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When will we hear ANYTHING from the combat team on upcoming changes?
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PosternHouse✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
As I said twice already, the range on bombard is FAR greater than encase or talons. Talons is a defining characteristic of a DK, and is completely dwarfed in every way by bombard. You (incorrectly, I ran it and saw firsthand how easy it is to use) state that it's hard to land bombard on a group, but DKs have to be literally in the middle of a group to root people within a 6m radius. Every 'issue' you bring up with regarding bombard is more difficult for the people that were meant to actually be the aoe rooters. There was a risk to being a DK and getting that close to a group, that risk is greatly diminished for bombarders because of the range.
I'm really not understanding your point about organized groups. Yes, people can react to being rooted, the complaints are that you can be permarooted again and again and it's far easier for a bowtard to root you than it is for you to counter it. I can literally spam my purify now and not move more than 5m. There is no defending that, it's a terrible mechanic and a terrible meta. Let's also not pretend like we absolutely need permaroots because the dreaded ball group has no counter. Barrier rotation is gone, you have VD, you have fasalla's, you have stupidly high siege damage. Furthermore, the 'cure' to the ball group results in mega-zergs, which is far worse than any complaint you may have had about a ball group.
I would assume a bow ability would have range....
Anyways, I love how you segue into bombard causes the zergs.
It's like they didn't exist until people discovered the bow builds.
Bombard root spam was not an issue when we had non-broken purge and Rapid Maneuvers, which was once actually useful other than decreasing our horse simulator duration.2 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.
We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.
I always agreed on aoe caps but honestly man, it's not even a thing anymore. I can't even remember the last time aoe caps would have made a difference. Ball groups are a thing of the past.
When youre fighting 30-40 people with 4-6.1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭2. Fix negate.... It cannot frigging overrule other class AOE Ultimates....
Thats exactly what it does.. lol1 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭His point was that those 30-40 are spread out over a field on siege and spamming bombard in this patch. AOE caps being removed won't do much for you in this patch because people aren't as tightly condensed as they used to be. The tools you would need to take on odds like that have been gutted, and at this point aoe cap removal is one of the lessor impactful changes, ironic considering it would've been the most impactful change before TG.0 -
PainfulFAFA✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.
We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.
I always agreed on aoe caps but honestly man, it's not even a thing anymore. I can't even remember the last time aoe caps would have made a difference. Ball groups are a thing of the past.
When youre fighting 30-40 people with 4-6.
So sad people are already forgetting the state of the game before aoe cap and are content with this bs lol
Havent played in 4 days since i got zerged down and decided enough is enough too many zergs, not enough to fight back or hold your ground long enough to build ults and counter attack etc etc
Removong aoe caps will always be the only counter to these insane 30+ ball groups of healers and spambarders unless ofc you bring your own zergs and have fun playing in laggy fights.Edited by PainfulFAFA on June 22, 2016 5:16PM2 -
The-Baconator✭✭✭✭I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.
We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.
I always agreed on aoe caps but honestly man, it's not even a thing anymore. I can't even remember the last time aoe caps would have made a difference. Ball groups are a thing of the past.
When youre fighting 30-40 people with 4-6.
Very rarely when I'm in a top-tier 4-6 man group do we fail to wipe a group due to AoE caps. At this point I would say the survivabilty of the smallman in most situations is the greatest reason why we fail to wipe people--in literally 99% of outnumbered situations I would love it if people stood within the same 5x5 space. As everyone knows wiping sometimes +40 with 6 people is simply never an option in open field, so you must kit them into an enclosed space so you can kill as many as possible with your initial bomb and then either try to finish or LoS until another bomb is possible. At a certain point bombard and negate spam simply renders kitting next to impossible no matter the group size, which works toward the benefit of the megazerg the vast majority of the time.First PS4 NA Grand Overlord, Stormproof, and Flawless Conqueror.
Potato Lord of Atrocity3 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.
It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.
Pretty much just rage quit for the night over the same bs. literally 40 bow...users spread out twanging away mashing 1 button over and over while the one magicka solution is bugged. You can't even gap close away from the bombard spam toward that special snow flake dk trying to talon your forward group because every gap closer is broken. It needs a hot fix now.
Game is freaking skillless with this garbage it's the only combat sound in the entire game right now.Edited by Armitas on June 22, 2016 11:59PMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.
We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.Edited by Zheg on June 23, 2016 12:22AM5 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭
Do not take things out of context. Players can out range bombard and kill the user before they even get in range to use it. And doing so does not require a bow. The aoe damage can be countered; people's refusal use the counters is their own issue. I think the underlying issue isn't so much the problem with the roots but people's ap farm ball groups (large or small) not working anymore and they don't want to evolve. Gameplay changes regardless if people like it or not. Adapt and evolve or rot and die. It's just the nature of video games.0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
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That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.
We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.
To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....
The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)
But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...
While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos3 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
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Reading comprehension a problem? I just said that my complaints about the meta started largely with TG and my predictions largely came true to a T. VD was enjoyed by NBs for a couple of weeks, and then people realized it did nothing for the core problems and just added another nuisance problem on top of the pile. Fasallas, same thing. Camps, same thing. Bombard/rapid nerf, same thing. I said those kinds of changes will result in larger zergs and fewer fights on the map, they did. I said if you nerf the capacity of a group as much as they did all at once that small groups would end up suffering just as much, and they did.
That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.
We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.
To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....
The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)
But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...
While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.
Just about every point and every piece of logic has gone sailing over your head.Edited by Zheg on June 23, 2016 12:45AM1 -
Ghost-Shot✭✭✭✭✭
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That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.
We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.
To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....
The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)
But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...
While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.
To be fair; you are still ignorant and lack fundamental understanding of both this meta and how our groups operate.Edited by Ghost-Shot on June 23, 2016 12:46AM3 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
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Do not take things out of context. Players can out range bombard and kill the user before they even get in range to use it. And doing so does not require a bow. The aoe damage can be countered; people's refusal use the counters is their own issue. I think the underlying issue isn't so much the problem with the roots but people's ap farm ball groups (large or small) not working anymore and they don't want to evolve. Gameplay changes regardless if people like it or not. Adapt and evolve or rot and die. It's just the nature of video games.
The reason people form a ball group is because they are outnumbered. Staying close means they share support and heals. If i am outnumbered how does it serve me to stand by myself and 1v3 from range? Even more, why wouldn't I choose a bow and contribite to the problem if all I could do was pew pew from max distance? Bow > than destro for doing nothing but pew pew at max range.
Cyrodiil shouldn't look like this
Edited by Armitas on June 23, 2016 2:14AMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭
Do not take things out of context. Players can out range bombard and kill the user before they even get in range to use it. And doing so does not require a bow. The aoe damage can be countered; people's refusal use the counters is their own issue. I think the underlying issue isn't so much the problem with the roots but people's ap farm ball groups (large or small) not working anymore and they don't want to evolve. Gameplay changes regardless if people like it or not. Adapt and evolve or rot and die. It's just the nature of video games.
The reason people form a ball group is because they are outnumbered. Staying close means they share support and heals. If i am outnumbered how does it serve me to stand by myself and 1v3 from range? Even more, why wouldn't I choose a bow and contribite to the problem if all I could do was pew pew from max distance? Bow > than destro for doing nothing but pew pew at max range.
Cyrodiil shouldn't look like this
Cyrodiil already looks like that just play when its night time in game.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
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Reading comprehension a problem? I just said that my complaints about the meta started largely with TG and my predictions largely came true to a T. VD was enjoyed by NBs for a couple of weeks, and then people realized it did nothing for the core problems and just added another nuisance problem on top of the pile. Fasallas, same thing. Camps, same thing. Bombard/rapid nerf, same thing. I said those kinds of changes will result in larger zergs and fewer fights on the map, they did. I said if you nerf the capacity of a group as much as they did all at once that small groups would end up suffering just as much, and they did.
That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.
We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.
To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....
The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)
But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...
While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.
Just about every point and every piece of logic has gone sailing over your head.
Nah, our small group is stronger now than ever since 1.6. Thanks for your concern though.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU0 -
fastolfv_ESO✭✭✭✭✭so basically what zheg is saying is anyone who uses a bow or negate is toxic and adding to a "problem". It seems the only problem is his groups ability to adapt to change. Yes there are bugs with bombard negate and purge that need to be fixed but lowering mobility was apparently intended and spreading out is still a solution. Hell ask haxus how they cope, the first week or so of DB they had the same issues you guys did then they came back tougher then ever1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭fastolfv_ESO wrote: »so basically what zheg is saying is anyone who uses a bow or negate is toxic and adding to a "problem". It seems the only problem is his groups ability to adapt to change. Yes there are bugs with bombard negate and purge that need to be fixed but lowering mobility was apparently intended and spreading out is still a solution. Hell ask haxus how they cope, the first week or so of DB they had the same issues you guys did then they came back tougher then ever
Id say we adapted very well, actually. It took a few nights but it's mostly sorted.
Still.
Cancer meta is cancer. And extremely frustrating gameplay, regardless of success or failure. And ZoS continues to put in hard limits to what you can do with inferior numbers. This is no different, it's just another advantage to whoever can stack groups.Edited by Satiar on June 23, 2016 5:14AMVehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost0 -
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OK, let me see Zheg, I'll have to sift through my archives, but I think I have the perfect solution.
And behold, it is so written in the scripture:What is unacceptable for me is the level of intelligence that players have when they keep blaming Zenimax after 2years
Xsorus, you have no place in here, complaining about zerg balls or whatever it is you call anything over 4 ppl.
Once more, let us consult the holy book:Xsorus wrote:I will Zerg any day of the week and have zero problem admitting it
My work is done, have fun yall while I zerg ppl w/ my 6 man in Overwatch.Edited by HoloYoitsu on June 23, 2016 5:17AM2 -
frozywozy✭✭✭✭✭
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Reading comprehension a problem? I just said that my complaints about the meta started largely with TG and my predictions largely came true to a T. VD was enjoyed by NBs for a couple of weeks, and then people realized it did nothing for the core problems and just added another nuisance problem on top of the pile. Fasallas, same thing. Camps, same thing. Bombard/rapid nerf, same thing. I said those kinds of changes will result in larger zergs and fewer fights on the map, they did. I said if you nerf the capacity of a group as much as they did all at once that small groups would end up suffering just as much, and they did.
That's part of the reason steve and I are so peeved about this. We can pull the trigger and tell people in group they're putting on a bow and spamming one button, embracing the cancerous meta and adopting a playstyle that is in no way living up to the skill they possess. We can stack our group on top of 2 or more raids and pretend like we aren't completely disgusted with ourselves. Or, we can make a stink about it - for whatever good that will do until CU beta is finally out and we can run, not walk away from this horribly managed game.
We've had this meta for almost 5 months now? It was warned about as soon as the patch notes came out and this garbage hit the PTS for TG. It's compounded by the negate changes. We've seen some pretty awful metas before, and people are welcome to disagree, but for me this one has to be the absolute most frustrating and rage-inducing meta yet. Ironically enough I thought the TG meta was the worst, shows what I know.
To be fair; you've been complaining about the metas ever since Stacking became not as powerful as it was. which is ironic because you think CU is going to make stacking easy as well. I mean other then the negate change with the silence effect have always played the same way...Bombard has worked this way since way before TG update....Hell I use to use it on Zerg Stacks back when it only hit 6 targets period....Same with Negate..its always canceled out Ults....
The only thing that's really changed in the past few patches has been the slow decay of stacking....Its no longer the end all mechanic of the game.. While its still extremely powerful...When it runs into things like Negate and Bombard its having trouble...I'd say Prox Det and VD..but they pretty much gutted that unless you run 2 or 3 nightblades (which is really how that should work)
But you've pretty much complained about the same sorts of things every patch....Siege/Bombard/VD/Prox/Negate ect ect...Pretty much everyone of these things had an effect on Zerg Balling..which is something you tend to do...
While someone who doesn't zerg ball...me for example..Gave exactly two *** about any of those things.... I'm sure i'm not the only one either.
Just about every point and every piece of logic has gone sailing over your head.
What you have been saying non stop for the past 5months with your "I told you so" meme woman is assuming the fact that if people are running larger zergs right now, it is the results of the changes you described.
In reality, the only reason why zergs got bigger is because people in large guilds enjoy large scale PVP no matter the cost (latency issues). They enjoy relying on other people, getting carried and not worrying about min/maxing and getting good at the game with their own setup. This is the reality.
People zerg down because they wanna rely on numbers over skills. It has nothing to do with the new changes to maneuvers, purges, negates. People zerg because they enjoy big groups where your mistakes don't change much at the end of the fight.
That is sad but hey, this is how Cyrodiil was advertised and with the performance improvements that the vast majority of players have noticed the past couple patches, zergs will get bigger and bigger. Your best call is to wait for either CU beta or BGs/Arenas whichever comes first. I personally will enjoy small scale PVP instances in TESO whenever it arrives.
Cyrodiil was a nice dream in the beginning, but with Alliance points being way more important than Faction points for most players, the strategic aspect behind the war and winning the campaign is not happening anytime soon.Edited by frozywozy on June 23, 2016 5:54AMFrozn - Stamdk - AR50
Frosted - Magplar - AR50
Frodn - Magden - AR50
Warmed - Magblade - AR50
Mmfrozy - Magsorc - AR44
Necrozn - Magcro - AR32
Twitch.TV/FrozyTV
PvP Group Builds
“Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas.” -Eleanor Roosevelt- Fix Volendrung (spawn location - weapon white on the map causing the wielder to keep it forever - usable with emperorship)
- Remove / Change CPs System, remove current CP/noCP campaigns and introduce one 30days with lock, one with no locks
- Fix crashes when approaching a keep under attack because of bad / wrong rendering prioritization system
- Change emperorship to value faction score points and not alliance points - see this and this
- Fix long loading screens (mostly caused by players joining group out of rendering range)
- Add 2 more quickslots to the wheel or add a different wheel for sieges weaponry only
- Fix Balista Bolts not dealing damage on walls or doors if deployed at a certain place
- Release bigger battlegrounds with 8 to 16 players per team and only two teams
- Fix the permanent block animation - see examples : link1 link2 link3 link4 link5
- Gives players 10 minutes to get back into Cyrodiil after relogging / crashing
- Add a function to ignore the Claiming system of useless rewards
- Improve the Mailing System / Rewards of the Worthy stacking
- Assign specific group sizes to specific campaigns (24-16-8)
- Make forward camps impossible to place near objectives
- Make snares only available from ground effects abilities
- Change emperorship to last minimum 24hours
- Fix body sliding after cc breaking too quickly
- Remove Block Casting through Battle Spirit
- Fix the speed drop while jumping - see video
- Fix loading screens when keeps upgrade
- Fix Rams going crazy (spinning around)
- Bring back dynamic ulti regeneration
- Fix speed bug (abilities locked)
- Introduce dynamic population
- Lower population cap by 20%
- Add Snare Immunity potions
- Bring resurrection sickness
- Fix character desync
- Fix cc breaking bug
- Fix gap closer bug
- Fix health desync
- Fix combat bug
- Fix streak bug
- Fix server lag
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Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭fastolfv_ESO wrote: »so basically what zheg is saying is anyone who uses a bow or negate is toxic and adding to a "problem". It seems the only problem is his groups ability to adapt to change. Yes there are bugs with bombard negate and purge that need to be fixed but lowering mobility was apparently intended and spreading out is still a solution. Hell ask haxus how they cope, the first week or so of DB they had the same issues you guys did then they came back tougher then ever
I'm saying the combo of negate and bombard is poor game design. I'm saying the bombard meta has been in game for 5+ months and we've had plenty of time to let it play its course and see the aftermath. People across the board have been complaining for months about it, far more than just us. I'm saying that the combo of negate and bombard, while poor game design on its own, also strengthens significantly larger numbers - something we need less and not more of.
Haxus still has the same issues, I watch them almost every night be impacted by it. The same goes for every other organized group, and it's exacerbated when they're significantly outnumbered. Run 16ish and throw that against 2+ raids and the lobsided impacts of this meta are abundantly clear. Those same odds were in a better place even as of just the last patch.
We have adapted, to the extent that you can adapt without stacking raids like your opponents and putting more and more people on bombard spam. I went back to fulltime healer and am running a special snowflake build, steve is on a special snowflake build, and our sustain is back to where we like it. That doesn't mean one needs to be oblivious to the flaws of this meta.
As for the first line in your post, again, the meta is toxic, the player is only toxic if they spend all night long stacked in multiple raids abusing said meta.
@frozywozy it's optimistic to think that the zergs suddenly got bigger on their own. Yes, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but it's a very strong likelihood. There are 'fewer' organized pvp guilds than there were 5+ months ago, and many of those older ones have lower populations. I know you want to blame this all on large group pvp, but even you should be able to admit there's strong evidence a lot of these changes helped promote the increase in zerg-size (forward camps probably more than any of the others). Our average group size has been around 16 for this campaign cycle, and rarely breaks 20. And yet, I find myself trying gauge just how many ultimates I need to save on my initial bomb so we have enough to combat the 2nd and 3rd raids that are going to bomb us afterwards.0 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@FENGRUSH
I normally agree with most things you say but AoE cap hasn't really been an issue since TG. Especially nowadays I'd say the harder the opponents stack, the easier it is to kill them, especially if you have a couple of Negates.
@Zheg
I do agree that the effectiveness of Bombard + Negate is over the top and quite easy-mode, however it isn't the real issue as it works both ways. A small group can do significant damage to a large group (especially with Negates and roots *surprise*).
Imo the real problem is how easily the megazerg can res people without cooldown. If I could choose between removal of bombard or removal of soul-gem rez I'd take the 2nd every time. If the people that we kill would stay dead, everything would be so much smoother.- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP2 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Its a numbers thing - but it does matter less this patch. AOE caps still matter though, never forget.5 -
Wollust✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Imo the real problem is how easily the megazerg can res people without cooldown. If I could choose between removal of bombard or removal of soul-gem rez I'd take the 2nd every time. If the people that we kill would stay dead, everything would be so much smoother.
^This is the real cancer. The worst thing about the current meta is the completely overpowered ressing (since IC). You're a templar in kagrenacs? Go and res a whole fckng zerg in 30 seconds.
Edited by Wollust on June 23, 2016 2:05PMSusano'o
Zerg Squad0 -
Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@FENGRUSH
I normally agree with most things you say but AoE cap hasn't really been an issue since TG. Especially nowadays I'd say the harder the opponents stack, the easier it is to kill them, especially if you have a couple of Negates.
@Zheg
I do agree that the effectiveness of Bombard + Negate is over the top and quite easy-mode, however it isn't the real issue as it works both ways. A small group can do significant damage to a large group (especially with Negates and roots *surprise*).
Imo the real problem is how easily the megazerg can res people without cooldown. If I could choose between removal of bombard or removal of soul-gem rez I'd take the 2nd every time. If the people that we kill would stay dead, everything would be so much smoother.
I'm super curious what EU looks like, I find it interesting how different our metas consistently sound. Manual rezzing is almost non-existent on NA, opponents just stack raids for every fight and spam camps. We have hardly any 'large groups' left to fight against, it's just their group plus another raid plus tons of pugs on siege and bombard spam. I've been pretty vocal about the issues I feel camps have introduced, so I do agree with you that rezzing is an issue, but we almost never see manual rezzing be a problem on NA. You literally fight the same people every 2 minutes on NA until you get overwhelmed by numbers, it's moronic.
Yes, of course the meta works both ways, but it substantially favors the side with obscene numbers and is fairly simple even for pugs to pull off. I think it was this thread (though may have been another) where I talked about a fight where our group of ~16 pushed a blue keep and after dying to at least 1.5 full raids in a bomb group, plus tons of pugs on siege, I looked around and counted another 14 spamming bombard even while we lay dead and there was no one left for them to fight. They just kept 'twang' 'twang' 'twang'ing over dead bodies. All I could do at that point is wonder what the game had become and what a waste. In no way does that work equally for the smaller group, and the negate portion of the meta almost always comes down to who has the most negates.Edited by Zheg on June 23, 2016 2:13PM0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I had a dream last night....
x40, with sound.Edited by Armitas on June 23, 2016 4:33PMRetired.
Nord mDK5 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Imagine if at the end of a raid fight there were credits that rolled like at the end of a movie. It would literally look like this.
Bombard spammer #1
Bombard spammer #2
Bombard spammer #3
Bombard spammer #4
Bombard spammer #5
Bombard spammer #6
Bombard spammer #7
Bombard spammer #8
Bombard spammer #9
Bombard spammer #10
Bombard spammer #11
Bombard spammer #12
Bombard spammer #13
Bombard spammer #14
Bombard spammer #15
Bombard spammer #16
Bombard spammer #17
Bombard spammer #18
Bombard spammer #19
Bombard spammer #20
Bombard spammer #21
Bombard spammer #22
Bombard spammer #23
Bombard spammer #24
Bombard spammer #25
Bombard spammer #26
Healer #1
Healer # 2
Negate #1
Negate # 2
Negate # 3
Negate # 4
Negate # 5
How do you want to be known when those credits roll?
Edited by Armitas on June 23, 2016 4:52PMRetired.
Nord mDK5 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. The constant roots/snares and overall lack of mobility make gameplay less enjoyable. Here are a couple of issues I find particularly annoying:
1) Healing removes rapids. This made life even harder for the healers who already get focused hard and need to stay towards the rear of the group to do their jobs. #KeepHealersHappy.
2) Bombard Risk v. Reward is completely out of whack. Talons is a reasonable root because you need to be in the middle of the action, has relatively high cost and relatively modest damage. Bombard, on the other hand, allows players of any skill level of sit at the periphery of the battle, re-apply stacking roots/snares with zero cooldown, all the while doing massive AoE damage. It's just a broken skill.
3) I'm glade Negate got buffed but it needs a couple of tweaks. Right now if you get feared or stunned inside a negate you lose total control over your character. The Negate won't let you break free of the fear or stun, and the fear or stun won't let you move out of the negate. It doesn't matter how much resources you still have, in that scenario, you die because you literally can't do anything. There should never be an ability or a combination of abilities that leave you completely powerless even at full stamina/magicka.Edited by Kilandros on June 23, 2016 4:47PMInvictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT2 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet.
How is this meta worse than ball groups standing on top of each other on flags defying the need to pay attention to the environment once they hit a certain threshold of numbers vs the enemy bringing the server to its knees while everyone pretends theyre having fun on both sides.
Seriously????????
Everyone pick a day and try making groups under 8 people in Cyro and see how different the gameplay is. Until then, campaign for AOE cap removal and dream of a day the naysayers eat full damage next to their friends.8 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet. I agree with @Zheg that this meta is probably the worst we've had yet.
How is this meta worse than ball groups standing on top of each other on flags defying the need to pay attention to the environment once they hit a certain threshold of numbers vs the enemy bringing the server to its knees while everyone pretends theyre having fun on both sides.
Seriously????????
Everyone pick a day and try making groups under 8 people in Cyro and see how different the gameplay is. Until then, campaign for AOE cap removal and dream of a day the naysayers eat full damage next to their friends.
It's easier to kill stacked people then ever. Learn 2 negate. I need literally 5-6 people to kill a raid if it's stacked up.
What's unkillable is a big raid spread out, constantly camping and rezzing faster than you can kill them.
The closest thing there is now to a ball group is probably Vehemence, and even we don't do it because there isn't any reason to! I mean, I'm still all for no AoE caps but at this point it's meaningless. A combination of VD, negate and support nerfs killed that playstyle.Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2
