Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Zheg · July 2016

Jules wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.

Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.

Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.

I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.

Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.

Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.

I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.

I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.

I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.

I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach ) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.

I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.

And that's how you start a productive, mature conversation about class and skill balance. You speak to each other with respect and stick to the specific issue at hand rather than running off into tangents and insulting people's intelligence/play style/ect.

Thank you for your relevant opinion and eloquent expression of such. Agree 100%.

It's hard to stay so mature when people like yourself started the ball rolling months ago saying it needs to be dodgeable because all the good templars say so and anyone disagreeing is a baddie. That is the atmosphere YOU helped foster Jules. You do not get to act like you're the high road on this subject. Your silly video was linked earlier in this thread and other than lyar's thread was the beginning of this circus. Now months later you say it shouldn't be dodgeable because you were wrong and it does indeed wreck balance. Put yourself in one of the 'forumplar' shoes as you used to call them (and let's also point out the irony of the post I'm quoting as we do this...) and have to rehash the same logic over and over without ever actually having your points properly argued against because people would rather create a new thread every week for months straight and be the squeaky wheel. Put yourself in our shoes where we've been saying the same correct points for months and people are STILL saying it should be dodgeable. FFS most of us 'forumplars' took a long break and ignored the last 5 or so jesus beam threads and this insanity is still happening. Yeah, you're right, it doesn't put me in a patient mood to hear the same things from the same people all over again - even less so when their points are bad ones and/or have been handily argued against.

There were some very well-thought out explanations provided by Joy and others in lyar's original thread, and it's all drown out by the same people making the same terrible points and/or insults. How about this, when you all can address those eloquent points Joy made and actually provide proper counter-arguments to why they aren't relevant, then we can start this convo up again. Until then you aren't looking for productive discussions, you're looking for the same people to make the same points until ZOS caves.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Yup, that's how it's done. Bee confirmed not a forumplar.

I have been fond of this idea since a buddy had the idea on my ts. Cut the range, and RD remains strong but actually has risk involved -- comparable risk to other executes being dodgeable. Gotta say I like being able to reach people when they present such a significant threat as RD.

Fengrush's idea to eliminate the initial tick is worth considering as well. As is, RD functions as both an instant cast execute, like Impale, and the channel which it was intended to be. I venture to say...pick one? Not sure if making both changes would be too much.

KenaPKK · July 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

As I have said before if RD is balanced then why not make every other execute in the game undodgeable too?

Dred76 wrote: »

Tell ya what, when i get out of combat before I've run to the next keep we can talk about balancing...

Lol pretty true.

I get the same thing on my nightblade if I happen to press Rapid Regen ever.

Nothing compares to the amount of stuck in combat you get on a Templar...90% of my time is spent jogging behind anyone I'm with and getting ganked or attempted ganked in the backline T.T

I mean...I get the joke, but getting stuck in combat is from heals, not the class. I run a support, full heals utility mageblade in group, and I get stuck in combat just the same as you're talking about.

I feel a need to point out the obvious so readers who don't know better are not mislead.

ZOS pls fix stuck in combat.

KennanTheCold · July 2016

Somewhere on here someone (fengrush I think) asked is
someone if RD was fine in its current iteration. Short answer is yes it is.
We have people on here saying the range is way to high, if your being hit by RD from so far away try taking a few steps back.
Other people have said the counter play to RD is all well an good they can handle one or two, but not 3-5 especially when already fighting one or 2 in melee. That same scenario is applicable to any ranged attack, 3-5 snipers, dark flare, poison injection, even force pulse, crystal frags( even hard casts, I mean they are 3-5 of them at range)
The short of it is, RD is fine, it's a strong ability and arguably the best execute. It works as intended and isn't broken or "too" OP.

Plz excuse any spelling grammar or formatting, hard to post on a phone lol

Minno · July 2016

KennanTheCold wrote: »

Somewhere on here someone (fengrush I think) asked is
someone if RD was fine in its current iteration. Short answer is yes it is.
We have people on here saying the range is way to high, if your being hit by RD from so far away try taking a few steps back.
Other people have said the counter play to RD is all well an good they can handle one or two, but not 3-5 especially when already fighting one or 2 in melee. That same scenario is applicable to any ranged attack, 3-5 snipers, dark flare, poison injection, even force pulse, crystal frags( even hard casts, I mean they are 3-5 of them at range)
The short of it is, RD is fine, it's a strong ability and arguably the best execute. It works as intended and isn't broken or "too" OP.

Plz excuse any spelling grammar or formatting, hard to post on a phone lol

I'm another that agrees the skill is fine.
But this agreement comes from being a blazing shield Templar that uses high dmg attacks to distribute dmg around me.

Some of my favorite fights were when I was using RD to help kill tougher players around me. They knew I relied on BS to kill them but their zerg buddies helped potato a win for me.

And in 1v1 against a magplar, I strive for the fight to be equal health lost so that when RD is eventually used against me, I'll make it rain 5k - 9.5k BS return ticks till my enemy dies.

But in the end I die more to ranged attacks like snipe or cc abilities like crystal frags more than RD.

Hempyre · July 2016

@KenaPKK

True that it's heals that stick you, but temps get hit with that harder by default. And yes, it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

I think changing the range on beam would be death for it.

Its channeled, making it near melee range just lets everyone near enough jump on you, and short of a bar swap you're stuck in the animation. Anyone hit with a 10k+ beam did so on their death tick. No different than any other execute. While it appears to have a huge range, thats just the animation graphics after it was started while in proper range, no different than bow or any other ranged attack. You just see this one... Where it shines is "calling" the target.

Beam does average damage like any spamable until it hits execute range, which some complain about being 50%. Keep in mind the damage scales so it's not doing the damage any other execute does until the target health is low enough. So really, it's a spamable that "crits" then executes. How is that any different than what every other class does? Frankly as it's channeled there's actually less crit than other builds would see.

As far as making it dodgeable, let's address the elephant in the room...

Dodge rolling is ridiculous in it's current state. Yes I know it has an escalating cost but it shouldn't offer 100% dodge chance for the length of time it does. I've completely run dry on my sorc on this mechanic without doing a drop of damage. There should be counters, there should be more CC that cuts through this.

There's a nerf this or that thread from every player that's ever been killed by anything. All nerfs do is vanilla out the options, bad idea. Balance is relative to your choice of character, your play style, and your build, and frankly most of the players out there and especially those calling for nerfs to everything, don't have strong builds, and are not effectively using the combinations available. I get away from beam most of the time on any of my toons, some easier than other, but that's the point of having classes, variable strengths and weaknesses. interrupts, charge at a different player to get out of range, blink, invis, etc...

It's not that hard, but you do have to decide what tools you want on your loadout. It's on the player if they want to build for boom and then go down like a cheap date when they get targeted.

Is beam good? Yes it is.

Is it any better than any other "op" mechanic like dodge roll, or negate or NB stroking 20k+ out of stealth? No, it isn't.

L2P.

dashima · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

But having someone beam you in the back while you're trying to take on 1 or 2 people and having that person just spam beam on you is just absolutely pathetic. That is the main point of this thread, and I've done this to see what it's like, I know it's pathetic. And just shouldn't even be a thing.

Nifty! I can't believe you used me a test subject to see what it was like being a l2plar.

Personally I feel more strongly about a cloak/malubeth fix, magdk buff, and dat bombardencasesnare, but if they could just make the magplars stand a little closer so that things like deep breath interrupts/gap closing and such are possible, I would be very happy. It would hopefully provide a better counter against grouplars who are built solely to hit very hard radiants.
Everyone hates nbs that sit way back and spam snipe on you, right? RD is like the templar version of snipe now. lol.

Brb making gankplar.

Kas · July 2016

it's already the first skill i drop if i need something (e.g. mist form or undaunted healing orbs in group or whatever). the concept of the skill is just broken for pvp. a single target spell that is incredibly strong but very prone to interrupts. the description might as well read "Radiant Zergfest - use preferably when outnumbering the enemy"

dashima · July 2016

delete

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

As I have said before if RD is balanced then why not make every other execute in the game undodgeable too?

Dred76 wrote: »

Tell ya what, when i get out of combat before I've run to the next keep we can talk about balancing...

Lol pretty true.

I get the same thing on my nightblade if I happen to press Rapid Regen ever.

Nothing compares to the amount of stuck in combat you get on a Templar...90% of my time is spent jogging behind anyone I'm with and getting ganked or attempted ganked in the backline T.T

I mean...I get the joke, but getting stuck in combat is from heals, not the class. I run a support, full heals utility mageblade in group, and I get stuck in combat just the same as you're talking about.

I feel a need to point out the obvious so readers who don't know better are not mislead.

ZOS pls fix stuck in combat.

Chill out man, it's not that serious.

But, yes, please fix it.

Jules · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.

Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.

Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.

I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.

Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.

Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.

I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.

I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.

I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.

I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach ) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.

I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.

And that's how you start a productive, mature conversation about class and skill balance. You speak to each other with respect and stick to the specific issue at hand rather than running off into tangents and insulting people's intelligence/play style/ect.

Thank you for your relevant opinion and eloquent expression of such. Agree 100%.

It's hard to stay so mature when people like yourself started the ball rolling months ago saying it needs to be dodgeable because all the good templars say so and anyone disagreeing is a baddie. That is the atmosphere YOU helped foster Jules. You do not get to act like you're the high road on this subject. Your silly video was linked earlier in this thread and other than lyar's thread was the beginning of this circus. Now months later you say it shouldn't be dodgeable because you were wrong and it does indeed wreck balance. Put yourself in one of the 'forumplar' shoes as you used to call them (and let's also point out the irony of the post I'm quoting as we do this...) and have to rehash the same logic over and over without ever actually having your points properly argued against because people would rather create a new thread every week for months straight and be the squeaky wheel. Put yourself in our shoes where we've been saying the same correct points for months and people are STILL saying it should be dodgeable. FFS most of us 'forumplars' took a long break and ignored the last 5 or so jesus beam threads and this insanity is still happening. Yeah, you're right, it doesn't put me in a patient mood to hear the same things from the same people all over again - even less so when their points are bad ones and/or have been handily argued against.

There were some very well-thought out explanations provided by Joy and others in lyar's original thread, and it's all drown out by the same people making the same terrible points and/or insults. How about this, when you all can address those eloquent points Joy made and actually provide proper counter-arguments to why they aren't relevant, then we can start this convo up again. Until then you aren't looking for productive discussions, you're looking for the same people to make the same points until ZOS caves.

Find me a time when I ever said RD should be dodgeable.

In fact, I'll do you one better. Here is a quote of myself from March 14th, 2016.

Jules wrote: »

I have no issue with it being undodgeable as it has a range of viable counters.

Thanks.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

When other "toxic" and "unthoughtful" and"terrible game design" aspects such as fear, shuffle, bombard, cold harbor siege, insta-stealth, 100% damage avoidance, automatic/unpurgable snares, etc., are also addressed, then I'll be up for a conversation about RD.

I got news for you Nifty, if 5 NBs are ambush spamming you or 5 DKs dizzying blowing you, or 5 Templars puncturing sweeping you, you will die faster than from Jesus Beams. You PvP for a week and all of a sudden, you are the one to come up with the "solution" to RD. One that adds a disadvantageous mechanic that ZoS has intentionally designed there game not to have, and only slap that on Templars. No offense, but I'd bet Wrobel has more actual PvP logged time than you.

The reason why "Templar tears get riled up" is because people like you just walk into these forums as if you are someone some expert player who knows everything and what is best for everyone, and all that talk just amounts to nerf the crap out of the skill and class, but leave all the other "toxic" and "skilless" game mechanics and skills as they are.

I don't care how many toxic things there are in the game, there are many yes I know, but I have experience in Templars and I want to balance them out, so I'm going to make a thread about it.

I got news for you, in every single one of these threads I see you around defending the obviously broken and dumbest skill and easiest thing to do. I don't know why the *** you defend it, is it some sort of pride of being a Templar you feel like you have to defend every little thing even if you agree or not about it?

If you weren't so arrogant you would stop and realise how much the change to it I actually offered would not be a bad one, it gives no change in PvE or PvP, the only thing it would stop is having multiple beams on you at once to give the person some breathing room against it.

And honestly, I don't really give a *** how much game time I have, it doesn't discredit anything of what I say, that is just a pathetic way of thinking and you just make yourself look like an idiot. So and so has less game time than me, so therefore their opinion doesn't matter. Really? Do you see me going into your asinine guide to Maelstrom Arena and posting how little time in PvE you have and discredit every little thing?

At least think about some of the stuff before you post. And stop defending the obvious broken skill already, start coming up with ways to balance it before ZOS nerfs it into the ground, that is the whole point of the discussion, if the threads keep up and there is no solution to fix it. Then ZOS are just going to put it to the ground.

Zheg · July 2016

Jules wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.

Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.

Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.

I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.

Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.

Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.

I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.

I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.

I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.

I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach ) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.

I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.

And that's how you start a productive, mature conversation about class and skill balance. You speak to each other with respect and stick to the specific issue at hand rather than running off into tangents and insulting people's intelligence/play style/ect.

Thank you for your relevant opinion and eloquent expression of such. Agree 100%.

It's hard to stay so mature when people like yourself started the ball rolling months ago saying it needs to be dodgeable because all the good templars say so and anyone disagreeing is a baddie. That is the atmosphere YOU helped foster Jules. You do not get to act like you're the high road on this subject. Your silly video was linked earlier in this thread and other than lyar's thread was the beginning of this circus. Now months later you say it shouldn't be dodgeable because you were wrong and it does indeed wreck balance. Put yourself in one of the 'forumplar' shoes as you used to call them (and let's also point out the irony of the post I'm quoting as we do this...) and have to rehash the same logic over and over without ever actually having your points properly argued against because people would rather create a new thread every week for months straight and be the squeaky wheel. Put yourself in our shoes where we've been saying the same correct points for months and people are STILL saying it should be dodgeable. FFS most of us 'forumplars' took a long break and ignored the last 5 or so jesus beam threads and this insanity is still happening. Yeah, you're right, it doesn't put me in a patient mood to hear the same things from the same people all over again - even less so when their points are bad ones and/or have been handily argued against.

There were some very well-thought out explanations provided by Joy and others in lyar's original thread, and it's all drown out by the same people making the same terrible points and/or insults. How about this, when you all can address those eloquent points Joy made and actually provide proper counter-arguments to why they aren't relevant, then we can start this convo up again. Until then you aren't looking for productive discussions, you're looking for the same people to make the same points until ZOS caves.

Find me a time when I ever said RD should be dodgeable.

In fact, I'll do you one better. Here is a quote of myself from March 14th, 2016.

Jules wrote: »

I have no issue with it being undodgeable as it has a range of viable counters.

Thanks.

If i care enough later when im not on my phone maybe ill take the plunge and look through jules' old posts. All i seem to recall is you trying to make the argument that because a few of your templar friends agreed with you, that it meant all the good templars say one thing and all the rest were 'forumplars' and baddies. Those discussions were so mature and productive.

Drdeath20 · July 2016

The only way to fix radiant properly is to first fix dodge roll so that once you dodge roll it's cost doubles from the previous roll within 3 seconds of last cast. Then make radiant dodge able but once it is attached you cannot dodge roll out of its channel.

Lucky28 · July 2016

Drdeath20 wrote: »

The only way to fix radiant properly is to first fix dodge roll so that once you dodge roll it's cost doubles from the previous roll within 3 seconds of last cast. Then make radiant dodge able but once it is attached you cannot dodge roll out of its channel.

Yeah, then we can all just stand around and die to bombard. i would be more in favor of a solution that doesn't break something else in the process.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

This again?

were still beating this dead horse?

RD is fine, it actually does what its supposed to. leave it alone. There are other far more important issues such as being perma rooted, snare stacking, magicka builds lack of snare and root immunity, etc....

KenaPKK · July 2016

Dred76 wrote: »

True that it's heals that stick you, but temps get hit with that harder by default. And yes, it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

All classes can heal. People just get caught up on Templar dedicated healers.

Dred76 wrote: »

I think changing the range on beam would be death for it.

Its channeled, making it near melee range just lets everyone near enough jump on you, and short of a bar swap you're stuck in the animation.

No one has said to make it near melee range. You're exaggerating.

And the point of shortening the range is precisely to allow the Templar to be jumped on if they don't kill the target. If you beam someone at too high health, the risk of entering a high damage channel should be that you get jumped on and cced or damaged. Either take the cc and break out, block cancel the beam, weapon swap, or roll dodge out. You have options. It's called risk and reward n

Dred76 wrote: »

Anyone hit with a 10k+ beam did so on their death tick. No different than any other execute. While it appears to have a huge range, thats just the animation graphics after it was started while in proper range, no different than bow or any other ranged attack. You just see this one... Where it shines is "calling" the target.

Except where bow projectiles are dodgeable. And beam's range is not some illusion. lol It does in fact reach 41 meters. We just want beamtards to be at risk when choosing to spam like idiots. Put them within range of retaliation.

Dred76 wrote: »

Beam does average damage like any spamable until it hits execute range, which some complain about being 50%. Keep in mind the damage scales so it's not doing the damage any other execute does until the target health is low enough. So really, it's a spamable that "crits" then executes. How is that any different than what every other class does? Frankly as it's channeled there's actually less crit than other builds would see.

Wait, am I spending my time picking apart a beamtard's post? Radiant Destruction is not a spammable dps ability. Do not spam it on people above execute range.

And 50% health is a stupid execute threshold for a ranged ability, especially an undodgeable channel that you can just stick on people while they're in combat.

Dred76 wrote: »

As far as making it dodgeable, let's address the elephant in the room...

Dodge rolling is ridiculous in it's current state. Yes I know it has an escalating cost but it shouldn't offer 100% dodge chance for the length of time it does. I've completely run dry on my sorc on this mechanic without doing a drop of damage. There should be counters, there should be more CC that cuts through this.

We've more or less come to a consensus that RD being undodgeable is fine.

And dodge roll is fine. Streak, fear, fossilize, and toppling charge will all cc through it. Sweeps and RD will damage through it as well as dots. Like...what?

Dred76 wrote: »

There's a nerf this or that thread from every player that's ever been killed by anything. All nerfs do is vanilla out the options, bad idea.

No, balance ensures decision making and counterplay and actually promotes variety. In an imbalanced setting, players are at a distinct disadvantage if not playing what's op. In the live game, for example, if you're not playing a heavy armor Malubeth magplar, you're not performing optimally.

Dred76 wrote: »

Balance is relative to your choice of character, your play style, and your build.

Wrong. Your class and build determine what strengths, weaknesses, and trade offs you have. Balance ensures that you have some assortment of both strengths and weaknesses, but not that any one of those is overbearingly strong. Reread the thread for arguments regarding RD's imbalance.

Dred76 wrote: »

And frankly most of the players out there and especially those calling for nerfs to everything, don't have strong builds, and are not effectively using the combinations available. I get away from beam most of the time on any of my toons, some easier than other, but that's the point of having classes, variable strengths and weaknesses. interrupts, charge at a different player to get out of range, blink, invis, etc...

It's not that hard, but you do have to decide what tools you want on your loadout. It's on the player if they want to build for boom and then go down like a cheap date when they get targeted.

Is beam good? Yes it is.

Is it any better than any other "op" mechanic like dodge roll, or negate or NB stroking 20k+ out of stealth? No, it isn't.

L2P.

I loled.

Force-Siphon · July 2016

I like what bee said about the range, some people say bashing doesn't matter but i do it when a Templar is stupid enough to beam me in bash range, and it's a great counter...if stam had the ability every time to gap close and bash then it would be more give or take I think it's a decent compromise...and I would also like to say since people want to mention the greatness that is sorcerer:

BUFF SORCS NERF NIFTY

Jsmalls · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

I start to put this vid in every discussion about Radiant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em46ajNfuTU

incoming comments about how blab uses structured entropy making this inaccurate even though it really doesn't matter

FFS nifty, how about incoming comments about how jules even admitted that video was pure garbage. The premise was moronic, there were no actual controls or baselines for stats, no accounting for weaves ... for someone that spends so much time on those details for pve, your bias on pvp is glaring. Youd never hold that video as proof of anything in pve, but this fits your narrative on pvp so youll continue spewing the BS this vid serves up? Very disappointing.

On the 'experienced players and templars', most of them play stam (and want the skill gone for obvious reasons) and many of them run in the same circle and are afraid of being labeled as a 'baddie' on this topic if they dont blindly agree.

On your suggestion, the skill does have an IC, its called lag, youd know about that if you had more than 20 days pvp time in total.

On the skill, any nerfs to RD need to be counterbalanced with nerfs elsewhere to the moronic stam fotm builds. Heres a thought, if all of those 'experienced' players ran with more than 21k hp theyd be in execute range far less and not have as many issues with the damage.

The better way to balance the skill is to change the morph where damage scales based on magicka to something providing utility.

Stam is already on top, you 'experienced players' can hide your heads in the sand all you want, but removing one of the last threats to stam builds does NOT, in fact, mean youre going for balance. You would not be balancing jesus beam, youd be unbalancing the checks on stamina builds.

You really took that post? I mean really, why do you think I said it, probably because it's a joke and everyone says it when it's linked, not sure if you actually thought I was serious.

As for your post, I'm not asking for damage nerfs nor am I asking for it to be dodgeable, thought about it but you're right, which is why I didn't say it. Think I said something on page 1 about that

As for the icd, seems like you didn't have much to disagree on but to try and be funny with a remark. And no all I have to do to feel the lag is step foot into the main campaign with 24 zerg groups, why do you think I stopped playing? It just instantly crashes me.
Oceanic pvp has picked up a considerable amount at least

This is now the 35th+ thread on jesus beam. The fact that you feel the need to start a brand new one for pvp balance when you admit you don't even pvp often is silly.

Of course you don't want to touch the damage, you really only care about the implications for pve for obvious reasons. Anyone that continues to parrot the 'make it dodgeable' line is either biased and looking to have their own stam build be made stronger, or is oblivious to how far that goes to upsetting the checks and balances currently in game for stam builds. Are they optimal? No. But the checks on stam builds are few. As I said before, until more checks on stam builds are introduced, nerfs to jesus beam go far further towards upsetting the overall balance than they go towards 'balancing the skill'.

The skill is already highly frustrating to cast in most modest lag, which is the majority of pvp. I find dark flare even more frustrating to cast in that. Adding an internal cooldown would both make that situation even more frustrating, and ultimately do absolutely nothing because it takes almost a full second before the skill can be recast in lag right now. So as I said, there is already an internal cool-down for practical purposes because of how poorly the game performs.

To your larger viewpoint on people sitting back and spamming it, I feel the same way about snipes. They are far more dangerous to my templar than someone jesus beaming me, but you don't see me spamming the forums saying snipe needs nerfs and should be purgeable mid air or something silly like the usual suspects do for jesus beam. I'd also (again, because this is the 35th+ thread on the topic) repeat that a sorc keeping curse on you, keeping fury on you, and dropping a frag from max range is far more dangerous to most players (and please don't try to make some asinine argument how that requires so much more skill to do).

@Zheg
Deadly to those who have never learner how to counter it. Firstly when you get cursed you have 3 and a half seconds to react, and that purple spell traveling at you at a rather low rate of speed you should probably hold up block, or roll. That combo is 10x easier to counter.

And I'm sick and tired of hearing RD has all these counters. It's not a problem in a 1 v 1. But you try weaving in-between 6 people to bash a Templar 30 to 40 meters away and let me know how it goes. Support purge is garbage, it's way too costly and you'll be out of magicka very quickly considering they can reapply it without cooldown, not to mention it ridiculous to slot an ability to counter 1 ability it the game . With all the roots and snares LoSing it becomes a chore it at all possible, as a Magicka Sorc I can choose to roll dodge the root and get CC'd and die or shield through the root (I usually pick the 2nd).

I'll give them RD has become a risk/reward. Only because they become my first call out because I don't feel like getting fried by that ridiculous OP J beam.

DocFrost72 · July 2016

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Force-Siphon wrote: »

I like what bee said about the range, some people say bashing doesn't matter but i do it when a Templar is stupid enough to beam me in bash range, and it's a great counter...if stam had the ability every time to gap close and bash then it would be more give or take I think it's a decent compromise...and I would also like to say since people want to mention the greatness that is sorcerer:

BUFF SORCS NERF NIFTY

I agree, give sorcs Jesus beam. It was on the wrong class all along.

caeliusstarbreaker · July 2016

My question is... If Jesus beam is the hard counter to stam builds, then what is this hard counter to magicka builds?

Before we answer that..... What are we defining as a hard counter?

DocFrost72 · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Force-Siphon wrote: »

I like what bee said about the range, some people say bashing doesn't matter but i do it when a Templar is stupid enough to beam me in bash range, and it's a great counter...if stam had the ability every time to gap close and bash then it would be more give or take I think it's a decent compromise...and I would also like to say since people want to mention the greatness that is sorcerer:

BUFF SORCS NERF NIFTY

I agree, give sorcs Jesus beam. It was on the wrong class all along.

I am actually fine with each class having a channel that cannot be roll dodged.

Weren't we talking about balancing RD? Let's let it loose, since there isn't a gameplay mechanic broken with it.

Nifty2g · July 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

DocFrost72 · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

FENGRUSH · July 2016

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

Nifty2g · July 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

DocFrost72 · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Nifty2g · July 2016

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

DocFrost72 · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

*Sigh* So I see we went from "let's fix toxic behavior" back to "Nerf RD, it's too powerful".

There's really no having a discussion with you, is there OP? If I recall correctly, you even said you weren't calling for a nerf to the skill and you recognized it's shortcomings, which made it fair play.

But hey, keep farming those easy likes.

Where have I said nerf the damage? I haven't said that once. I said in it's current form how it is behaving, it is clearly over powered, and knowing ZOS, they don't know how to handle things and will give it a damage nerf if the community doesn't agree upon something soon.
Giving it a damage nerf I believe will make the class have less damage than it already does. I'm suggesting a cooldown to reduce the amount of beams on a target at once to give them some breathing room and some time to actually counter it. With doing this I think it is the best way to deal with it, I do like the idea of reduced range too, will stop people from sitting in the back doing nothing but beams.

A cool down will do nothing to stop multiple beams, which is your problem. It will stop beam spam from one person...barely. not to mention ZOS has clearly said they do not want cooldowns, and we can see this by the fact that 90% of in game abilities are instantly cast.

And a cool down will ruin PvE DPS, which you claim you don't want to do.

So no, I don't think you are tackling this situation in a way that fixes something you see as wrong.

Radiant channel time is 2.9 seconds, having a cooldown will largely reduce how much damage you are taking by it at one time, unless there are Templars in group specifically timing their beams at the same time. Think about it more logically.

You shouldn't really be spamming radiant in PvE in any scenario, you should be keeping your DoTs up and weaving in between, so it wont hurt PvE at all

I'm not reapplying sun fire, entropy, shards etc every 3 seconds, and FENGRUSH is right (oh gods I said it), Cooldowns are not ZOS's MO. And if multiple beamers are hitting you, easy solution. L.O.S.

You know, the way you normally deal with range when already fighting.

Lets not turn this into a PvE rotation, but no you don't reapply shards or entropy, you should be using potions. You reapply vampires bane and wall of elements, proc the spell damage enchantment on your swords. If you're not doing that then you're not doing it right.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I do like this idea too

I just think it's hilarious that people are coming in here defending how it works currently like nothing is bad about it, why not also offer solutions to balance it without not having to reduce the damage it does as a whole.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

ZOS will never implement cooldowns on skills. Best you can hope for in that respect is penalty on recast, which does nothing here.

Take away initial insta tick - scale damage on backend as beam holds to equalize the total DPS (doesnt impact PVE). Lets do it wrobel.

I also like this idea.

I think more people need to actually come up with solutions on balancing it out without having to nerf it's damage as a whole

I was more making a point that you have a 6 or 8 or even 12 second cooldown on dots, I don't do templar MDPS. And you made this a PvE discussion by asking for a change to a move. Unless whatever change you apply is only in the battle spirit buff, every change will impact PvE.

And I like Fengrush's idea as well, but if you get 3 beams latched onto you, you're still going to take 3 beams worth of damage all at once, and if you dipped into execute range when any of them was destined to tick, it is still game over.

That said, if you're interested in balancing the move, consider the wide scale applications of a change to any ability in all aspects of the game. I don't dislike you and I don't want you to feel this is personal, but I am defending a move I have literally zero issues with because I learned how to deal with it with my particular build.