DKsUnite wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The problem with it not being fixed is that it is possible to boost DB to very high levels with the right setup. I remember a thread where someone did a build that, in PvE, healed 98% of his HP in a single cast.

I know that this build would not work in PvP, but while it is theoretically possible, ZOS might argue "if DB can reach healing values comparable to templar BoL, we can not with clear conscience make one extempt from battle spirit and not the other"

Thus, my proposal of fixing it at 33%, because 33% is much better what we have now, and gives ZOS an excuse for battle spirit exemption, while keeping the "spirit of the original intent for the ability", so to say.

the healers i play with do 15-20k BoL. Sorcs can get 30k shields. These are done with builds that are still very viable and playable even in solo environments (maybe not optimal but playable). Now if you consider what a DK must sacrifice to get a full health heal of dragon blood, its not even comparable. They need to sacrifice every bit of damage reduction, damage output, sets pieces and mundus.

While i understand where you are coming from, i dont think its a valid reason not to exclude it from battle spirit

Look at it from the viewpoint of someone in ZOS: "If this heal can be scaled upwards, then exempting it from battle spirit could potentially make it unbalanced".

I am afraid that this line of thinking will prevent the ability from ever getting boosted to a decent level. Fixing it at 33% creates a safeguard that will put such fears to rest. That is all.

This does not mean i wouldn't like DB to get a better boost, i just don't think it is realistic atm, and i would rather have something than nothing.

tbh, they need to remove the battle spirit debuff because it really screws with abilities especially when trying to balance pve vs. pvp and instead they need to rebalance the entire game to less damage and adjust pve accordingly.

Yeah that is what needs to happen.

But... they'll never do it. Too much effort required.

Jules wrote: »

omg vir its just @JuIes lol


edit: omg wtf? I can't find myself

You don't exist!!!

That 26 pages of mDK suggestions

Leo I PM'ed you my information, I'll look through it all in detail over the next few days when I'm not working, and throw in a few suggestions I have.

On a serious note to all who are contributing:

• Before suggesting something you really need to consider how the change you are proposing will truly affect all components of the game. This concept ranges from how damage dealing changes affect PvE vs. PvP to more minute details like "does adding major expedition to wings make it too good?" Because while I would love to become speedy batman, that may be too much goodness in one place.
• Conciseness is an important skill to have. I could make a 26 page document on my lonesome, but both the editor and the end-reader will appreciate short, succint information over rambles.
• What is the vision of the class? Both from the current status of the class and from what the developers have told us, DK's in general are intended to be stand your ground, front line damage dealers with fire/poison. It is reasonable to suggest a gap closer or a close up ground pound; it is not within the vision to suggest we deserve a teleport or an ice morph (if only... ice DK...). Even if you don't like or agree with this vision of the class, it is the general guidelines for how skills are made and balanced.

That being said, I've read a bit through the document and appreciate how well thought out the suggestions are!

Cheers.

Here is the problem. Last night I jumped a night blade on my mag dk. Any other class it's a big advantage. The Nb then uses viger and out heals all of my dps. I then continue to cc whip and blast at him. He just stands there and vigers. I then walk away in shame and log my magplar.

Magicka DKs are the only class that is punished so hard from roots and snares. That is why one of the wings' morph should be increased to 8s and gives snare and root immunity. It still can reflect a fix amount of projectiles.

@DKsUnite can you add this proposal to the list?

All stamina builds has no issue with snare and roots, magicka Templar can cleanse, magicka Sorc can streak (not optimal), magicka NB can use image (not optimal). It is funny that magicka DKs are the only fully mele class from all classes and has no utility to deal with roots and snares. Even for our speed buff first we need to target someone and second we should prey that the skill will work.

Armitas wrote: »

Preface and reason for Proposal.
I have another one that I want to hear peoples thoughts on before I add it. It has been mentioned before that "Health" should play a larger role in the in DK mechanics. Right now health is the singular factor in our healing through DragonBlood, the damage we cause from burning through kindling, and the shield we create for our group and ourselves. To buff either of these means to sacrifice damage through choosing magicka over health.

Other classes share a single resource that improves damage along with healing, shielding, dodging, and stealthing. This is what I call parallel offense and defense. We have what would be called perpendicular offense and defense in that our survival, through shielding and healing, come from a non damage stat.

Proposal
So here is what I propose. Add health as a damage stat via the kindling passive that increases the damage of any ardent flame dot simultaneously with magicka though at a weaker rate. That will make health and magicka a parallel stat by directly increasing our damage, and by relaxing the sacrifice between magicka and health we improve our survival through a larger health bar to defend against burst and executes, larger dragon blood heals, and larger igneous shield for the group and ourselves.

How it can work
To keep this from affecting PvE there would need to be an algorithm that dealt with default health in a way that minimizes it's effect. Because magicka would still be the most efficient dps stat in PvE peoples health bars will remain at the same levels they are now. Battle spirit would actually improve your damage directly through it's added health in PvP.

If the right algorithm is created to separate our base health from improving PvE dps, then this could also be changed to work on all ardent flame abilities rather than just dots. Thus improving our damage with whip. I think we could also improve elder dragon by adding max health per draconic ability slotted. With Draconic being a survival line it should remain clear of buffing PvE dps.

Let me know what you think, what could be improved, or if you hate it. If no one responds I will assume it isn't interesting or it sucks and so I will exclude it from the sheet.

i think the adding health thing is nice for elder dragon. NB has 3% for every shadow ability. Something similar, maybe 4% per would be a nice addition. I dont know about the damage thing, put it in if you want to, its just a suggestions document but i feel thats getting a little on the complex side

ebethke_ESO wrote: »

[*] Conciseness is an important skill to have. I could make a 26 page document on my lonesome, but both the editor and the end-reader will appreciate short, succint information over rambles.

I refined everything of mine I could. A lot of the pages are just from indentations and sectioning. It reads a lot faster than the page number implies.

Here are some things you may or may not want to add.

Healing: There is a general consensus on the forums that no one wants their class to be tied to a restoration staff, especially for self healing, but as it stands right now mDKs have no reliable self heals that don't require them to damage other targets. I'll provide an example, on my mDK tank with just about 40,000 health, I run The Ritual, 100pts in Blessed 30 pts in Quick Recovery, Coagulating Blood, Igneous Shield, as well as the passive healing buff from using a Draconic Power ability, yet if Im at 15% health I can barely get a 10,000 heal out of Dragonblood. Its honestly silly that I have to use Cleanse from the support tree to get a better reliable heal simply because it isn't effected by diminishing returns like Dragonsblood is. This is pretty much proof of what many people have said on the forums. Something as little as the 15% Max Health heal that Cleanse provides could be more effective than the 33% of missing health heal given from Dragonblood.

• Dragon Blood: Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of maximum Health and gain Major Fortitude, increasing Health Regeneration by 20% for 20 seconds.
  • Green Dragon Blood:Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of maximum Health.
    Also grants Major Fortitude, Major Endurance, and Minor Endurance, increasing Health by 20% for 20 seconds and Stamina Regeneration by 30% for 20 seconds.
  • Coagulating Blood: Draw on your draconic blood to heal 33% of maximum Health.
    Also grants Major Fortitude and Minor Vitality, increasing Health Regeneration by 20% and healing received by 8% for 20 seconds.
  
  Explanation of Changes: Removing the diminishing return on Dragon Blood will put it on level with Blessing of Restoration on a DragonKnight running 25,000 Health while it would still be slightly weaker than the Templar self heal, Breath of Life. Green Dragon Blood is rarely used anymore due to the fact that its buff does not stack with potions as it once did. Adding the Minor Endurance buff will allow it to be a bit more effective to people who use potions (Everyone...).
  
  Damage/Burst: Many people on the forums say that mDKs need a damage buff, but this just isn't true. The issue is unlike other classes we cannot build to be glass cannons while having the mobility to escape, mDKs have to focus on raising all of their stats and all of their regens (health regen is debatable I guess) in order to be effective. Another issue with mDK damage is we lack good burst combinations that aren't tied to ultimates (Meteor with Petrify). We have Ambush into empowered surprise attacks, Curse heavy attack frag, heck even templars have Dark Flare javelin radiant destruction, these are all combos each class can pull off that essentially end in a dead target if not avoided.
  • Empowering Chains: Launch a fiery chain to grasp the enemy pull you towards them, dealing x Fire Damage and granting you Empower, increasing the damage of your next attack by 20%. Target is knocked off balance.
  Explanation of Changes: I do not believe DragonKnights are lacking in the damage department when it comes to simple tooltips, but the ability to pull off an empowered powerlash after gap closing would be extremely useful when it comes to bursting people down, ontop of that it would allow us to heal up upon switching targets which would be a great help to the class.
  
  Survivabilty: Now this is where the class is really lacking. In ESO each class has their own form of active defences, sorcerers have shields, nightblades have cloak, and templars have the ability to go from nothing to full with one breath of life, stamina builds have strong HoTs paired with rolling and shuffle to avoid damage. We used to have a strong combination of active defence by making melee attacks miss while in our cinder storm paired with reflecting ranged attacks with unlimited wings, then we had our strong burst heal if we got low when paired with igneous shield, all ontop of holding block for decades due to having some of the best sustain in the game.
  • Ash Cloud:Summon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location, dealing x Fire Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second. Also reduces enemy Movement Speed by 70%. While standing in your Ash Cloud you receive Major Evasion adding 20% dodge chance.
  • Battle Roar: Activating an Ultimate restores Health, Magicka, and Stamina in amounts increased by 35% of the Ultimate's cost. This passive scales off of the casters highest resource.
  Explanation of Changes: It was changed a few patches ago to make Battle Roar scale on each separate resource as it was only scaling with max magicka at the time. This was a huge hit to mDKs stamina sustain and is paired with the loss of that miss chance, the nerf of wings, and the removal of stamina regeneration while blocking, especially when the passive is so tied to ultimates, which scale with the casters max resource. There isn't much explanation needed for the addition of major evasion to ash cloud other than it'll take the strain off of a mDKs health pool which is covered by a depressingly tiny igneous shield, as well as taken the stress off of their stamina pool.
  
  Sorry for the long and terribly written post. This will be the last post I make for DK changes as I feel like Im getting repetitive.

A couple of things I'd like to point out.
1. You can't exclude one skill from battle spirit. That isn't balance.
2. Infinites wings is broken. You would be a perfect counter to range. Instead it should be all projectiles in 4 seconds or 4 projectiles over 20 seconds, if anything were to change.
3. DKs don't need a buff to whip. It barely does less damage than surprise attack and concealed weapon with equal stats, doing even more with power lash and/or engulfing flames on target.

Now the things I would like to see.
1. Change db so it heal x% of max health, increasing the heal value by up to 300% with .ore health missing (similar to how healing ward's shield scales). This would keep it health scaling for tanks, and its niche as an anti execute while being decent with battle sport debuff. Adjust the base amount so it heals less than BoL at high HP and more at low for similarly built classes (can be tricky if it still scales from HP) @Armitas123 I think we discussed this before.
2. Major evasion in cinder storm.

Jules wrote: »

omg vir its just @JuIes lol


edit: omg wtf? I can't find myself

Yeah it never works

@Zarock32 I

Master_Kas wrote: »

Needed imo:
1. Evasion on cinder storm (casted where the player is standing).

2. Buff dragonblood.

Nice addition:
Flame dots does 10-25% more damage to low health targets (only flame to not buff stamdks further).

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The flame dots idea has merit. Possibly as a base effect on igneous weapons in addition to major sorcery?

I'm too lazy to go into descriptive details, besides, I already like most of what is suggested already.


I agree with making Dragonblood 33% of max health. Makes it a static heal while still staying in the line of thought of Dragonblood usage rewarding high health pools, all at the same time making it a viable heal. But again, there's the issue of battle spirit. If affected it turns into 16%... that's not great...


I feel like it would just be super simple to IGNORE battle spirit. There are certain heals that already do this(purify synergy) and best of all... doing this will leave PvE untouched.... I don't understand what the issue is Wrobel. Just make Dragonblood ignore battle spirit.


Whip dmg needs to be buffed. I feel like Molten Whip should function similar to Surprise attack. Give it a higher base damage and allow it to lower the target's spell resistance. Flame Lash should get a base damage buff but still be slightly lower then Molten Whip. Now we have flame lash doing acceptable damage that gets a slight burst with power lash, but Molten Whip is superior for true sustained pressure and allowing a very aggressive high risk/high reward magic DK tank style in PvP.


And now for the whole execute dilemma of DKs. Wrobel wants DKs to be unique in not having an execute and relying on DOTs. Alright, that's totally acceptable. But something needs to be improved upon with DOTs to make it viable in PvP. I think one of the ardent flame passives should allow -any- Dragonknight class skill that apply a fire DOT... to have it's damage per tick increase proportionally to the duration it lasts + amplified when a target stays within execute range.(kind of like what unstable flame stam morph does) This should be a class mechanic for DK. It should not be exclusive to a stamina morph for only 1 skill. By doing this, you allow DKs to fight a war of attrition in a meta that is all about burst. Now DKs have a niche. This would not affect PvE either.... since bosses are going to melt to radiant destruction, and every other execute that other classes can just spam.




These suggestions cover the core issues that Magic DK have for the most part. They lack survivabilty due to the poor state of Dragonblood. They lack damage as even in a full DPS spec, both whip morphs fall short compared to what other classes and specs can do. This issue is compounded with the state of DOTs in PvP being lackluster. Give DOTs a sneaky buff if you let them linger for too long, and it rewards attrition play-style while still having a hard-counter.(cleanse/purify/HOTs)



Thank you @DKsUnite for stringing this together. We cannot give up. Lets consolidate all these ideas and try to get more mathematic examples. We need to provide as strong a case as possible for Wrobel to consider.

Why not just make a Google Dropbox link with the doc so we can download it and mail us the link via the in-forum message system?

I would like this form too but in the above-mentioned manner please. It's not that I don't trust you it's that I don't like giving my private email away.

EDIT: nvm I just opened the link and saw that it's already a G doc so gg wp OP

Ishammael wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wrobel wants DKs to be unique in not having an execute and relying on DOTs. Alright, that's totally acceptable. But something needs to be improved upon with DOTs to make it viable in PvP. I think one of the ardent flame passives should allow -any- Dragonknight class skill that apply a fire DOT... to have it's damage per tick increase proportionally to the duration it lasts + amplified when a target stays within execute range.(kind of like what unstable flame stam morph does) This should be a class mechanic for DK. It should not be exclusive to a stamina morph for only 1 skill. By doing this, you allow DKs to fight a war of attrition in a meta that is all about burst. Now DKs have a niche. This would not affect PvE either.... since bosses are going to melt to radiant destruction, and every other execute that other classes can just spam.

What if you made the DK fire DoTs unpurgeable for 5s or so?

5 seconds is way much. Maybe for one of them, perhaps the first one applied. Or 2 seconds. Or change Elf Bane's 5 piece to make your fire DOTs unpurgeable.

I like the passive change idea better as it doesn't require any micromanaging. It might be too strong in PvE though.

Anhedonie wrote: »

To people saying magdk should outlast his enemies:
Then why on earth whip costs 3k magicka (without any reduce cost stuff) and hits so weak?
Damage should be slightly buffed and cost reduced by around 500 magicka. Basically return cost to pre-DB patch.

The scaling for whip isn't much lower than concealed weapon, another melee flammable attack. It does more dmg than concealed weapon if engulfing flames is on target. That's why whip will never see a dmg buff. Then it would outperform other single target abilities all together. The problem is DKs don't spec fully into dmg like other classes.