Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Esgameplaya1 · July 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU

#Balanced

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

He's speaking from the experiences he's had recently in Cyrodiil and he knows Templar inside and out.

I have much more experience playing pvp as a Magicka Templar. So wouldn't mine, or Joy's, or Zheg's, or Bee's opinion count for more?

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

I've been making a point lately of using RD to beam people down from full health to dead and it is ridiculously easy and it can be done from a safe distance. Something needs to change.

You cannot beam a player down from full health with just one Radiant. You just can't unless the player is afk and/or wearing terrible gear. The only thing I would be willing to settle on is a slight reduction in range...and that's it. And honestly, most of my kills come from a closer range than everyone is making it out to be.

This exactly. Most of the time when I beam, I'm within a 22 meter range or right on top of the person (thought I do have my moments of idgaf and will beam from a distance o: ), but mostly it's when I'm right on the person, or who I'm playing with is right on them. Also, I've never seen a good player let me beam them from full health xD It's just not gonna happen unless they're tabbed out or afk.

Jules · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong.

Blasphemy.
The word of Blab is gospel.
Blessed be, heathen. Repent(ance) and your soul gem shall be saved.

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong.

Blasphemy.
The word of Blab is gospel.
Blessed be, heathen. Repent(ance) and your soul gem shall be saved.

Not to mention, Blab's opinion is a highly respected one in the community. If he's wrong about something, he will admit it. I talk to Blab about most things Templar related, and he always gives me a neutral answer and his opinionated one. I'm sure he would do the same for anyone who asked. He's also one of the most polite and courteous players in this game. As a community, particularly when discussing balance, I think we should give "flying Fs" about each other's opinions.

Zheg · July 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong.

Blasphemy.
The word of Blab is gospel.
Blessed be, heathen. Repent(ance) and your soul gem shall be saved.

Not to mention, Blab's opinion is a highly respected one in the community. If he's wrong about something, he will admit it. I talk to Blab about most things Templar related, and he always gives me a neutral answer and his opinionated one. I'm sure he would do the same for anyone who asked. He's also one of the most polite and courteous players in this game. As a community, particularly when discussing balance, I think we should give "flying Fs" about each other's opinions.

There is a difference between adding his opinion to the mix and citing it as you would in a research paper like its proven fact. It's almost as if a few people are so desperate to win their argument that once they find a templar they can name they think that automatically wins the argument for them. It's mind boggling. Blab is far from the only experienced templar to ever speak on the subject. He has a very specific expertise in pvp and it's one voice in the mix, it is not THE voice as some seem to think. No one is saying to disregard the opinion, but when I see him quoted on the 35th thread, yes, we should all reach a point where no one gives a flying F any more. Moving on, so to speak.

For a history lesson, he entered this debate saying the damage was way too high and posted a video he had to backtrack on because observant people pointed out there was nothing wrong with it and everything was within reason. It's funny seeing people (only publicly) say that range is the ONLY thing they think should be nerfed, but then namedrop blab - someone who has argued for changes to the skill they say they don't agree with. It's funny, and I'm sure inconvenient for a lot of people when it's pointed out.

I'd also point out that many of the people calling for nerfs have 'evolved' their position over time. So many people saying that all they want is range nerfed have said the damage needs to be nerfed, and/or have said it needs to be dodgeable at one point in time. For this crowd - it looks to me like they're grasping at straws. They cannot make a convincing argument for other heavy handed nerfs, but they want it nerfed because #reasons and will settle on the range because they think that has a better chance of getting ZOS to cave. I truly don't believe the range will do all that much, but even if it does, I truly don't believe this crowd will stop at nerfing the range considering the history of their posts. If you want to be taken seriously and pretend like you feel strongly about a balance suggestion, maybe you should maintain some level of consistency instead of looking like you're hopping on whatever nerf train you think will fly.

Munavar · July 2016

Sorry Cinn but it is highly doubtful that you alone are using this one skill to kill a person from full health alone (3K x 3 = 9K damage). Maybe if they have no impen, in light armor and don't know what block is. Everyone here has said that the skill is near useless when used on a full health target. Even in the original post states that 1-2 beams are not even an issue for him (which makes the entire notion of the skill being over performing null and void).

That being said I do believe that your target does die as others (Xv1) add additional damage within the 3 second timeframe.

On topic,
This suggestion of reducing the range is just a veiled notion of melee leaning players not liking ranged abilities and wanting all players in melee (gap closer) range. If ZOS were to be effectively be removing ranged abilities by doing this then they would either need up the damage on the ranged abilities or decrease the melee abilities. After all, there was a post at some point as to the reason why weapon damage and abilities is higher is because of the risk of being 'in range'.

Hempyre · July 2016

Beamed from full health...

What a ridiculous statement. On any normally specced toon it would take two minimum and more likely three full channels of beam to do this. Over what, 20ish seconds? If that happens you deserved to be beamed to death.

#Neverhappened

KenaPKK · July 2016

Any healer character is stuck in combat the same. I pointed out that even though Templars are afflicted with this way more often than other classes, it isn't an issue belonging in a class balance thread. ZOS just needs to fix "in combat" checks for everyone. If your personal experience with other classes does not reflect this, then you use fewer shared hots.

Crit Charge crits. Toppling charge topples (ccs). The comparison is irrelevant. Moving beam into gap closer range is precisely why I generated the "reduce its range" beam nerf threads a month or two back. If a Templar applies beam -- a high damage, undodgeable execute -- and fails to either cc the target first, outright kill them with the first ticks, or prepare in another way, then in my opinion they deserve to be gap closed on and have the beam broken. It's a powerful ability, and such high range directly alleviates the risk that is supposed to be introduced by the ability being a channel.

With Battle Spirit, Reach passives, and Propelling Shield, yes the range can reach over 40m. There is a pretty funny video floating around of a straight damage spec magplar using it to one shot people from max range. Prop shield isn't used often, but it is accurate to include that buff when citing max range.

I don't care for snipe too, but at least you hear it coming before you take damage and can dodge roll follow up snipes while you reposition either toward or away from the snipetard. Also the major issue imo with snipe and other bow attacks is that in lag, multiple can hit simultaneously. This is frustrating but should not be confused as a balance issue. Aaaand I'm also not a fan of the additional damage from stealth...and my list can go on.

But this thread is about RD. Not sure why balance discussions on single skills end up as *** measuring contests about whose skill is more op.

Exactly, it deals comparable damage at higher healths to a spammable, and it shouldnt because it's an execute that outright kills you when you hit ~30% health.

To be mad at wrecking blowers and surprise attackers for using their dps abilities is like being mad at a Templar for using sweeps or breath of life, and to call any of it spam is ridiculous. I suppose to clarify, "spam" as we use the word here refers to the effectiveness of repeatedly using the ability regardless of enemy health or context. To spam snipe or an execute or breath of life or a shield is to be obnoxious but not terribly combat effective. If I spam snipe, people get annoyed, roll a few times at me, then jump on me and kill me. If I spam Impale, I do nearly no damage until someone else gets the enemy to 25% health. If I spam RD, I hit for respectable damage at higher health, can kill the average 22k health player in 2 ticks from 50% health, and can do so from far away and right through dodge rolls. To "spam" dizzying swing or surprise attack is merely to dps. To disagree is to persecute Puncturing Sweeps and Crushing Shock "spammers" everywhere.

As a disclaimer, I believe that Surprise Attack is op too. I think that it shouldn't give penetration and should be traded with Blur in the Assassination tree so that it doesn't trigger Shadow Barrier. But again, this thread is about RD.

My point about your comment on build optimization is that our builds are plenty optimized. We're plenty prepared for and qualified to discuss outnumbered combat. I see your comment as a rash assumption. It is extremely possible and normal for one person to be able to combat 4-5 if he is built better and more skillful. Killing them may not be possible if they're good, but surviving and not "getting instantly vaporized" is not only possible, but expected. If you, as a magplar, die quickly when 4-5 are on you, then it is an issue of preparedness. Do not assume that we cannot handle that fight, and do not assume that you can't either with a proper build and practice.

Cinnamon_Spider · July 2016

You don't have to believe me, but it's happened and more than once. These are complete potatoes of players, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that. In it's current form, it's too powerful.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Van_0S wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.

I mainly do PvE, believe me, this doesn't impact PvE at all
But no, this is mainly about PvP counters to the skill etc, its largely over performing in there at the moment, and what not. I also like Feng's idea.

Feng's as no idea of a magplar!
Don't agree with his post about templar because he doesn't have a character that's a magplar. If you want to agree with some one post then be certain that player as a magplar character in PvP.( that as earned the title captain, at least)

Edit:
No offence!
If your a PvE player then stay out of PvP, and dont make threads about nerfs to a class(in PvP) that you have no idea off.

You should edit your post and get rid of the last part. You just sound dumb
At this point I'm pretty sure almost everyone plays every part of the game

I have a pvp healer from a dominating red group as a main healer

I have a legate and a general in my guild too, and #1 in the trials on NA. That comment just lol people still have that mind set?

Cinnamon_Spider · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

He's speaking from the experiences he's had recently in Cyrodiil and he knows Templar inside and out.

I have much more experience playing pvp as a Magicka Templar. So wouldn't mine, or Joy's, or Zheg's, or Bee's opinion count for more?

Why should one opinion count for more over another? Just because of PVP rank? My Templar is rank 24. How much weight is my opinion allowed to carry?

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

I've been making a point lately of using RD to beam people down from full health to dead and it is ridiculously easy and it can be done from a safe distance. Something needs to change.

You cannot beam a player down from full health with just one Radiant. You just can't unless the player is afk and/or wearing terrible gear. The only thing I would be willing to settle on is a slight reduction in range...and that's it. And honestly, most of my kills come from a closer range than everyone is making it out to be.

There are a lot of players out there with terrible gear. But that isn't the point. The point is that an execute shouldn't be dealing as much damage as it is capable of dealing on a full health target.

Zheg · July 2016

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

He's speaking from the experiences he's had recently in Cyrodiil and he knows Templar inside and out.

I have much more experience playing pvp as a Magicka Templar. So wouldn't mine, or Joy's, or Zheg's, or Bee's opinion count for more?

Why should one opinion count for more over another? Just because of PVP rank? My Templar is rank 24. How much weight is my opinion allowed to carry?

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

I've been making a point lately of using RD to beam people down from full health to dead and it is ridiculously easy and it can be done from a safe distance. Something needs to change.

You cannot beam a player down from full health with just one Radiant. You just can't unless the player is afk and/or wearing terrible gear. The only thing I would be willing to settle on is a slight reduction in range...and that's it. And honestly, most of my kills come from a closer range than everyone is making it out to be.

There are a lot of players out there with terrible gear. But that isn't the point. The point is that an execute shouldn't be dealing as much damage as it is capable of dealing on a full health target.

Here's the thing people seem to not get. They keep trying to compare it to every other execute and that's a terrible premise to start with and here's why. Executes as you allude to are instant cast and meant to be used at low health. The skill is a channel - if it only was useful at very low hp and was instant, it would be a different skill. You cannot have it be a channel and have it function similarly to the other executes, and as such, it shouldn't be compared to other executes in the way you and others want to compare it. Jesus beam is its own beast, much like streak or cloak or wings.

maxjapank · July 2016

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Why should one opinion count for more over another? Just because of PVP rank? My Templar is rank 24. How much weight is my opinion allowed to carry?

Have you been playing Templar on a regular basis in the current Meta? If so, then yes, I think your opinion carries more weight.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

The point is that an execute shouldn't be dealing as much damage as it is capable of dealing on a full health target.

But it doesn't do much damage on a full health target. It just doesn't. So why should I continue to listen to your opinion when you are posting false information?

Wreuntzylla · July 2016

RD has the same problem as all executes in this game. Its based on percentage of health. Change it to be based off a flat amount. Make it 10k health. This has the added benefit of making health a useful stat.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Doesn't make it immune from being op.

Doesn't make it exempt from balance discussion.

Notice that we're judging it separately from other abilities in its own threads.

And notice that most of us (those of us with the more sound arguments) are actually contrasting it with other executes, not comparing them.

Edit: did you just try and argue that RD is allowed to deal significant damage in and out of execute range because it's a channel that can be applied to and held on enemies continuously...which also happens to be undodgeable? I just can't even...

Nifty2g · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Why should one opinion count for more over another? Just because of PVP rank? My Templar is rank 24. How much weight is my opinion allowed to carry?

Have you been playing Templar on a regular basis in the current Meta? If so, then yes, I think your opinion carries more weight.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

The point is that an execute shouldn't be dealing as much damage as it is capable of dealing on a full health target.

But it doesn't do much damage on a full health target. It just doesn't. So why should I continue to listen to your opinion when you are posting false information?

Current meta, lol. Really?

As for damage, it's really easy to get around 4 or 5k ticks at full health. Just spec for it and read the tooltip

@Alcast does a great showing how terrible it can be in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q8v-oTHPio

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Doesn't make it immune from being op.

Doesn't make it exempt from balance discussion.

Notice that we're judging it separately from other abilities in its own threads.

And notice that most of us (those of us with the more sound arguments) are actually contrasting it with other executes, not comparing them.

*Notice that we've changed our opinions multiple times on what exactly needs to be balanced about it because we just want to see it nerfed regardless.

I fixed it for you.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Doesn't make it immune from being op.

Doesn't make it exempt from balance discussion.

Notice that we're judging it separately from other abilities in its own threads.

And notice that most of us (those of us with the more sound arguments) are actually contrasting it with other executes, not comparing them.

*Notice that we've changed our opinions multiple times on what exactly needs to be balanced about it because we just want to see it nerfed regardless.

I fixed it for you.

Who's changed?

Regardless, whoever changed is probably justified. It's op and needs to be nerfed, even if they couldn't settle on how to go about so initially.

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong.

Blasphemy.
The word of Blab is gospel.
Blessed be, heathen. Repent(ance) and your soul gem shall be saved.

Not to mention, Blab's opinion is a highly respected one in the community. If he's wrong about something, he will admit it. I talk to Blab about most things Templar related, and he always gives me a neutral answer and his opinionated one. I'm sure he would do the same for anyone who asked. He's also one of the most polite and courteous players in this game. As a community, particularly when discussing balance, I think we should give "flying Fs" about each other's opinions.

There is a difference between adding his opinion to the mix and citing it as you would in a research paper like its proven fact. It's almost as if a few people are so desperate to win their argument that once they find a templar they can name they think that automatically wins the argument for them. It's mind boggling. Blab is far from the only experienced templar to ever speak on the subject. He has a very specific expertise in pvp and it's one voice in the mix, it is not THE voice as some seem to think. No one is saying to disregard the opinion, but when I see him quoted on the 35th thread, yes, we should all reach a point where no one gives a flying F any more. Moving on, so to speak.

For a history lesson, he entered this debate saying the damage was way too high and posted a video he had to backtrack on because observant people pointed out there was nothing wrong with it and everything was within reason. It's funny seeing people (only publicly) say that range is the ONLY thing they think should be nerfed, but then namedrop blab - someone who has argued for changes to the skill they say they don't agree with. It's funny, and I'm sure inconvenient for a lot of people when it's pointed out.

I'd also point out that many of the people calling for nerfs have 'evolved' their position over time. So many people saying that all they want is range nerfed have said the damage needs to be nerfed, and/or have said it needs to be dodgeable at one point in time. For this crowd - it looks to me like they're grasping at straws. They cannot make a convincing argument for other heavy handed nerfs, but they want it nerfed because #reasons and will settle on the range because they think that has a better chance of getting ZOS to cave. I truly don't believe the range will do all that much, but even if it does, I truly don't believe this crowd will stop at nerfing the range considering the history of their posts. If you want to be taken seriously and pretend like you feel strongly about a balance suggestion, maybe you should maintain some level of consistency instead of looking like you're hopping on whatever nerf train you think will fly.

I don't need history lessons, Zheg, I read the forums all the time. I understand that you don't think he should be cited as the Templar end-all, I get that, but I also don't understand you saying you don't give a "flying F" about his opinion. He's a knowledgeable player, and has admitted he's been wrong before. I would think that the community would prefer to have the more knowledgeable players be the ones speaking out more than the misinformed.

I stand by a range nerf, and gave my own thought-out reasoning without namedropping Blab, so no reason to really go on a rant at me. But anyways, I don't think personally attacking me is really necessary either. I'm not "hopping on whatever nerf train". I rarely have ever come here to the forums screaming for a nerf to something. I honestly believe that RD needs a range nerf. That's my opinion, we're all entitled to them. Whoever takes me seriously does so by their own selves, I'm not sitting here crying for people to take me seriously. I, personally, have said it doesn't need to be dodgeable, and the damage is fine. I use the skill, I see its strengths and weaknesses, I think the range needs a tone-down. My opinion, just like you have your's.

Unless you were referring that last sentence to other people, then ignore the above paragraph. (:

Hempyre · July 2016

I cited other skills as comparative examples for perspective not as a measurement, It's relative in the unique nature of each skill and it's situational effectiveness. there are a fair number of quick weaves that are extremely effective regardless of the label the skills wear. RD doesn't exist in a vacuum.

I personally don't complain about WB or Snipe or any other spam. While initially I found it frustrating being on the receiving end of these skills, as I was usually stunned for the duration of said experience. I researched and changed my build and play style (as best as I could) to reduce that kind of impact. It's a learning process, which is more to my point.

It took me a little while to realize the build depth available in this game and the synergies between gear, skills and passives. It's not as "cookie-cutter" as it appears on the surface. Which rolls into the last I'll post on this.

I agree that few are as optimized as some of the higher level players, or have that level of understanding of the game. I have my doubt's that many in that class fall to a full range RD.

Of the 4-5 average players that may come out on the losing side of that 1v5 , (I understand that this isn't the context from which you form your opinions personally.) I would wonder how many would jump to the boards to cry OP after losing that fight? I'd wager more than one that's piped up here.

anyway,

Cheers.

Zheg · July 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong.

Blasphemy.
The word of Blab is gospel.
Blessed be, heathen. Repent(ance) and your soul gem shall be saved.

Not to mention, Blab's opinion is a highly respected one in the community. If he's wrong about something, he will admit it. I talk to Blab about most things Templar related, and he always gives me a neutral answer and his opinionated one. I'm sure he would do the same for anyone who asked. He's also one of the most polite and courteous players in this game. As a community, particularly when discussing balance, I think we should give "flying Fs" about each other's opinions.

There is a difference between adding his opinion to the mix and citing it as you would in a research paper like its proven fact. It's almost as if a few people are so desperate to win their argument that once they find a templar they can name they think that automatically wins the argument for them. It's mind boggling. Blab is far from the only experienced templar to ever speak on the subject. He has a very specific expertise in pvp and it's one voice in the mix, it is not THE voice as some seem to think. No one is saying to disregard the opinion, but when I see him quoted on the 35th thread, yes, we should all reach a point where no one gives a flying F any more. Moving on, so to speak.

For a history lesson, he entered this debate saying the damage was way too high and posted a video he had to backtrack on because observant people pointed out there was nothing wrong with it and everything was within reason. It's funny seeing people (only publicly) say that range is the ONLY thing they think should be nerfed, but then namedrop blab - someone who has argued for changes to the skill they say they don't agree with. It's funny, and I'm sure inconvenient for a lot of people when it's pointed out.

I'd also point out that many of the people calling for nerfs have 'evolved' their position over time. So many people saying that all they want is range nerfed have said the damage needs to be nerfed, and/or have said it needs to be dodgeable at one point in time. For this crowd - it looks to me like they're grasping at straws. They cannot make a convincing argument for other heavy handed nerfs, but they want it nerfed because #reasons and will settle on the range because they think that has a better chance of getting ZOS to cave. I truly don't believe the range will do all that much, but even if it does, I truly don't believe this crowd will stop at nerfing the range considering the history of their posts. If you want to be taken seriously and pretend like you feel strongly about a balance suggestion, maybe you should maintain some level of consistency instead of looking like you're hopping on whatever nerf train you think will fly.

I don't need history lessons, Zheg, I read the forums all the time. I understand that you don't think he should be cited as the Templar end-all, I get that, but I also don't understand you saying you don't give a "flying F" about his opinion. He's a knowledgeable player, and has admitted he's been wrong before. I would think that the community would prefer to have the more knowledgeable players be the ones speaking out more than the misinformed.

I stand by a range nerf, and gave my own thought-out reasoning without namedropping Blab, so no reason to really go on a rant at me. But anyways, I don't think personally attacking me isn't really necessary either. I'm not "hopping on whatever nerf train". I rarely have ever come here to the forums screaming for a nerf to something. I honestly believe that RD needs a range nerf. That's my opinion, we're all entitled to them. Whoever takes me seriously does so by their own selves, I'm not sitting here crying for people to take me seriously. I, personally, have said it doesn't need to be dodgeable, and the damage is fine. I use the skill, I see its strengths and weaknesses, I think the range needs a tone-down. My opinion, just like you have your's.

Unless you were referring that last sentence to other people, then ignore the above paragraph. (:

The post was speaking in generalities, and directed more at people like Kena, not you. I was responding to your questioning of what I said about flying F's and continued on, that doesn't mean the rest was specifically directed at you.

I care about blab's the first time I hear it. When it's quoted in every single jesus beam thread and he's put on some kind of pedestal for the pro-nerf crowd because they found someone they can namedrop, that's when I start to stop caring.

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FFS why is blab's name dropped in every single RD thread. I could give a flying F about it. It's the opinion of a single experienced templar, that's it. The word of blab is not gospel, the word of blab has at times been wrong.

Blasphemy.
The word of Blab is gospel.
Blessed be, heathen. Repent(ance) and your soul gem shall be saved.

Not to mention, Blab's opinion is a highly respected one in the community. If he's wrong about something, he will admit it. I talk to Blab about most things Templar related, and he always gives me a neutral answer and his opinionated one. I'm sure he would do the same for anyone who asked. He's also one of the most polite and courteous players in this game. As a community, particularly when discussing balance, I think we should give "flying Fs" about each other's opinions.

There is a difference between adding his opinion to the mix and citing it as you would in a research paper like its proven fact. It's almost as if a few people are so desperate to win their argument that once they find a templar they can name they think that automatically wins the argument for them. It's mind boggling. Blab is far from the only experienced templar to ever speak on the subject. He has a very specific expertise in pvp and it's one voice in the mix, it is not THE voice as some seem to think. No one is saying to disregard the opinion, but when I see him quoted on the 35th thread, yes, we should all reach a point where no one gives a flying F any more. Moving on, so to speak.

For a history lesson, he entered this debate saying the damage was way too high and posted a video he had to backtrack on because observant people pointed out there was nothing wrong with it and everything was within reason. It's funny seeing people (only publicly) say that range is the ONLY thing they think should be nerfed, but then namedrop blab - someone who has argued for changes to the skill they say they don't agree with. It's funny, and I'm sure inconvenient for a lot of people when it's pointed out.

I'd also point out that many of the people calling for nerfs have 'evolved' their position over time. So many people saying that all they want is range nerfed have said the damage needs to be nerfed, and/or have said it needs to be dodgeable at one point in time. For this crowd - it looks to me like they're grasping at straws. They cannot make a convincing argument for other heavy handed nerfs, but they want it nerfed because #reasons and will settle on the range because they think that has a better chance of getting ZOS to cave. I truly don't believe the range will do all that much, but even if it does, I truly don't believe this crowd will stop at nerfing the range considering the history of their posts. If you want to be taken seriously and pretend like you feel strongly about a balance suggestion, maybe you should maintain some level of consistency instead of looking like you're hopping on whatever nerf train you think will fly.

I don't need history lessons, Zheg, I read the forums all the time. I understand that you don't think he should be cited as the Templar end-all, I get that, but I also don't understand you saying you don't give a "flying F" about his opinion. He's a knowledgeable player, and has admitted he's been wrong before. I would think that the community would prefer to have the more knowledgeable players be the ones speaking out more than the misinformed.

I stand by a range nerf, and gave my own thought-out reasoning without namedropping Blab, so no reason to really go on a rant at me. But anyways, I don't think personally attacking me isn't really necessary either. I'm not "hopping on whatever nerf train". I rarely have ever come here to the forums screaming for a nerf to something. I honestly believe that RD needs a range nerf. That's my opinion, we're all entitled to them. Whoever takes me seriously does so by their own selves, I'm not sitting here crying for people to take me seriously. I, personally, have said it doesn't need to be dodgeable, and the damage is fine. I use the skill, I see its strengths and weaknesses, I think the range needs a tone-down. My opinion, just like you have your's.

Unless you were referring that last sentence to other people, then ignore the above paragraph. (:

The post was speaking in generalities, and directed more at people like Kena, not you. I was responding to your questioning of what I said about flying F's and continued on, that doesn't mean the rest was specifically directed at you.

I care about blab's the first time I hear it. When it's quoted in every single jesus beam thread and he's put on some kind of pedestal for the pro-nerf crowd because they found someone they can namedrop, that's when I start to stop caring.

The "you, you, you" threw me off, which is why I said ignore if it wasn't directed at me. (:

I don't think you actually know Blab's opinion on what needs to be changed to RD, or anyone else knows either then, honestly. Him and I have discussed it at length, and what we've both agreed on about it doesn't line up with a lot of what people want.

*shrug* I'll let him speak for himself if he wants. This thread has gotten a bit too heated.

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Doesn't make it immune from being op.

Doesn't make it exempt from balance discussion.

Notice that we're judging it separately from other abilities in its own threads.

And notice that most of us (those of us with the more sound arguments) are actually contrasting it with other executes, not comparing them.

*Notice that we've changed our opinions multiple times on what exactly needs to be balanced about it because we just want to see it nerfed regardless.

I fixed it for you.

Who's changed?

Regardless, whoever changed is probably justified. It's op and needs to be nerfed, even if they couldn't settle on how to go about so initially.

You have. Careful Kena, people will actually call you on your bluffs.

Can't quote because the thread is locked, but ironically enough it was your thread, titled "Balanced." and here are some gems from it by you:

Jace wears a full dps PvE spec, as do most beamplars in Cyrodiil these days, so this is about as painful as a radiant will get.
One channel KOing the guy. lmfao Regardless of the target's level or gear or traits, this should not be tolerated.

I think the execute range needs to be narrowed to 35% or lower, and I think the damage should increase slowly until 25%, where it can increase rapidly to max at 20%.

Come to think of it, radiant spam is the ranged version of spambush, except radiant will actually kill you where spambush doesn't deal much damage on its own.

It was immediately apparent after the TG patch went live that they either undid the earlier damage nerfs to the ability or broke it in some other way.

RD is the laughing stock of good players, the poster-skill of mindless zerglings, and the first skill to roll off the tongue of many a frustrated player when asked what needs nerfs next. Well, that and Dark Flare.

That's just from one single thread Kena, sounds like you have far more problems with the skill than "it only needs its range nerfed." Dark flare apparently needs nerfing too because reasons?

vanzan · July 2016

I think It should be instant cast. 5 RD on me should take me down before I am able to purge and LOS and block.

On the other hand 5 executioners beating on me - JESUS

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Van_0S wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.

I mainly do PvE, believe me, this doesn't impact PvE at all
But no, this is mainly about PvP counters to the skill etc, its largely over performing in there at the moment, and what not. I also like Feng's idea.

Feng's as no idea of a magplar!
Don't agree with his post about templar because he doesn't have a character that's a magplar. If you want to agree with some one post then be certain that player as a magplar character in PvP.( that as earned the title captain, at least)

Edit:
No offence!
If your a PvE player then stay out of PvP, and dont make threads about nerfs to a class(in PvP) that you have no idea off.

You should edit your post and get rid of the last part. You just sound dumb
At this point I'm pretty sure almost everyone plays every part of the game

I have a pvp healer from a dominating red group as a main healer

I have a legate and a general in my guild too, and #1 in the trials on NA. That comment just lol people still have that mind set?

I had to backtrack to this post rq, because it's really ridiculous. PvE players staying out of PvP? Are you serious? The best players, in my opinion, are players who know the ins and outs of all aspects of the game. It allows those players to see things from all perspectives. I know sooo many good PvErs who are also beasts in PvP and vice versa.

I've cleared vMoL and every other single piece of content in PvE out there, and have PvP toons at AR32, AR28, AR26, AR24, AR21, AR20, and an AR18. Should I stay out of PvP and not discuss skill balance in PvP? -____-

Like I said, players who understand the game in its entirety have a more open mind to game balance.

Just meh.

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

vanzan wrote: »

I think I should be instant cast. 5 RD on me should take me down before I am able to purge and LOS and block.

On the other hand 5 executioners beating on me - JESUS

The Lizardman has spoken!

Nifty2g · July 2016

Dred76 wrote: »

I personally don't complain about WB or Snipe or any other spam. While initially I found it frustrating being on the receiving end of these skills, as I was usually stunned for the duration of said experience. I researched and changed my build and play style (as best as I could) to reduce that kind of impact. It's a learning process, which is more to my point.

I complained about Wrecking Blow spam, and they took my suggestion and actually added it into the game. Removed the Empower it did and gave it to the other skill

Nifty2g wrote: »

A lot of you have no idea why exactly Wrecking Blow is so strong, lemme enlighten you
The skill can be animation clipped as a channeled ability.

The skill applies Empower to itself, much like Dark Flare but Dark Flare is horrible mobility wise comparing them to each other.

Since this skill causes you to be off balanced/stunned if you have enough Champion Points then this skill will proc Exploiter in Champion System which increases your damage by 10%

You can not mitigate physical damage so you're getting hit by unmitigated physical damage.

So all in all ZOS really screwed up with this one and it still hasn't been adjusted for months and months. It's clearly an error on ZOS's end that has not been adjusted.

Want Wrecking Blow fixed? Easy, remove Empower and give us Physical Damage mitigation. Boom, I did it for you @Wrobel fix this skill because it's disgusting how many people are using it for their FOTM PvP 1vX videos

KenaPKK · July 2016

No bluffs. I settled on a range nerf since proposing it ages ago and have been 100% consistent since.

I still think the damage is absurd, though, and I'm not the only one. A range nerf would just be the simplest change, introducing counterplay without requiring compensatory buffs.

KenaPKK · July 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Van_0S wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.

I mainly do PvE, believe me, this doesn't impact PvE at all
But no, this is mainly about PvP counters to the skill etc, its largely over performing in there at the moment, and what not. I also like Feng's idea.

Feng's as no idea of a magplar!
Don't agree with his post about templar because he doesn't have a character that's a magplar. If you want to agree with some one post then be certain that player as a magplar character in PvP.( that as earned the title captain, at least)

Edit:
No offence!
If your a PvE player then stay out of PvP, and dont make threads about nerfs to a class(in PvP) that you have no idea off.

You should edit your post and get rid of the last part. You just sound dumb
At this point I'm pretty sure almost everyone plays every part of the game

I have a pvp healer from a dominating red group as a main healer

I have a legate and a general in my guild too, and #1 in the trials on NA. That comment just lol people still have that mind set?

I had to backtrack to this post rq, because it's really ridiculous. PvE players staying out of PvP? Are you serious? The best players, in my opinion, are players who know the ins and outs of all aspects of the game. It allows those players to see things from all perspectives. I know sooo many good PvErs who are also beasts in PvP and vice versa.

I've cleared vMoL and every other single piece of content in PvE out there, and have PvP toons at AR32, AR28, AR26, AR24, AR21, AR20, and an AR18. Should I stay out of PvP and not discuss skill balance in PvP? -____-

Like I said, players who understand the game in its entirety have a more open mind to game balance.

Just meh.

Preach it. 100% true lol

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

No bluffs. I settled on a range nerf since proposing it ages ago and have been 100% consistent since.

I still think the damage is absurd, though, and I'm not the only one. A range nerf would just be the simplest change, introducing counterplay without requiring compensatory buffs.

You've talked about nerfing both the damage and the execute % threshold. I just quoted you FFS. You may have settled on nerfing the range now, but this is the exact point I made earlier. Many of your crowd have vehemently argued one aspect needs to be nerfed, and then change to picking something else. If that aspect was truly broken in your eyes, then there should be consistency.

I've argued against you and others over why damage nerfs (as you've called for them) are unnecessary, and I've argued with others over why making it dodgeable again is a terrible idea. These same people now say "the only thing it ever needed was a range nerf." Maybe don't act so surprised when we have a hard time taking you seriously and giving weight to your points, who knows if you'll still be arguing them in a few weeks?