Zenimax needs to be more considerate to GMs of trading guilds

GorraShatan

Sorry for the harsh done here - I do realize that the people working on this game care a great deal about it. This just drives me nuts is all.

But seriously. As of right now, GMs of trading guilds don't find out if they won their bid for guild traders until after the maintenance. Which means they need to log on just before maintenance, wait an indeterminate amount of time, and then if they didn't win their bid scramble around to find a trader that isn't already taken.

I'm not one of the people affected by this, but I am someone who benefits from the unpaid work these guild traders do, and I think this situation is ludicrous. I realize it's not intentional, but someone really should have thought it through. Yes, it's an imperfect market and yes it's hard; that's what makes it interesting and compelling. Hard shouldn't mean forcing GMs to wake up at 3:OO AM and then staying up for god knows how long in order to keep your trade guild viable. Hard game mechanics shouldn't include screwing with people's sleep schedules. That's just stupid.

There are broader solutions that could help address this better in the long term - like having a second 24 hour bidding period for any guild traders that don't go in the first round - but for starters, it shouldn't be too much to ask to not have maintenance at the same time as when bids on traders close! Seriously - instead of being 15 minutes seeing if you one your bid and potentially scrambling for a new trader, now it's god knows how long. What gives?

Look, it's been obvious for a while that the suits at Zenimax don't give two craps about the community here or the long term health of this game. The cuts to community content were proof enough of that. I don't get that impression from the people who actually work on the game though. It would be good to know what if anything is going to be done about this. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or anyone else from ZOS... I'd appreciate a comment if you could.

Thanks.

susmitds

+1

Turelus

This does need some kind of a better system than early morning camping for vendors.

I love the guild trader system but ESO shouldn't need alarm clock ops to get things done.

bottleofsyrup

I also feel for the trading guild leaders. It's silly that the bidding times couldn't have been changed when the maintenance times were. Why should the traders flip 2 hours after maintenance has already began?

As a side-note, Gina is on maternity leave.

Epona222

I posted more or less the same thread a couple of hours ago...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273416/can-we-please-have-maintenance-and-guild-trader-switchover-times-so-that-they-dont-overlap

GorraShatan

Epona222 wrote: »

I posted more or less the same thread a couple of hours ago...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273416/can-we-please-have-maintenance-and-guild-trader-switchover-times-so-that-they-dont-overlap

Hopefully if enough of us bring it up someone will get a response.

KingMagaw

This has been said before, many times. Makes sense. Has Zo$ ever acknowledged it?

Blobsky

Just change bids to daily, not weekly

nooblybear

Blobsky wrote: »

Just change bids to daily, not weekly

That would unfortunately merely increase the anxiety load. If I had to bid on a daily basis for a guild trader, I would stop running the guilds I do.

I'd rather they simply make it so that the time that traders switch over does not conflict so heavily with maintenance, giving us an opportunity to use the tools and timing they have provided.

Epona222

Blobsky wrote: »

Just change bids to daily, not weekly

For crying out loud, it's bad enough that I do this once a week, you want me to do this every day?

Please let me know where the memorial garden for exhausted deceased trading guild GMs and officers will be located.

Blobsky

Epona222 wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Just change bids to daily, not weekly

For crying out loud, it's bad enough that I do this once a week, you want me to do this every day?

Please let me know where the memorial garden for exhausted deceased trading guild GMs and officers will be located.

I lead one of the biggest on PC, I'd prefer daily - Means that losing a spot isn't life ending, reducing stress

Epona222

Blobsky wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

Just change bids to daily, not weekly

For crying out loud, it's bad enough that I do this once a week, you want me to do this every day?

Please let me know where the memorial garden for exhausted deceased trading guild GMs and officers will be located.

I lead one of the biggest on PC, I'd prefer daily - Means that losing a spot isn't life ending, reducing stress

Well that's nice for you, I completely disagree though.

Vyshan

Or they could put in a global Auction House, and fix all the marketplace problems in one fell swoop!

#AuctionHouse2016

Blobsky

Vyshan wrote: »

Or they could put in a global Auction House, and fix all the marketplace problems in one fell swoop!

#AuctionHouse2016

I'd love that! Much more convenient and removes power-positions

Epona222

Vyshan wrote: »

Or they could put in a global Auction House, and fix all the marketplace problems in one fell swoop!

#AuctionHouse2016

No go away a lot of us here who run trading guilds actually enjoy doing it, but are just frustrated with the fact that server maintenance co-incides with bidding times.

I am in favor of trader cycles not coinciding with maintenance, I am not in favor of AH.

MornaBaine

The entire trading system needs to be revamped into something that is more user friendly for both traders and buyers. I frankly would like 5 additional guild slots that are ONLY for trade guilds. I resent having to use my precious guild slots for trade guilds just to have a place to sell my items. If a guild leader could designate their guild as a trade guild and then it would go in a special trade guild only guild slot and not count against your "regular" guild slots it would go a loooong way towards stimulating the entire trading system in this game.

Also, agree with the OP. That is pure irritation and nonsense for GLs to have to put up with.

nooblybear

MornaBaine wrote: »

The entire trading system needs to be revamped into something that is more user friendly for both traders and buyers. I frankly would like 5 additional guild slots that are ONLY for trade guilds. I resent having to use my precious guild slots for trade guilds just to have a place to sell my items. If a guild leader could designate their guild as a trade guild and then it would go in a special trade guild only guild slot and not count against your "regular" guild slots it would go a loooong way towards stimulating the entire trading system in this game.

Also, agree with the OP. That is pure irritation and nonsense for GLs to have to put up with.

Other options, frequently presented to Zenimax, could include increasing the number of sales slots you have, increasing the number of guilds you can join, etc. Improvements to the system (removal of the ability to bid-spy, allowing people to undo accidental bids) would also be great.

However, at the minute, allowing us to be online for the bid and the post-bid period would be enough for me.

Malpherian

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

nooblybear

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

A large community has built up around traders and trading guilds. Some of my closest friends in game are those I know from these guilds, and they add a level of immersion and fun to the game that doesn't exist in others -- certainly not in WoW. In ESO, you can actually work together with your guild to achieve a great location and great sales.

I would not for the world want that taken away now.

GorraShatan

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

It also "fixes" everything that's interesting about ESO's marketplace. No thank you. Maybe you don't get the appeal, but a lot of the rest of us do, as do the folks at ZOS it seems. I'd suggest at least understanding the other side's perspective in order to make your points more effectively.

Epona222

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

No thanks, I do not want this. As others have said, there is a good community built up around trading guilds, I enjoy running a trading guild myself, and as a member of other trading guilds I like being a part of a wider community.

Agree with @nooblybear that the main thing I want, in terms of basic essentials, is to have the ability be online for trader switchover, NOT to have it happen in the middle of maintenance.

Pomaikai

This isn't rocket science. Just change the day the weekly trader bidding cycle starts on. Tuesday's? Wednesday's?

Shazgob

GorraShatan wrote: »

Sorry for the harsh done here - I do realize that the people working on this game care a great deal about it.

I had to stop reading here, because this is the biggest lie I've ever read. The devs don't give a *** about this game, and you can ask any hardcore player, PvP or PvE side, or has been around and paying attention for a long ass time. AT BEST, they care about the casuals who have a fat wallet, and that's it.

Epona222

Pomaikai wrote: »

This isn't rocket science. Just change the day the weekly trader bidding cycle starts on. Tuesday's? Wednesday's?

Agree completely. My suggestion was Wednesday (on the basis that NA maintenance used to be on Monday, and EU maintenance used to be on Tuesday).

I'm fed up of my hair turning greyer every Monday because of this ridiculousness - I should be able to log in a bit before trader switchover and scramble if need be, I shouldn't have to sit here for several hours waiting for maintenance to finish to even know whether my bid won or lost. It's ridiculous. If ZOS in some way thinks this is helping smaller guilds, they are wrong - it's smaller guilds (that don't have a team of officers on hand to look for traders if a bid is lost) that are hit hardest by having maintenance in the middle of it all.

AlnilamE

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

I play Black Desert, which has a centralized market, and I much prefer ESO's system.

Pomaikai wrote: »

This isn't rocket science. Just change the day the weekly trader bidding cycle starts on. Tuesday's? Wednesday's?

Or switch maintenance to Tuesdays?

ElfFromSpace

I'd suggest people take a look at the thread that's been in the forums and maintained for over a year tiny.cc/esoguild

There, for over a year, we've had a list of proposed changes including the moving of maintenance away from bids.

These are the biggest problems I see with the current bid system:

1. It causes unnecessary stress for GMs with the high level of uncertainty
2. It causes harsh feelings and direct negativity between GMs. Last week I made a bidding move for my guild to make a more secure and lower cost bid, and in exchange got accusatory/aggressive responses. The system, more than the GMs, causes this direct level of competition "You came after me" sort of thinking.
3. It puts insane pressure on small guilds trying to get established. They bid amounts in the starting areas are the most unpredictable with one stall sitting open and the one next to it is lost for 100K or more. These starting guilds cannot afford the losses like established ones since the members have little to no loyalty.

My proposal from the other thread is city bidding with a preference.

Proposal: Each GM approaches any stall within the city. They place their bid along with a priority of which kiosk they want ranked 1-X for each kiosk in the city. The top bid in the city gets their first choice. The second bid in the city gets their first choice of what's left, so on, til all spots are full.

Pros: This would HELP small guilds since it would make it easier for them to get win a stall somewhere in a city with any reasonable bid. Guilds who tried to go cheap on bids would always run the risk that they'd be knocked out if new guilds moved in. Refuges and roadside traders would remain good options for those who want to gamble with low bids.
It would remove most of the 1 on 1 direct attack and negativity from the bid system. It would be far more robust than backup bids alone.
It would allow guilds to build up a guild loyalty and identity linked to their stall, while also having less severe consequences if they lose their spot and are placed elsewhere in the city.
It would greatly minimize the damage possible from the bid spying issues, since, to be effective, a spy would have to spy on the majority of guilds in that area.

I think the confusion is that ZOS has got the idea that having the current system gives small guilds a chance because they might win with a low bid. The reality is that most small/new traders lose their bids at least half the time because there are often multiple guilds going after any spot that looks weak and most small guilds are reluctant to take on well established guilds with large banks. This means they tend to pay MORE for the weeks they win than other guilds in the area, and still lose their bids half the time. The proposed change would mean that all newcomers to a city who bid more than the normal lower bids in that city will reliably get a spot, making it much easier for building guilds to guarantee traders while they build up their member base.

The hiring is just as broken. With this maintenance they are making the hiring much more random. The first person with a fast internet and computer who happened to log out in a particular city hires, often hiring for vanity for guilds that really aren't using their store. So we might be seeing a wider variety of guilds in stalls, but that variety does not accurately reflect the health of the new guilds.

DRXHarbinger

Most traders on console just put in stupidly large bids to not worry about a trader anyway. One of which has only lost it once after I donated 2m for a bid to be put down just to move then out of it lol. Put down 4m the week after we still lost it they wanted it that bad.

They should just make bids visible and let them go to the highest bidder (reject it straight away and let you bid more and more) or have a buy it outright price if they want it that bad.

Epona222

I actually think it does a disservice to the people who sat and discussed this issue during downtime today, and who care about their guilds, to suggest such a crass 'solution'.

SirAndy

Also, i'd like to add that i think we need more guild kiosks. Currently smaller guilds are completely driven out of the trader market.

The prices have been heating up over the last several weeks and even the most undesirable trader locations now command a pretty hefty sum.

Wreuntzylla

Epona222 wrote: »

Malpherian wrote: »

Like we told them in Beta... They need to Add a centralized Market (Auction house). Keep the guild traders so guilds can publicly sell there goods in areas without an AH. And make AH's only available in Main cities.

This fixes your problems in totality. Why ZOE hasn't done this is just... Mind boggling. I mean software wise it's an extra NPC, and a snipet of code that combines the current market system with the NPC that allows access. It could be created in less then a day.

No thanks, I do not want this. As others have said, there is a good community built up around trading guilds, I enjoy running a trading guild myself, and as a member of other trading guilds I like being a part of a wider community.

Agree with @nooblybear that the main thing I want, in terms of basic essentials, is to have the ability be online for trader switchover, NOT to have it happen in the middle of maintenance.

Translation:

No thanks, I like being part of the one percenter community and manipulating the unregulated Tamriel market to oppress the 99%. Price fixing, bid rigging, and market allocations.... It's all here and wow is it fun!!! The unregulated Tamriel marketplace and the politics between the top 5-10 trade guilds not only results in a fun system to us one percenters, and is not only much more rewarding than using the auction house system ZoS sought to avoid, it takes less time!!! With auction houses, players have to vigilantly watch their segment of the market, while with trade guilds, we just agree that all but one guild will price over a set amount! Oh, and lest I forget, close any threads that might lead to market instability and fair prices! https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/273446/this-is-the-war-of-trading-guilds/p5

Ok, so I am not being completely fair to Epona, but seriously, step into the shoes of the average player and you will find that only a small segment of the population are or can reap the benefits of the 'fun' current system.

Malpherian

Tthere's already a 100 thread's about this on the forums that's been there over a year and ZOS has done nothing about it.

There's your answer Folks, ZOS is not going to change the system, stop asking.