Maintenance for the week of February 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – February 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
· [COMPLETE] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – February 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
Lets Balance Radiant Destruction
-
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
I've never ever joined the "templars are useless" chants that were so common on these forums before the TG patch, but I'm sorry Jules, this is not a /micdrop.
If you just remove RD from the templar skillset, you basically have the 1.5 templar, something nobody argued was OP, without Blinding Flashes and a high scaling Blazing Shield.
Some of the skills you list there, like Channeled Focus and Javelin are better than 1.5. But some of them are worse, like Breathe of Life and the "MIGHTY PURIFY."
And I'm not even sure some of those things are worth pointing out as templar strengths: Nova (totally reliant on ally crush) <<<< Negate and Crescent Sweep is a poor damage ultimate. In general, templar ultimates are too niche, too reliant on others, too underwhelming. I don't use any of them for PvP or PvE.
I do think that as of right now, Templars are the strongest class. But I think this is more so because of changes made to other classes and the overall meta (actually thats more true of magicka templars. Stamplars have received mechanical buffs). The shield change means that sorcerers can no longer have 24-7-365 uptime on their shields and IMHO the (terrible) changes to the animation system has really undermined the amount of actions they can do between global cooldowns. DKs still have no in-class gap closer, still a terrible self heal, still no burst. Stam DKs are still put out good damage, but most of the DKs are I come across are tanks that struggle killing people. NBs still have a dangerous burst and an overall solid and versatile class, but that burst was a better fit in 1.6. With all the ways heals can stack now, no class can better take advantage than that than temps. With all the debuffs flying around (particularly healing), no class removes them better than temps. With RD being as dangerous as it is, no class can better handle that threat than temps. The changes to the best monster sets (Malbeth and Skoria) have benefited the way temps play more than any other class.
I would actually argue that (magicka) templars were at their strongest mechanically just before the IC release. - Purify purged meteors, BoL had an extra heal and no LOS, I got better self heals from sweeps, RD did moar damage and wasn't block by LOS, Dawnbreaker of Smiting was magicka thing, hell even Eclipse was a semi-useful skill back then. But they were usually perceived as third best in class pecking order behind NBs and Sorcs (correctly IMHO). But the game has changed a lot since then and those changes are what empowered templars. They maybe FOTM now, but all it takes is one patch to push them back down to third. And if RD is eviscerated because some players think they ought to always have single target immunity by pressing a button, then the many threads about "useless templars" will reappear.Edited by Joy_Division on July 9, 2016 4:58PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.5 -
Lokey0024✭✭✭✭✭So leave it the same, charge the cast cost on each tick. Screws over pve players.
Make it dodge roll broken. Makes it weak.
Reduce range. They have to waddle up 10 steps and cast instead of from the middle of a nerd herd. Win1 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.
Level of difficulty is the same? You need to put detonation then curse then endless fury then frag or entopry then frag. It's clicking 4-5 buttons against smahing 1 buttton. Also there is huge difference in performing dmg in that rotations. Deto cast time is 1,8 sec it'll explode after 4 sec so You need almost 6 seconds to do any dmg and enemie can just hold block on half a seconds in proper moment and whole burst is wasted and You'll need another 6 seconds.And interrupting detonation is much more effective then interrupting Radiant due to fact detonation needs to be fully casted to deal dmg. Enemie can also purge deto+curse+endless fury or roll dodge a frag and burst is wasted. on 2nd hand You compare Radiant ,,rotation" which needs 3 sec to deal full dmg but it starts to do dmg instant with ticks starting from the moment You press the button. That's not the discussion topic so dont quote me I just wanted to make that clear. I dont say deto combo is uneffective or extremly hard to use but lets be honest it cannot be compared to radiant spam if we're talking about difficulty level.Edited by juhasman on July 9, 2016 5:52PM3 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.
Level of difficulty is the same? You need to put detonation then curse then endless fury then frag or entopry then frag. It's clicking 4-5 buttons against smahing 1 buttton. Also there is huge difference in performing dmg in that rotations. Deto cast time is 1,8 sec it'll explode after 4 sec so You need almost 6 seconds to do any dmg and enemie can just hold block on half a seconds in proper moment and whole burst is wasted and You'll need another 6 seconds.And interrupting detonation is much more effective then interrupting Radiant due to fact detonation needs to be fully casted to deal dmg. Enemie can also purge deto+curse+endless fury or roll dodge a frag and burst is wasted. on 2nd hand You compare Radiant ,,rotation" which needs 3 sec to deal full dmg but it starts to do dmg instant with ticks starting from the moment You press the button. That's not the discussion topic so dont quote me I just wanted to make that clear. I dont say deto combo is uneffective or extremly hard to use but lets be honest it cannot be compared to radiant spam if we're talking about difficulty level.
Plus the fact that templars literally reserve full bars for healing/survival while maintaining an extremely effective offensive skill in combat that isnt situational reserved for targets below 25%. Thats really the point of everything here.
Templars end up being the hardest thing to get rid of outside of full block tanks - and they remain a threat. As a result, templar has been by and far the highest reroll and filling out as a majority in many large groups.4 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.
Level of difficulty is the same? You need to put detonation then curse then endless fury then frag or entopry then frag. It's clicking 4-5 buttons against smahing 1 buttton. Also there is huge difference in performing dmg in that rotations. Deto cast time is 1,8 sec it'll explode after 4 sec so You need almost 6 seconds to do any dmg and enemie can just hold block on half a seconds in proper moment and whole burst is wasted and You'll need another 6 seconds.And interrupting detonation is much more effective then interrupting Radiant due to fact detonation needs to be fully casted to deal dmg. Enemie can also purge deto+curse+endless fury or roll dodge a frag and burst is wasted. on 2nd hand You compare Radiant ,,rotation" which needs 3 sec to deal full dmg but it starts to do dmg instant with ticks starting from the moment You press the button. That's not the discussion topic so dont quote me I just wanted to make that clear. I dont say deto combo is uneffective or extremly hard to use but lets be honest it cannot be compared to radiant spam if we're talking about difficulty level.
Plus the fact that templars literally reserve full bars for healing/survival while maintaining an extremely effective offensive skill in combat that isnt situational reserved for targets below 25%. Thats really the point of everything here.
Templars end up being the hardest thing to get rid of outside of full block tanks - and they remain a threat. As a result, templar has been by and far the highest reroll and filling out as a majority in many large groups.
Hmm someone also thinks BoL+ritual combo is too strong? OMG i did not say that (off topic war started).0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Anyone fooling themselves into thinking prox'ing up before using an ability and then ult is a l33t demonstration of skill needs a reality check. Many of the common complaints I see is that jesus beam can kill you if you let it tick for a long duration and it shouldn't have the kind of power. Letting it tick like that is far less efficient that using regular skills and weaves to lower your target's hp first, and THEN jesus beaming. The point I made wasn't that you should compare jesus beam to 3 or 4 skills as a combo, it was made to give a reality check to the people claiming jesus beam is SOOOO easy and using 3 or 4 skills is SOOOO hard. It's not. ESO combat is not that difficult. Hell, you could macro your burst combo if you really wanted and have it be a single button.
Are we going to claim 2 WB's and a dawnbreaker is insane skill? Shall we really take these discussions to that level of absurdity? Yes, jesus beam is one skill that if used at high health and cast multiple times can perform the same damage as a burst rotation but over a longer time. So can SA or WB or hell even the wet noodle whip. It's never efficient for a templar to jesus beam at high health, just because you see people doing it doesn't mean it's optimal. I see sorcs hardcasting frags alllllll the time, does that mean its optimal and needs to be nerfed? Please.
Edit: actually, that's a brilliant idea. Considering you can macro in this game unimpeded and some of the l33t streamers do it, pressing the one macro button is too much damage and needs nerfing according to many of the people in here, one button is too easy, right? 2-3 buttons is leagues harder, even though the 2-3 button route lets you block, dodge roll, react and change plans. You guys hate jesus beam mechanics because it's a channel. You cannot have it do the same damage or work the same way as regular skills because they AREN'T channels and don't suffer from the same drawbacks. You are trying to make jesus beam the same as impale while one is a channeled skill and the other is not, it's moronic.Edited by Zheg on July 9, 2016 6:21PM3 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.
Level of difficulty is the same? You need to put detonation then curse then endless fury then frag or entopry then frag. It's clicking 4-5 buttons against smahing 1 buttton. Also there is huge difference in performing dmg in that rotations. Deto cast time is 1,8 sec it'll explode after 4 sec so You need almost 6 seconds to do any dmg and enemie can just hold block on half a seconds in proper moment and whole burst is wasted and You'll need another 6 seconds.And interrupting detonation is much more effective then interrupting Radiant due to fact detonation needs to be fully casted to deal dmg. Enemie can also purge deto+curse+endless fury or roll dodge a frag and burst is wasted. on 2nd hand You compare Radiant ,,rotation" which needs 3 sec to deal full dmg but it starts to do dmg instant with ticks starting from the moment You press the button. That's not the discussion topic so dont quote me I just wanted to make that clear. I dont say deto combo is uneffective or extremly hard to use but lets be honest it cannot be compared to radiant spam if we're talking about difficulty level.
Plus the fact that templars literally reserve full bars for healing/survival while maintaining an extremely effective offensive skill in combat that isnt situational reserved for targets below 25%. Thats really the point of everything here.
Templars end up being the hardest thing to get rid of outside of full block tanks - and they remain a threat. As a result, templar has been by and far the highest reroll and filling out as a majority in many large groups.
How many stam builds have bow backbar loaded up with pure heals and utility? Are you telling me stam builds don't have extremely effective offensive skills in combat? Please, look at what you just said and find a moment of clarity to realize the utter bias.
If thats 'really the point of everything here', then thank you for demonstrating that there isnt really a point and the hysteria surrounding the skill is really just about bias.Edited by Zheg on July 9, 2016 6:36PM4 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭
My Templar is anything but vulnerable when casting a beam.Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Everyone has seen the 2k crit ticks jesus beam does at full health - im pretty sure youd do equal if not greater damage weaving a mages wrath at that point. The only time RD will start to outpace is when you get into the 25-40 ish range where RD begins its ramp up. Actually, this would be a halfway viable followup to jules video. Weave a mage's wrath, have the same magicka and spell dmg pool as a jesus beamer, do it with and without CP, and against someone running the 21k hp builds you see all the time and against someone running closer to 27k-29k hp and see the differences. I'd expect jesus beam to win that, but I'd also expect the ttk to be far closer than everyone thinks, and I think that's ok considering you can block cast on the sorc and use other skills in between in reality.
The comparison you made with a sorc using 4 attacks is just silly. A sorc needs that curse explosion and wrath proc to happen at the same time an instant cast frag hits and CCs. That requires you to get a frag proc and the opponent to not block, dodge, reflect, or be using shuffle.
The beaming Templar just hits one button. If I'm attacked, I can either wait for the beam to complete, or cancel the beam and heal to full.Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider1 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭
Or wait 3 weeks wear cyrodills light and spam it with 1 hand while drinking tea with otherCinnamon_Spider wrote: »
The beaming Templar just hits one button. If I'm attacked, I can either wait for the beam to complete, or cancel the beam and heal to full.
Edited by juhasman on July 9, 2016 6:57PM0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.
Level of difficulty is the same? You need to put detonation then curse then endless fury then frag or entopry then frag. It's clicking 4-5 buttons against smahing 1 buttton. Also there is huge difference in performing dmg in that rotations. Deto cast time is 1,8 sec it'll explode after 4 sec so You need almost 6 seconds to do any dmg and enemie can just hold block on half a seconds in proper moment and whole burst is wasted and You'll need another 6 seconds.And interrupting detonation is much more effective then interrupting Radiant due to fact detonation needs to be fully casted to deal dmg. Enemie can also purge deto+curse+endless fury or roll dodge a frag and burst is wasted. on 2nd hand You compare Radiant ,,rotation" which needs 3 sec to deal full dmg but it starts to do dmg instant with ticks starting from the moment You press the button. That's not the discussion topic so dont quote me I just wanted to make that clear. I dont say deto combo is uneffective or extremly hard to use but lets be honest it cannot be compared to radiant spam if we're talking about difficulty level.
Plus the fact that templars literally reserve full bars for healing/survival while maintaining an extremely effective offensive skill in combat that isnt situational reserved for targets below 25%. Thats really the point of everything here.
Templars end up being the hardest thing to get rid of outside of full block tanks - and they remain a threat. As a result, templar has been by and far the highest reroll and filling out as a majority in many large groups.
If thats 'really the point of everything here', then thank you for demonstrating that there isnt really a point and the hysteria surrounding the skill is really just about bias.
Are you actually fine with how radiant is in current form?3 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Cyrodiils Light not even required for that.
Or wait 3 weeks wear cyrodills light and spam it with 1 hand while drinking tea with otherCinnamon_Spider wrote: »
The beaming Templar just hits one button. If I'm attacked, I can either wait for the beam to complete, or cancel the beam and heal to full.Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
My Templar is anything but vulnerable when casting a beam.Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Everyone has seen the 2k crit ticks jesus beam does at full health - im pretty sure youd do equal if not greater damage weaving a mages wrath at that point. The only time RD will start to outpace is when you get into the 25-40 ish range where RD begins its ramp up. Actually, this would be a halfway viable followup to jules video. Weave a mage's wrath, have the same magicka and spell dmg pool as a jesus beamer, do it with and without CP, and against someone running the 21k hp builds you see all the time and against someone running closer to 27k-29k hp and see the differences. I'd expect jesus beam to win that, but I'd also expect the ttk to be far closer than everyone thinks, and I think that's ok considering you can block cast on the sorc and use other skills in between in reality.
The comparison you made with a sorc using 4 attacks is just silly. A sorc needs that curse explosion and wrath proc to happen at the same time an instant cast frag hits and CCs. That requires you to get a frag proc and the opponent to not block, dodge, reflect, or be using shuffle.
The beaming Templar just hits one button. If I'm attacked, I can either wait for the beam to complete, or cancel the beam and heal to full.
Come on, please. The beaming templar just hits one button and also hopes it doesn't get interrupted, LoS'd, purged, healed through, blocked, just like the laundry list you gave for the sorc. My point before was that timing the burst is NOT hard, and though slightly more difficult than letting a jesus beam tick, it's like saying doing a bicep curl with a 7 pound dumbbell is harder than doing it with a 5 pound dumbbell. Level of difficulty is a poor excuse when most of the combat in ESO is faceroll easy.1 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »
Cyrodiils Light not even required for that.
Or wait 3 weeks wear cyrodills light and spam it with 1 hand while drinking tea with otherCinnamon_Spider wrote: »
The beaming Templar just hits one button. If I'm attacked, I can either wait for the beam to complete, or cancel the beam and heal to full.
If You want to look at screen then yes. But who would watse time for that when You can watch some movie on 2nd screen
0 -
Samuel_Bantien✭✭✭Basically...
If ZoS nerfs Sorc it will fix Jesus Beam?Zaxon
PC NA
Ebonheart:
Magicka Dragonknight: Suedoú
Magicka Nightblade: Suedou
Magicka Sorcerer: Suedoe1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.
Level of difficulty is the same? You need to put detonation then curse then endless fury then frag or entopry then frag. It's clicking 4-5 buttons against smahing 1 buttton. Also there is huge difference in performing dmg in that rotations. Deto cast time is 1,8 sec it'll explode after 4 sec so You need almost 6 seconds to do any dmg and enemie can just hold block on half a seconds in proper moment and whole burst is wasted and You'll need another 6 seconds.And interrupting detonation is much more effective then interrupting Radiant due to fact detonation needs to be fully casted to deal dmg. Enemie can also purge deto+curse+endless fury or roll dodge a frag and burst is wasted. on 2nd hand You compare Radiant ,,rotation" which needs 3 sec to deal full dmg but it starts to do dmg instant with ticks starting from the moment You press the button. That's not the discussion topic so dont quote me I just wanted to make that clear. I dont say deto combo is uneffective or extremly hard to use but lets be honest it cannot be compared to radiant spam if we're talking about difficulty level.
Plus the fact that templars literally reserve full bars for healing/survival while maintaining an extremely effective offensive skill in combat that isnt situational reserved for targets below 25%. Thats really the point of everything here.
Templars end up being the hardest thing to get rid of outside of full block tanks - and they remain a threat. As a result, templar has been by and far the highest reroll and filling out as a majority in many large groups.
If thats 'really the point of everything here', then thank you for demonstrating that there isnt really a point and the hysteria surrounding the skill is really just about bias.
Are you actually fine with how radiant is in current form?
I run higher health than the majority of the people complaining about jesus beam and have a good capacity to keep myself alive with healing ward and harness magicka (yes, most of the time I don't even bother using HtD because it doesn't react quickly enough, how about that?). Jesus beam is not my poison. In fact it's one the things my build excels against. I'm vulnerable to stam builds, magplars are nothing to me. In that context, I'm absolutely fine with the skill in its current form, and absolutely fine with other builds struggling with it the same amount I struggle with a stam build in my face.
I absolutely think the skill should be tweaked, but not in any of the ways you all want it destroyed. I said multiple times I think the first step is to change the morph first to providing a utility gap that the templar suffers from elsewhere, or to at least give incentive to run the healing returned version. I'd also emphasize that this is hardly a pressing issue regardless of what the hysterical stam builds feel. I leveled a stamplar at the beginning of DB and struggled immensely with jesus beam until I unlocked vigor, and then ... it put significant pressure on my build, but I was able to manage just fine. I was able to objectively look at what I was strong against, and accept that this one piece of the meta made me weak. Rock. Paper. Effing Scissors FFS.
I also don't find I die when a zerg chases me any more to jesus beam than I do to whatever other garbage they're spamming. Considering how many blue and red groups tab target me, I feel like I should be able to speak with some authority on being chased by groups and mega zergs. I don't feel like that should ever be what determines balance in a game, and none of you have yet to provide a convincing argument for why 1v(excessive)X should be the pinnacle of balancing objectives.Edited by Zheg on July 9, 2016 7:15PM3 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.
Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.
Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.
I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.
Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.
Edited by DisgracefulMind on July 9, 2016 7:24PMUnfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.4 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.
Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.
Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.
I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.
Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.
Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.
I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.4 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »When other "toxic" and "unthoughtful" and"terrible game design" aspects such as fear, shuffle, bombard, cold harbor siege, insta-stealth, 100% damage avoidance, automatic/unpurgable snares, etc., are also addressed, then I'll be up for a conversation about RD.
Note that we've all agreed that Bombard is a high priority issue as well as RD, and that many of us don't like 100% damage avoidance passive dodge in a game with active dodge. That is an entirely different conversation, though. Also the only unpurgeable snares that I'm aware of are Winterborne and Bahraha's Curse procs. Are you arguing that they are more problematic than RD? We need more snare immunity options for magicka, but that argument isn't related to RD either. "Automatic" snares are....um I'm pretty sure any ability should be automatic is you push the button. Aaaand the rest of your list is constructive to the game aside from some bugs, like failed cc breaks, but that's unrelated too.Joy_Division wrote: »I got news for you Nifty, if 5 NBs are ambush spamming you or 5 DKs dizzying blowing you, or 5 Templars puncturing sweeping you, you will die faster than from Jesus Beams. You PvP for a week and all of a sudden, you are the one to come up with the "solution" to RD. One that adds a disadvantageous mechanic that ZoS has intentionally designed there game not to have, and only slap that on Templars. No offense, but I'd bet Wrobel has more actual PvP logged time than you.
Not true. Fighting against 5 dudes all hitting you in melee range is much easier than fighting a couple dudes in melee range with others sitting 30m away beaming you. And Nifty PvPs quite a bit more than you give him credit for. That said, he's an intelligent and accomplished templar player who knows the class well and understands game balance. He's plenty qualified to come in here and comment, and more qualified templar PvPers than he have chimed in support. Did you notice where blab chimed in with exactly the points I said he'd made in my last big "nerf RD" thread, the one where you called me a liar and had your little fit with Zheg?Joy_Division wrote: »The reason why "Templar tears get riled up" is because people like you just walk into these forums as if you are someone some expert player who knows everything and what is best for everyone, and all that talk just amounts to nerf the crap out of the skill and class, but leave all the other "toxic" and "skilless" game mechanics and skills as they are.
Pointing out one overperforming skill is not looking to gut a class or neglect other overperforming skills. None of us want to make templar underpowered compared to other classes. Please keep the conversation on track and stop exaggerating.3 -
Hempyre✭✭✭✭Tell ya what, when i get out of combat before I've run to the next keep we can talk about balancing...0 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.
Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.
Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.
I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.
Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.
Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.
I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.
I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.
I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.
I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach
) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.
I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.Edited by DisgracefulMind on July 9, 2016 7:46PMUnfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.1 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭As I have said before if RD is balanced then why not make every other execute in the game undodgeable too?Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As I have said before if RD is balanced then why not make every other execute in the game undodgeable too?
That would be fine by most, though stam would cry. Its undodgeable because its channeled. Make all the other executes channeled and we'd see a lot less ridiculousness with jesus beam threads.1 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭As I have said before if RD is balanced then why not make every other execute in the game undodgeable too?Tell ya what, when i get out of combat before I've run to the next keep we can talk about balancing...
Lol pretty true.
I get the same thing on my nightblade if I happen to press Rapid Regen ever.
0 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As I have said before if RD is balanced then why not make every other execute in the game undodgeable too?Tell ya what, when i get out of combat before I've run to the next keep we can talk about balancing...
Lol pretty true.
I get the same thing on my nightblade if I happen to press Rapid Regen ever.
Nothing compares to the amount of stuck in combat you get on a Templar...90% of my time is spent jogging behind anyone I'm with and getting ganked or attempted ganked in the backline T.TUnfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.
Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.
Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.
I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.
Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.
Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.
I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.
I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.
I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.
I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.
I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.
There is simply nothing left to discuss. It's been done over and over. The only thing I see different is that a handful of people are finally catching on that making it dodgeable is bad for balance, and they've stopped saying "well all of the good templars say it needs it, so therefore you're a forumplar and don't know what you're talking about." Nice change of pace, but nothing to write home about.
We'll agree to disagree on the range. For the super majority of what people cite as examples of why they want the skill nerfed, having the person that used it on them slightly closer won't make a lick of difference imo. It's already very easy to deal with in 1v1 and small scale, people complain when they're outnumbered or in larger fights - at which point the number of times you'll save yourself because your opponent was slightly closer will be barely a blip on the radar.1 -
GilGalad✭✭✭✭✭
Cast time on an execute defeats the purposeI've said this before, and I'm saying it again.
Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together
- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable
If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.
Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.
Ok so let's make some suggestions that really don't change PVE at all:
Reduce range to 18-25m, so it doesn't get buffed by battlespirit (+8m range for abilities with at least 28m range). This would make it harder to cast from a save location.
Increase the channel time and the skill costs. This has 0 influence on PVE, but if someone keeps interrupting it, it has to become really expensive. You could also give it the streak treating by increasing its cost by 50% when cast 2 times within 3 seconds, so you have a cost increase if you don't let it run over the full duration.
Finally if it's still over performing in PVP you can add a 0.5 sec cast time, so people at least have a chance to react. At the moment the first tick will deal dmg before the beam is even visible. Another way would be to make the fist tick deal 50% less dmg and the last tick deal 50% more.
Most of the skills have a build it delay for the dmg, even executes (see sorc execute bonus dmg). Your argument might be valid for instant casts, but not for a channeled execute like RD. It makes no difference if the full dmg will be applied over 3 or 3.5 secs. everyone in execute range will die with or without a cast time. But when someone continuously interrupts the RD it will become way more inefficient. 0.5 sec would still be faster than a BOL...0 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭People have a variety of suggestions on whats actually wrong with it and how to balance it.
Its an effective skill outside of the range of most executes. You pair this with the fact that you take an instant tick (before or as you see the beam - there is no time to react to this... this is when you realize youre being beamed). That tick, should be eliminated in my opinion, and it should tick just after. The result is, if you are in the area of 50% and the beam connects, you take an instant tick dropping you to 30-35% and then the next tick will bring you into deaths range. There is no time to react to this skill, and in that sense, it is much different than having a sorc execute on you in which case you know if you fall to 20% - its over. Thats a skill I can react to.
Bashing beam or CCing them doesnt do much, it doesnt take much time to wind up again on them, and once they have CC immunity (say I streak them the first time for example) - they will be immune to the next streak. Getting out of range is less of an option with this skill, but I dont mind keeping its strengths (Range, damage outside of low execute range, undodgeable) if youre allowed to react to it. If its a channel, and you want to keep PVE concepts in place. Scale the damage up as it holds. The amount of front end damage this has makes PvPing a joke when outnumbered.
As kena mentioned - Id rather be fighting 5 people in melee range or even sorcs than fighting the same with beams. Once there is a beam involved - I would disengage this fight and seperate from the templar. This skill is too powerful. Get opened on and stunned at 50% and you will find yourself dead while you CC break and heal as a beam connects for the first 2 ticks as mentioned above. Vigor doesnt outdo this. A lot of classes do not have burst heal options to even consider, which is the only way to counter this. Youre put inside the kill zone whenever you lose half your HP bar, regardless of whether that is 40k HP, 30k HP, or 22k HP. This is brutal.4 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.
Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.
Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.
I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.
Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.
Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.
I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.
I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.
I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.
I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.
I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.
And that's how you start a productive, mature conversation about class and skill balance. You speak to each other with respect and stick to the specific issue at hand rather than running off into tangents and insulting people's intelligence/play style/ect.
Thank you for your relevant opinion and eloquent expression of such. Agree 100%.4 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DisgracefulMind wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »Seriously, this discussion could have been decent, but it got hijacked with petty arguments like every single other discussion.
Plenty of decent and respected players have come in here and offered good suggestions on how to tone the skill down a bit.
Again, RD needs a range reduction. I think a 6 meter one would make a huge difference. It would bring its base range to the same as Toppling Charge, which means it wouldn't hurt the skill in PvE, and would help in PvP. A few in here suggested bringing its range in line with a gap closer, and 6 meters isn't too steep of a reduction that it would have an overly negative impact.
I don't see why this thread is being argued in about sorcs and what [class] can do and not do. There are some terribly OP things we could all bring up about each class, but this thread isn't here for that.
Yes, RD needs to be toned down. No, it doesn't need to be toned down to please stambuilds and solo players only. Yes, its function in PvE also needs to be considered. Give it a range reduction and we'll see a huge difference imo.
Then you're clearly missing the point that there are either zero or no where near the same amount of threads on the other OP stuff. Is pointing out the obsession with nerfing jesus beam when compared to all of the other things that are overperforming to a greater extent irrelevant? I don't think so. I think it's entirely relevant for perspective - dozens of threads later we've pretty clearly we can't have rational discussions because people hate the skill so much and have blinders on when it comes to all of the other overperforming things.
I'd also suggest that the range nerf would in no way make a 'huge difference' ... if anything at all it would be a minor one. The skill would still get used the same way and the number of people counter-playing it would increase minimally. What would happen is that people would give it a few days and then return to calling for further nerfs.
I'm not missing any point, I'm an intelligent human being and know how to read and comprehend just fine.
I agree completely that there are other things overperforming I also understand that most of the complaints about beam come from stamina builds who run low health, high damage, and don't like having a counter. However, I don't think that if we want a decent discussion about a certain skill that complaining about one thing being OP to another thing being OP and then to ANOTHER thing being OP is the way to go. It literally takes the discussion elsewhere and derives into petty little arguments like we see all over the forums. Instead of having a discussion that is beneficial and focused, we end up with people starting to insult each other, and the discussion crumbles.
I disagree that it wouldn't make a huge difference. 6m is a huge difference in range. I don't much care about the reach passive; it's an earned passive in Cyrodiil, and everyone can get it, so the complaints on that to me are null. But a 6m difference in open world, away from keeps, is huge, and would make the decision to cast it a bit more valuable, as you would actually be in a more vulnerable range to be interrupted and such. Lowering the base range to 22 meters would solve the huge 36 (put 41 first, but remembered Reach) meter range the skill gets with the Battle Spirit buff. I'd be okay with this, honestly. I'd rather this than having the skill utterly destroyed by being made dodgeable or the damage getting destroyed.
I play Templar daily. I use beam, I know the strengths and weaknesses of Templar. I think the range needs to be toned down. I don't think anything else needs to be touched about the skill.
And that's how you start a productive, mature conversation about class and skill balance. You speak to each other with respect and stick to the specific issue at hand rather than running off into tangents and insulting people's intelligence/play style/ect.
Thank you for your relevant opinion and eloquent expression of such. Agree 100%.
Confirmed and supported for truthfulness.2