

Make it similar to redguards.

3%of max health back every 5 secs on all attacks.

Or rework it completely.

Bashev · July 2016

Once it was good in PvP when it proced on caltrops and battle spirit didnt reduced the healing. Now it is the weakest 3rd tier racial passive. It shouldnt be related to random heal and it should be changed to something more useful preferably something that is not affected directly by the battle spirit. Even in PvE this passive is useless.

Phoenix_Frost · July 2016

So very true that the Imperial race needs tweaking/improvement, for it to be more of an incentive to use the race.
Even the new "increase your gold gained by 1%" is quite weak as a bonus.

And yes, the Red Diamond race passive is not useful as it is now, both in PvE and PvP (especially).
Really like the ideas above (in OP post).

Hope they change it, so it will be more interesting/useful to start an Imperial character.

ZoM_Head · July 2016

actosh wrote: »

Make it similar to redguards.

3%of max health back every 5 secs on all attacks.

Or rework it completely.

Interesting.....i think this is fair enough. But in Cyrodiil, that would be dropped down to 1.5% or something due to battlespirit correct?

Vangy · July 2016

ZoM_Head wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Make it similar to redguards.

3%of max health back every 5 secs on all attacks.

Or rework it completely.

Interesting.....i think this is fair enough. But in Cyrodiil, that would be dropped down to 1.5% or something due to battlespirit correct?

Yep. Means even on a 30k health tank, 30k*0.03/5/2 = 90 hp per second if u keep hitting someone 100% of the time. Less if u arent. GG.

ZoM_Head · July 2016

Vangy wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Make it similar to redguards.

3%of max health back every 5 secs on all attacks.

Or rework it completely.

Interesting.....i think this is fair enough. But in Cyrodiil, that would be dropped down to 1.5% or something due to battlespirit correct?

Yep. Means even on a 30k health tank, 30k*0.03/5/2 = 90 hp per second if u keep hitting someone 100% of the time. Less if u arent. GG.

Yeah i suspected so....needs to be redone then imo.

Solariken · July 2016

I think Red Diamond needs to be completely exempt from Battle Spirit whether it gets buffed or not - it should not be treated as a heal, but as a regeneration mechanic.

Solariken · July 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Blood diamond.... The most POS passive that exists... Even the 1% bonus gold is kinda more useful... It restores so little that sometimes I dont even notice it on HPS tables....

Imo this X% chance to do _____ things should stop. Just make it restores X% health when ________ every Y seconds. Staph with RNG. Hate RNG. This game has way too much RNG alr.

@Vangy I'm generally not a fan of RNG either, but if ZOS adopted my suggestion, I think that RNG would be appropriate for reasons stated in my OP. You want the procs to be strong, but if they proc on every cooldown, the bonuses have to be set really low. With RNG, you can balance it to have four separate procs that are more noticeable when they proc versus just a constant small stream of regeneration.

Ishammael · July 2016

Red Diamond used to be the most OP passive in the game (proc'ed on Caltrops and gen'd ulty pre-1.6).

Now it just stinks.

Middle ground would be nice.

Sporvan · July 2016

This needs a serious buff for sure, it's so miniscule I hardly notice it.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2016

Here's personally what i would like to see done to Red Diamond after playing Imperial for 1 year:

My idea is to turn Red Diamond into a heal over time instead of a flat value. The passive would still have a 10% proc chance with melee. So that way when the passive proc's, its more noticeable. You could even add in a nice effect around your body to show this healing.

If Red Diamond was a HoT with RNG, you would hear players say things like "hey that guys Imperial, his Red Diamond proc'd, he will probably go offensive" or something like "his Red Diamond proc'd, i should go on the defensive until its over, then ill lay down my burst and go for the kill".

I think this would be a good dynamic for the Imperial Race.

Solariken · July 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Here's personally what i would like to see done to Red Diamond after playing Imperial for 1 year:

My idea is to turn Red Diamond into a heal over time instead of a flat value. The passive would still have a 10% proc chance with melee. So that way when the passive proc's, its more noticeable. You could even add in a nice effect around your body to show this healing.

If Red Diamond was a HoT with RNG, you would hear players say things like "hey that guys Imperial, his Red Diamond proc'd, he will probably go offensive" or something like "his Red Diamond proc'd, i should go on the defensive until its over, then ill lay down my burst and go for the kill".

I think this would be a good dynamic for the Imperial Race.

I agree @GreenSoup2HoT, it's a HoT in my OP already - X% of max health over Z seconds. They could make a subtle visual affect, but don't think it's 100% necessary because the bonuses wouldn't be as strong as regular abilities or 5-set procs.

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2016

Solariken wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Here's personally what i would like to see done to Red Diamond after playing Imperial for 1 year:

My idea is to turn Red Diamond into a heal over time instead of a flat value. The passive would still have a 10% proc chance with melee. So that way when the passive proc's, its more noticeable. You could even add in a nice effect around your body to show this healing.

If Red Diamond was a HoT with RNG, you would hear players say things like "hey that guys Imperial, his Red Diamond proc'd, he will probably go offensive" or something like "his Red Diamond proc'd, i should go on the defensive until its over, then ill lay down my burst and go for the kill".

I think this would be a good dynamic for the Imperial Race.

I agree @GreenSoup2HoT, it's a HoT in my OP already - X% of max health over Z seconds. They could make a subtle visual affect, but don't think it's 100% necessary because the bonuses wouldn't be as strong as regular abilities or 5-set procs.

I think a percentage base heal would be to powerful when you consider all sun shield builds are already Imperial for the health bonus, a flat value heal should remain in my opinion.

AJ_1988 · July 2016

I would be happy to switch it out for max magicka or magicka damage or something. The current state of it is pretty bad and I think it's also affected by battlespirit.

Solariken · July 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Here's personally what i would like to see done to Red Diamond after playing Imperial for 1 year:

My idea is to turn Red Diamond into a heal over time instead of a flat value. The passive would still have a 10% proc chance with melee. So that way when the passive proc's, its more noticeable. You could even add in a nice effect around your body to show this healing.

If Red Diamond was a HoT with RNG, you would hear players say things like "hey that guys Imperial, his Red Diamond proc'd, he will probably go offensive" or something like "his Red Diamond proc'd, i should go on the defensive until its over, then ill lay down my burst and go for the kill".

I think this would be a good dynamic for the Imperial Race.

I agree @GreenSoup2HoT, it's a HoT in my OP already - X% of max health over Z seconds. They could make a subtle visual affect, but don't think it's 100% necessary because the bonuses wouldn't be as strong as regular abilities or 5-set procs.

I think a percentage base heal would be to powerful when you consider all sun shield builds are already Imperial for the health bonus, a flat value heal should remain in my opinion.

@GreenSoup2HoT, Red Diamond is not a flat value on live (never was). The RD heal is 6% of max health.

Vangy · July 2016

Solariken wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Here's personally what i would like to see done to Red Diamond after playing Imperial for 1 year:

My idea is to turn Red Diamond into a heal over time instead of a flat value. The passive would still have a 10% proc chance with melee. So that way when the passive proc's, its more noticeable. You could even add in a nice effect around your body to show this healing.

If Red Diamond was a HoT with RNG, you would hear players say things like "hey that guys Imperial, his Red Diamond proc'd, he will probably go offensive" or something like "his Red Diamond proc'd, i should go on the defensive until its over, then ill lay down my burst and go for the kill".

I think this would be a good dynamic for the Imperial Race.

I agree @GreenSoup2HoT, it's a HoT in my OP already - X% of max health over Z seconds. They could make a subtle visual affect, but don't think it's 100% necessary because the bonuses wouldn't be as strong as regular abilities or 5-set procs.

I think a percentage base heal would be to powerful when you consider all sun shield builds are already Imperial for the health bonus, a flat value heal should remain in my opinion.

@GreenSoup2HoT, Red Diamond is not a flat value on live (never was). The RD heal is 6% of max health.

^this.

Well even with a 70k health tank (lol right?);

70k * 0.06 * 0.5 * 0.1 = 210 hp/s if u are constantly hitting someone....... For the average cyro build with 25k hp;

25k * 0.06 * 0.5 * 0.1 = 75 hp/s lol....

You could make it 12% and it will still be ridiculously weak just cos of battle spirit. Even a flat out 20% bonus to health regen will outshine it.

Vercingetorix · July 2016

Why isn't Red Diamond on a timed cooldown like Adrenaline Rush? The two passives are otherwise functionally identical. Perhaps 3-5 seconds is a bit too much for health restoration, but surely something close to 6-8 seconds?

Sporvan · July 2016

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Why isn't Red Diamond on a timed cooldown like Adrenaline Rush? The two passives are otherwise functionally identical. Perhaps 3-5 seconds is a bit too much for health restoration, but surely something close to 6-8 seconds?

Apples and Oranges. Adrenaline Rush is much much more powerful than Red Diamond.

olsborg · July 2016

They nerfed red diamond indirectly when they introduced the new battlespirit. In cyrodiil the heal is very, very insignificant.

Hymzir · July 2016

AJ_1988 wrote: »

I would be happy to switch it out for max magicka or magicka damage or something. The current state of it is pretty bad and I think it's also affected by battlespirit.

This is what I would also like to see. And it would fit the race quite well. After all, they are supposed to be a cosmopolitan people, who have absorbed traits and traditions from all the surrounding lands. Adding max magicka to Imperials would make them truly versatile race, able to do well in all avenues of skill. Other races, with more singular talents would still be the optimal choice.

Thus I doubt that adding max magicka to them would make them OP,. High Elves would still be supreme for magicka builds and Redguards (or maybe the new Khajit) for Stamina. Imperials would, however, become true jack of all trades race. They would not be optimal for any role, but would bring with them a certain degree of versatility due to higher base stats. As an added bonus Imperials would also be able to respec their builds from stamina to magicka, or go heavy with health for tanking, without much issue. And do remember that this versatility would still be locked behind a pay wall. Nor would it be the best choice for min maxin either, so no need to start crying about pay to win either.

I doubt any melee build Imperial player will even notice the removal of Red Diamond. The heals form it are so minuscule and seldom. With all the different changes to the game, the passive has simple become rubbish. Besides it also ties you down to play full melee builds if you actually are going to benefit from it. So even if you go stamina, you'd better shy away from bows, since the skill is of no use to archers.

Solariken · July 2016

Hymzir wrote: »

I doubt any melee build Imperial player will even notice the removal of Red Diamond. The heals form it are so minuscule and seldom. With all the different changes to the game, the passive has simple become rubbish. Besides it also ties you down to play full melee builds if you actually are going to benefit from it. So even if you go stamina, you'd better shy away from bows, since the skill is of no use to archers.

@Hymzir you are exactly right. If they changed it to proc on damage taken instead of melee damage done, it would actually be decent. But in that case it would need a cooldown and I think the heal value would still need to be buffed.

I still prefer the whole package of passives in my OP though, lol.

Bislobo · July 2016

Could not agree more, red diamond is useless. Definitely needs a rework/buff.

Dagoth_Rac · July 2016

The 4-pronged effect detailed in the original post sounds cool. Imperial is kind of a hybrid class, very good at multiple things, but not really great at any one thing. It would add some sustain to all build types, but would not outperform the sustain of focused min/max builds using other races like Redguard or Breton or Bosmer. So it would continue the theme of Imperial being very good at multiple play styles, but still not a min/max race.

BoloBoffin · July 2016

Perhaps the four prongs could be swapped out depending on the weapon set you have.

One Hand and Shield for the first (heal from damage).

Two Handed and Dual Wield for the second (stam return from attack).

Destro/Resto for the third (magicka return from attack).

Bow for the last (extra Ultimate).

Perhaps the last could be something more fitting to bow attacks, like additional weapon damage for further range. That would accomplish versatility and not be a huge stack of buffs applicable at all times.

Solariken · July 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The 4-pronged effect detailed in the original post sounds cool. Imperial is kind of a hybrid class, very good at multiple things, but not really great at any one thing. It would add some sustain to all build types, but would not outperform the sustain of focused min/max builds using other races like Redguard or Breton or Bosmer. So it would continue the theme of Imperial being very good at multiple play styles, but still not a min/max race.

Exactly what I was hoping for. I'm not holding my breath though. It doesn't look like they are willing to revisit racials.

Vangy · July 2016

Solariken wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The 4-pronged effect detailed in the original post sounds cool. Imperial is kind of a hybrid class, very good at multiple things, but not really great at any one thing. It would add some sustain to all build types, but would not outperform the sustain of focused min/max builds using other races like Redguard or Breton or Bosmer. So it would continue the theme of Imperial being very good at multiple play styles, but still not a min/max race.

Exactly what I was hoping for. I'm not holding my breath though. It doesn't look like they are willing to revisit racials.

We still have it better than argonian swim speed.... I guess.... Right?

Lord_Eomer · July 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

The 4-pronged effect detailed in the original post sounds cool. Imperial is kind of a hybrid class, very good at multiple things, but not really great at any one thing. It would add some sustain to all build types, but would not outperform the sustain of focused min/max builds using other races like Redguard or Breton or Bosmer. So it would continue the theme of Imperial being very good at multiple play styles, but still not a min/max race.

Breton are far away from sustain comparing bosmer or redguard..

Even no magicka race is sustain comparing bosmer or redgaurd.