Cross-Alliance Questing Needs Some Tiny Changes to Make Sense

oxxalejandroxxo · March 2016

As we all know now, after the thieves guild update, everyone who has reached Level 50 or VR1 could go on exploring and questing in regions of hostile alliances without finishing the main storyline, and we have to say this change is a great improvement on the exploring experience in ESOTU.

Unfortunately, with respect to the plot and the integrity of story-telling, this change does not make any sense and is very immersion breaking. However, we only need some very tiny changes to generally alleviate the immersion breaking and plot busting problems within the current cross-alliance questing settings.

First of all, we should not simply open the starting Wayshrines of the other two alliances for players when they reached Level 50 or VR1, which is ridiculous plotwise. Instead, we should only allow players to initially travel to the starting zones of the enemy factions through the ship docked in the port of the players' own starting zones.

Moreover, since the ships of different alliances look totally different, we should not make the first trip to the enemy territory an ordinary voyage, and simply let the plays spawn on a different ship in the destination and pretend it's the same one. Instead, a new loading screen should be added to show a picture of ships sinking in a horrible storm in one of the seas of Nirn with caption telling the fact that terrible storms do happen in the seas of Nirn and travelers are sometimes swallowed by waves, etc.

After the loading screen, players could simply spawn as characters in sleep in places where new plays spawn (for example, if travelling to AD, the cabin of the ship docked at Vulkhel Guard) just like after they got out of the wailing prison of Coldharbour at the very beginning of the game. After this change, everything will make much better sense, players are again actually rescued by sailor NPCs from the sea, and could interact with their rescuers to go to the starter islands of the other factions to start the new questing journeys.

newtinmpls · March 2016

Wow, that's a pretty cool idea.

oxxalejandroxxo · March 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

Wow, that's a pretty cool idea.

Thanks man, but I think this is something really obvious, because when you to the other alliances NPCs still ask questions like "oh you finally wake up, it's XXXXXX who recued you from the sea". With these lines kept there, the best and simplest thing to do to make the story straight is to imply players got shipwrecked during the voyage through a loading screen.

Enodoc · March 2016

Nice idea! An issue I see with that though is that it will reallocate the established timelines. Suddenly everything will be happening to the one character in succession (they left one area and subsequently got shipwrecked in another), rather than the setup which Cadwell introduces where you are put in a "what would have happened if..." alternate timeline and the events happen in parallel to your original alliance.

Just opening up the wayshrines doesn't explain this either, but to avoid breaking immersion we need to avoid breaking the already-established alternate timeline setup, as that introduction is still there when you get to it. Perhaps what is needed is a pop-up box (or in-game mail) explaining that there is a surge of Aetherial energy flowing through the newly-unlocked wayshrines and to be careful if you try to use them, as "even familiar faces may see you as a soulless drifter, lost in an unfamiliar land, if you attempt to access these wayshrine destinations". (Essentially, a message saying the same thing Cadwell says to you.)

RebornV3x · March 2016

If they just opened up the areas when you beat the main story line then we wouldn't need a new load screen or dialog

newtinmpls · March 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

there is a surge of Aetherial energy flowing through the newly-unlocked wayshrines and to be careful if you try to use them, as "even familiar faces may see you as a soulless drifter, lost in an unfamiliar land, if you attempt to access these wayshrine destinations". (Essentially, a message saying the same thing Cadwell says to you.)

I like this.

Ever considered writing fanfic?

Duiwel · March 2016

How about no?

Those zones are still VR, so non VR players will not be able to do the content thus not immersion breaking @ all since good luck trying VR Reapers March on your level 12 EP or DC character...

Also it's a choice, the player chooses to break the immersion or not, thus there is no need for this completely uncalled for change, you do realise that the game is in quite a state of decay and is undergoing serious repairs right? Why would it be logical to divert resources into changing the game for something like this?

Enodoc · March 2016

newtinmpls wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

there is a surge of Aetherial energy flowing through the newly-unlocked wayshrines and to be careful if you try to use them, as "even familiar faces may see you as a soulless drifter, lost in an unfamiliar land, if you attempt to access these wayshrine destinations". (Essentially, a message saying the same thing Cadwell says to you.)

I like this.

Ever considered writing fanfic?

Not for Elder Scrolls (although the detail I go into in some of my concept suggestions may lean into that area

), but I do have an (incomplete) fanfic set in the Fable universe

code65536 · March 2016

I don't mind the lore-breakage since the people taking this shortcut are generally working on leveling alts. At that point, I don't care about lore, story lines, etc. All I want is to level the character so that I can play end-game content with a different build. If I did care about the story and immersion, I could just choose to ignore that wayshrine.

That having been said, I don't think that just opening up the wayshrine is a good idea for someone on their very first playthrough.

If I were in charge at ZOS, this is what I'd do instead:

Revert the initial story starting point back to what it was during the beta. E.g., for DC players, this means instead of appearing in Daggerfall after escaping, you appear on the ship in Stros M'Kai. The current setup makes no sense. "Hi, we rescued you from the sea, but then shipped you halfway across our faction to this location, only to ask you to come back with us again." Also, the Prophet still has his dialog about him being separated from you, despite the fact that you two start off at pretty much the same place now. The starter islands should be, well, where you start. I hated when they made that change during the final beta iteration.
That said, people on their second playthrough probably don't want to go through the starter island again. In that case, for accounts that have had at least one completed playthrough of the starter island, enable the wayshrine to their alliance's first zone. People who want to stick with the lore and do things in the intended story order can just ignore this unlocked wayshrine, and people who think that one playthrough of the tutorial-ish starter island is enough can just opt to use that wayshrine. In any case, the important part is that the player, by default, starts on the starter island and can optionally wayshrine to the first main zone, instead of starting by default in the first main zone and optionally doing the starter island.
Similarly, accounts on their first playthrough should get into Silver and Gold the old-fashioned way: by completing the main quest. However, once a character on that account has completed the main quest, then enable that wayshrine for other characters in the account. This forces players to do their first playthrough the intended way, but lets them optionally shortcut out of the main quest if they so choose. And, again, I wouldn't be so worried about trying to make it lore-friendly, as people can choose to just not use that wayshrine, and since the wayshrine is opened only for people who have gone through things the proper way already, that choice to use the wayshrine would be an informed choice.

dodgehopper_ESO · March 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Nice idea! An issue I see with that though is that it will reallocate the established timelines. Suddenly everything will be happening to the one character in succession (they left one area and subsequently got shipwrecked in another), rather than the setup which Cadwell introduces where you are put in a "what would have happened if..." alternate timeline and the events happen in parallel to your original alliance.

Just opening up the wayshrines doesn't explain this either, but to avoid breaking immersion we need to avoid breaking the already-established alternate timeline setup, as that introduction is still there when you get to it. Perhaps what is needed is a pop-up box (or in-game mail) explaining that there is a surge of Aetherial energy flowing through the newly-unlocked wayshrines and to be careful if you try to use them, as "even familiar faces may see you as a soulless drifter, lost in an unfamiliar land, if you attempt to access these wayshrine destinations". (Essentially, a message saying the same thing Cadwell says to you.)

@Enodoc is right, our replay mode is simply Meridia 'illuminating' to us what would have happened.

oxxalejandroxxo · March 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Nice idea! An issue I see with that though is that it will reallocate the established timelines. Suddenly everything will be happening to the one character in succession (they left one area and subsequently got shipwrecked in another), rather than the setup which Cadwell introduces where you are put in a "what would have happened if..." alternate timeline and the events happen in parallel to your original alliance.

Just opening up the wayshrines doesn't explain this either, but to avoid breaking immersion we need to avoid breaking the already-established alternate timeline setup, as that introduction is still there when you get to it. Perhaps what is needed is a pop-up box (or in-game mail) explaining that there is a surge of Aetherial energy flowing through the newly-unlocked wayshrines and to be careful if you try to use them, as "even familiar faces may see you as a soulless drifter, lost in an unfamiliar land, if you attempt to access these wayshrine destinations". (Essentially, a message saying the same thing Cadwell says to you.)

@Enodoc is right, our replay mode is simply Meridia 'illuminating' to us what would have happened.

Well, being shipwrecked and saved again might be an illusion more credible no? Even the Matrix would try to fool its captive humans with illusionary universes that feel consistent.

oxxalejandroxxo · March 2016

Duiwel wrote: »

How about no?

Those zones are still VR, so non VR players will not be able to do the content thus not immersion breaking @ all since good luck trying VR Reapers March on your level 12 EP or DC character...

Also it's a choice, the player chooses to break the immersion or not, thus there is no need for this completely uncalled for change, you do realise that the game is in quite a state of decay and is undergoing serious repairs right? Why would it be logical to divert resources into changing the game for something like this?

Compared to things that need huge amount of coding effort like changes in AOE cap in PVP zones, adding a new loading screen and some captions would a tiny teeny thing for them to do.

Duiwel · March 2016

oxxalejandroxxo wrote: »

Compared to things that need huge amount of coding effort like changes in AOE cap in PVP zones, adding a new loading screen and some captions would a tiny teeny thing for them to do.

Fair enough, but remember one thing all things in life especially work related go as follow: What is important and what is not important. This feature is at the very bottom of the not important list OP. Simply because as I said the game is in quite a state of decay, as I am sure you are well aware of all the graphics bugs, not to mention the crashes ect. I need not remind anyone playing this game of the current issues we face ( PvP is x100 worse off ). I spent 80% of my night last night either in the log in screen or in a Cyrodiil loading screen so I know.

The point is while I do see your need for keeping lore a thing, like I said to those it matters, they will play the game as intended so this feature while "nice" and shiny, is not at all needed

The unlocking of the zones can be seen this way: ESO is a book that you have just purchased... While some people have read the book, others are still busy reading it. While some care for the story and read from page one, others will skip the book and read the last page ( the people who will use this "lore breaking" feature ) I used "" for the sake of the example.

Even if this took one day to code, that's one day less spent on coding the things that are actual issues.

I hope that clarifies my stand and I am sure the devs stand on this. Asking for unnecessary things when there are important things to look at should not even be considered. It's sad OP ( I myself like lore too ) but it's a reality we must face in this day and age.

Turelus · March 2016

TBH the lore/story breaks are the same as when they decided all of a sudden to change the wake up location from the islands to the cities.

Sadly ZOS don't care about story continuity, they're catering to the gamers not roleplayers. Maybe we'll see some changes made for this later (as they did several to clean up the starting island mess) but it's not going to be a priority.

oxxalejandroxxo · June 2016

Turelus wrote: »

TBH the lore/story breaks are the same as when they decided all of a sudden to change the wake up location from the islands to the cities.

Sadly ZOS don't care about story continuity, they're catering to the gamers not roleplayers. Maybe we'll see some changes made for this later (as they did several to clean up the starting island mess) but it's not going to be a priority.

I dont need ZOS to care a lot about story continuity, but I just hope them could make some minors changes which could patch some serious plot loopholes

Abeille · June 2016

I see Cadwell's Gold and Silver as a Spinner's story that you entered: In real life, you were not really there, but people still remember you.

To me, we enter the story as we touch the crystal - our physical bodies stay in the cave. In my headcanon, though, we can't "hop alliances". Our characters stay there until they finish the story, on which occasion they go back to their physical bodies inside the Harborage and go back to their alliance.

I would really like to have a character to explain it in game, even if it debunks my "Spinner's story" headcanon.

Enodoc · June 2016

Abeille wrote: »

To me, we enter the story as we touch the crystal - our physical bodies stay in the cave. In my headcanon, though, we can't "hop alliances". Our characters stay there until they finish the story, on which occasion they go back to their physical bodies inside the Harborage and go back to their alliance.

That's a good one. If there were crystals in the other two Harborages and you were able to access them too, that would potentially allow you to "hop around" as you could use them to enter and leave the story.

Abeille · June 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

Abeille wrote: »

To me, we enter the story as we touch the crystal - our physical bodies stay in the cave. In my headcanon, though, we can't "hop alliances". Our characters stay there until they finish the story, on which occasion they go back to their physical bodies inside the Harborage and go back to their alliance.

That's a good one. If there were crystals in the other two Harborages and you were able to access them too, that would potentially allow you to "hop around" as you could use them to enter and leave the story.

That's a great idea, and it shouldn't be too hard to implement. That, plus a little dialogue with Cadwell where he explains that it is like a Spinner's story (on his own terms, of course), should help making more sense out of this.

phaneub17_ESO · June 2016

Originally you had to beat Molag Bal to access the silver and gold zones on your own, Cadwell cast a spell on you to disguise your true form so that the inhabitants of the other factions saw you as their own; you're not going there as an enemy suddenly becoming their friend. You're not actually going there in the present timeline either, he sends back in time, sort of, to see what it would be like if you ended in their lands following the same progression you did in your own. It's all an illusion basically, Cadwell is just that powerful... whoever he is.

Abeille · June 2016

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Originally you had to beat Molag Bal to access the silver and gold zones on your own, Cadwell cast a spell on you to disguise your true form so that the inhabitants of the other factions saw you as their own; you're not going there as an enemy suddenly becoming their friend. You're not actually going there in the present timeline either, he sends back in time, sort of, to see what it would be like if you ended in their lands following the same progression you did in your own. It's all an illusion basically, Cadwell is just that powerful... whoever he is.

The way he puts it, it doesn't seem like he is actually sending you back in time to help your enemies and fight your own alliance (that wouldn't make much sense, and would kinda make you a filthy traitor), but merely showing you how it "could have been" if you had been rescued by them instead.

The problem with this is that then the characters that we find on DLCs and that we only met on Cadwell Gold and Silver shouldn't recognize us, and yet they do. That's why I think it is not only a mere illusion, but actually a story like the ones the Bosmeri Spinners tell.

Sengra · June 2016

Turelus wrote: »

TBH the lore/story breaks are the same as when they decided all of a sudden to change the wake up location from the islands to the cities.

Sadly ZOS don't care about story continuity, they're catering to the gamers not roleplayers. Maybe we'll see some changes made for this later (as they did several to clean up the starting island mess) but it's not going to be a priority.

I just created a new character and it seems that the DB patch changed this. My new char woke up on Khenartis Roost instead of Vulkhel Guard for the first time. It was a nice surprise, I never liked the way it was done before. Who knows, maybe they will change little things like that in the future. Unfortunately, most of the older players won't notice it.

Acrolas · June 2016

It would be convoluted and cheap to try to logically explain something now that originated as nothing more than an inexpensive way to add new subscription content. Literally just had to modify instance values and pay Cleese for a few new lines.

Now you don't even need to Cleese lines. You just need to race through Silver and Gold and grab the skill points while ignoring that people in Grahtwood know what you did in Shadowfen, Glenumbra, and Coldharbour. Don't embrace the discrepancies.
RUN FROM THEM.