Confused about claims that "zerg" and stacked groups hurt PvP

FENGRUSH · June 2016

Jules wrote: »

The blame of course falls on ZOS as they intended to make a large scale combat game and the servers just can't handle it.

However, players know this, don't care, and zerg around anyway, knowing that it contributes to lag.

Jules created Haxus to make sure the servers broke for everyone. When that failed, she created Pride of the Pact. Thanks Jules.

PainfulFAFA · June 2016

Would love to blow up those zergs doen in sewers nowadays

I had the pleasure of rekting this organized red group in districts until they decided to switch to their healers, spam purge, and everything else zergs do. After that there was pretty muuch nothing anybody could until they left lol

If there were no AoE caps on the other hhand...everything wouldve taken care of itself...

frozywozy · June 2016

Anazasi wrote: »

You can ask yourself how many times have you with a small group of 8 or 12 taken out a group of say 16 only to have them return with 24. This example plays out every time in world pvp because of attrition. If your group isnt large enough to kill the enemy you simply need more players. Not to say this is wrong but you can see how actions that equal in failure increases the need to employ attrition. Camps are a crutch, a gap closer, for attrition. What ZOS never thoroughly explored was the "needs" aspect of world pvp in relation to attrition.

If I wipe to a larger group several times, I don't start spamming zone for more people to join my group or ask other groups to stack together. What I do is coordinate with other groups to hit two objectives at the same time with relatively small numbers to force the enemy zerg to spread out. The enemy usually send more reinforcements than needed at some place and you end up capturing one objective.

Rust_in_Peace · June 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

"Organised stacked group" is just a nice way of referring to your zerg.

PvP in ESO as it stands is a joke because everyone just stands on top of each other and spams AOE. There's zero skill involved and it's just a zergfest. You don't have to think about when to use your skills, positioning or anything like that you just follow the leader and spam 1 button while you wait for your ultimate to fill up.

That along with the lag; caused by this playstyle, is what drove away all the competitive players. The people who stuck around are kidding themselves when they talk about winning because they are "organised" or have better skill or strats. You're just a bigger zerg - don't get it twisted.

"Drove away all the competitive players"? Good. Not needed. Why should anyone care about their amazing skill?

You are also wrong that "bigger zerg" always wins. Apart from that, it doesn't matter if you lose battles if you win the war. Many times I have been in groups that were mostly trying to distract the opposing troops from other battles. So long as we used up a lot of their time and killed them a few times before they wiped us out, we did our part.

Imagine that. Following a leader in an army. Such an absurd concept.

Congrats on making the dumbest post I have seen on these forums.

"Pvp shouldn't be competitive."

Players like you are cancer.

frozywozy · June 2016

Satiar wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

I hear a lot of complaints about zerg in PvP. I also hear complaints about organized stacked groups. People talk like these people are ruining PvP and how that will kill the game.

I am confused because if those people are filling Cyrodiil, it sounds like they represent a large percentage of PvP oriented players. Apart from lag, why should developers prioritize reducing zerg and ball groups if that is how a large percentage of people want to play and if people will almost always find a way to optimize any rebalance through a stacked group?

Zerg is actually good for the game. I like it and it should always be a part of largescale ava.

What´s bad for the game IMO is the ability to organize large groups of players in eso. Zergs and large grps should not be as easily organized as they are in eso by having 24ppl all marked in the UI, the map and having a giant crown on the grplead.
Also the ability to have that many players in a grp lead to support abilities being spammed on specific templates designed to do that one job instead just using them situationally.

Secondly groupsize always have an implication on how the game is played. You see the majority of people running around in really big grps because the people not enjoying running around with 20+ players but rater 4 to 10 left the game.
Why is that - because grpsizes determines how one competes for objectives. If you enable players to put 20+ people in their grp they will do it and everyone not doing it is hardly competetive anymore. It´s hard to enjoy something where you´re either forced to play in a way you don´t enjoy to compete or be unable to compete but play in a way you like.

I don´t think large grps is how people want to play in general. It´s simply the path of least resistance which is a logical choice to make.
If people want to run really large grps it should require more of the players and leaders to organize that than it currently does in eso.

I really don't understand that part about people not wanting big groups. I literally bought this game for large group fights and battles. Why would anyone buy the only RvR on the market if they didn't like big groups?

The fact that the game was advertised as RvR large scale PvP and the fact that we bought it hoping it would work is one thing. The fact that the game cannot support it with the actual hardwares, game engine, code semantics, population caps, etc is another. Most people realized a long time ago that their dream of large group play is not possible anymore and adjusted their playstyle accordingly until Cyrodiil either can support such a playstyle or smaller instances of PvP get released.

Some people are slower than other it seems.

Mako1132 · June 2016

bitaken wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

If your group isnt large enough to kill the enemy you simply need more players.

And right there - is the basic tenant by which zergs form and zergers are made.

#norespectforzergers

It's not group size. Yes, if the enemy is running 40+ it's a challenge and certainly not something that you WANT to see. However, I will NEVER buy into the thought that the reason you lose is because you don't have enough people.

Typically, the people running 40+ suck at the game - and are not that hard to kill - you just have to be smarter than them.

This. Your group doesn't need to get bigger, it needs to get better.

manny254 wrote: »

First off this is directed at everyone, and not specifically large groups. We are all guilty of this. To especially include those such as frozn who stack with their entire faction, and see nothing wrong with it.

At the end of the day it comes down to lag. We can argue about what the game is supposed to be all day, but large scale pvp does not function properly. This can not be argued against. The game can not handle it anymore, and everyone knows it. The ultimate blame is on ZoS, but players can not pretend to be innocent. After a certain point players need to avoid participating in battles that form a black hole of lag. I can not understand complaining about lag, but running straight into the battles that are causing it. The "as Advertised" argument has worn thin, and players should know what to expect by now. By all means run into the stacked faction battle, but understand what the result is going to be.

This so much.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Fact is large scale PVP worked just fine in this game before the invention of the "Pain Train Style" also called the zergball....get rid of the abilities and skills that allow these zergballs to function and force the game in a more single target direction and these pain trains cease to exists and then the large 300 vs 300 battles we had back in the day without lag with mostly like work....as long as the pain train zergball style is allowed to exist, ESO PVP will never realize nor get back its true potential.

Fact is large scale PVP worked just fine in this game after the invention of the "Pain Train Style" also called the zergball... Those existed since the first month of the game, and with no performance loss.

DaveMoeDee · June 2016

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

"Organised stacked group" is just a nice way of referring to your zerg.

PvP in ESO as it stands is a joke because everyone just stands on top of each other and spams AOE. There's zero skill involved and it's just a zergfest. You don't have to think about when to use your skills, positioning or anything like that you just follow the leader and spam 1 button while you wait for your ultimate to fill up.

That along with the lag; caused by this playstyle, is what drove away all the competitive players. The people who stuck around are kidding themselves when they talk about winning because they are "organised" or have better skill or strats. You're just a bigger zerg - don't get it twisted.

"Drove away all the competitive players"? Good. Not needed. Why should anyone care about their amazing skill?

You are also wrong that "bigger zerg" always wins. Apart from that, it doesn't matter if you lose battles if you win the war. Many times I have been in groups that were mostly trying to distract the opposing troops from other battles. So long as we used up a lot of their time and killed them a few times before they wiped us out, we did our part.

Imagine that. Following a leader in an army. Such an absurd concept.

Congrats on making the dumbest post I have seen on these forums.

"Pvp shouldn't be competitive."

Players like you are cancer.

No, the cancer is the people who complain because the game is designed for large groups and they want to change the game design.

So, you out-dumb me by a mile.

What is incredibly brain-dead about your comment is Cyrodiil is as much about working together as it is about competition. I'll take a game that rewards skill in leading, strategy, and tactics or rotations any day.

NACtron · June 2016

Everyone is debating here about how to make zergs go away or how to nerf them yet there is plenty of players (myself included) that genuinely enjoy the playstyle. Sure sometimes the lag gets annoying but there is something really epic and fun about large scale battles that makes us keep zerging on.

Sandman929 · June 2016

I'm fine with zergs, and they can be fun. I don't appreciate ZOS making these pathetic anti-zerg devices that then become the main source of zerg damage.
Blazing Shield Templars WERE the anti-zerg...we got nerfed by Battle Spirit, and now every class just throws on VD and does far worse than BS Templars ever did.
Maybe someday they'll find a way to make tanking better in PvP and zergs will have an effective shield wall to crash against.

Jules · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

The blame of course falls on ZOS as they intended to make a large scale combat game and the servers just can't handle it.

However, players know this, don't care, and zerg around anyway, knowing that it contributes to lag.

Jules created Haxus to make sure the servers broke for everyone. When that failed, she created Pride of the Pact. Thanks Jules.

You're welcome fengypoo