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Lets Balance Radiant Destruction
-
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.Edited by KenaPKK on July 9, 2016 3:56AM2 -
DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately
Ehh this isn't really the truth at all unless the player has 1. very little spell resist or 2. very, very little CP or both.
The highest tick I've hit on somebody was around 15.5k, and that was when they had literally about 1k health left, so they were going to die anyways. So that damage would be significantly less on someone at 25% HP. Unless you get hit by an Emplar beam, then RIP
Unfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.4 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.
VE is done, so you're grasping at straws in your attempt at a point. I call TF the competitive campaign because that is where the majority of the stronger guilds pvp. I play during primetime because I'm an adult and work normal hours. TF is always lagging, it's just a matter of the severity. The vast majority of templar skills - in particular magplar skills, are affected by lag far more than any other build because of the cast times and channels. Stam users relying on WB will know what I'm talking about, and that's just a single skill. NB not only has all instant cast skills, but its gap closer has consistently performed the best in the game for years. You should try casting a dark flare at a keep fight, even better if you try to get it to land on a good stam player. You're naive if you think lag shouldn't be considered in the performance of skills and balance overall.
The performance issues were brought up because it was pretty apparent people that never even used the skill have misguided beliefs about how quickly and how easily jesus beam is applied in pvp. Most of the time I'll cancel a jesus beam if my target is at high health because I'm smart enough to know it's going to make me vulnerable and do crap damage. Couple that with the terrible targeting system where if I tab target you, have my cursor right on top of you, I'll still end up hitting the dwemer pet 10 m to the right for some reason. Couple that with lag where the skill doesn't even fire off until seconds later and now maybe the low health person you wanted to execute is back to full health, it makes for a frustrating experience. I get it, people don't like the skill, stam builds are furious there is a rock/paper/scissor counter to them, and *insert reason XYZ here*. But stop acting like lag isn't a thing Kena, particularly if you've never even tried using the skills in question. Also stop pretending like bouncing to a different campaign or down into the sewers is the solution, it's not. I want to fight against the better guilds and the better players in keep fights - even when I'm solo. That's why I pvp, it may not be why you pvp, but that's how the game was sold to me. There is no escape from the lag in those situations, so your arguments are futile.5 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.
VE is done, so you're grasping at straws in your attempt at a point. I call TF the competitive campaign because that is where the majority of the stronger guilds pvp. I play during primetime because I'm an adult and work normal hours. TF is always lagging, it's just a matter of the severity. The vast majority of templar skills - in particular magplar skills, are affected by lag far more than any other build because of the cast times and channels. Stam users relying on WB will know what I'm talking about, and that's just a single skill. NB not only has all instant cast skills, but its gap closer has consistently performed the best in the game for years. You should try casting a dark flare at a keep fight, even better if you try to get it to land on a good stam player. You're naive if you think lag shouldn't be considered in the performance of skills and balance overall.
The performance issues were brought up because it was pretty apparent people that never even used the skill have misguided beliefs about how quickly and how easily jesus beam is applied in pvp. Most of the time I'll cancel a jesus beam if my target is at high health because I'm smart enough to know it's going to make me vulnerable and do crap damage. Couple that with the terrible targeting system where if I tab target you, have my cursor right on top of you, I'll still end up hitting the dwemer pet 10 m to the right for some reason. Couple that with lag where the skill doesn't even fire off until seconds later and now maybe the low health person you wanted to execute is back to full health, it makes for a frustrating experience. I get it, people don't like the skill, stam builds are furious there is a rock/paper/scissor counter to them, and *insert reason XYZ here*. But stop acting like lag isn't a thing Kena, particularly if you've never even tried using the skills in question. Also stop pretending like bouncing to a different campaign or down into the sewers is the solution, it's not. I want to fight against the better guilds and the better players in keep fights - even when I'm solo. That's why I pvp, it may not be why you pvp, but that's how the game was sold to me. There is no escape from the lag in those situations, so your arguments are futile.
Can't have skilled fights vs skilled players if you can't use your skills.
Edit: TF is a disaster at prime time. I say this to my own guild too, because I think anyone who plays there at prime time is just a masochist at this point. Painting TF to be some "competitive" campaign when everyone knows it's just ZvZ and 500+ constant ping is at best, naive. At worst, plain dumb. Haderus is 1000x more competitive because you can reliably weapon swap, use your skills- channeled ones included- nearly all of the time. This means people can actually have thoughtful pvp. People can move and counter one another with INTENT and not just mash 1 key hoping it hits someone or something.Edited by Jules on July 9, 2016 4:42AM5 -
Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
If you want it to be a like the above changes that is mentioned then remove cloak, shuffle and Purge from the game.Edited by Van_0S on July 9, 2016 4:40AM0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.
VE is done, so you're grasping at straws in your attempt at a point. I call TF the competitive campaign because that is where the majority of the stronger guilds pvp. I play during primetime because I'm an adult and work normal hours. TF is always lagging, it's just a matter of the severity. The vast majority of templar skills - in particular magplar skills, are affected by lag far more than any other build because of the cast times and channels. Stam users relying on WB will know what I'm talking about, and that's just a single skill. NB not only has all instant cast skills, but its gap closer has consistently performed the best in the game for years. You should try casting a dark flare at a keep fight, even better if you try to get it to land on a good stam player. You're naive if you think lag shouldn't be considered in the performance of skills and balance overall.
The performance issues were brought up because it was pretty apparent people that never even used the skill have misguided beliefs about how quickly and how easily jesus beam is applied in pvp. Most of the time I'll cancel a jesus beam if my target is at high health because I'm smart enough to know it's going to make me vulnerable and do crap damage. Couple that with the terrible targeting system where if I tab target you, have my cursor right on top of you, I'll still end up hitting the dwemer pet 10 m to the right for some reason. Couple that with lag where the skill doesn't even fire off until seconds later and now maybe the low health person you wanted to execute is back to full health, it makes for a frustrating experience. I get it, people don't like the skill, stam builds are furious there is a rock/paper/scissor counter to them, and *insert reason XYZ here*. But stop acting like lag isn't a thing Kena, particularly if you've never even tried using the skills in question. Also stop pretending like bouncing to a different campaign or down into the sewers is the solution, it's not. I want to fight against the better guilds and the better players in keep fights - even when I'm solo. That's why I pvp, it may not be why you pvp, but that's how the game was sold to me. There is no escape from the lag in those situations, so your arguments are futile.
Can't have skilled fights vs skilled players if you can't use your skills.
It comes down to the severity, as I said. Is it sad that I think about lag when coming up with my build and choosing my skills? Absolutely. But it's the reality, one Kena was trying to brush off. Those of us old timers that still play the game do so having accepted the fact that the game lags and that you will many times lose fights because your skills aren't responding as fast you are responding IRL, or because the lag isn't letting you see attacks before they actually animate/land.
With that said, I can still squeeze mild tidbits of enjoyment out of keep fights so long as my skills are just mildly delayed. I started relying on reflective light rather than dark flare because it's the only ranged instant skill (I really dislike javelin) I can rely on. To be clear, I'm not trying to argue that because jesus beam is negatively impacted by lag that it should be the most OP thing ever, I'm trying to argue that people making blanket statements about how easy it is to use in lag are grossly misinformed. With all of the misfires that happen in lag you can easily overextend your magicka usage on top of that frustration.
I honestly feel like many templars using jesus beam in the situations most people complain about do so only because there aren't better options. Against stam it's the only thing that will reliably connect and do damage. Against DKs it's the only thing that won't be reflected back at you. Templars want to stay at range, so many times that comes down to being the only option, albeit a poor one. I don't know, maybe if my toppling charge actually worked and I could rely on mist form to get out/reposition and my puncturing sweep performed better in lag I'd focus more on melee, but that's not the reality.Edited by Zheg on July 9, 2016 4:48AM1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Jules, not everyone can go to haderus. If the people in TF frustrated with lag went to haderus then it just switches the roles of the two campaigns. The people I want to fight are on TF, if they moved to haderus I'd move too. There are times when my skills work ok and I can have good pvp on TF. Much of the lag can be stopped if there were better tools to quickly take out the obscene numbers on TF that don't backfire on the smaller groups trying to use them. That sounds like a far more valuable conversation than jesus beam.1 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdropEdited by Jules on July 9, 2016 5:04AM6 -
Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.
VE is done, so you're grasping at straws in your attempt at a point. I call TF the competitive campaign because that is where the majority of the stronger guilds pvp. I play during primetime because I'm an adult and work normal hours. TF is always lagging, it's just a matter of the severity. The vast majority of templar skills - in particular magplar skills, are affected by lag far more than any other build because of the cast times and channels. Stam users relying on WB will know what I'm talking about, and that's just a single skill. NB not only has all instant cast skills, but its gap closer has consistently performed the best in the game for years. You should try casting a dark flare at a keep fight, even better if you try to get it to land on a good stam player. You're naive if you think lag shouldn't be considered in the performance of skills and balance overall.
The performance issues were brought up because it was pretty apparent people that never even used the skill have misguided beliefs about how quickly and how easily jesus beam is applied in pvp. Most of the time I'll cancel a jesus beam if my target is at high health because I'm smart enough to know it's going to make me vulnerable and do crap damage. Couple that with the terrible targeting system where if I tab target you, have my cursor right on top of you, I'll still end up hitting the dwemer pet 10 m to the right for some reason. Couple that with lag where the skill doesn't even fire off until seconds later and now maybe the low health person you wanted to execute is back to full health, it makes for a frustrating experience. I get it, people don't like the skill, stam builds are furious there is a rock/paper/scissor counter to them, and *insert reason XYZ here*. But stop acting like lag isn't a thing Kena, particularly if you've never even tried using the skills in question. Also stop pretending like bouncing to a different campaign or down into the sewers is the solution, it's not. I want to fight against the better guilds and the better players in keep fights - even when I'm solo. That's why I pvp, it may not be why you pvp, but that's how the game was sold to me. There is no escape from the lag in those situations, so your arguments are futile.
Can't have skilled fights vs skilled players if you can't use your skills.
No offence but Cyrodiil is a war zone!
If you want fair fights between skilled players then duel with your guild mates.
In war, there are noobs, skilled, trolls and gankers, you can't expect for a good fight!
Also, stop watching those streamers, who complain!
All, I am against is hackers and exploiters!0 -
Van_0S✭✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Yea!
I rarely use RD in PvP but in PvE, I use it a lot. But in certain situations, its very useful when mobility is needed in PvP.Edited by Van_0S on July 9, 2016 5:18AM0 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.
VE is done, so you're grasping at straws in your attempt at a point. I call TF the competitive campaign because that is where the majority of the stronger guilds pvp. I play during primetime because I'm an adult and work normal hours. TF is always lagging, it's just a matter of the severity. The vast majority of templar skills - in particular magplar skills, are affected by lag far more than any other build because of the cast times and channels. Stam users relying on WB will know what I'm talking about, and that's just a single skill. NB not only has all instant cast skills, but its gap closer has consistently performed the best in the game for years. You should try casting a dark flare at a keep fight, even better if you try to get it to land on a good stam player. You're naive if you think lag shouldn't be considered in the performance of skills and balance overall.
The performance issues were brought up because it was pretty apparent people that never even used the skill have misguided beliefs about how quickly and how easily jesus beam is applied in pvp. Most of the time I'll cancel a jesus beam if my target is at high health because I'm smart enough to know it's going to make me vulnerable and do crap damage. Couple that with the terrible targeting system where if I tab target you, have my cursor right on top of you, I'll still end up hitting the dwemer pet 10 m to the right for some reason. Couple that with lag where the skill doesn't even fire off until seconds later and now maybe the low health person you wanted to execute is back to full health, it makes for a frustrating experience. I get it, people don't like the skill, stam builds are furious there is a rock/paper/scissor counter to them, and *insert reason XYZ here*. But stop acting like lag isn't a thing Kena, particularly if you've never even tried using the skills in question. Also stop pretending like bouncing to a different campaign or down into the sewers is the solution, it's not. I want to fight against the better guilds and the better players in keep fights - even when I'm solo. That's why I pvp, it may not be why you pvp, but that's how the game was sold to me. There is no escape from the lag in those situations, so your arguments are futile.
Just because the guild is no longer competing does not mean your attitude has changed.
There have historically been plenty of competitive guilds and activity in Had. K-Hole was much stronger than VE and spent more time there than elsewhere. Haxus hopped back and forth. Dynamic, DR, Fantasia, Arcane, Legion, and oceanic groups such as Skillz which I'm not terribly familiar with all spend/spent significant time there. To treat Had like a second rate campaign anymore is simply an outdated and insulting attitude.
And Had still doesn't lag nearly as much as TF. Hmmmmmmm.
As for channeled abilities being difficult to use or outright not working in lag, I already agreed with you about that. Having a ton of channels in a class's kit is careless. Go read the post you quoted before getting so snippy. And I don't understand your grudge against nightblades.. We are not immune to lag or dodges, especially projectile-based builds like mine. No one performs ideally in lag. Sorry, but I see judging the quality of a class's kit based on how it performs in lag as petty.
It's the matter of principle for me. Balancing the game based on lag accepts the lag as a feature of the game. Just no. Avoid it, wait for ZOS to (maybe) fix it, or just live with it. Playing in lag, whether you're salty about it or not, is a matter of choice.Edited by KenaPKK on July 9, 2016 5:18AM3 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. I agree that jesus beam does not define the class, i think purify does that. Ive played magplar without slotting RD at times and did fine. But overall the skill benefits magplars because it levels the field against stam and dk, significant nerfs with nothing to buff as a counter would drop the viability of magplar in this meta. Puncturing sweep is not something you want to be relying on in those matchups. Youve got your dk wish list, ironically enough jesus beam is not on mine, id love something completely different. But i also dont want the biggest check on stam to be removed and not replaced elsewhere in combat.Edited by Zheg on July 9, 2016 5:30AM2 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. I agree that jesus beam does not define the class, i think purify does that. Ive played magplar without slotting RD at times and did fine. But overall the skill benefits magplars because it levels the field against stam and dk, significant nerfs with nothing to buff as a counter would drop the viability of magplar in this meta. Puncturing sweep is not something you want to be relying on in those matchups. Youve got your dk wish list, ironically enough jesus beam is not on mine, id love something completely different. But i also dont want the biggest check on stam to be removed and not replaced elsewhere in combat.
So then start advocating for that instead of impeding our conversation around RD.1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.
You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.
My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.
Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.
If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.
Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.
I play in Cyro a lot more than I play in IC, dude, and I play equally between TF and Had with a pinch of Azura's. I've corrected you on this before. Also we have 2 competitive campaigns right now, so you should reexamine your "if VE doesn't play on the campaign, then it is irrelevant" attitude.
Anyway, TF has nearly crippling lag during prime time despite reaching high pops in other parts of the day, and Haderus has mild lag when there's a queue to enter. I think that irregularity says more about the play styles of the groups running during TF prime time than the state of the game.
In other words, I'd venture to say you experience lag so often because you put yourself in it. You're stuck in 1.6 regarding lag the way you're stick in 1.6 regarding Templar balance.
I agree with your commentary on risk and reward regarding channeled abilities and stam, although I'll add that in real world pvp, the risk to channeling RD is hardly punishing. Its initial tick is often enough to kill a target in actual execute range (25%) immediately, and if interrupted while channeling, what even happens? A cc at worst? Break free and cast another beam or something else, and the fight continues. It's a much more forgiving spell than you give it credit for, adding in part to why it gets so obnoxiously spammed.
VE is done, so you're grasping at straws in your attempt at a point. I call TF the competitive campaign because that is where the majority of the stronger guilds pvp. I play during primetime because I'm an adult and work normal hours. TF is always lagging, it's just a matter of the severity. The vast majority of templar skills - in particular magplar skills, are affected by lag far more than any other build because of the cast times and channels. Stam users relying on WB will know what I'm talking about, and that's just a single skill. NB not only has all instant cast skills, but its gap closer has consistently performed the best in the game for years. You should try casting a dark flare at a keep fight, even better if you try to get it to land on a good stam player. You're naive if you think lag shouldn't be considered in the performance of skills and balance overall.
The performance issues were brought up because it was pretty apparent people that never even used the skill have misguided beliefs about how quickly and how easily jesus beam is applied in pvp. Most of the time I'll cancel a jesus beam if my target is at high health because I'm smart enough to know it's going to make me vulnerable and do crap damage. Couple that with the terrible targeting system where if I tab target you, have my cursor right on top of you, I'll still end up hitting the dwemer pet 10 m to the right for some reason. Couple that with lag where the skill doesn't even fire off until seconds later and now maybe the low health person you wanted to execute is back to full health, it makes for a frustrating experience. I get it, people don't like the skill, stam builds are furious there is a rock/paper/scissor counter to them, and *insert reason XYZ here*. But stop acting like lag isn't a thing Kena, particularly if you've never even tried using the skills in question. Also stop pretending like bouncing to a different campaign or down into the sewers is the solution, it's not. I want to fight against the better guilds and the better players in keep fights - even when I'm solo. That's why I pvp, it may not be why you pvp, but that's how the game was sold to me. There is no escape from the lag in those situations, so your arguments are futile.
Can't have skilled fights vs skilled players if you can't use your skills.
Edit: TF is a disaster at prime time. I say this to my own guild too, because I think anyone who plays there at prime time is just a masochist at this point. Painting TF to be some "competitive" campaign when everyone knows it's just ZvZ and 500+ constant ping is at best, naive. At worst, plain dumb. Haderus is 1000x more competitive because you can reliably weapon swap, use your skills- channeled ones included- nearly all of the time. This means people can actually have thoughtful pvp. People can move and counter one another with INTENT and not just mash 1 key hoping it hits someone or something.
Aint that the truth2 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. I agree that jesus beam does not define the class, i think purify does that. Ive played magplar without slotting RD at times and did fine. But overall the skill benefits magplars because it levels the field against stam and dk, significant nerfs with nothing to buff as a counter would drop the viability of magplar in this meta. Puncturing sweep is not something you want to be relying on in those matchups. Youve got your dk wish list, ironically enough jesus beam is not on mine, id love something completely different. But i also dont want the biggest check on stam to be removed and not replaced elsewhere in combat.
So then start advocating for that instead of impeding our conversation around RD.
I thought we've already established that im realistic. They cant even fix gap closers or purge and you think a full revamp of templars has a chance of happening? Youre welcome to hold your breath on that one. Many templars did the work required to come up with the possibilities of what such a thing would require in the many well thought out posts over the past year, including an 80 page thread on the IC PTS forums. We can advocate all we like, we still end up getting things like unbreakable negates, permaroot, VD and fasallas, and a laundry list of other gifts from the combat team.
Its not a conversation on RD, just the same people making the same comments as the past dozen or so threads. The same goes for me, i make the same counter arguments to the same people on the same points. Its like pvp, you fight the same people over and over because the population is so anemic, but theres less lag.3 -
KenaPKK✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. I agree that jesus beam does not define the class, i think purify does that. Ive played magplar without slotting RD at times and did fine. But overall the skill benefits magplars because it levels the field against stam and dk, significant nerfs with nothing to buff as a counter would drop the viability of magplar in this meta. Puncturing sweep is not something you want to be relying on in those matchups. Youve got your dk wish list, ironically enough jesus beam is not on mine, id love something completely different. But i also dont want the biggest check on stam to be removed and not replaced elsewhere in combat.
So then start advocating for that instead of impeding our conversation around RD.
I thought we've already established that im realistic. They cant even fix gap closers or purge and you think a full revamp of templars has a chance of happening? Youre welcome to hold your breath on that one. Many templars did the work required to come up with the possibilities of what such a thing would require in the many well thought out posts over the past year, including an 80 page thread on the IC PTS forums. We can advocate all we like, we still end up getting things like unbreakable negates, permaroot, VD and fasallas, and a laundry list of other gifts from the combat team.
Its not a conversation on RD, just the same people making the same comments as the past dozen or so threads. The same goes for me, i make the same counter arguments to the same people on the same points. Its like pvp, you fight the same people over and over because the population is so anemic, but theres less lag.
You're not realistic. You're endlessly and unnecessarily pessimistic. ZOS has broken you. It's understandable given how the year has gone, but it still excludes you from rational and constructive balance discussion. If we're going to win ZOS over and improve PvP in this game to the potential that we still believe it has, we need more positivity and hope. I think it's time you retire from the forums as your guild has from the game.
To address your points...again:
No one is asking for a revamp of Templars. Honestly I think my idea from forever ago of reducing beam's range in order to put beamplars at actual risk like with other executes would satisfy most people here. Correct me if I'm wrong, everyone.
Of unbreakable negates, permaroots, VD, and Fasalla's, only the permaroots are doing more harm than good. Negate was totally outclassed before. Now since it silences but doesn't stun, it can be easily escaped with a single dodge roll while still creating a powerful and lasting threat to magicka players who are out of stamina or held in place. In other words, it combos well with other skills and punishes some players who are outplayed. Would be nice to have a similar effect that works against stam! VD is our proxy for removal of aoe caps -- a bandaid fix, but better than nothing. Fasalla's addresses out of control healing. ZOS just needs to address the stupidity that is Bombard, and we're in a pretty good place with permaroots. Some buffs to purge and rapids would be great too.
"Nerf RD" threads are frequent and repetitive for a reason, and we reply to your tired counter arguments with the same points each time. Now you've resorted to defending nerfing your class with "but our channels make us weak in lag." Well, we are all weaker in lag. Lag sucks. But the game shouldn't lag, doesn't always lag, and you're outclassing each of the other classes outside of lag. Wat do?5 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. I agree that jesus beam does not define the class, i think purify does that. Ive played magplar without slotting RD at times and did fine. But overall the skill benefits magplars because it levels the field against stam and dk, significant nerfs with nothing to buff as a counter would drop the viability of magplar in this meta. Puncturing sweep is not something you want to be relying on in those matchups. Youve got your dk wish list, ironically enough jesus beam is not on mine, id love something completely different. But i also dont want the biggest check on stam to be removed and not replaced elsewhere in combat.
So then start advocating for that instead of impeding our conversation around RD.
I thought we've already established that im realistic. They cant even fix gap closers or purge and you think a full revamp of templars has a chance of happening? Youre welcome to hold your breath on that one. Many templars did the work required to come up with the possibilities of what such a thing would require in the many well thought out posts over the past year, including an 80 page thread on the IC PTS forums. We can advocate all we like, we still end up getting things like unbreakable negates, permaroot, VD and fasallas, and a laundry list of other gifts from the combat team.
Its not a conversation on RD, just the same people making the same comments as the past dozen or so threads. The same goes for me, i make the same counter arguments to the same people on the same points. Its like pvp, you fight the same people over and over because the population is so anemic, but theres less lag.
You're not realistic. You're endlessly and unnecessarily pessimistic. ZOS has broken you. It's understandable given how the year has gone, but it still excludes you from rational and constructive balance discussion. If we're going to win ZOS over and improve PvP in this game to the potential that we still believe it has, we need more positivity and hope. I think it's time you retire from the forums as your guild has from the game.
Youll only get longer posts with this type of truth!4 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. I agree that jesus beam does not define the class, i think purify does that. Ive played magplar without slotting RD at times and did fine. But overall the skill benefits magplars because it levels the field against stam and dk, significant nerfs with nothing to buff as a counter would drop the viability of magplar in this meta. Puncturing sweep is not something you want to be relying on in those matchups. Youve got your dk wish list, ironically enough jesus beam is not on mine, id love something completely different. But i also dont want the biggest check on stam to be removed and not replaced elsewhere in combat.
So then start advocating for that instead of impeding our conversation around RD.
I thought we've already established that im realistic. They cant even fix gap closers or purge and you think a full revamp of templars has a chance of happening? Youre welcome to hold your breath on that one. Many templars did the work required to come up with the possibilities of what such a thing would require in the many well thought out posts over the past year, including an 80 page thread on the IC PTS forums. We can advocate all we like, we still end up getting things like unbreakable negates, permaroot, VD and fasallas, and a laundry list of other gifts from the combat team.
Its not a conversation on RD, just the same people making the same comments as the past dozen or so threads. The same goes for me, i make the same counter arguments to the same people on the same points. Its like pvp, you fight the same people over and over because the population is so anemic, but theres less lag.
You're not realistic. You're endlessly and unnecessarily pessimistic. ZOS has broken you. It's understandable given how the year has gone, but it still excludes you from rational and constructive balance discussion. If we're going to win ZOS over and improve PvP in this game to the potential that we still believe it has, we need more positivity and hope. I think it's time you retire from the forums as your guild has from the game.
To address your points...again:
No one is asking for a revamp of Templars. Honestly I think my idea from forever ago of reducing beam's range in order to put beamplars at actual risk like with other executes would satisfy most people here. Correct me if I'm wrong, everyone.
Of unbreakable negates, permaroots, VD, and Fasalla's, only the permaroots are doing more harm than good. Negate was totally outclassed before. Now since it silences but doesn't stun, it can be easily escaped with a single dodge roll while still creating a powerful and lasting threat to magicka players who are out of stamina or held in place. In other words, it combos well with other skills and punishes some players who are outplayed. Would be nice to have a similar effect that works against stam! VD is our proxy for removal of aoe caps -- a bandaid fix, but better than nothing. Fasalla's addresses out of control healing. ZOS just needs to address the stupidity that is Bombard, and we're in a pretty good place with permaroots. Some buffs to purge and rapids would be great too.
"Nerf RD" threads are frequent and repetitive for a reason, and we reply to your tired counter arguments with the same points each time. Now you've resorted to defending nerfing your class with "but our channels make us weak in lag." Well, we are all weaker in lag. Lag sucks. But the game shouldn't lag, doesn't always lag, and you're outclassing each of the other classes outside of lag. Wat do?
You dont know half as much as you think you do. One dodge roll does not get you out of most negates, nor does it do anything about mobile negates or the fact that the silence is a debuff rapidly applied every half second and will linger for the debuff duration even after exiting the negate.
I could not have been any clearer in the post to jules about what i was saying regarding jesus beam and lag, and yet your takeaway was the exact thing i emphasized i was not arguing. You need to learn reading comprehension kena.
No one is asking for a templar revamp because we are realistic. You told me i should be advocating for things i considered to be a revamp and i told you itd never happen. Pessimism is not the same as realism. If i were saying these things at launch, that would be pessimism. 2.5 years later, that makes it a reality. You go ahead and talk with all the hope you want about ovp never lagging and being fixed, players have done so since launch. The rest of us will accept that its not happening any time even remotely soon if ever at all.2 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RD changes players view:
Player1: Make it dodgeable.
Player2: Reduce its range.
Player3: Make it 25% excute.
Player4: Just remove RD from game.
Player5: Make it not scale with max magicka.
All these factors will make RD useless, thus the class become useless, again!
Yeah. Gonna have to call you on that one. The class becomes useless again? Templar? Useless? I think not.
The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction. You could remove the skill altogether and templars would still have a plethora of skills that are AMAZING, that make the class AMAZING, both magicka and stamina versions.
In example:
1. Repentence!!! - FREE, +REGEN on that bar, returns sh*ttons of stamina/heals
2. Channeled Focus - delicious magicka sustain
3. Restoring Focus - the tankiest skill to ever exist
4. Biting Jabs - with new burning light procs
5. Puncturing Sweeps - heal during damage combo and undodgable
6. Breath of Life - class self/others heal that can burst for upwards of 15k+
7. Major Mending readily accessible
8. Nova - gravity crush go kaboom
9. Empowering Sweep - Tank like a dk
10. Crescent Sweep - Surprise people with how hard it hits when they look at their death recap
11. Dark Flare - ranged heal debuff that hits like a truck
12. Javelin - a wicked annoying ranged CC, both magicka and stamina options
13. & the MIGHTY PURIFY - removes 5 negative effects in this permarootsnarepoison meta
/micdrop
Thats not a micdrop jules. I could probably do a far longer one for NB, and do the same for every other class. .
100% not the point. Refer to the original statement.The validity of templar absolutely does not hinge on radiant destruction.0 -
GilGalad✭✭✭✭✭I've said this before, and I'm saying it again.
Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together
- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable
If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.
Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.
Ok so let's make some suggestions that really don't change PVE at all:
Reduce range to 18-25m, so it doesn't get buffed by battlespirit (+8m range for abilities with at least 28m range). This would make it harder to cast from a save location.
Increase the channel time and the skill costs. This has 0 influence on PVE, but if someone keeps interrupting it, it has to become really expensive. You could also give it the streak treating by increasing its cost by 50% when cast 2 times within 3 seconds, so you have a cost increase if you don't let it run over the full duration.
Finally if it's still over performing in PVP you can add a 0.5 sec cast time, so people at least have a chance to react. At the moment the first tick will deal dmg before the beam is even visible. Another way would be to make the fist tick deal 50% less dmg and the last tick deal 50% more.
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Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Cast time on an execute defeats the purposeI've said this before, and I'm saying it again.
Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together
- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable
If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.
Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.
Ok so let's make some suggestions that really don't change PVE at all:
Reduce range to 18-25m, so it doesn't get buffed by battlespirit (+8m range for abilities with at least 28m range). This would make it harder to cast from a save location.
Increase the channel time and the skill costs. This has 0 influence on PVE, but if someone keeps interrupting it, it has to become really expensive. You could also give it the streak treating by increasing its cost by 50% when cast 2 times within 3 seconds, so you have a cost increase if you don't let it run over the full duration.
Finally if it's still over performing in PVP you can add a 0.5 sec cast time, so people at least have a chance to react. At the moment the first tick will deal dmg before the beam is even visible. Another way would be to make the fist tick deal 50% less dmg and the last tick deal 50% more.
#MOREORBS0 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider4 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Everyone has seen the 2k crit ticks jesus beam does at full health - im pretty sure youd do equal if not greater damage weaving a mages wrath at that point. The only time RD will start to outpace is when you get into the 25-40 ish range where RD begins its ramp up. Actually, this would be a halfway viable followup to jules video. Weave a mage's wrath, have the same magicka and spell dmg pool as a jesus beamer, do it with and without CP, and against someone running the 21k hp builds you see all the time and against someone running closer to 27k-29k hp and see the differences. I'd expect jesus beam to win that, but I'd also expect the ttk to be far closer than everyone thinks, and I think that's ok considering you can block cast on the sorc and use other skills in between in reality.Edited by Zheg on July 9, 2016 3:22PM1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When other "toxic" and "unthoughtful" and"terrible game design" aspects such as fear, shuffle, bombard, cold harbor siege, insta-stealth, 100% damage avoidance, automatic/unpurgable snares, etc., are also addressed, then I'll be up for a conversation about RD.
I got news for you Nifty, if 5 NBs are ambush spamming you or 5 DKs dizzying blowing you, or 5 Templars puncturing sweeping you, you will die faster than from Jesus Beams. You PvP for a week and all of a sudden, you are the one to come up with the "solution" to RD. One that adds a disadvantageous mechanic that ZoS has intentionally designed there game not to have, and only slap that on Templars. No offense, but I'd bet Wrobel has more actual PvP logged time than you.
The reason why "Templar tears get riled up" is because people like you just walk into these forums as if you are someone some expert player who knows everything and what is best for everyone, and all that talk just amounts to nerf the crap out of the skill and class, but leave all the other "toxic" and "skilless" game mechanics and skills as they are.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.7 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »RD definitely needs something tweaked.
I've been playing around with it a lot over the past few days and it is way too easy to beam someone down from full health to dead. Sure, that's a potato way to die, but an execute shouldn't be capable of that kind of damage on someone not in execute range to begin with. I certainly can't kill someone on my sorc by spamming Mages Wrath a bunch of times.
You cant by spamming mages wrath, but id argue its just as easy to put on a jesus beam as it is an inev det, curse, wrath, and frag. People can fool themselves into thinking that rotation requires tons of skill and timing but the reality is it doesnt. Why can jesus beam sometimes be all you need, just one skill? Because its far more obvious and makes the caster far more vulnerable. Its exceedingly rare that i can jesus beam someone from full health and kill them; it usually requires multiple casts and as you said - potato levels of reaction time.
Seems like the one takes up 1 slot, and the other takes up 4 skills slots.
Beaming from full health isnt why it needs to be nerfed. I think the point here is it shouldnt even be relevant or remotely effective then - but it still is, it actually is ticking damage. The issue is that once a beam is on you and you lose half of your potential health, it becomes extremely effective in taking you out of the fight in a blink.
Those are all skills sorcs already have on their bars. The point wasn't the damage comparison, but the level of difficulty. Holding one skill for 3 seconds vs pre-loading burst skills - the level of difficulty is almost the same. If you want to argue the bread and butter sorc rotation is difficult, well, you're welcome to. If we're allowed rotations, then jesus beam becomes the same part of any other rotation with similar or lower TTKs.1
