When will we hear ANYTHING from the combat team on upcoming changes?

Kilandros · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet.

How is this meta worse than ball groups standing on top of each other on flags defying the need to pay attention to the environment once they hit a certain threshold of numbers vs the enemy bringing the server to its knees while everyone pretends theyre having fun on both sides.

Seriously????????

Everyone pick a day and try making groups under 8 people in Cyro and see how different the gameplay is. Until then, campaign for AOE cap removal and dream of a day the naysayers eat full damage next to their friends.

I think reasonable minds can disagree as to which meta they dislike most. While I find the infinite snares and roots and broken purge of DB to be the most frustrating for me, that doesn't mean I enjoyed the ball groups stacking flags, either.

But as someone who spends about an hour a day running solo on his templar and plays with groups no bigger than 16 (usually around 12), it was easier to avoid the ball groups stacking objectives than it is avoiding the bowzergs spamming bombard.

And I completely agree that AoE cap removal should be a real discussion. They should at least let us test it on the PTS if there's so much concern about its effects on live.

FENGRUSH · June 2016

Satiar wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet.

How is this meta worse than ball groups standing on top of each other on flags defying the need to pay attention to the environment once they hit a certain threshold of numbers vs the enemy bringing the server to its knees while everyone pretends theyre having fun on both sides.

Seriously????????

Everyone pick a day and try making groups under 8 people in Cyro and see how different the gameplay is. Until then, campaign for AOE cap removal and dream of a day the naysayers eat full damage next to their friends.

It's easier to kill stacked people then ever. Learn 2 negate. I need literally 5-6 people to kill a raid if it's stacked up.

What's unkillable is a big raid spread out, constantly camping and rezzing faster than you can kill them.

The closest thing there is now to a ball group is probably Vehemence, and even we don't do it because there isn't any reason to! I mean, I'm still all for no AoE caps but at this point it's meaningless. A combination of VD, negate and support nerfs killed that playstyle.

Big raids spread out spamming ress and camps is nothing new to this meta. Bombard spamming is not new. This does not make this meta 'worse' or.. 'the worst weve had yet'. Weve had plenty worse. Namely, every single one where large masses flipped flags while enemies flailed around the ball groups helplessly looking for all of the tools that were stripped from the game.

Thanks for the learn to negate tips.

www.twitch.tv/FENGRUSH

Zheg · June 2016

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

Armitas · June 2016

The only meta that matters now is the one we are in, which currently sucks excessively with an aggressive pursuit toward utter consternation.

rich.magab14a_ESO · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

Satiar · June 2016

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

Our success rate is where it always is, which has no bearing on how stupid and annoying this mode of gameplay is.

Lore_lai · June 2016

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

Immovable (or CC immunity in general) does not prevent soft CCs (like roots, in case you don't know what those are)

Anazasi · June 2016

I said this when negate was on pts. Its negate wars 2.0. It was made this way to force ball groups to spread out. Job accomplished. The issue is not negate it is performing extremely well as intended. The issue is the stacking roots from bombard. This ability is broke. there is no other way to look at it. It must be fixed someway. perhaps the right way to fix it is adding longer immunity. Perhaps the right way to fix it is addressing the abilities that cause the issue. But it must be fixed and ZOS must do it immediately.

Zheg · June 2016

Lore_lai wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

Immovable (or CC immunity in general) does not prevent soft CCs (like roots, in case you don't know what those are)

I was going to say this, a bit meaner and with some more sarcasm, but you beat me to it.

In fact immovable pots are largely useless in this meta as they don't even work on negates.

Joy_Division · June 2016

The meta keeps getting worse and worse because core mechanics of the game have been busted ever since the CP system was introduced with 1.6. We all run around with builds that can do everything, have too much sustain, do way too much damage, mitigate far too much and every release exacerbates this with the power creep.

It's a problem when a single player can solo an entire dungeon originally designed for a team of 4 players with specific roles.

Now everyone runs around with that capability in Cyrodiil, where ill-conceived band-aid measure likes the 50% Battlespirit and lazy mechanic changes (which result in more bugs like purge) designed to reign in that power just make PvP a joke, especially since ZoS only does class/ability balance patches once a year.

And what's there to say about the developers, who actually went out of their way to give us training traits for end-game gear while removing the trait that most PvPers care most about?

Go ahead and ask them to tell us what they intend to do in the next patch. Like it would do anything. They'll present us with dubious revisions, changes we didn't ask for that will bug things that actually work right now, won't consider our suggestions even if we have the RP community agreeing with us, and just make create a new meta that is just a frustrating and just as flawed as the previous one because the core mechanics of the game are busted.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

You should come back to this thread when you understand how the game works. I'll give you one for free though, immovable (skill, pots and immunity) only work on hard cc's, they do nothing about roots snares or negates.

Ishammael · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet.

How is this meta worse than ball groups standing on top of each other on flags defying the need to pay attention to the environment once they hit a certain threshold of numbers vs the enemy bringing the server to its knees while everyone pretends theyre having fun on both sides.

Seriously????????

Everyone pick a day and try making groups under 8 people in Cyro and see how different the gameplay is. Until then, campaign for AOE cap removal and dream of a day the naysayers eat full damage next to their friends.

It's easier to kill stacked people then ever. Learn 2 negate. I need literally 5-6 people to kill a raid if it's stacked up.

What's unkillable is a big raid spread out, constantly camping and rezzing faster than you can kill them.

The closest thing there is now to a ball group is probably Vehemence, and even we don't do it because there isn't any reason to! I mean, I'm still all for no AoE caps but at this point it's meaningless. A combination of VD, negate and support nerfs killed that playstyle.

Big raids spread out spamming ress and camps is nothing new to this meta. Bombard spamming is not new. This does not make this meta 'worse' or.. 'the worst weve had yet'. Weve had plenty worse. Namely, every single one where large masses flipped flags while enemies flailed around the ball groups helplessly looking for all of the tools that were stripped from the game.

Thanks for the learn to negate tips.

www.twitch.tv/FENGRUSH

You're right, Feng, that these skills and tactics are nothing new.

However, problems are often exacerbated by small changes. The main example of this thread: Negate + Bombard (or any cc for that matter) has no skillful counter. The biggest complaint against Radiant Destruction was/is similar. By itself negate is fine. By itself Bombard is fine. When they can be readily combined? Stupid, unskillful, and not fun (on either side).

You want tools to defeat big stacks of players. Fine -- so does everyone.

Players also want the ability to defend themselves and actually fight while in Cyrodiil. New gear sets, weapon trait changes, enchant changes, and tweaks to CPs have re-enabled one (or two)-shot builds. You know this as well as I do. In certain situations which are COMMON in Cyro and in IC you have zero chance to defend yourself: attacks from stealth, delay on CC break, etc. I've watched your videos where you DB/HA/DS someone for 40k+ damage -- you've wiped zergs doing this with one or two buddies. I would argue that access to this much damage in a 2s attack chain is ridiculous as well. When was the last time you thought carefully about engaging any player on the field because that player had any real defense against your damage? At this point, AoE caps are sort of moot.

Regardless, this is why players ball up (for better or worse): to (try) achieve protection against ridiculous damage. This behavior couples with various skills and specs that offer outrageous amounts of healing to create a self-reinforcing playstyle. Malubeth is popular not just because it is bugged, but because it offers the ability to protect yourself and stay alive and counter-acts the too-easy healing debuff status effect.

Bottom line: the introduction of the IC 50% Battle Spirit debuff was clear proof that ZoS has either zero clue nor any intention of attempting to balance the CP system with uncapped stats. Hybrid builds have no place and will never be viable without softcaps. Certain class specs are obsolete (mDK). Ball groups will remain as long as Map objectives funnel them to just a handful of places and players can be one-shot when they stray from the herd.

rich.magab14a_ESO · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

You should come back to this thread when you understand how the game works. I'll give you one for free though, immovable (skill, pots and immunity) only work on hard cc's, they do nothing about roots snares or negates.

oh well, my bad. You guys win the internets , carry on with the complaining

Zheg · June 2016

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

rich.magab14a_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

All I saw was FENGOLAS making sure he emphasized how much he agrees with me.

Here's the thing fengrush, the stack on flags and win only by stacking more bodies because no dmg went through was terrible - but that's not the combat meta. The combat meta (lag permitting) was prox, tornado, and barrier rotation. The meta now is bring tons, drop multiple negates, and blanket the area with spread out bombard spammers.

Not sure who you're fighting on haderus, but your 4 man will have a bad time on TF fighting 60+ red and blue that spam camps, and it won't be because of aoe caps. You still complain about ball groups and yet there are fewer than ever while the megazerg moving en masse from one objective to another is the reality and stronger than ever.

I WISH more of the megazerg would form ball groups - they'd be easier to kill and could push different objectives. If you're playing on haderus because TF lags, I'm sorry, but youre missing what the meta actually is because that's what's causing the lag that makes you flee. It's not the ball groups on TF - there are hardly any left and they're running fewer - it's the megazerg that is strengthened and encouraged by the current combat mechanics.

You know instead of complaining about bombard you and your raid could get some Immovable pots with speed and stamina. You could also slot the the immovable skill that's available to all classes. But hey that would require you and your guys to rethink their build and how they allocate resources.

You should come back to this thread when you understand how the game works. I'll give you one for free though, immovable (skill, pots and immunity) only work on hard cc's, they do nothing about roots snares or negates.

oh well, my bad. You guys win the internets , carry on with the complaining

Asking "can't you just use immovable pots" would have been sufficient. You tried to be snarky and imply veteran players were baddies and unable to adapt or theorycraft. If you're going to go with snark, you need to at least be factually correct.

Not sure why you're so shocked people are continuing to complain about the meta. Most of the recurring complaints have been backed up with comparisons of other similar skills and explanations for why particular mechanics are not functioning well. This is hardly a 'nerf sorc' style of thread.

fastolfv_ESO · June 2016

wait wait bombard negate has no counter? its been repeated over and over in the thread dont ball up dummy. Your group spreads out a little and it only catches a few people so its not the end of the world. Are you one of these people who likes to see his group walk in a perfect line like pvp needs to be perfectly synchronized. It wont destroy your gameplay to just go inc bomb grp spread out a little and converge when you push etc. its like people expect a pvp game to just stay stagnant its entire existence and the world is ending when one strategy doesnt work anymore. Im glad the days of det and bats or just plain impulse spam are dead and gone, this meta will cycle out just like all the other lame tactics were and replaced with a new one soon enough

Roechacca · June 2016

They should add a new crown store costume for me while I'm spamming bombard.

2d07df78784beb383a2cbe14f44e59b94de66828624a4ac64c1331495b3c964a_1.jpg

2d07df78784beb383a2cbe14f44e59b94de66828624a4ac64c1331495b3c964a_1.jpg

Zheg · June 2016

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

wait wait bombard negate has no counter? its been repeated over and over in the thread dont ball up dummy. Your group spreads out a little and it only catches a few people so its not the end of the world. Are you one of these people who likes to see his group walk in a perfect line like pvp needs to be perfectly synchronized. It wont destroy your gameplay to just go inc bomb grp spread out a little and converge when you push etc. its like people expect a pvp game to just stay stagnant its entire existence and the world is ending when one strategy doesnt work anymore. Im glad the days of det and bats or just plain impulse spam are dead and gone, this meta will cycle out just like all the other lame tactics were and replaced with a new one soon enough

15 people spreading out to fight 40+ people spread out usually only ends one way. Your point is about as relevant as the guy telling people to slot immovable to counter bombard. If you're unable to keep up with the conversation, you should bow out. We condense and spread when we need to, we're just observant enough to identify a particularly broken combo and meta thats more unhealthy for gameplay than any other broken combo we've had to date (imo at least, and there have been strong contenders for that title).

I've yet to hear any points made for why that combo is balanced and functioning well, or how it's helped stem the tide against the zergs that seem to get bigger with every patch. All I see are a few people trying to imply L2P but unable to back it up. Would you like to make that argument for why this is such a pleasant and well balanced meta? I'll even promise I won't tear your argument to shreds, I'll let everyone else do it.

Joy_Division · June 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet.

How is this meta worse than ball groups standing on top of each other on flags defying the need to pay attention to the environment once they hit a certain threshold of numbers vs the enemy bringing the server to its knees while everyone pretends theyre having fun on both sides.

Seriously????????

Everyone pick a day and try making groups under 8 people in Cyro and see how different the gameplay is. Until then, campaign for AOE cap removal and dream of a day the naysayers eat full damage next to their friends.

It's easier to kill stacked people then ever. Learn 2 negate. I need literally 5-6 people to kill a raid if it's stacked up.

What's unkillable is a big raid spread out, constantly camping and rezzing faster than you can kill them.

The closest thing there is now to a ball group is probably Vehemence, and even we don't do it because there isn't any reason to! I mean, I'm still all for no AoE caps but at this point it's meaningless. A combination of VD, negate and support nerfs killed that playstyle.

Big raids spread out spamming ress and camps is nothing new to this meta. Bombard spamming is not new. This does not make this meta 'worse' or.. 'the worst weve had yet'. Weve had plenty worse. Namely, every single one where large masses flipped flags while enemies flailed around the ball groups helplessly looking for all of the tools that were stripped from the game.

Thanks for the learn to negate tips.

www.twitch.tv/FENGRUSH

You're right, Feng, that these skills and tactics are nothing new.

However, problems are often exacerbated by small changes. The main example of this thread: Negate + Bombard (or any cc for that matter) has no skillful counter. The biggest complaint against Radiant Destruction was/is similar. By itself negate is fine. By itself Bombard is fine. When they can be readily combined? Stupid, unskillful, and not fun (on either side).

You want tools to defeat big stacks of players. Fine -- so does everyone.

Players also want the ability to defend themselves and actually fight while in Cyrodiil. New gear sets, weapon trait changes, enchant changes, and tweaks to CPs have re-enabled one (or two)-shot builds. You know this as well as I do. In certain situations which are COMMON in Cyro and in IC you have zero chance to defend yourself: attacks from stealth, delay on CC break, etc. I've watched your videos where you DB/HA/DS someone for 40k+ damage -- you've wiped zergs doing this with one or two buddies. I would argue that access to this much damage in a 2s attack chain is ridiculous as well. When was the last time you thought carefully about engaging any player on the field because that player had any real defense against your damage? At this point, AoE caps are sort of moot.

Regardless, this is why players ball up (for better or worse): to (try) achieve protection against ridiculous damage. This behavior couples with various skills and specs that offer outrageous amounts of healing to create a self-reinforcing playstyle. Malubeth is popular not just because it is bugged, but because it offers the ability to protect yourself and stay alive and counter-acts the too-easy healing debuff status effect.

Bottom line: the introduction of the IC 50% Battle Spirit debuff was clear proof that ZoS has either zero clue nor any intention of attempting to balance the CP system with uncapped stats. Hybrid builds have no place and will never be viable without softcaps. Certain class specs are obsolete (mDK). Ball groups will remain as long as Map objectives funnel them to just a handful of places and players can be one-shot when they stray from the herd.

Nice post @Ishammael !

fastolfv_ESO · June 2016

so your basically going i dont like this enviroment so im gonna cry here every day while claiming ive adapted. move on already or just shutup and see how they fix things

Wollust · June 2016

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

so your basically going i dont like this enviroment so im gonna cry here every day while claiming ive adapted. move on already or just shutup and see how they fix things

How would they know what to fix if people wouldn't complain?

Well not that it matters to much to ZoS I guess.

Zheg · June 2016

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

so your basically going i dont like this enviroment so im gonna cry here every day while claiming ive adapted. move on already or just shutup and see how they fix things

So, is it safe to assume you're one of the people that embeds yourself in 60 other players spamming bombard and patting yourself on the back telling yourself how good you are when you wipe 12 people?

You're either new to the game or not very bright if you think waiting and "seeing how they fix things" actually works in ESO. Combat changes in particular move at a glacial pace. We had completely bugged nirnhoned traits in game for what, like 6 months? Purge has been bugged for almost 6 months now, base movement speed has been broken for almost 6 months now, I could go on and on. Those are just the things ZOS has acknowledged they're aware of. Part of the point of this thread is that we don't hear from the combat team, so we don't even know if they think the permaroot meta that's frustrated players since TG is an issue, or whether they think they over-buffed negate. Fixes come on a quarterly basis every 3 months, and we're halfway through the lull period before we get another patch, so you either tell them ahead of time and maybe get the fixes in 1.5 months, or you wait at least 4.5 months. If you aren't intelligent enough to realize that ZOS does not 'fix things' unless badgered about the problems, you really have nothing to contribute to this or any other conversation on the forums.

Also, if you can't actually defend your points or hold your own in an argument, "shutup" is a pretty pathetic last ditch effort to save face.

Lore_lai · June 2016

I like how some people think that just because some are making their point about the cheesy bombard, that means they can't adapt.
Pretty sure VE and any other organized group can and have adapted and can still wreck while outnumbered.

That's not the point, the point is it's not fun when you get constantly spammed by roots and the counters are laughable.

I dunno - maybe some people like stopping dead in their tracks every second because of bombard monkeys, instead of having a fluid forward momentum, but some of us don't and we have every right to let the devs know our opinions/provide feedback.

Satiar · June 2016

Very much this. Between decrease to base run speed, the nerf to Rapids and now this permaroot meta.... PvP, win or lose, feels like blegh.

Makkir · June 2016

the amount of dmg stamina classes can put out is ridiculous this DLC, too ridiculous to justify having the insane stamina heals they also have. Tone down one or the other FFS

Xsorus · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics.

So basically become the problem?

That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.

We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.

To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....

The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)

But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...

While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.

Reading comprehension a problem? I just said that my complaints about the meta started largely with TG and my predictions largely came true to a T. VD was enjoyed by NBs for a couple of weeks, and then people realized it did nothing for the core problems and just added another nuisance problem on top of the pile. Fasallas, same thing. Camps, same thing. Bombard/rapid nerf, same thing. I said those kinds of changes will result in larger zergs and fewer fights on the map, they did. I said if you nerf the capacity of a group as much as they did all at once that small groups would end up suffering just as much, and they did.

Just about every point and every piece of logic has gone sailing over your head.

You mean your complaints started largely with exactly what I just stated? and you proceeded to complain in this very post about exactly what I stated....and which predictions came true? That you'd have trouble with things designed to make your setup have trouble? Also the larger zergs were directly a result of one thing and one thing only; and its something we both agree on....Forward Camps.

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

umagon wrote: »

It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics.

So basically become the problem?

That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.

We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.

To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....

The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)

But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...

While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.

To be fair; you are still ignorant and lack fundamental understanding of both this meta and how our groups operate.

I understand your group completely; hence why I know why you're always crying..

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

OK, let me see Zheg, I'll have to sift through my archives, but I think I have the perfect solution.

And behold, it is so written in the scripture:

frozywozy wrote: »

What is unacceptable for me is the level of intelligence that players have when they keep blaming Zenimax after 2years

Xsorus, you have no place in here, complaining about zerg balls or whatever it is you call anything over 4 ppl.

Once more, let us consult the holy book:

Xsorus wrote:

I will Zerg any day of the week and have zero problem admitting it

My work is done, have fun yall while I zerg ppl w/ my 6 man in Overwatch.

4 mans really can't be Zergballs.

I'd say 12+ is when you can really start calling them that.

RinaldoGandolphi · June 2016

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/244759/bombard-will-be-the-new-steel-tornado-this-must-be-addressed-before-the-tg-gets-out-of-the-pts/p1

I tried back in Feb to get this Bombard nonsense changed, i told them the day before the TG PTS went live that Bombard will be the new meta, you have Nado Spammers, but Nado spammers were nothing compared to this cancer (Bombard spam) that i saw coming.....i tried to prevent this from happening, but they wouldn't listen. I was fighting these groups all the time, im no fool it was easy to see they would go to it in mass once Nado was no longer so insanely good.

Bombard has driven more people to quit the game then anything else....NO ONE enjoys being unable to move and helpless its just poor design. A skill like Bombard has no place in the game...the snares from Arrow Spray and its morphs need to be removed, and the root from Bombard removed...

increase the DOT damage on Acid Spray so PVE DPS don't get miffed.
add Minor Fracture and Minor Breech to Bombard in place of the root and snare
Last but no least bombard needs to be a ground targeted AOE not a 20 meter cone attack.

Bombard is just one of the many things that are....bad for the game, with Forward Camps being the other....if we didn't have these Forward Camps, i don't think the lag would be anywhere near what it is right now....as it stands now you wipe a castles defenders and they are back instantly....there is no penalty for losing...i miss the days of if i lost and got no rez that was it....

We all had our fair share of getting killed denfeding a keep, but it was far better without camps...atleast the last Empo keep didn't go on forever like it does with Camps...

ok my rant is done. Sorry...:)

Armitas · June 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I tried to prevent this from happening, but they wouldn't listen.

They never do. They secret lab all this stuff till PTS then all they want from us on PTS is to tell them whether its bugged or WAI. It's so ridiculous the way things work here in this game.

I heard someone say...that ZOS was thinking about adding a cast time to it. I don't think that would matter though when you have 40 people casting it. Your option sounds much better.

Cinbri · June 2016

Give back Reduce Break Free to heavy armor passives, grant Immovable Brute 10% reduce time of root for each piece, so it would be 70% for 7 pieces. Rename it to Unstoppable Brute.

HoloYoitsu · June 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

4 mans really can't be Zergballs.

I'd say 12+ is when you can really start calling them that.

I am very confused now....

Xsorus wrote: »

4-8 could be considered zerging depending on which gameplay you're taking part in.

Xsorus wrote: »

While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.

I continue to be confused...

Xsorus wrote:

I will Zerg any day of the week and have zero problem admitting it

Joy_Division · June 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

4 mans really can't be Zergballs.

I'd say 12+ is when you can really start calling them that.

I am very confused now....

Xsorus wrote: »

4-8 could be considered zerging depending on which gameplay you're taking part in.

Xsorus wrote: »

While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.

I continue to be confused...

Xsorus wrote:

I will Zerg any day of the week and have zero problem admitting it

You obviously haven't played enough DAOC.