In PVP NB & DK are using NPCs to scale keep walls

Tryxus · June 2016

Well Dragonknights can fly and Nightblades are sneaky little buggers

daemonios · June 2016

Frawr wrote: »

Having people being able to use multiple methods of getting into a keep adds depth and variety. It makes the game more interesting because there are more ways to do things and it makes the game more exciting. Be aware of it and avoid standing there like a numpty firing your snipe spam and wondering why you died.

Having skills such as 'Leap 28 metres through the air' and then restricting them by saying 'but only if its on a level plane and only if there is ground beneath you the whole way' is face-palm stupid.

nerfing skills like chains, leap, the Z axis etc are all fine examples of the results of incompetent players crying because someone did something that they didnt expect. That they listen to those narrow-minded players is breathtaking.

I sympathise with the "diversity" argument. Yes, it's fun to watch some players climb the wall and wreak havoc among the defenders. But there are a couple of problems with that.

Firstly, not all classes have a way to do this. I'm sorry but as long as only DKs and NBs can bypass siege, this can't be considered a valid game mechanic. I don't accept that if I play certain classes I can solo ninja a scroll out of a keep, but if I play certain other classes I can't.

Secondly, ZOS have stated that bypassing siege to get into a keep is an exploit. Sadly, they don't follow through and enforce this, but it's the only official position from the developers. As long as this is the case, they have a duty to prevent these exploits.

IMHO there are only two honest ways to resolve the issue: either ZOS enforce their own rule and fix skills that are being exploited; or they drop the rule and find a way for everyone to have access to ways of bypassing siege.

What we can't have is ZOS saying one thing, players doing a different thing, no enforcement whatsoever, and hundreds of (often quite heated) discussions about whether this is a cheat.

mtwiggz · June 2016

Actually all classes can do it now. All you need is some form of gap closer. In attempts to fix the reliability of gap closers they ultimately broke them worse. I do have to say they reliably fire now, but to nearly any terrain difference, including keep/resource/outpost walls.

daswahnsinn · June 2016

If it the method I'm thinking of then it's sort of an exploit. I remember when I was trying to figure out how people were getting into keeps with out sieging the walls down first. Never got a real answer if it was but I know how to do it and think it still may work.

ИВАН_ВОДКА · June 2016

its not a bannable exploit
if its and exploit like ZOS said

because there is 0 players banneed for using it

Burning_Talons · June 2016

I always thought DK leaping in was cool and stuff

Tryxus · June 2016

Burning_Talons wrote: »

I always thought DK leaping in was cool and stuff

Yeah, like that Uruk-Hai in the Two Towers. At least until Gimli hit his clocks with his axe

Grunim · June 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

Just l2p and don't stand too close to low wall edges like at BRK or corners of upper keeps adjacent to outer wall towers.
Be aware going thru keep doors for NBs by running detection.

And it's easy to lotus fan from ground level up to a mage guard. Players don't even need a player standing near the edge or corners to get in these days.

KramUzibra · June 2016

daemonios wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Having people being able to use multiple methods of getting into a keep adds depth and variety. It makes the game more interesting because there are more ways to do things and it makes the game more exciting. Be aware of it and avoid standing there like a numpty firing your snipe spam and wondering why you died.

Having skills such as 'Leap 28 metres through the air' and then restricting them by saying 'but only if its on a level plane and only if there is ground beneath you the whole way' is face-palm stupid.

nerfing skills like chains, leap, the Z axis etc are all fine examples of the results of incompetent players crying because someone did something that they didnt expect. That they listen to those narrow-minded players is breathtaking.

I sympathise with the "diversity" argument. Yes, it's fun to watch some players climb the wall and wreak havoc among the defenders. But there are a couple of problems with that.

Firstly, not all classes have a way to do this. I'm sorry but as long as only DKs and NBs can bypass siege, this can't be considered a valid game mechanic. I don't accept that if I play certain classes I can solo ninja a scroll out of a keep, but if I play certain other classes I can't.

Secondly, ZOS have stated that bypassing siege to get into a keep is an exploit. Sadly, they don't follow through and enforce this, but it's the only official position from the developers. As long as this is the case, they have a duty to prevent these exploits.

IMHO there are only two honest ways to resolve the issue: either ZOS enforce their own rule and fix skills that are being exploited; or they drop the rule and find a way for everyone to have access to ways of bypassing siege.

What we can't have is ZOS saying one thing, players doing a different thing, no enforcement whatsoever, and hundreds of (often quite heated) discussions about whether this is a cheat.

A simple solution would be to utilize the siege ladders I had to burn in one of the quest at davon's watch!! Make it only allow maybe 3 to 6 people and it an enemy player pushes the ladder off like in the medieval movies they take massive fall damage.

Junkogen · June 2016

I think it should be allowed. I think it adds a fun dynamic to siege combat. I'm sick of hearing nerf this and nerf that. You guys are really trying your darnedest to make a bland game where every class is essentially the same and everything is totally predictable. All kinds of builds with character have gotten nerfed into extinction because God forbid something cool happens. I've seen Stam DKs do it to me and never cared at all. I think it's cool. Just like I don't begrudge a Templar melting my face with radiant oppression or getting hit with wrecking blow after wrecking blow or getting ganked by snipers. It's all part of the fun and it's only when they keep nerfing all this stuff when the game gets more and more boring. It adds a little spice to the battle when a DK leaps over. Players die a lot in Cyrodiil. That's just how it goes. Leave your egos at the gates and try to survive the lag.

KramUzibra · June 2016

Junkogen wrote: »

I think it should be allowed. I think it adds a fun dynamic to siege combat. I'm sick of hearing nerf this and nerf that. You guys are really trying your darnedest to make a bland game where every class is essentially the same and everything is totally predictable. All kinds of builds with character have gotten nerfed into extinction because God forbid something cool happens. I've seen Stam DKs do it to me and never cared at all. I think it's cool. Just like I don't begrudge a Templar melting my face with radiant oppression or getting hit with wrecking blow after wrecking blow or getting ganked by snipers. It's all part of the fun and it's only when they keep nerfing all this stuff when the game gets more and more boring. It adds a little spice to the battle when a DK leaps over. Players die a lot in Cyrodiil. That's just how it goes. Leave your egos at the gates and try to survive the lag.

Thank u! i agree!

Junkogen · June 2016

daemonios wrote: »

Frawr wrote: »

Having people being able to use multiple methods of getting into a keep adds depth and variety. It makes the game more interesting because there are more ways to do things and it makes the game more exciting. Be aware of it and avoid standing there like a numpty firing your snipe spam and wondering why you died.

Having skills such as 'Leap 28 metres through the air' and then restricting them by saying 'but only if its on a level plane and only if there is ground beneath you the whole way' is face-palm stupid.

nerfing skills like chains, leap, the Z axis etc are all fine examples of the results of incompetent players crying because someone did something that they didnt expect. That they listen to those narrow-minded players is breathtaking.

I sympathise with the "diversity" argument. Yes, it's fun to watch some players climb the wall and wreak havoc among the defenders. But there are a couple of problems with that.

Firstly, not all classes have a way to do this. I'm sorry but as long as only DKs and NBs can bypass siege, this can't be considered a valid game mechanic. I don't accept that if I play certain classes I can solo ninja a scroll out of a keep, but if I play certain other classes I can't.

Secondly, ZOS have stated that bypassing siege to get into a keep is an exploit. Sadly, they don't follow through and enforce this, but it's the only official position from the developers. As long as this is the case, they have a duty to prevent these exploits.

IMHO there are only two honest ways to resolve the issue: either ZOS enforce their own rule and fix skills that are being exploited; or they drop the rule and find a way for everyone to have access to ways of bypassing siege.

What we can't have is ZOS saying one thing, players doing a different thing, no enforcement whatsoever, and hundreds of (often quite heated) discussions about whether this is a cheat.

Every class should not have access to this just like every class shouldn't have cloak or streak or reflective scales or radiant oppression. I loathe the ceaseless attempts to homogenize the classes.

Anyway, have you tried silver leash? There you go. There's something for everyone.

MaxwellC · June 2016

Let's not have my Take flight 'fixed' again I'd hate for it to be even more unreliable than it already is on console atm.

Nifty2g · June 2016

daemonios wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

I don't think DKs can do that, or can they?
I've seen many NBs from all factions doing it on EU servers.

It's an exploit that defeats the purpose of a key aspect of the game (sieging).

How could ZOS let that happen after a major patch - beats me.

Wouldn't call it an exploit if it's affecting something the player can barely control. I'd blame buggy code performance for this. All gap closers are bugged at the moment you float through the air with them.

You would say that, wouldn't you, Mr. "used the mundus stone exploit to keep a level playing field"? It would be trivial for ZOS to check if players are repeatedly using bugged gap closers to get on top of walls. There's a difference between a one-time accidental use and players using it as a gameplay mechanic.

I'm sorry what? Are you sayings its okay to "cheat" once as long as you say sorry it was a mistake - that makes no sense
What about those new players who come to the game and are doing this and have no idea it is an "exploit" or if its just actually a bug.

You need to change what you think cheating is and what is a bug. You're out of your mind if you think ZOS are going to issue out bans because of a bug. This is 100% their fault.

Bugs are company based that affect everyone in an uncontrolled way, intentional or not.
Exploits are used to gain an advantage against someone, by exploiting a game mechanic - this doesn't always mean cheating.
Hacking is used to change data in the game.

Zyle · June 2016

This issue was reported multiple times on PTS. It is because of how they reworked gap closers to work like Teleport Strike/Ambush/Lotus Fan does. ZOS went live with it, this is what you're seeing. The day they get gap closers to reliably work across the board will probably be the day we get a lag free Cyrodiil

Koopa · June 2016

Just silver leash your way up there.

daemonios · June 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

I don't think DKs can do that, or can they?
I've seen many NBs from all factions doing it on EU servers.

It's an exploit that defeats the purpose of a key aspect of the game (sieging).

How could ZOS let that happen after a major patch - beats me.

Wouldn't call it an exploit if it's affecting something the player can barely control. I'd blame buggy code performance for this. All gap closers are bugged at the moment you float through the air with them.

You would say that, wouldn't you, Mr. "used the mundus stone exploit to keep a level playing field"? It would be trivial for ZOS to check if players are repeatedly using bugged gap closers to get on top of walls. There's a difference between a one-time accidental use and players using it as a gameplay mechanic.

I'm sorry what? Are you sayings its okay to "cheat" once as long as you say sorry it was a mistake - that makes no sense

I said nothing of the sort, I was merely acknowledging that there are grey areas and it would make no sense to ban someone on first offence because it could have been an actual mistake.

Nifty2g wrote: »

What about those new players who come to the game and are doing this and have no idea it is an "exploit" or if its just actually a bug.

I'm not inventing the wheel here. Lots of game developers regularly disclose known bugs and announce that exploiting them will have consequences. ZOS on the other hand adopts a "sweep it under the rug" strategy to dealing with these things.

Nifty2g wrote: »

You need to change what you think cheating is and what is a bug. You're out of your mind if you think ZOS are going to issue out bans because of a bug. This is 100% their fault.

Bugs are company based that affect everyone in an uncontrolled way, intentional or not.
Exploits are used to gain an advantage against someone, by exploiting a game mechanic - this doesn't always mean cheating.
Hacking is used to change data in the game.

Rationalisation doesn't make you right. Abusing bugs for an advantage is cheating, just as much as altering the game data. Software will always have bugs, it doesn't make it OK to abuse them. But it's up to ZOS to enforce some sort of strategy in this regard and as I said above right now they prefer to sweep things under the rug.

Nifty2g · June 2016

daemonios wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

I don't think DKs can do that, or can they?
I've seen many NBs from all factions doing it on EU servers.

It's an exploit that defeats the purpose of a key aspect of the game (sieging).

How could ZOS let that happen after a major patch - beats me.

Wouldn't call it an exploit if it's affecting something the player can barely control. I'd blame buggy code performance for this. All gap closers are bugged at the moment you float through the air with them.

You would say that, wouldn't you, Mr. "used the mundus stone exploit to keep a level playing field"? It would be trivial for ZOS to check if players are repeatedly using bugged gap closers to get on top of walls. There's a difference between a one-time accidental use and players using it as a gameplay mechanic.

I'm sorry what? Are you sayings its okay to "cheat" once as long as you say sorry it was a mistake - that makes no sense

I said nothing of the sort, I was merely acknowledging that there are grey areas and it would make no sense to ban someone on first offence because it could have been an actual mistake.

Nifty2g wrote: »

What about those new players who come to the game and are doing this and have no idea it is an "exploit" or if its just actually a bug.

I'm not inventing the wheel here. Lots of game developers regularly disclose known bugs and announce that exploiting them will have consequences. ZOS on the other hand adopts a "sweep it under the rug" strategy to dealing with these things.

Nifty2g wrote: »

You need to change what you think cheating is and what is a bug. You're out of your mind if you think ZOS are going to issue out bans because of a bug. This is 100% their fault.

Bugs are company based that affect everyone in an uncontrolled way, intentional or not.
Exploits are used to gain an advantage against someone, by exploiting a game mechanic - this doesn't always mean cheating.
Hacking is used to change data in the game.

Rationalisation doesn't make you right. Abusing bugs for an advantage is cheating, just as much as altering the game data. Software will always have bugs, it doesn't make it OK to abuse them. But it's up to ZOS to enforce some sort of strategy in this regard and as I said above right now they prefer to sweep things under the rug.

I highly doubt any action will be taken

You said it when you said this

There's a difference between a one-time accidental use and players using it as a gameplay mechanic.

How is there a difference, cheating is cheating in your eyes, what about all those new players that came this update and are doing it with no idea what so ever that it is a bug and unintended, what happens to those people?

There is no way a game bug like this is going to resort to anything, it is ZOS's fault, they wont ban for their mistakes in game like this

maboleth · June 2016

What's the problem with this? This adds loads of fun, and something that isn't linear. You cannot take the keep/outpost like this, even if you kill all npcs. All keeps need a breach to be taken.

Today as a NB I've noticed a camp on the resource keep. I jumped on the player that was fighting there, used all stealth I could get and burned the camp on the roof and returned back. I barely stayed alive, with all magicka depleted and 20% health, but it was a great feeling. Finally something non-linear, saboteur-like playing.

So big NO from me - leave this little extra in game.

velocidad · June 2016

So for all the people that says this should remains, I'm going to ask a question.

Imagine you are carring the Scroll, enter the outer walls of a keep, and you think are safe. Now some super night blade that before you arrive enter the outer walls of the keep and kill you, get the scroll and run out.

Is this fair? simply answer, NO.

Thornen · June 2016

Working as intended...and also Zos take the weekend off now because they care so much.

Silver_Strider · June 2016

I've done it before on my DK and NB but I usually just get swarmed by the 50+ enemies inside the keep and die almost instantly, with maybe a few kills for my efforts but I've never seen someone teleport into a keep and take the scroll before. Usually, they were already inside the keep at the time (either by being there when the keep was flipped or having sneaked in during a failed siege) and just hid until it was clear to take the scroll.

Reapor · June 2016

When some one jumps up just dizzying swing them back off =D

IcyDeadPeople · June 2016

It's an exploit that makes every keep much harder to defend, easier to cap.

And if we haven't already, pretty soon we will see people using alts to boost their friends up inside keeps, which was the reason DK chains was nerfed to not allow targeting people in a higher location.

maboleth · June 2016

velocidad wrote: »

So for all the people that says this should remains, I'm going to ask a question.

Imagine you are carring the Scroll, enter the outer walls of a keep, and you think are safe. Now some super night blade that before you arrive enter the outer walls of the keep and kill you, get the scroll and run out.

Is this fair? simply answer, NO.

That brave ninja needs all stealth & health s/he could get to survive all npcs and players supporting the scroll. Even if s/he gets out of the keep, chances are very slim s/he will stay alive with the scroll, with all eyes on him/her. S/he would have to be fully coordinated with lots of other players to successfully steal the scroll that way.

And that would be something truly fun and exciting!

Are infinite zergs fun and fair? Is nightcapping fun and fair? Both are fully legit by the ZOS standards, but are incredibly frustrating, lame and boring stuff that happens in Cyrodiil all the time. The ninja playing style at least requires balls and a skill. Zergs & nightcappers do not.

Teridaxus · June 2016

If they can't fix it, jesus beam and crystal should melt/break walls then.

Zaldan · June 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

I don't think DKs can do that, or can they?
I've seen many NBs from all factions doing it on EU servers.

It's an exploit that defeats the purpose of a key aspect of the game (sieging).

How could ZOS let that happen after a major patch - beats me.

Wouldn't call it an exploit if it's affecting something the player can barely control. I'd blame buggy code performance for this. All gap closers are bugged at the moment you float through the air with them.

already been called an exploit when it was on PTS by ZO$
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/268106/incoming-supernatural-gapclosers/p1

DUTCH_REAPER · June 2016

It's an exploit. Don't do it.

KramUzibra · June 2016

daemonios wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

I don't think DKs can do that, or can they?
I've seen many NBs from all factions doing it on EU servers.

It's an exploit that defeats the purpose of a key aspect of the game (sieging).

How could ZOS let that happen after a major patch - beats me.

Wouldn't call it an exploit if it's affecting something the player can barely control. I'd blame buggy code performance for this. All gap closers are bugged at the moment you float through the air with them.

You would say that, wouldn't you, Mr. "used the mundus stone exploit to keep a level playing field"? It would be trivial for ZOS to check if players are repeatedly using bugged gap closers to get on top of walls. There's a difference between a one-time accidental use and players using it as a gameplay mechanic.

I'm sorry what? Are you sayings its okay to "cheat" once as long as you say sorry it was a mistake - that makes no sense

I said nothing of the sort, I was merely acknowledging that there are grey areas and it would make no sense to ban someone on first offence because it could have been an actual mistake.

Nifty2g wrote: »

What about those new players who come to the game and are doing this and have no idea it is an "exploit" or if its just actually a bug.

I'm not inventing the wheel here. Lots of game developers regularly disclose known bugs and announce that exploiting them will have consequences. ZOS on the other hand adopts a "sweep it under the rug" strategy to dealing with these things.

Nifty2g wrote: »

You need to change what you think cheating is and what is a bug. You're out of your mind if you think ZOS are going to issue out bans because of a bug. This is 100% their fault.

Bugs are company based that affect everyone in an uncontrolled way, intentional or not.
Exploits are used to gain an advantage against someone, by exploiting a game mechanic - this doesn't always mean cheating.
Hacking is used to change data in the game.

Rationalisation doesn't make you right. Abusing bugs for an advantage is cheating, just as much as altering the game data. Software will always have bugs, it doesn't make it OK to abuse them. But it's up to ZOS to enforce some sort of strategy in this regard and as I said above right now they prefer to sweep things under the rug.

Quite the contrary. Players that hack and change the code of the game for personal gain is more in line to what your saying. Not cheating. The players that take advantage of a broken mechanic because zos did not fully cover their tracks is more like a loophole, loopholes are an exception that allows a system to be circumvented or avoided, failures of a system to account for all conditions, variables, or exceptions. It is zos responsibility to make sure the game is operating correctly and fix it if not. Kinda like animation cancelling, not an intended mechanic yet certain players took advantage of this and it's now accepted as part of the game. A happy little accident if you will

Nifty2g · June 2016

Zaldan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

arth-grogalith wrote: »

I don't think DKs can do that, or can they?
I've seen many NBs from all factions doing it on EU servers.

It's an exploit that defeats the purpose of a key aspect of the game (sieging).

How could ZOS let that happen after a major patch - beats me.

Wouldn't call it an exploit if it's affecting something the player can barely control. I'd blame buggy code performance for this. All gap closers are bugged at the moment you float through the air with them.

already been called an exploit when it was on PTS by ZO$
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/268106/incoming-supernatural-gapclosers/p1

Idk, to me it sounds like a copy and paste response
It was called both a bug and an exploit - which it is, and remember, exploiting doesn't always necessarily mean cheating if you knew the definition of it.

Anyway, I'm not defending it I am just saying it's highly doubtful any action will be taken but that is because personally I don't see this as something that is the players fault. I do see it as a bug more than anything, which it is.