Nifty2g wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

More pvp whining that ends up hurting pve. Radiant Destruction is the least of what breaks pvp I can assure you.

I main a Templar in PvE, I can assure you, this change wont hurt it but would balance out PvP a lot better

But you don't really pvp.

I've probably put about 20 days game time into PvP or a bit more, that really has nothing to do with the discussion. I can clearly see when something is so unbalanced

20 days?! And you really think you can see clearly? I beg to differ. Play pvp a bit more and get a bigger picture of what goes on. And till then, go back and read comments of experienced pvp Templars. There are differences of opinions, but the general consensus is that given our lack of mobility, the fact that a channel not only snares us, but leaves us open to interrupts, and that it is the only skill that hard counters shuffle/dodge spammers...it is working as intended. Heck, even the Devs have said that it is working as intended.

So yeah, your lack of experience as a pvp player has everything to do with this discussion. So why don't you go back and read what other Templars have said before you start a new thread.

Majority of Templars, the "experienced" ones agree that it's too much...
Actually ontop of that, majority of "experienced" players agree it's too much.

I am experienced, that is why I don't die to it


Seriously, it isnt an overpowered skill. Range is easily fixed by the fact that venom arrow and crushing shock both have identicle ranges to it, 28 meters. If you pick more damage over interupt, that is a conscious choice to hope you can burn them before you get burned.

If it is the high amount of damage, it barely hits worth anything above 50%, and still isn't anything special until 30ish percent. Not to mention wards stop any crit, and bone shield/annulment are great for giving you a couple seconds to heal up and make it worthless again. And you can block the damage (still trying to figure out the whys as to that)

If it is the fact that they can stand back and use it from safety, ANY move (especially the two counters to RD I mentioned) is as annoying. Imagine a sniper NB, or a crushing shock spamming Sorc at 28 meters shooting you while you're fighting others. That'll still kill you, and faster since they hit harder the first 70ish percent of your health so the stam dk in front of you can just leap or executioner you. Not only that, but you can use LOS to break it and make smaller engagements. Win against the aforementioned DK while the templar is repositioning and exit from behind the tree/rock with and evil grin.

If it is that 5 RD beas on you gives you no chance, then the same logic should be applied to ALL moves that deal good damage if 5 people spam them. Hint, that is a majority of moves in the game.

The only thing I could see irritation about is that it is undodgeable. But if you stack ALL your defensive capabilities into one type of defense (dodge chance and dodge roll), then there has to be a counter or that is OP as all hell.

Not trying to be rude man, just saying there are valid, easy ways to deal with a beam play that font involve nerf in the class itself.

Since you decided to make this personal for whatever reason

Dealing with 1 or 2 beams is fine, nothing that bad about it really.

But having someone beam you in the back while you're trying to take on 1 or 2 people and having that person just spam beam on you is just absolutely pathetic. That is the main point of this thread, and I've done this to see what it's like, I know it's pathetic. And just shouldn't even be a thing.

Having 4 on you at once you will not survive in light armor for the most part, the damage it deals and increases and with the range. It's just too much.

Every other skill being spammed on me is quite easy to deal with. Beam is just so strong in this regard, if you remember back in the day they put a cap on beam, if 1 person was using it on you only 1 person would get execute damage. This was a nice way of dealing with things too, but it hurt in pve so they removed it. I wish they brought it back only to work in Cyrodill.

You need to reread OP, I'm pointing out the fact the pathetic and toxic gameplay this skill is bringing out in PvP, ruining it. Not that it deals too much damage above execute or anything like that. But beam is just getting a little out of control using it above 40% and waiting for targets to hit lower health

I think the point @DocFrost72 is making is that its no less pathetic than people sniping/crushing/meteoring/soul assaulting you from a distance as well. The reality to me is that it sounds like people dont' like ranged damage messing with their melee combat. I'd like to point out that I generally prefer playing the melee role as well, but you should pay a price if you have nothing ranged on your back bar. You should lose something for being a turtle without any versatility. There should always be give and take, which is one reason why I like there to be a skill that bypasses dodge. I'm also of the point of view that Reflect should not be perfect. Ranged damage generally does less damage than a good melee skill in games exactly because it is considered less risky than getting in the mix, or conversely melee characters in other games are generally more resilient to make up for that fact. My wish is that people would stick to one thread on the topic though, instead of a new one being posted every few days. Its the same topic for goodness sake. Why not house all your complaints and the counters in one location instead of beating a dead dog. If you feel its a dead dog why make a new topic? I personally don't see it as being a Necro thread if you keep the topic alive. Right now though its getting annoying seeing a new topic for RD every couple of days. I don't hold ill will for people making new topics or doubling up, but it would certainly be better if stuck to one thread, because honestly its the same thread that keeps getting repeated over and over.

I personally wish that the devs would have listed to @Personofsecrets regarding the nerf to block regeneration a long time ago. People would have much less excuse to complain about any such skill were this the case. The problem is that Blocking is the red headed stepchild of pvp. They need to fix block, and maybe this topic would quit unnecessarily cropping up.

Cryhavoc wrote: »

For what it's worth, I completely agree on a "re-balancing" of Radiant.

I use it in PvP. I have to use it or be at a disadvantage. It is my only range attack, as everything else I have has a cast time or is dodgeable. I need to proc my Dawn's Wrath passives. Besides, it is the most effective range attack I have as a Magicka Templar (even at full health).

Here are a few reasons why I use it at full health:
1. Marking targets: What is better than a massive laser to mark targets?
2. Keep defense: hit them and they back up, or die
3. Fear and doubt: sometimes I start with a RD and lead into a Toppling charge, it works like an emotional CC

Do I like this?
No

I would rather use Dark Flare, but... Cast time/Dodge/Reflects
Or Javelin, but....see above

I would rather have Blinding flashes!

I actually mostly agree with this, though I can see why a Magplar would like this kind of ranged gameplay. My comment earlier about Reflects needing to only have a percent chance of success is in large part because I feel single target ranged attacks don't get a fair shake from Reflect. Reflect is too perfect of a skill. I would much rather they make reflect have a 25-33% chance with 20-30second duration so that ranged attackers can at least have a shot at hitting you but pay a price for doing so. Reflect just shuts down way too many skills fully. Reflect should offer some psychological fear, but not complete terror to ranged caster players. I say this as someone who generally prefers playing the in-your-face melee type as well, so yes I care about the general balance of the game. I think we're just viewing things from a different vantage point @Nifty2g. I do agree there are things that need fixing, I just think the angle of approach that you and others like you are attacking from is wrong.

How I'd prefer it to be: it should only add execute damage at 25% like NB execute, and remain undodgeable. I believe this would make it balanced enough for PvE and PvP, since it would be used a bit more smartly in PvP and wouldn't be useless in PvE.

If the target is not at execute range, then it would do lower damage, just like Impale.

For all the people saying you can bash it and counter it, you've never fought outnumbered in PVP before. Try fighting 3-5 players at once only to have 1-2 people Jesus beaming you at 25 meters away at full health and tell me it isnt broken and easy mode. Snipe is reflectable, poison inject is reflectable. You do not see people spamming poison inject or killers blade or endless fury on you at full health, it is only jesus beam. I cannot tell you how many players ive seen who run around all day pug surfing in PVE builds spamming that ***. It's an overpowered skill and anyone with PVP experience knows that.

maxjapank wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'm saying it again.

Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together

- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable

If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.

Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.

I think the only fix it needs is a small range reduction. It would address most complaints about it.

It needs to stay undodgeable, however, because it really is one of the only hard counters to stam builds. Checks and balances, yo.

As for the damage, well, it really doesn't do much to high health targets. And my personal opinion is that if I have enough people on me that there's 4-5 Templars in that group (unless it's an all Templar 5 man, which I'm never going to kill anyways lol), I was most likely going to die to such a large group unless I have equal numbers.

Reduce range and I think a lot of the crying would stop.

I am not completely against reducing the range of Radiant. But not to the 15m of Impale as others have suggested. But I'm afraid that the crying is not gonna stop. The ones who are asking for Radiant to be nerfed are really asking for it to be dodgeable. That's what they want.

Well, being dodgeable is not the solution imo. I'd be fine with a 5-10m range reduction, that's it.

Heres what i would do:

-Make all executes 25%.
-Make all executes dodge-able.
-Make all ranged executes 20 meters.

This would help a lot. It's very simple.

Zheg wrote: »

forzajuve212 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

forzajuve212 wrote: »

For all the people saying you can bash it and counter it, you've never fought outnumbered in PVP before. Try fighting 3-5 players at once only to have 1-2 people Jesus beaming you at 25 meters away at full health and tell me it isnt broken and easy mode. Snipe is reflectable, poison inject is reflectable. You do not see people spamming poison inject or killers blade or endless fury on you at full health, it is only jesus beam. I cannot tell you how many players ive seen who run around all day pug surfing in PVE builds spamming that ***. It's an overpowered skill and anyone with PVP experience knows that.

Uhhh, people most certainly do spam poison injection. You also dont see people spamming killers blade because it is outclassed in every way by surprise attack, and go figure, most nb do in fact spam that. The ones that arent are usually spamming ambush.

Im still amazed at the tunnel vision people allow themselves in their hatred of jesus beam. Not only do they start to forget about all the things other classes spam, they start to come up with asinine arguments to justify their thoughts. "Snipe is reflectable" - who gives a flying F unless youre a DK? How does that magically make someone spamming snipe less of a threat or better than someone spamming jesus beam? For most magicka builds that snipe spammer is far more annoying and dangerous than a jesus beam spammer. Seriously, do you people realize the absurdity of some of the things you say, or has everyone just gone full troll mode when it comes to these threads?

It's not tunnel vision zheg, sure nightblades spam SA and stam builds spam WB, but do either of those skills operate as an execute at 50% with a 40 meter range? Snipe is dodgeable and frankly doesn't do as much damage as radiant and doesnt act as an execute. Even if I'm on a stamina build, the most common thing you see regardless of spec is undodgeable 50% execute high scaled 40 meter distance damage on you at full health. I'm not trolling man, I'm just telling you from my perspective. It is OP.

I play a mag build with a higher stam pool and higher cost reduction than average, again, being dodgeable doesnt mean much for magicka builds because you can only do so a handful of times - far less in all the outnumbered situations people mention. The reason you see so many using that argument as magically (sarcastic air quotes) making something balanced is because they play stam and dodgerolling avoids all threats for them other than jesus beam. The reason you see it so often on a stam build is because its the only check on your build so people use it. Why am i going to dark flare spam when a single dodgeroll during the 3+ second cast and travel time makes it whiff and hit nothing, or worse on a dk - gets reflected. People use jesus beam because there are no other checks to stam builds and no ranged checks to a dk.

If more skills were channeled and had oomph, youd see hysterical threads on those skills too. Forget the execute, if my jesus beam had comparable effects to SA spam but did channeled damage, id gladly take that instead of the execute. Go ahead and make the healing morph do high sustained damage and youll see stam builds literally lose their sh3t from how often they die to it than the execute.

I'm 100% fine with it being undodgeable - i think it's a great idea to have a hard counter to the stam dodge roll vitality pot malubeth stuff we see now. I'm just saying the 40 meter range and the 50% execute range are OP and should be fixed.

Jules wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'm saying it again.

Radiant Destruction is considered OP because it has 3 things together

- Max 41 meter range
- High damage
- Not Dodgeable

If it only had two or one of these aspects, it wouldn't be considered OP.

Reduce the range to that of most gap closers.

I think the only fix it needs is a small range reduction. It would address most complaints about it.

It needs to stay undodgeable, however, because it really is one of the only hard counters to stam builds. Checks and balances, yo.

As for the damage, well, it really doesn't do much to high health targets. And my personal opinion is that if I have enough people on me that there's 4-5 Templars in that group (unless it's an all Templar 5 man, which I'm never going to kill anyways lol), I was most likely going to die to such a large group unless I have equal numbers.

Reduce range and I think a lot of the crying would stop.

I am not completely against reducing the range of Radiant. But not to the 15m of Impale as others have suggested. But I'm afraid that the crying is not gonna stop. The ones who are asking for Radiant to be nerfed are really asking for it to be dodgeable. That's what they want.

Well, being dodgeable is not the solution imo. I'd be fine with a 5-10m range reduction, that's it.

Agreed, I think that making it dodgeable would make it too weak in pvp. And that's coming from someone who rollie pollie ollie's around on a stamplar all day. I want the skill to remain competitive. A reduction in range as @blabafat says would be ideal. This would keep the skill competitive but put it within range of gap closers, making it bashable. This would likely stop the QQ.

And just to note, though my video is a fun go-to for haters of RD, it's fair to say that it was not intended to be a heavily weighted and tested video. It does not isolate factors such as WD v SD or Spell Resist v Armor between the comparisons. I was irritated at the overperforming skill, so I grabbed some of my friends and told them to execute me to death to make a loose comparison. The intent was moreso to showcase the potential TTK of RD.

Yep, as someone who mains Magicka Templar, I will agree that the range is pretty OP. Tone that down slightly, and I think the skill is completely fine. Believe me, I get beamed a ton as well, and though I can purify, I know what it feels like being focus fired by 3+ RDs, especially being a healer. I'd very much like to see a range reduction, but not one so steeply reduced. Magicka Templars don't have too much to offer with effective ranged abilities (yeah we have dark flare and vamp's bane, but dark flare isn't very reliable imo even if it is a great skill when it is), so keep it still viable for sure.

I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.

You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.

My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.

Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I love how often Zheg talks about casting things in lag as if that should affect balance decisions.

You mean, you love how realistic I am? I concur. If the majority of gametime is spent in lag 2.5 years later, who's the one being silly, the one playing with lag in mind or the one with pie in the sky hopes? Templar has the majority of all casted and channeled skills and they're the absolute worst in lag, however frustrated you might get at your skills not going off, multiply that a few times.

My skills work fine. I don't play in lag and try to use it to justify buffing or maintaining the currently overtuned state of Templars in the game.

Stop acting like you have to play in lag. Lol it's not a feature of the game and should not be a factor in balance discussions. Can't believe I have to come in here to point this out.

If you play outside of the sewers and on the competitive on campaign you will face lag almost the entire time you're logged into cyrodiil. It's a reality of the game by now, pretending like it's not is ridiculous.

Again, you play a nb yes? Your skills work fine because you aren't casting or channeling anything. At this point I feel as though the combat team should move away from all channeled and casted skills because of their ongoing and proven inability to remedy the performance issues. The fact that there's an entire class dependent on those skills makes it even worse. It's lovely to hear wrobel talk about how he thinks casting something like dark flare or dark deal (for sorc) should have this risk/reward to it, but the reality is that this doesn't work in a poor performing game. He's yet to come to terms with that. Believe it or not, I'd love for jesus beam to not be channeled and work more like mage's wrath, and I'd love for counters to stam added that are not dependent on channeled damage.

Not yet. First zOS has to fix thaumaturge not working with sweeps/jabs like they promised would be fixed.

That's been fixed for awhile

Lurking forums for now...
Is every templar in PvP like

?