I completely agree with the OP. I'd like to add to this consideration for small trading guilds.

For months I maintained a small, socially-oriented guild who utilized a guild trader location outside of the main cities, mostly to offload gear obtained in trials and dungeons (things are a wee different today, considering the sheer amount of untradeable gear, except of late with DB where many things are BoE again). Apart from not being able to benefit from economies of scale (and therefore have a significantly harder time maintaining a guild trader), the fact that so few guild traders actually exist is a deterrent to any guild who can't afford to make million+ bids.

While I have a pretty strong understanding of the system (and of economics and finance in general, since I work in the industry), this is a video game. There are thousands, maybe even tens of thousands, of players who want to partake in the system, and their only option is to jump on board with one of the mainstream "large" trading guilds where they have no control or say in anything.

Consider for a moment the dozens of traders with which we can't interact or bid. They're everywhere - if you don't recall them, pay attention the next time you're running around outside of the major cities looking for that one elusive item (and in fact, they are many of the major cities too). Chances are that, were these traders real, they would get taken over by guilds that are still larger and more efficient than small, socially-oriented guilds, but the options would be more numerous, allowing for more players to actually enjoy the system. As is stands, the market can really only be played or "truly" enjoyed by people who dedicate the vast majority of their play time (and personal gold) to playing the markets and maintaining a large trade guild (and the relationships along with it).

This is called Barriers to Entry, and even IRL there are regulations (depending on your country) in place to prevent or limit such practices that are prohibitive by nature. It's one thing if guild ABC is preventing guild XYZ from that trader in Belkarth because of a bidding war. It's something totally different when a small guild of 50-100 members can't even afford to maintain a trader because even those that are well outside the jurisdiction of a major cities cost hundreds of thousands of gold, or there is a fake trader right next to them that someone could bid on, if only they weren't, you know, fake.

There are plenty of ways to encourage participation by small guilds too, but I won't get into that here. I just thought it might appreciated by some of the smaller guilds to be mentioned. It's okay to be forced out of business (so to speak) by a guild of comparable size and net worth simply because they outbid you and better manage their resources. It's not okay to not even get a shot at it because so few traders actually exist. A system where an "eligible" guild is prevented from even obtaining a stall is one that needs to be revisited and revised.

Autolycus wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to encourage participation by small guilds too, but I won't get into that here. I just thought it might appreciated by some of the smaller guilds to be mentioned. It's okay to be forced out of business (so to speak) by a guild of comparable size and net worth simply because they outbid you and better manage their resources. It's not okay to not even get a shot at it because so few traders actually exist. A system where an "eligible" guild is prevented from even obtaining a stall is one that needs to be revisited and revised.

If you look at the thread on these topics that's been around for over a year: tiny.cc/esoguild

We've been asking for more traders for over a year as well. Refuges... why only one? If they put even 2 into the refuges and starter islands then a LOT more players would go into them to shop. There are 2 fake kioss on Bleakrock for instance, just man them. They have added more traders with Orsinium, Hews bane, and Gold Coast, but a smallish percent and one that not all players can access.

I think there is a line where at some point there could be too many traders. Some dedicated players like to shop every single stall 1-2 time a week. That's part of why I'd rather see them add another trader to every refuge and starter island than to add too many new locations to the word. If you look around today you'll see many guilds out there with stalls that only have 100 items or less, I consider those vanity bids, the guild got the stall mostly to see their tabard on a trader. Those are part of the system and every guild with 50 member's right, but I wouldn't want to see hundreds of additional kiosks making it hard to find the ones with actual stores in them. There needs to be a balance, add the right number of additional stalls that gives new guilds and PVE and PVP guilds way into the market.

On another note, to the player who commented that people who join large trade guilds have no say in the way the guilds do business... You should maybe consider choosing your trade guilds based on which ones have a culture that you enjoy. There are definitely very different types of guilds and values. Speak up. Many GMs are happy to hear the opinions of their members, even if you will find most very tight lipped on bidding plans due to the possibility of spying.

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

No thanks, I do not want this. As others have said, there is a good community built up around trading guilds, I enjoy running a trading guild myself, and as a member of other trading guilds I like being a part of a wider community.

Agree with @nooblybear that the main thing I want, in terms of basic essentials, is to have the ability be online for trader switchover, NOT to have it happen in the middle of maintenance.

Translation:

No thanks, I like being part of the one percenter community and manipulating the unregulated Tamriel market to oppress the 99%. Price fixing, bid rigging, and market allocations.... It's all here and wow is it fun!!! The unregulated Tamriel marketplace and the politics between the top 5-10 trade guilds not only results in a fun system to us one percenters, and is not only much more rewarding than using the auction house system ZoS sought to avoid, it takes less time!!! With auction houses, players have to vigilantly watch their segment of the market, while with trade guilds, we just agree that all but one guild will price over a set amount! Oh, and lest I forget, close any threads that might lead to market instability and fair prices! https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273446/this-is-the-war-of-trading-guilds/p5

Ok, so I am not being completely fair to Epona, but seriously, step into the shoes of the average player and you will find that only a small segment of the population are or can reap the benefits of the 'fun' current system.

So the trade guilds shut down that thread? I love it when conspiracy theorists make themselves sound loony toons.

Danksta wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

No thanks, I do not want this. As others have said, there is a good community built up around trading guilds, I enjoy running a trading guild myself, and as a member of other trading guilds I like being a part of a wider community.

Agree with @nooblybear that the main thing I want, in terms of basic essentials, is to have the ability be online for trader switchover, NOT to have it happen in the middle of maintenance.

Translation:

No thanks, I like being part of the one percenter community and manipulating the unregulated Tamriel market to oppress the 99%. Price fixing, bid rigging, and market allocations.... It's all here and wow is it fun!!! The unregulated Tamriel marketplace and the politics between the top 5-10 trade guilds not only results in a fun system to us one percenters, and is not only much more rewarding than using the auction house system ZoS sought to avoid, it takes less time!!! With auction houses, players have to vigilantly watch their segment of the market, while with trade guilds, we just agree that all but one guild will price over a set amount! Oh, and lest I forget, close any threads that might lead to market instability and fair prices! https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273446/this-is-the-war-of-trading-guilds/p5

Ok, so I am not being completely fair to Epona, but seriously, step into the shoes of the average player and you will find that only a small segment of the population are or can reap the benefits of the 'fun' current system.

So the trade guilds shut down that thread? I love it when conspiracy theorists make themselves sound loony toons.

Well no. The post you are referring to never points a finger and if I did it would be at ZoS, who built this shady system.

However, since you broached the topic....

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3092554/#Comment_3092554

#closerequest indeed.

EU trade guilds aren't really in a situation where the weekly maintenance has an affect on bidding. Since it is at 7pm PDT Monday evening 3am BST Tuesday morning. (meaning this literally happened 45 minutes ago for EU and maintenance was done several hours ago.) Unless the weekly fix runs excessively long.. there is no real reason for EU people to be upset, other than the early morning hunt if their trader is lost. The only server this actually has an impact on is NA.

I, for one, would prefer a world market broker with several locations to access it. Not this run around for hours trying to find a good deal situation.

For every person that is out to inflate prices, there is ten that would lowball and undercut the heck out of them. No matter what kind of system there is, someone with enough coin in their pockets will find a way to play the market. That's half the fun of a global broker. The biggest complaint is that half the current guild traders aren't getting the full extent of their business because 1. People don't want to waste any more time than is necessary to find an item at a price they are comfortable paying. 2. Not everyone is aware of all of the possible locations for traders. 3. Who wants to spend hours going from store to store without the ability to 'search' properly?

Each type of trader situation has it's pro's and con's.

Autolycus wrote: »

@ElfFromSpace No argument coming from me here. Many of the traders you mentioned are those which I had in mind when making the post. I also agree that it would be unwise to add dozens or hundreds of "new" trader locations for the exact reasons you mentioned, but I would like to see ZOS make use of those that exist but are currently nonfunctional. I've seen those "vanity" bids too, as I'm sure most people have, and I respect that point as a rebuttal against my recommendation.

Agreed, it's all about the balance. Ideally I'd like to see enough stalls to support both a few vanity bids (There's nothing wrong with throwing a bit of gold away to take a screenshot with your trader once) and some options for guilds who lose their weekly bid to find backups. If they added one more trader to every refuge (19 by my count) and 1-2 to each starter island (2 in each faction makes 6 more) that would add 25 traders to the game. Currently there are 157, and with the recent influx of players this seems slightly insufficient. They could try adding the refuge traders and then check how the market was doing to see if the island ones are also needed.

As for this comment, I did make a statement that said this to some extent, though I'm not sure if this is directed at me. I'm not disagreeing with you - I'm a member of large trading guilds that do actively encourage feedback and support a culture that encourages member involvement. My comment specifically wasn't aimed at labeling all or most trade guilds as those which would discourage these practices. My point was to illustrate the pressure for members of small guilds, who are in many cases very happy with the culture of their guild, who wish to see it excel and want to support it above others (especially those that are not "trade" guilds but have the luxury or participating in the trade features of this game), to seek membership in a dedicated trade guild with a near-full or full roster to consistently have access to a trader.

With the utter lack of sleep I've had the last 2 days I honestly can't remember who I was referring to. However I have personally helped several PVP and PVE guilds get traders. Although I run a trade guild, I have to admit that in my heart I feel that PVE and PVP guilds who are able to also sustain a reasonable trader are giving their members more. 2 for 1. They get more fellowship, more services for the members, more community enhancement. It's VERY hard to get members of trade guilds to do much of the higher end content. You can get a nice skyshard run, throw a party, maybe a world boss farm, but trying to recruit for trials like SO you face the barrier that most of your members who are ready for that content have PVE guilds they'd rather run with. I recommend that players join a mix of trade guilds and I have many suggestions to help non trade guilds raise gold and store awareness when getting their stall off the ground. One of my favorites is making a bit of a chat game of giving out random prizes to members who have items up for sale in the store. Even small prizes help, and it's a great way to bring up the topic and answer the question "We have a guild store?"

Damianos wrote: »

For every person that is out to inflate prices, there is ten that would lowball and undercut the heck out of them. No matter what kind of system there is, someone with enough coin in their pockets will find a way to play the market. That's half the fun of a global broker. The biggest complaint is that half the current guild traders aren't getting the full extent of their business because 1. People don't want to waste any more time than is necessary to find an item at a price they are comfortable paying. 2. Not everyone is aware of all of the possible locations for traders. 3. Who wants to spend hours going from store to store without the ability to 'search' properly?

Each type of trader situation has it's pro's and con's.

Yep exactly.... I get burned out running from trader to trader... load screen after load screen in hopes of finding a set piece that i need. Most times i just give up due to the travel and constantly having to set my search parameters.

The current system needs to be revamped and soon because right now it only benefits a minor part of the Eso community (on a regular basis).

Ps. I am fully aware that with the current system you can find some amazing deals... Just prior to DB release i found a complete Gold vet16 Transmutation set for about 4k gold each piece. This was 5 gear and 2 weapons (fire staff and resto staff).

But in the end my time is more valuable than some occasional great deals!!

Hammy!!!

Autolycus wrote: »

During the periods of time which some of these smaller guilds actively maintained a trader, even if those who actually used it daily and turned considerable profits were limited in number, it was still an uplifting experience for those members. I distinctly recall several people in one of those guilds expressing how excited they were to peddle their goods in their favorite guild - the one that they joined and stayed because they love the people, that they call home, so to speak.

That is one of the biggest challenges, is just getting members aware that they need to USE and support the store to keep a kiosk for their PVE/PVP guild. I can't count how many times members of my PVP guild asked me for an invite to my trade guild, and I looked and saw that they were wasting their opportunity to sell in the prime trader that the PVP guild was paying for. I've honestly turned a lot of them down. More members need to pay attention and support those stalls because, as you'll see in another post, buyers get pretty irritated if they feel they're wasting their time even looking in your guild's store.

What do you think about my proposed bid system changes for city bidding (a few posts back)? Of the PVE guilds who asked me for advice this week over half of them lost their bids This is very hard to prevent since the bid system's blindness hits hardest to those trying to push their way into the market. The maintenance time compounded the situation since not one of them was able to get a hire stall. It's very frustrating when you are completely in the dark and guess incorrectly which stall to bid on meaning that your bid of 100K loses and the stall next to it is hired by someone with a faster computer and no items for sale at 100g

This maintenance during the trader switch really needs to stop. My sleeping patterns are bad enough as it is, and the bids on early Monday mornings always makes it worse. Taking the servers offline for maintenance hours before the switch and then the servers still being offline when the switch happens seriously damages my sleep schedule; it is compounding an issue that was already bad to begin with.

Please, have some courtesy to your customers; we shouldn't have to point out this is an issue.

I sympathize OP, and agree that this should be sorted. Guilds and the Trader System in general could use a little love, I can't describe how nice it would be to not have to manually stack items in Guild Banks, and having to re-enter all the information for a search at every trader is even more of a headache now with levels being based on CP's, the least ZOS could have done is have that slider to select level move more quickly. We need a better search interface desperately, you should only be able to search one Trader at a time but you should have a more intuitive interface for doing so that doesn't involve as much time and effort just entering in the information for what we want.

On topic though, yes this sounds like a very annoying problem on top of the Guild Trader system's other issues, and it should definitely be sorted. I agree though with everyone saying to hell with an AH, it may need a few tweaks but I quite like this system and don't want it replaced, just fixed so it works more efficiently and with a bit less hassle. You're already going to have to go through the hassle of talking to each Trader individually, it shouldn't be any more of a hassle than that, and right now it's way more annoying searching for things than it should be.

How little sleep do vampires need? Is that the trick, we should all become undead killers and that's how we survive the torture they call a bidding system. I think that someone in ZOS is having a joke on the rest of us with this maintenance time. I AM SORRY. I am sorry I said that 8 am the same day as bids was the worst possible time for maintenance! I didn't expect you to find a way to actually make it even worse

This new maintenance time is making it harder and exponentially more frustrating for everyone, small and large guilds alike, who are trying to bid on traders.

I've lost track of how many people I've spoken with who are looking for advice on where to bid for their guilds. This new quirk of maintenance right in the middle of trader change over time just compounds the issue of already incredibly high demand on 170 or trader locations in the game; I wouldn't want to guess at how many guilds there are on either server trying to compete for that many spots.