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What Could Have Been-Justice System Datamining
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petraeus1✭✭✭✭
Print,fill in,hang on wall...congrats
You beat your dead horse, we'll beat ours.
On top of all the things already suggested, they could also have a new zone with a lorefriendly reason as to why there's Enforcers in that zone specifically, and limit Justice PvP to that zone. High risk high reward crime. Casual or PVE criminals still have the rest of Tamriel to plunder.
Maybe some sort of minigame or competition between criminals and Enforcers with Leaderboards about racked up wealth: stolen property and bounties don't work like they work elsewhere, and don't benefit the individual players. The individual players get rewarded with another system entirely which relates to the success of their group (criminals or Enforcers) and their individual contribution, perhaps with a new currency. Would prevent some exploit potential.
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Zaldan✭✭✭✭✭Wow ZOS actually had a way for it not to be abused and if you didn't have a bounty you couldn't be attack.I can't believe this if they had implemented this am sure many players would have enjoyed it.
Yeah, no...they seriously said that possible abuse of a completely voluntary system is why they're never going to even try and come up with a better solution. Scrapped the whole thing. It makes about as much sense as closing off Cyrodil because some poor PvE player might wander in on accident.
except the whole of cyrodiil is a PVE zone, has some of the best exp quests in the game lol1 -
BenLocoDete✭✭✭
What of the PvEers that hate to witness theft and murder, and are currently powerless to stop it?
This is alone the reason a change is needed, at least buff guards and NPCs, multiply the bounties and double guard duty.IcyDeadPeople wrote: »(...)
Maybe part of the problem with that initial plan to incorporate some reward as percentage of the bounty is the fact there are too many of us with bounties in the tens of millions.
That would be the fun of it, hunt down high bounty criminals who of course are tough and won't go down easy.
Criminals with a very high bounty would have to be cautious, they are being hunted and that is the exciting part, I don't think anyone goes for a high bounty for the money, but to be proud of being a great evil-doer.
If developers really go "Oh no no no this is so wrong!" at least they gotta address a very common issue that is hardly anyone is getting caught by the guards these days because all you need to do is either jump into the water or run away enough to make the guard pathing reset so they run back to the city.
Meanwhile, the NPC respawns like nothing happened and go on with their AI walking over their corpses, and sometimes several of them.
If not this is clearly a bug and need a revamp/quality of life fix.Edited by BenLocoDete on July 3, 2016 12:09PM[slit]Throat[/slit]2 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is really sad to read! The experiences that could have been created, the excitement, intensity, and immersion this could have represented, it's safe to say, is very rare in gaming. Especially console gaming, console gaming have never actually had anything like this before, it really would have been landmark. Again, it's sad that the devs decided to thrash it sooner than work out any issues it could have created, or even show a little class and commit to the vision they originally had, I mean, there is a reason they wanted to do this in the first place. It's safe to say ZOS haven't the integrity we hoped for.PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.2 -
Cryptical✭✭✭✭✭
✭It was only *assumed* that the enforcers would have been paid with gold confiscated from the dead outlaw. Just because that's how it works with npc guards doesn't mean that's how it would work with players. That opens up an exploit of friends farming each other for gold like is done with alliance points.
Also unexamined for exploit is how the enforcer identifies the outlaw with a bounty.
Xbox NA1 -
Ffastyl✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, it is assumed that Enforcers will claim bounty just like guards. Because it discourages farming friends. If the gold lost/awarded is 1:1, what's the point in farming when they can simply trade?It was only *assumed* that the enforcers would have been paid with gold confiscated from the dead outlaw. Just because that's how it works with npc guards doesn't mean that's how it would work with players. That opens up an exploit of friends farming each other for gold like is done with alliance points.
This can be implemented in such a way to make life for Outlaws or Enforcers painful. For example, the Outlaws that are KOS could be marked and visible through walls, like rogue agents in The Division. Alternatively the Outlaws could not be marked at all and Enforcers just have to find out the hard way which ones are hostile. But these are obviously terrible ways to do it. An indicator similar to Alliance Indicators should appear over Outlaw/Enforcer heads when flagged for PvP. Just like in Cyrodiil, these indicators only show while the enemy player is in line of sight, unstealthed and within draw distance (Alliance Indicators disappear before player models do at extreme range). Then it becomes easy and simple for both sides to identify each other.Also unexamined for exploit is how the enforcer identifies the outlaw with a bounty.
For a more immersive implementation, both sides may need to manually target each other to identify who is who. Then when Outlaws round a corner, instead of seeing an indicator, they have to look for the Enforcer tabard. And Enforcers will have the more difficult task of scanning the crowd for players marked as hostile. To assist in this implementation, Enforcers will have a Wanted List item that tells them the character and/or @account names of all KOS criminals in their current zone. This allows Enforcers to recognize Outlaws by name in addition to target aura.
There is a third facet not yet discussed either: how are Enforcers treated within the Justice System? If players can attack Enforcers at any time, do they accrue an assault bounty for it? Inevitably to escape, an Outlaw will have to kill an Enforcer - do they accrue a murder bounty for it?
This issue has its roots in the PvP flagging system. If a player has to be flagged first to engage an Enforcer and vice versa, these questions are not pressing. If a player does not require the flag to engage an Enforcer however, how does the Enforcer initially fight back? This touches back on how KOS criminals are identified for Enforcers, by Heat or by Bounty? In this case, by Heat is a necessity, lest players accrue 1000g bounties for assaulting an Enforcer. Once a player attacks an Enforcer, their Heat is automatically elevated to KOS, allowing Enforcers to fight back, meanwhile a small bounty is added for the assault - a larger bounty if it becomes murder.
In a system where the Outlaw has to be flagged as KOS first before engaging Enforcers, the bounty for assault can be dropped, but a bounty for murder should stand as a way to punish players for not attempting to escape. Correct me here, as I am using what I recall as ingame figures, but the bounty added for murder is 343g. This is not enough bounty to elevate criminals into KOS but is still a substantial bounty. A 343g bounty added for every Enforcer killed can prolong the time an Outlaw is marked for KOS without being overly punishing as Heat degrades faster than Bounty and 343g will keep a low bounty below the KOS threshold.
From an immersive/competitive standpoint, players can become known as an "Enforcer Killer," and Enforcers are incentivized to hunt down rather than avoid this player as they have accrued a large bounty for killing Enforcers.
An extra thought that is up for controversial debate is allowing Enforcer take downs to confiscate funds from the criminal's bank as well as pockets. Since an easy workaround to minimize loss for Outlaws is to leave all their gold in the bank, allowing Enforcers to take bounty money from that loophole negates this exploit. But you are likely already feeling uneasy about your money never being safe. But at the same time, the Enforcers can stand to earn nothing for a job well done if denied access to banked money. The "time out" status mentioned prior can aid in this however. It still leaves Enforcers with nothing to show, but gives Outlaws a proper punishment for not paying off the bounty.
Touching upon Outlaw Dens, the PvE aspect for Enforcers; it is assumed these will be discovered with items similar to Treasure Maps. How these maps are awarded remains unclear, but they should be tradable. Afterall, there will be some players who wish to engage in the PvE aspect of Enforcers without risking the PvP. If the maps to Outlaw Dens are untradable, all Enforcers must engage in PvP to access the PvE. Allowing trade circumvents this for a portion of the population.Edited by Ffastyl on July 3, 2016 4:49PM"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
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Member since May 4th, 2014.2 -
Elloa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You don't force PVP upon poeple. That's all. (because we don't have separated PVP and PVE server)
The Justice system, aka stealing, murdering, and getting a bounty should not engage players into PVP. A lot of players HATE PVP and don't want to have to deal with it.
Leave PVP for players that want PVP only. So the only solution for a system like that to work is to have the players wearing a tabard to be flagged PVP. Or having some separated towns /city where PVP is enabled.Edited by Elloa on July 3, 2016 10:42PM1 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
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This isn't forcing PVP on anyone @Elloa,You have to join the outlaw and Enforcers to have the option to PVP.As a outlaw only way that you will be flag for PVP is of you get a bounty if you play smart that will never happen.We should encourage engaging and thoughtful play where player should have to think.You don't force PVP upon poeple. That's all. (because we don't have separated PVP and PVE server)
The Justice system, aka stealing, murdering, and getting a bounty should not engage players into PVP. A lot of players HATE PVP and don't want to have to deal with it.
Leave PVP for players that want PVP only. So the only solution for a system like that to work is to have the players wearing a tabard to be flagged PVP. Or having some separated towns /city where PVP is enabled.Edited by Jaronking on July 3, 2016 11:25PM1 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭You don't force PVP upon poeple. That's all. (because we don't have separated PVP and PVE server)
The Justice system, aka stealing, murdering, and getting a bounty should not engage players into PVP. A lot of players HATE PVP and don't want to have to deal with it.
Leave PVP for players that want PVP only. So the only solution for a system like that to work is to have the players wearing a tabard to be flagged PVP. Or having some separated towns /city where PVP is enabled.
With this (scrapped) system, wouldn't you already be flagging yourselves for PVP by committing crimes? Really, would you rather fight a literally unkillable guard, or another player that you at least have a chance of killing?
That being said, I feel like the Justice System should have been kept out of the main zones and restricted to Hew's Bane. It's a zone designed for thieves and would have made a great PVP zone, but instead it'll just gather dust as people move on once they've gotten their motifs and completed the quests.ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/171 -
Mastery404✭✭You're assuming that a justice system would inevitably lead to PVP. What if other skills would come to fruition that could bypass PVP and yet allow players to RP the justiciars?0
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OGLezard✭✭✭✭✭
✭You don't force PVP upon poeple. That's all. (because we don't have separated PVP and PVE server)
The Justice system, aka stealing, murdering, and getting a bounty should not engage players into PVP. A lot of players HATE PVP and don't want to have to deal with it.
Leave PVP for players that want PVP only. So the only solution for a system like that to work is to have the players wearing a tabard to be flagged PVP. Or having some separated towns /city where PVP is enabled.
that literally was the original idea. Outlaws and enforcers both have to wear a tabard to be flagged for the pvp part of the justice system. A lot of players were just to stupid to listen to how it worked, heard "kill other players" and freaked the F out.
Then the outcry happened against this system without even trying to comprehend how it actually worked. then the system died. Just like spell crafting. Two amazing ideas that would of breathed so much more life into this fading game.
R.I.P. pvp justice system and spell crafting1 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭Would have been a cool addition to the game. It breaks my immersion when everyone is just stealing and killing NPCs with little to no risks. There are just too many ways get rid or pay off your bounty. When DB launched there are dead bodies around Tamriel, it's just ridiculous. I have one character that plays as an assassin and one that plays as a thief, the rest of my alts are good guys, so I will never play the TG or DB questlines on them, I won't even bother stealing or turning off my prevent killing innocents toggle on these characters. SO having no Justice System in game breaks my immersion on both for characters that will never commit a crime, because I will never be able to stop crimes from happening, and the ones that I will commit a crime on, because I can just kill NPCs like killing mobs or steal in broad daylight, getting caught is never an issue because I could just pay off my bounty no problem.
Would have been cool, but it is what it is, I suppose.
@Elloa I agree, I also don't want to force people to PvP if they don't want to PvP. But then again, PvP will always have to do PvE content, if they want Master's and Maelstrom weapons or if they want a divines Molag Kena or whatnot, or if they want to level their Mage's, Fighter's and Undaunted skill lines, or if they want a certain dye color on their armor (lol). I wish there was also a way for PvP not to be forced to PvE if they don't want to do anything with PvE at all, don't you agree?"We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
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RAGUNAnoOne✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sigh this again...PS4 NA
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helediron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hmm, i think the horse is still dead.On hiatus. PC,EU,AD - crafting completionist - @helediron 900+ cp, @helestor 1000+ cp, @helestar 800+ cp, @helester 700+ cp - Dragonborn Z Suomikilta, Harrods, Master Crafter. - Blog - Crafthouse: all stations, all munduses, all dummies, open to everyone0 -
BenLocoDete✭✭✭Previous quotesBenLocoDete wrote: »
What of the PvEers that hate to witness theft and murder, and are currently powerless to stop it?
This is alone the reason a change is needed, at least buff guards and NPCs, multiply the bounties and double guard duty.IcyDeadPeople wrote: »(...)
Maybe part of the problem with that initial plan to incorporate some reward as percentage of the bounty is the fact there are too many of us with bounties in the tens of millions.
That would be the fun of it, hunt down high bounty criminals who of course are tough and won't go down easy.
Criminals with a very high bounty would have to be cautious, they are being hunted and that is the exciting part, I don't think anyone goes for a high bounty for the money, but to be proud of being a great evil-doer.
If developers really go "Oh no no no this is so wrong!" at least they gotta address a very common issue that is hardly anyone is getting caught by the guards these days because all you need to do is either jump into the water or run away enough to make the guard pathing reset so they run back to the city.
Meanwhile, the NPC respawns like nothing happened and go on with their AI walking over their corpses, and sometimes several of them.
If not this is clearly a bug and need a revamp/quality of life fix.arkansas_ESO wrote: »
Not only PvPers but probably anyone who finds it annoying and immersion-breaker to experience a mass slaughter of wounded shipwreck survivors and pretty much any other non-hostile NPCs in Khenarti's Roost i.e. with the criminal going completely unpunished.
RantAren't those people griefers? Farming vulnerable NPCs for the sake of ruining everyone's experience or simply don't care at all about the people around them? This is a current exploit and must be addressed just as serious as any other because it inspires not only game-breaking behavior but a common nuisance subject of several threads.
It trivializes life in Tamriel - someone died? Who cares, it will be back in 30 seconds(criminals killed will be back almost instantaneously) from Oblivion or Aetherius or wherever they go upon murdered. It revolves into a complete dismissal of the storytelling aspect of the game since you can clearly see that someone killed just won't go anywhere so why bother saving anyone or fighting Molag Bal?
Something simple to address the problem of overall high crime activity would be:- Extend the respawn time of players killed by the guards or make them shrine-exclusive
- even better, create a respawn location of a prison or the exit of a jail(much like what happens to you when you get arrested and slept your time in previous TES games)
- Increase dramatically the bounties, giving greater downsides and a reason to why people should avoid committing a crime(or act tactfully) at most times
- Flag some NPCs as "Brave" and make them fight alongside the attacked NPC, so in a marketplace, if one merchant is attacked all the others would rally and fight the offender
Another devious suggestion would be, arenas for prisoners - the guards instead of summarily killing the character, will arrest and put you in prison, where you'd be prompted to:- either spend the time and lose some character progress,
- or fight in the arena(PvP) for freedom.
Edited by BenLocoDete on July 4, 2016 10:29AM[slit]Throat[/slit]1 -
BenLocoDete✭✭✭
This horse is dead but it respawns every 30 seconds just like all NPCs of the game, to walk over its own corpse in the most immersive-breaking way possible!
Much like what happens to Pinto[slit]Throat[/slit]1 -
Jaronking✭✭✭✭✭
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Very true its ZOS Way of showing you that they like to half a$$ things instead of giving us quality and finishing their product.BenLocoDete wrote: »
This horse is dead but it respawns every 30 seconds just like all NPCs of the game, to walk over its own corpse in the most immersive-breaking way possible!
Much like what happens to Pinto0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6jqZng77Ho