Good job making sorcs completely useless in PvE

Ch4mpTW · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

If sorcs are so useless in pve, then please show me a higher burst damage on dk, nb, templar.

Using a Sorcerer's Ultimate (any of them) as a comparison for Burst Damage against what other classes use from their non-Ultimate skill sets is disingenuous as an argument. as well as highly misrepresentative of the current (soul crushing) nerfs to the Sorcerer class.

Word. I've been analyzing that screen shot in attempt to try and understand the point that they're attempting to make.

Flaminir · June 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

If sorcs are so useless in pve, then please show me a higher burst damage on dk, nb, templar.

Using a Sorcerer's Ultimate (any of them) as a comparison for Burst Damage against what other classes use from their non-Ultimate skill sets is disingenuous as an argument. as well as highly misrepresentative of the current (soul crushing) nerfs to the Sorcerer class.

Word. I've been analyzing that screen shot in attempt to try and understand the point that they're attempting to make.

No point..... its another post by somebody who doesn't play the class so is fairly meaningless in terms of the overall discussion tbh... so while I'd love to say just ignore it, sadly that just leads to everybody thinking things are fine & more misinformation out there.

Too many myths out there that need busting when it comes to Sorcs...

Minute_Waltz · June 2016

@Grao lol care to explain why you are bringing up pvp stuff in a thread about sorc and pve?
@Uriel_Nocturne ok, so you wanna explain how are sorcs nerfed? when ward and surge doesnt even impact a single bit of endgame pve? tell me how many endgame sorcs have these skills in their bar please?

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

@Grao lol care to explain why you are bringing up pvp stuff in a thread about sorc and pve?
@Uriel_Nocturne ok, so you wanna explain how are sorcs nerfed? when ward and surge doesnt even impact a single bit of endgame pve? tell me how many endgame sorcs have these skills in their bar please?

I doubt you'd be capable of understanding it (or even willing to actually listen) if I did explain it.

Especially after posting such a blatantly misinformative screen cap as the core of your argument.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · June 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

If sorcs are so useless in pve, then please show me a higher burst damage on dk, nb, templar.

sorc are not useless in pve, but saying that if i use my ult on my dk on a group of mobs i can hit 100k_150k damage within 3-4 secs, you measure damage not using alt and your rotation and animation cancling will help with increasing brust damage

Anti_Virus · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I have been working on leveling a Sorc for the past few weeks, just to 50 for the DB on console. I have been following the Sorc posts since DB PTS, and have been expecting the outrage over shortened shield stack times, Crit surge caps and cool downs, and few other things I haven't even unlocked yet.
It seems a bit wreck less to me to call a class not viable, unplayable or useless. I'm still trying to learn this thing, and have been doing dungeons daily, to completion. It's a lot of fun and I think the Sorc has plenty of utility from class abilities and skills.

On console, our best DPS test is blood spawn. Based on that, not so many people here are above 15k DPS, so to get 30k you are quite the powerhouse. 50k is unreal.
Can't even entertain one button warrior comments. Be real, everyone does it at some point.

It is not that the class is not viable, as we said, sorcerer can complete content... The problem is that sorcerers are outshone by every other class in every aspect of the game. Competitively, playing a sorcerer is pointless and the class isn't even fun to play when you get to the end game since at least 50% of our abilities are not useful in end game PvE.
Encase is useless

Rune Prison is useless

Dark Exchange, useless.

Mines, yup, you guessed... Useless.

Storm Atronach, useless... It can't even move...

Unstable Familiar, a toggle... Useless. - Doesn't even scale with CPs.

Winged Twilight, yup... Another toggle and yet one more ability that doesn't scale with CPs.

Bound Armor? Well, nightblades have this as a passive, sorcerers have it as a toggle... lol.

Conjured Ward... More like Nerfed Ward.

Mage's Fury - Well, at least this ability seems to be working now... Sort of... Still the weakest execution in the game, but eh.

Surge... Nerfed into Oblivion, R.I.P. May 2016, but good for Crit based sorcerer tanking, according to @Wrobel -.-

Bolt Escape - The only skill in the game that punishes you for spamming it.

1.) True

2.) Wrong here, its a great stun that keeps mobs out of combat, players get startled when they attack you and get stuned.

3.) True, to a degree although it was buffed considerably

4.) In PVE, but its the BEST defense besides shields in PVP against every non sorcs

5.) Nope, its pretty good It adds extra dps place it near a boss and it will zap away. In pvp it scares people away from you. Plus its cool man c'mon droping a storm atro and stunning everyone is just plain badass.

6.) True.

7.) Yes its a toggle but it's and extra ally plus is has a heal compareable to BOL sorcs can't have an exact heal like BOL so the toggle Balance is out for the sake of homogeneity.

8.) True Lol

9.) Nope its still good but now it's an active defense instead of a passive one just like roll dodge and block, use it properly and you will do fine. It sucked when dodge roll/block was nerfed but it was needed since it was ridiculous you knew ward nerfs were comming because they were as broken as perma rolling/blocking

10.) True

11.) Rip Surge 2016, agree there

12.) Shouldn't have never nerfed this skill and yet gap closers get buffed which is ridiculous, agree here.

Grao · June 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

@Grao lol care to explain why you are bringing up pvp stuff in a thread about sorc and pve?
@Uriel_Nocturne ok, so you wanna explain how are sorcs nerfed? when ward and surge doesnt even impact a single bit of endgame pve? tell me how many endgame sorcs have these skills in their bar please?

I mentioned PvP because the guy you are arguing with was talking about PvP, thus for him DPS was indeed nerfed, thus your argument was flawed... Again.

And you keep ignoring VMA as end game PvE...

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Gallifreyy wrote: »

Im just going to say L2P. If this affects you in PvE you really are bad and just need to learn to get good. In PvP its a bit rougher on magic but still completely manageable.

This +1 , you shouldn't really be running ward and surge in pve anyway, and pets actually got buffed (in terms of survival) which means even better dps in pve/boss fights.

Um... What? I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have no clue what you're talking about at this point. To say that a Sorcerer shouldn't be running wards and or surge in PVE...? Excuse me? And pets having better survival, thus equating to overall higher DPS in boss fights? What are you talking about? That has to be the most ignorant post I've read about the Sorcerer class.

First of all, without surge and it's morphs and wards? The class has no solid forms of defense, outside of Bolt Escape and it's morphs. And even then, the cost is increased in each use. So are you implying Sorcerers should spam blink to get out of tough spots, and hope restoration staff skills (outside of Healing Ward and morphs) are supposed to hold you down and get the job done? What are you actually talking about? Have you even played a Sorcerer? For either magicka or stamina? Are you trolling?

Second of all, a pets boost in survival has little to nothing to do with overall increased DPS to a boss. Would you like to know why? Because a critical point behind pet builds is the use of shields. They enable you to play defensively, while having an offensive pivot with weaved destruction staff attacks between Force Pulse/Crush Shock spam. M'kay? That's how that works in regards to pet builds. With Overload's use as a 3rd bar providing a utility skill (e.g. Ball of Lightning) and misc. skill of the summoner's choice.

So please, please stop talking about a class that you appear to not understand too well. And either: Play the class, read-up on the class, or watch videos of the class. Alright?

I wont comment on the pet part, because I never run pets, but that statement was true for the most part. Surge and Ward arent needed anywhere in PVE save VMA, and maybe lost boss of Maw where most magic users slot ward for the meteor phase. I understand that some people like to sacrifice DPS to run a shield in PVE on their sorcs, but I have yet to find a situation where I needed a shield to last more than about 3 seconds. As for surge, it gives two things, heals and spell power boost. In any good group, you get heals from a healer and spell power from potions.

From a PVE side of things, I think these changes have Zero effect on the extreme end of things, Competitive raids, etc. I think this might slow VMA times on average down a bit, because people will probably need to cast their shields a little more often. For casuals/pugs, no denying this makes sorcs a little less easy mode, but no other class needs a 20 second shield to DPS. Only thing I think this really hurts are the groups that were 4 sorc DPS/shieldspamming everything (Dont Care), and people like Thelon that like to solo ridiculous things. My guess is that those people will adapt just fine.

Minute_Waltz · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

@Grao lol care to explain why you are bringing up pvp stuff in a thread about sorc and pve?
@Uriel_Nocturne ok, so you wanna explain how are sorcs nerfed? when ward and surge doesnt even impact a single bit of endgame pve? tell me how many endgame sorcs have these skills in their bar please?

I mentioned PvP because the guy you are arguing with was talking about PvP, thus for him DPS was indeed nerfed, thus your argument was flawed... Again.

And you keep ignoring VMA as end game PvE...

How about you go back to page 8 and read my comment on VMA? Ill repeat here again, personally i think its still the easiest class to do VMA for first timers. Reason is you can stack 1000 ulti and go overload to burst through any stage any round. (Obviously you still need to learn the mechanics, and it won't work on stage 9 boss)

For other classes you just gotta try the same thing over until you get through it, which can be frustrating.

Grao · June 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I have been working on leveling a Sorc for the past few weeks, just to 50 for the DB on console. I have been following the Sorc posts since DB PTS, and have been expecting the outrage over shortened shield stack times, Crit surge caps and cool downs, and few other things I haven't even unlocked yet.
It seems a bit wreck less to me to call a class not viable, unplayable or useless. I'm still trying to learn this thing, and have been doing dungeons daily, to completion. It's a lot of fun and I think the Sorc has plenty of utility from class abilities and skills.

On console, our best DPS test is blood spawn. Based on that, not so many people here are above 15k DPS, so to get 30k you are quite the powerhouse. 50k is unreal.
Can't even entertain one button warrior comments. Be real, everyone does it at some point.

It is not that the class is not viable, as we said, sorcerer can complete content... The problem is that sorcerers are outshone by every other class in every aspect of the game. Competitively, playing a sorcerer is pointless and the class isn't even fun to play when you get to the end game since at least 50% of our abilities are not useful in end game PvE.
Encase is useless

Rune Prison is useless

Dark Exchange, useless.

Mines, yup, you guessed... Useless.

Storm Atronach, useless... It can't even move...

Unstable Familiar, a toggle... Useless. - Doesn't even scale with CPs.

Winged Twilight, yup... Another toggle and yet one more ability that doesn't scale with CPs.

Bound Armor? Well, nightblades have this as a passive, sorcerers have it as a toggle... lol.

Conjured Ward... More like Nerfed Ward.

Mage's Fury - Well, at least this ability seems to be working now... Sort of... Still the weakest execution in the game, but eh.

Surge... Nerfed into Oblivion, R.I.P. May 2016, but good for Crit based sorcerer tanking, according to @Wrobel -.-

Bolt Escape - The only skill in the game that punishes you for spamming it.

1.) True

2.) Wrong here, its a great stun that keeps mobs out of combat, players get startled when they attack you and get stuned.

3.) True, to a degree although it was buffed considerably

4.) In PVE, but its the BEST defense besides shields in PVP against every non sorcs

5.) Nope, its pretty good It adds extra dps place it near a boss and it will zap away. In pvp it scares people away from you. Plus its cool man c'mon droping a storm atro and stunning everyone is just plain badass.

6.) True.

7.) Yes its a toggle but it's and extra ally plus is has a heal compareable to BOL sorcs can't have an exact heal like BOL so the toggle Balance is out for the sake of homogeneity.

8.) True Lol

9.) Nope its still good but now it's an active defense instead of a passive one just like roll dodge and block, use it properly and you will do fine. It sucked when dodge roll/block was nerfed but it was needed since it was ridiculous you knew ward nerfs were comming because they were as broken as perma rolling/blocking

10.) True

11.) Rip Surge 2016, agree there

12.) Shouldn't have never nerfed this skill and yet gap closers get buffed which is ridiculous, agree here.

2) Rune Prison - Useless, we are discussing end game PvE, nothing that is worthwhile stunning in end game PvE can actually be trapped by Rune Prison.

3) I am sorry, I don't feel 'awesome' when I use that spell, using @Wrobel 's words.

4) True, Mines are very good in PvP.

5) I am sorry, the fact this ability looks awesome and yet it is so damn lackluster only makes it more frustrating. Its general damage is not enough to justify its use and the buff it provides, Major Berserk, should be given both to the person who activates the Synergy and to the summoner of the ability. Also, the AoE version of it should be a Wind Atronach that causes physical damage by spinning.

7) The healer pet is good for its utility, true, but its DPS is lackluster as it is not affected by CPs, which makes no sense at all. Worse, the DPS morph which should be great sucks even more for even its active ability isn't affected by your CP distribution.

9) I didn't say this particular skill is useless but that it was so heavily nerfed without giving it any additional benefit is stupid. All I want it to do in addition is heal pets it affects, I don't think it is asking too much.

And those are just problems we have with Skills, I didn't even list the number of ridiculous passives we have and how some of our passives don't affect our spells as they should. Nor did I mentioned our lack of a spammable ability, which is... Baffling. We are sorcerers but we don't have an instant cast magic DD ability...

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

My main was a sorc, and this patch broke my heart. I was a sorc since beta, through buffs and nerfs. This? What they did with Dark Brotherhood made me straight up strip the gear from her, put it in the bank, and let anyone else take it. I'm normally of the philosophy of roll with the buffs and the nerfs, been that way since I started playing MMOs, but this patch is officially the one that pushed me too far to stick to that mentality.

R.I.P. Para Nostram
VR16 Bosmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
She was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood

Update your signature and join the clan @ParaNostram , I also mained a sorcerer since beta, many of us have. We feel your pain...

Guys, something about this quitting attitude rubs me wrong. Here I find myself wanting to make a Redguard Stamina Sorcerer too, and occasionally go out there and pvp with my Orc Stam Sorcerer, and for sure my formerly v16 Altmer Sorcerer. Sorcerer is just going through a rough patch. If I could deal with a lot of the bs on my Templar for so long, surely you can hang in there with your Sorcerer. Have fun with it, do missions and story. If you don't feel it performs as well in pvp or trials or the like, don't play it there. Lets see some more can-do attitude though. IF anything you can slot all non-class skills if it makes you feel better (though you might want to at least slot a couple in class skills). Will it be the best build ever? No, but you can run it in Hew's bane or Gold Coast just fine. Honestly, the end isn't here.

The difference is, your Templar, no matter how bad its DPS was for a while, it was always the best healer in the game. Meanwhile sorcerers are exactly the best at what right now?

My original Templar was up until the changes to block regeneration always a committed tank build, even in pvp. In pvp the character was more aggressively focused, always, but eventually just became Stamplar. The point I'm trying make to you is to not give up on a character just because things get harder or have been getting harder. I'm in agreement with a lot of the concerns people have about Sorcerer so I'm not being hostile toward you, I'm just suggesting you keep a stiff upper lip and hang in there, and keep focus on what needs fixing. There is a surprisingly large amount of agreement or at least general consensus it seems on what would help the class. Changing the whole toggle-issue is probably #1 on almost everyone's list. Some skills just need to be more interesting.

Grao · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Gallifreyy wrote: »

Im just going to say L2P. If this affects you in PvE you really are bad and just need to learn to get good. In PvP its a bit rougher on magic but still completely manageable.

This +1 , you shouldn't really be running ward and surge in pve anyway, and pets actually got buffed (in terms of survival) which means even better dps in pve/boss fights.

Um... What? I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have no clue what you're talking about at this point. To say that a Sorcerer shouldn't be running wards and or surge in PVE...? Excuse me? And pets having better survival, thus equating to overall higher DPS in boss fights? What are you talking about? That has to be the most ignorant post I've read about the Sorcerer class.

First of all, without surge and it's morphs and wards? The class has no solid forms of defense, outside of Bolt Escape and it's morphs. And even then, the cost is increased in each use. So are you implying Sorcerers should spam blink to get out of tough spots, and hope restoration staff skills (outside of Healing Ward and morphs) are supposed to hold you down and get the job done? What are you actually talking about? Have you even played a Sorcerer? For either magicka or stamina? Are you trolling?

Second of all, a pets boost in survival has little to nothing to do with overall increased DPS to a boss. Would you like to know why? Because a critical point behind pet builds is the use of shields. They enable you to play defensively, while having an offensive pivot with weaved destruction staff attacks between Force Pulse/Crush Shock spam. M'kay? That's how that works in regards to pet builds. With Overload's use as a 3rd bar providing a utility skill (e.g. Ball of Lightning) and misc. skill of the summoner's choice.

So please, please stop talking about a class that you appear to not understand too well. And either: Play the class, read-up on the class, or watch videos of the class. Alright?

I wont comment on the pet part, because I never run pets, but that statement was true for the most part. Surge and Ward arent needed anywhere in PVE save VMA, and maybe lost boss of Maw where most magic users slot ward for the meteor phase. I understand that some people like to sacrifice DPS to run a shield in PVE on their sorcs, but I have yet to find a situation where I needed a shield to last more than about 3 seconds. As for surge, it gives two things, heals and spell power boost. In any good group, you get heals from a healer and spell power from potions.

From a PVE side of things, I think these changes have Zero effect on the extreme end of things, Competitive raids, etc. I think this might slow VMA times on average down a bit, because people will probably need to cast their shields a little more often. For casuals/pugs, no denying this makes sorcs a little less easy mode, but no other class needs a 20 second shield to DPS. Only thing I think this really hurts are the groups that were 4 sorc DPS/shieldspamming everything (Dont Care), and people like Thelon that like to solo ridiculous things. My guess is that those people will adapt just fine.

You are not wrong, the nerfs to Surge and Ward will only heavily affect Sorcerers in PvP and Vma, those are not skills we use for Raiding. Doesn't change the fact such heavy nerfs to Sorcerer's strongest points warranted buffs and changes where the class was lacking. We still don't have a spammable ability, which makes sorcerer build extremely rigid, we are still plagued by toggles, I mean, we have one of the Nightblades passives as a toggle, for heaven's sake. And the damned thing doesn't even have an active component...! Seriously... There are serious issues with this class that need fixing, but instead of visiting those, all we had from the DB patch were nerfs... That and small improvements to Stamina DPS which... Guess what? Still left Stamina sorcerer as one of the weakest stamina DPS... Well, at least we now may be able to beat stamina nightblades in DPS... Maybe. Of course when Nightblades go magicka they annihilate our DPS, but oh well.

At the end of the day, yes, sorcerer can complete content, they will struggle a lot more with VMA, but they can complete it. But they are not competitive when compared to other classes. Sorcerers are outshone by the other classes in every aspect of this game and that is wrong... It is just wrong.

Anti_Virus · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

I have been working on leveling a Sorc for the past few weeks, just to 50 for the DB on console. I have been following the Sorc posts since DB PTS, and have been expecting the outrage over shortened shield stack times, Crit surge caps and cool downs, and few other things I haven't even unlocked yet.
It seems a bit wreck less to me to call a class not viable, unplayable or useless. I'm still trying to learn this thing, and have been doing dungeons daily, to completion. It's a lot of fun and I think the Sorc has plenty of utility from class abilities and skills.

On console, our best DPS test is blood spawn. Based on that, not so many people here are above 15k DPS, so to get 30k you are quite the powerhouse. 50k is unreal.
Can't even entertain one button warrior comments. Be real, everyone does it at some point.

It is not that the class is not viable, as we said, sorcerer can complete content... The problem is that sorcerers are outshone by every other class in every aspect of the game. Competitively, playing a sorcerer is pointless and the class isn't even fun to play when you get to the end game since at least 50% of our abilities are not useful in end game PvE.
Encase is useless

Rune Prison is useless

Dark Exchange, useless.

Mines, yup, you guessed... Useless.

Storm Atronach, useless... It can't even move...

Unstable Familiar, a toggle... Useless. - Doesn't even scale with CPs.

Winged Twilight, yup... Another toggle and yet one more ability that doesn't scale with CPs.

Bound Armor? Well, nightblades have this as a passive, sorcerers have it as a toggle... lol.

Conjured Ward... More like Nerfed Ward.

Mage's Fury - Well, at least this ability seems to be working now... Sort of... Still the weakest execution in the game, but eh.

Surge... Nerfed into Oblivion, R.I.P. May 2016, but good for Crit based sorcerer tanking, according to @Wrobel -.-

Bolt Escape - The only skill in the game that punishes you for spamming it.

1.) True

2.) Wrong here, its a great stun that keeps mobs out of combat, players get startled when they attack you and get stuned.

3.) True, to a degree although it was buffed considerably

4.) In PVE, but its the BEST defense besides shields in PVP against every non sorcs

5.) Nope, its pretty good It adds extra dps place it near a boss and it will zap away. In pvp it scares people away from you. Plus its cool man c'mon droping a storm atro and stunning everyone is just plain badass.

6.) True.

7.) Yes its a toggle but it's and extra ally plus is has a heal compareable to BOL sorcs can't have an exact heal like BOL so the toggle Balance is out for the sake of homogeneity.

8.) True Lol

9.) Nope its still good but now it's an active defense instead of a passive one just like roll dodge and block, use it properly and you will do fine. It sucked when dodge roll/block was nerfed but it was needed since it was ridiculous you knew ward nerfs were comming because they were as broken as perma rolling/blocking

10.) True

11.) Rip Surge 2016, agree there

12.) Shouldn't have never nerfed this skill and yet gap closers get buffed which is ridiculous, agree here.

2) Rune Prison - Useless, we are discussing end game PvE, nothing that is worthwhile stunning in end game PvE can actually be trapped by Rune Prison.

3) I am sorry, I don't feel 'awesome' when I use that spell, using @Wrobel 's words.

4) True, Mines are very good in PvP.

5) I am sorry, the fact this ability looks awesome and yet it is so damn lackluster only makes it more frustrating. Its general damage is not enough to justify its use and the buff it provides, Major Berserk, should be given both to the person who activates the Synergy and to the summoner of the ability. Also, the AoE version of it should be a Wind Atronach that causes physical damage by spinning.

7) The healer pet is good for its utility, true, but its DPS is lackluster as it is not affected by CPs, which makes no sense at all. Worse, the DPS morph which should be great sucks even more for even its active ability isn't affected by your CP distribution.

9) I didn't say this particular skill is useless but that it was so heavily nerfed without giving it any additional benefit is stupid. All I want it to do in addition is heal pets it affects, I don't think it is asking too much.

And those are just problems we have with Skills, I didn't even list the number of ridiculous passives we have and how some of our passives don't affect our spells as they should. Nor did I mentioned our lack of a spammable ability, which is... Baffling. We are sorcerers but we don't have an instant cast magic DD ability...

I agree, mages in other games have a sustained spam skill idk why sorcs are lacking that skill but af leat you have substitute skill in destruction staff skill line(force pulse)

Khaos_Bane · June 2016

ParaNostram wrote: »

My main was a sorc, and this patch broke my heart. I was a sorc since beta, through buffs and nerfs. This? What they did with Dark Brotherhood made me straight up strip the gear from her, put it in the bank, and let anyone else take it. I'm normally of the philosophy of roll with the buffs and the nerfs, been that way since I started playing MMOs, but this patch is officially the one that pushed me too far to stick to that mentality.

They made the sorc BORING. @Wrobel has completely removed their most defining unique skills. I think he is moving towards homogenizing.

However, I have gotten back to enjoying my Templar again this DLC. I am enjoying my house.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

Literally the only time I have slotted a shield on my sorc in dungeons or trials is to solo Lamias or running no tank, I really fail to see how a shield nerf hurts the so badly for PVE.

Flaminir · June 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Literally the only time I have slotted a shield on my sorc in dungeons or trials is to solo Lamias or running no tank, I really fail to see how a shield nerf hurts the so badly for PVE.

Read post 306... it will enlighten you that we are not talking about the shield nerf.... that is quite literally one of the smallest concerns tbh when viewed on its own... sadly it was the straw that broke the camels back & therefore a few people are fixating on it from both sides.

Xjcon · June 2016

This sorc whine train still chugging along? Back up to a car full of Overload cheese and L2P.

Those who need to L2P be patient. I'm sure the great Yolo wizard will figure things out for you and make a build you can play. If you don't believe me go look up his video of sustained DPS on the first boss of VMOL.

TortUred_mAlice · June 2016

Flaminir wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Now we can just kick them in any group we end up with them in as they're just a liability compared to all other classes.

Personal i think everyone has banked on sheild stacking for sorc's i never have on mine and i last, it just means moving more, i have built mine with no pets and shields and towards very high dps of over 50k. I have taken to doing group dungeons on my own and have started with fungal grotto normal and can to the last boss with my sorc (unlike my dk where i can finish it) to me its just that people have banked on shield stacking etc to much and now are stuck in direction they need to go with the sorc

It is absolutely nothing to do with any of that tbh.

Too many people are jumping on the 'Shield nerf' bandwagon..... on both sides tbh.... Some sorcs are using this as the focal point, the straw that broke the camels back, and non-sorcs are using it as an angle to say everything is fine & just adapt...

The problems are far deeper....
No specialism.... only class who are not the best at anything & have a focus... we were best at solo/vMA but have had that nerfed this patch with no recompense.

No build diversity = Dull game play. - contributed to by a lack of basic skill types which ALL other classes have access to, meaning Sorcs get forced into a very rigid build & gear choice.

The main focus of an entire skill tree which is the only one in the game to fall outside of the CP system.

Toggles..... everywhere! Further adding to low build diversity & boring gameplay.

Reliance on 1 ulti to provide competitive DPS using sorc skills.... left click, left click, left click, left click, left click, left click, left click.... <yawn>

Sorc's used to be fun..... Now all the joy has been sucked out of them and they are just 2 dimensional & boring to play... and every other class does 'Sorc stuff' better than sorcs.

I don't use any offensive mage abilities so I'm going to talk about the shield nerf since that's the only thing that affects me.

I renew my shields every </=8 seconds anyway so the nerf doesn't affect me at all.

DPS means absolutely nothing. As long as you're doing more damage than they can heal, and you're healing more than they hit... I'll wait half an hour, I don't care if it's dull to you; I'm soloing bosses in mobs left right and centre who are the equivalent of 9-10 Veteran ranks above me.

My 2 ultimates are Storm Atronach and Bat Swarm (both morphed).

To the people that say "If you're a sorcerer, I'll kick you" Guess what? I'm not the first one to die, and I also have the entire mob/adds after me. Same rubbish happened in destiny "if you're a ____ you're getting kicked from my fireteam" *proceeds to solo the game instead as said class* he named his vids "casually soloing ___ (said raid)".

All that matters is net damage and net heal, if you're surviving the fight and your enemy isn't then you're going to win in the long run. As I've said above, I have soloed all of the possible parts of craglorn that you can solo, with a sorcerer. Never gone for DPS, never slotted a damage spell. Everything I run is Health/Shield/Distraction Pets. Full heavy armour.

Why is everyone so focused on DPS? That's essentially only good if you have the same amount of shields/health as your opponent. Best offence is a good defence, providing your net damage is positive.

This isn't mage boxing in duel arena RS with no armour. This is a big boss with smaller minions that chase you. Just stack 3-4 shields, run around the boss and restoring magicka from the minions. You've created a loop where the net gain on your health is positive whereas the enemy is going negative; they're going to lose after x amount of time, whereas your method of using the sorcerer is reliant on how much damage can you deal in x amount of time (DPS?). You're not accounting for damage received.

I play smarter, not harder. Nerfs don't affect me until you can't stack shields or break my loop cycle.

P.S. Adding <yawn> or "dull" doesn't support your argument, you're basically saying you can't be bothered to do something that you personally don't find interesting, however, in going down this unappealing route you can actually do what you are saying you can't do.

Khaos_Bane · June 2016

Xjcon wrote: »

This sorc whine train still chugging along? Back up to a car full of Overload cheese and L2P.

Those who need to L2P be patient. I'm sure the great Yolo wizard will figure things out for you and make a build you can play. If you don't believe me go look up his video of sustained DPS on the first boss of VMOL.

Spoken like a true DK and NB player lmao. Don't worry, nothing will dominate more than DKs or NBs in the future.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Gallifreyy wrote: »

Im just going to say L2P. If this affects you in PvE you really are bad and just need to learn to get good. In PvP its a bit rougher on magic but still completely manageable.

This +1 , you shouldn't really be running ward and surge in pve anyway, and pets actually got buffed (in terms of survival) which means even better dps in pve/boss fights.

Um... What? I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have no clue what you're talking about at this point. To say that a Sorcerer shouldn't be running wards and or surge in PVE...? Excuse me? And pets having better survival, thus equating to overall higher DPS in boss fights? What are you talking about? That has to be the most ignorant post I've read about the Sorcerer class.

First of all, without surge and it's morphs and wards? The class has no solid forms of defense, outside of Bolt Escape and it's morphs. And even then, the cost is increased in each use. So are you implying Sorcerers should spam blink to get out of tough spots, and hope restoration staff skills (outside of Healing Ward and morphs) are supposed to hold you down and get the job done? What are you actually talking about? Have you even played a Sorcerer? For either magicka or stamina? Are you trolling?

Second of all, a pets boost in survival has little to nothing to do with overall increased DPS to a boss. Would you like to know why? Because a critical point behind pet builds is the use of shields. They enable you to play defensively, while having an offensive pivot with weaved destruction staff attacks between Force Pulse/Crush Shock spam. M'kay? That's how that works in regards to pet builds. With Overload's use as a 3rd bar providing a utility skill (e.g. Ball of Lightning) and misc. skill of the summoner's choice.

So please, please stop talking about a class that you appear to not understand too well. And either: Play the class, read-up on the class, or watch videos of the class. Alright?

I wont comment on the pet part, because I never run pets, but that statement was true for the most part. Surge and Ward arent needed anywhere in PVE save VMA, and maybe lost boss of Maw where most magic users slot ward for the meteor phase. I understand that some people like to sacrifice DPS to run a shield in PVE on their sorcs, but I have yet to find a situation where I needed a shield to last more than about 3 seconds. As for surge, it gives two things, heals and spell power boost. In any good group, you get heals from a healer and spell power from potions.

From a PVE side of things, I think these changes have Zero effect on the extreme end of things, Competitive raids, etc. I think this might slow VMA times on average down a bit, because people will probably need to cast their shields a little more often. For casuals/pugs, no denying this makes sorcs a little less easy mode, but no other class needs a 20 second shield to DPS. Only thing I think this really hurts are the groups that were 4 sorc DPS/shieldspamming everything (Dont Care), and people like Thelon that like to solo ridiculous things. My guess is that those people will adapt just fine.

You are not wrong, the nerfs to Surge and Ward will only heavily affect Sorcerers in PvP and Vma, those are not skills we use for Raiding. Doesn't change the fact such heavy nerfs to Sorcerer's strongest points warranted buffs and changes where the class was lacking. We still don't have a spammable ability, which makes sorcerer build extremely rigid, we are still plagued by toggles, I mean, we have one of the Nightblades passives as a toggle, for heaven's sake. And the damned thing doesn't even have an active component...! Seriously... There are serious issues with this class that need fixing, but instead of visiting those, all we had from the DB patch were nerfs... That and small improvements to Stamina DPS which... Guess what? Still left Stamina sorcerer as one of the weakest stamina DPS... Well, at least we now may be able to beat stamina nightblades in DPS... Maybe. Of course when Nightblades go magicka they annihilate our DPS, but oh well.

At the end of the day, yes, sorcerer can complete content, they will struggle a lot more with VMA, but they can complete it. But they are not competitive when compared to other classes. Sorcerers are outshone by the other classes in every aspect of this game and that is wrong... It is just wrong.

No arguments that Sorcs are very inflexible when it comes to their DPS. That has been true for a long time. I dont like that we basically need to double bar two abilities. The lack of a spammable, is perhaps blown out of proportion. Plenty of builds dont use a class spammable. NBs are now using Force Pulse, Half the stam builds use weapon skills, etc. I have said it before, sorc DPS is VERY competitive, but probably requires the most skill to play. Look at the top Scores in VMA for Sorc and NB (not counting the cheater). Its the same guy and his times are within a few seconds of each other. He also runs sorc for raids because he pulls more DPS with it. The potential is there, its just way less forgiving.

Where I think we both agree is that the problem is that sorcs didnt get any buffs other than stam sorc. Personally, I couldnt care less about stam sorc. Sorc's are magic users per ZOS's own description. If you want to play stam sorc, more power to you, but I am not gonna lose any sleep if a stam sorc cant beat a magic sorc, etc.

They nerfed a few things that were perhaps a touch overpowered. Still not convinced surge is a nerf, but I havent been back to VMA. Ill let you know tomorrow. Shields were definitely nerfed. I personally think they took it a tad too far, but sorc shields were a little silly. Hardened ward is esentially useless now. It's only benefit over Harness Magic is that its cheaper, but the latter returns magic, so... The problem is, they probably could have used some buffs that they didnt get. I would like to see Bound Aegis reworked so it doesnt take up 2 slots. I would like to see mages wrath get buffed in damage and when it starts to scale. I would like Frags to be a little more predictable. Sorcs have More RNG in terms of their DPS than any other class. Sorc has been taken down a peg or 2, thats for sure, but I dont think its time to uninstall the game.

Flaminir · June 2016

TortUred_mAlice wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Now we can just kick them in any group we end up with them in as they're just a liability compared to all other classes.

Personal i think everyone has banked on sheild stacking for sorc's i never have on mine and i last, it just means moving more, i have built mine with no pets and shields and towards very high dps of over 50k. I have taken to doing group dungeons on my own and have started with fungal grotto normal and can to the last boss with my sorc (unlike my dk where i can finish it) to me its just that people have banked on shield stacking etc to much and now are stuck in direction they need to go with the sorc

It is absolutely nothing to do with any of that tbh.

Too many people are jumping on the 'Shield nerf' bandwagon..... on both sides tbh.... Some sorcs are using this as the focal point, the straw that broke the camels back, and non-sorcs are using it as an angle to say everything is fine & just adapt...

The problems are far deeper....
No specialism.... only class who are not the best at anything & have a focus... we were best at solo/vMA but have had that nerfed this patch with no recompense.

No build diversity = Dull game play. - contributed to by a lack of basic skill types which ALL other classes have access to, meaning Sorcs get forced into a very rigid build & gear choice.

The main focus of an entire skill tree which is the only one in the game to fall outside of the CP system.

Toggles..... everywhere! Further adding to low build diversity & boring gameplay.

Reliance on 1 ulti to provide competitive DPS using sorc skills.... left click, left click, left click, left click, left click, left click, left click.... <yawn>

Sorc's used to be fun..... Now all the joy has been sucked out of them and they are just 2 dimensional & boring to play... and every other class does 'Sorc stuff' better than sorcs.

I don't use any offensive mage abilities so I'm going to talk about the shield nerf since that's the only thing that affects me.

I renew my shields every </=8 seconds anyway so the nerf doesn't affect me at all.

DPS means absolutely nothing. As long as you're doing more damage than they can heal, and you're healing more than they hit... I'll wait half an hour, I don't care if it's dull to you; I'm soloing bosses in mobs left right and centre who are the equivalent of 9-10 Veteran ranks above me.

My 2 ultimates are Storm Atronach and Bat Swarm (both morphed).

To the people that say "If you're a sorcerer, I'll kick you" Guess what? I'm not the first one to die, and I also have the entire mob/adds after me. Same rubbish happened in destiny "if you're a ____ you're getting kicked from my fireteam" *proceeds to solo the game instead as said class* he named his vids "casually soloing ___ (said raid)".

All that matters is net damage and net heal, if you're surviving the fight and your enemy isn't then you're going to win in the long run. As I've said above, I have soloed all of the possible parts of craglorn that you can solo, with a sorcerer. Never gone for DPS, never slotted a damage spell. Everything I run is Health/Shield/Distraction Pets. Full heavy armour.

Why is everyone so focused on DPS? That's essentially only good if you have the same amount of shields/health as your opponent. Best offence is a good defence, providing your net damage is positive.

This isn't mage boxing in duel arena RS with no armour. This is a big boss with smaller minions that chase you. Just stack 3-4 shields, run around the boss and restoring magicka from the minions. You've created a loop where the net gain on your health is positive whereas the enemy is going negative; they're going to lose after x amount of time, whereas your method of using the sorcerer is reliant on how much damage can you deal in x amount of time (DPS?). You're not accounting for damage received.

I play smarter, not harder. Nerfs don't affect me until you can't stack shields or break my loop cycle.

P.S. Adding <yawn> or "dull" doesn't support your argument, you're basically saying you can't be bothered to do something that you personally don't find interesting, however, in going down this unappealing route you can actually do what you are saying you can't do.

@TortUred_mAlice

Your reply is written from your perspective... which is totally legitimate, however you do need to understand that the content that you say you're running with no problems at all is not the content we are talking about here.

To be honest any build of any class no matter how unoptimised can run through craglorn and do all of that if there's a semi decent player at the controls.

For Craglorn, bosses and such yes I'm sure you're having a blast, which is great. But we're talking about end game stuff.... where DPS does matter, in fact its the most important thing as various mechanics in endgame trials are dps races... fail that race and the boss will enrage & the group wipes.

I hate when people kick in small groups because its often pointless as just about anything can complete the content... but if you were to take a heavy armored, pet wielding sorc into trials as a DPS you would basically get laughed out of the group as you would be seriously harming the groups chance of completion/good scores.

My <yawn> comment was not to support any of the number of arguements, but was in relation to Overload.... people say Sorcs pull good dps because of Overload.... but its just 30 seconds of hitting 1 button over and over and over again..... if you read the thread in full you will understand that one of the major concerns of a large part of the sorc community is that the builds are very boring and two dimensional in comparison to all other classes to do good dps.... just clicking one button over and over involves zero skill & is very boring, but there's no alternative when this provides the highest dps.

P.S. The fact that you say you are using no offensive abilities from the Sorc lines also tells a story.... and that's part of the problem... too many of those skills are sub par and are better off replaced with generic skills from the weapon/guild lines... again another issue compared to other classes).

Grao · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Gallifreyy wrote: »

Im just going to say L2P. If this affects you in PvE you really are bad and just need to learn to get good. In PvP its a bit rougher on magic but still completely manageable.

This +1 , you shouldn't really be running ward and surge in pve anyway, and pets actually got buffed (in terms of survival) which means even better dps in pve/boss fights.

Um... What? I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have no clue what you're talking about at this point. To say that a Sorcerer shouldn't be running wards and or surge in PVE...? Excuse me? And pets having better survival, thus equating to overall higher DPS in boss fights? What are you talking about? That has to be the most ignorant post I've read about the Sorcerer class.

First of all, without surge and it's morphs and wards? The class has no solid forms of defense, outside of Bolt Escape and it's morphs. And even then, the cost is increased in each use. So are you implying Sorcerers should spam blink to get out of tough spots, and hope restoration staff skills (outside of Healing Ward and morphs) are supposed to hold you down and get the job done? What are you actually talking about? Have you even played a Sorcerer? For either magicka or stamina? Are you trolling?

Second of all, a pets boost in survival has little to nothing to do with overall increased DPS to a boss. Would you like to know why? Because a critical point behind pet builds is the use of shields. They enable you to play defensively, while having an offensive pivot with weaved destruction staff attacks between Force Pulse/Crush Shock spam. M'kay? That's how that works in regards to pet builds. With Overload's use as a 3rd bar providing a utility skill (e.g. Ball of Lightning) and misc. skill of the summoner's choice.

So please, please stop talking about a class that you appear to not understand too well. And either: Play the class, read-up on the class, or watch videos of the class. Alright?

I wont comment on the pet part, because I never run pets, but that statement was true for the most part. Surge and Ward arent needed anywhere in PVE save VMA, and maybe lost boss of Maw where most magic users slot ward for the meteor phase. I understand that some people like to sacrifice DPS to run a shield in PVE on their sorcs, but I have yet to find a situation where I needed a shield to last more than about 3 seconds. As for surge, it gives two things, heals and spell power boost. In any good group, you get heals from a healer and spell power from potions.

From a PVE side of things, I think these changes have Zero effect on the extreme end of things, Competitive raids, etc. I think this might slow VMA times on average down a bit, because people will probably need to cast their shields a little more often. For casuals/pugs, no denying this makes sorcs a little less easy mode, but no other class needs a 20 second shield to DPS. Only thing I think this really hurts are the groups that were 4 sorc DPS/shieldspamming everything (Dont Care), and people like Thelon that like to solo ridiculous things. My guess is that those people will adapt just fine.

You are not wrong, the nerfs to Surge and Ward will only heavily affect Sorcerers in PvP and Vma, those are not skills we use for Raiding. Doesn't change the fact such heavy nerfs to Sorcerer's strongest points warranted buffs and changes where the class was lacking. We still don't have a spammable ability, which makes sorcerer build extremely rigid, we are still plagued by toggles, I mean, we have one of the Nightblades passives as a toggle, for heaven's sake. And the damned thing doesn't even have an active component...! Seriously... There are serious issues with this class that need fixing, but instead of visiting those, all we had from the DB patch were nerfs... That and small improvements to Stamina DPS which... Guess what? Still left Stamina sorcerer as one of the weakest stamina DPS... Well, at least we now may be able to beat stamina nightblades in DPS... Maybe. Of course when Nightblades go magicka they annihilate our DPS, but oh well.

At the end of the day, yes, sorcerer can complete content, they will struggle a lot more with VMA, but they can complete it. But they are not competitive when compared to other classes. Sorcerers are outshone by the other classes in every aspect of this game and that is wrong... It is just wrong.

No arguments that Sorcs are very inflexible when it comes to their DPS. That has been true for a long time. I dont like that we basically need to double bar two abilities. The lack of a spammable, is perhaps blown out of proportion. Plenty of builds dont use a class spammable. NBs are now using Force Pulse, Half the stam builds use weapon skills, etc. I have said it before, sorc DPS is VERY competitive, but probably requires the most skill to play. Look at the top Scores in VMA for Sorc and NB (not counting the cheater). Its the same guy and his times are within a few seconds of each other. He also runs sorc for raids because he pulls more DPS with it. The potential is there, its just way less forgiving.

Where I think we both agree is that the problem is that sorcs didnt get any buffs other than stam sorc. Personally, I couldnt care less about stam sorc. Sorc's are magic users per ZOS's own description. If you want to play stam sorc, more power to you, but I am not gonna lose any sleep if a stam sorc cant beat a magic sorc, etc.

They nerfed a few things that were perhaps a touch overpowered. Still not convinced surge is a nerf, but I havent been back to VMA. Ill let you know tomorrow. Shields were definitely nerfed. I personally think they took it a tad too far, but sorc shields were a little silly. Hardened ward is esentially useless now. It's only benefit over Harness Magic is that its cheaper, but the latter returns magic, so... The problem is, they probably could have used some buffs that they didnt get. I would like to see Bound Aegis reworked so it doesnt take up 2 slots. I would like to see mages wrath get buffed in damage and when it starts to scale. I would like Frags to be a little more predictable. Sorcs have More RNG in terms of their DPS than any other class. Sorc has been taken down a peg or 2, thats for sure, but I dont think its time to uninstall the game.

Even if you accept Sorcerer's DPS is very competitive (and I don't, still believe we are at best third, likely in forth in the DPS pyramid), ours is still the most boring DPS rotation ever. Look at the skills we have to slot, Crystal Fragments (a skills you only use when the gods of RNG smile), Lightning Splash, Boundless Storm(a skill that encourages melee range combat when magicka dps are forced to use a ranged weapon and a ranged spammable), Mage's Wrath (the weakest execute in the game with both morphs being extremely underwhelming), Bound Aegis (The TOGGLE that Nightblades get as a passive), Power Overload (the Ultimate everyone seems to think is amazing, but that in truth is extremely buggy and is actually a loss of DPS in long fights), and in the overload bar you may have Twilight Tormentor (the single target DPS pet that isn't at all affected by your champion points).

Next the skills we use that are not from the sorcerer kit, Force Pulse, Elemental Blockade, Inner Light and Shooting Star.

Now, Bound Aegis has to be triple slotted, same for Inner Light, so that means in every bar we actually only have 3 buttons to press and it is... A bore. And yes, it has been this way for a long while, but that Zenimax came, nerfed us and didn't fix anything that needed working in our kit? It is unforgivable.

Now, you think not having a spammable isn't a big deal... If you replace Force Pulse with a sorcerer spammable you can play with Dual Wield or Two Handed as your main weapon, both of which have more Spell Damage and Weapon Damage than Destruction Staves. What would that change?

Well, on the bad side your Light attack Damage would be weaker because melee weapons light attack damage scale with stamina, but would the difference be huge? Not likely specially because you'd have more Weapon Power to compensate for the difference between Magicka and Stamina Pools.

On the positive side, as mentioned before, having a melee weapon as your main weapon would increase your Spell Power which in turn empowers everyone of your spells. On top of that you'd have three extra sorcerer skills on your main bar (The spammable, Lightning Splash and Overload) increasing your Spell and Weapon Power an extra 6 %. Just this changes are considerable increase in DPS, but wait, it gets better.

Your Off Bar weapon would be a Destruction staff still, after all Elemental Blockade is the best DoT in the game, but instead of using a Fire Destruction Staff, you'd be able to slot a Lightning Staff. What would that mean? That your Elemental Blockade would be causing an extra 5% damage, not to mention it would have a chance to cause extra damage with every tick to enemies bellow 15% health.

Want more? Remember what I said about Boundless Storm? Well, with this build, you would be in melee range and thus you'd have an extra DoT, this one also with a chance to cause extra damage to enemies bellow 15% health.

Now lets go into Overload. One of the huge issues with this ultimate is that when spammed it tends to bug, but if our spammable could in the Overload bar, how much do you think the potential DPS for that ultimate would grow? Not to mention it would far less boring to DPS with overload if we at least had an extra button to push in Overload mode.

That is one change in the sorcerer tree and look how much of a difference it made in our typical DPS build...

Add to that giving a active ability to Bound Aegis, or even better, make that Bound Aegis increases your Health and the passive Expert Summoner Increases your Magicka pool when a pet is slotted and you will have even more things to do in your rotation. Make so that the Tormentor is actually affected by our Storm Calling Passives and by Our CPs and that pet will be amazing, it may actually be good enough to justify slotting Daedric Curse.

Flaminir · June 2016

@Grao

Excellent post that... really sums up the whole 'tied to destruction staff' issue very eloquently!

Grao · June 2016

Flaminir wrote: »

@Grao

Excellent post that... really sums up the whole 'tied to destruction staff' issue very eloquently!

Thank you, I tried. Did you see @Joy_Division 's post regarding his results in VMA? Very interesting read there as well.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269600/my-db-sorcerer-experience-in-maelstrom-arena-doable-yet-boring

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Gallifreyy wrote: »

Im just going to say L2P. If this affects you in PvE you really are bad and just need to learn to get good. In PvP its a bit rougher on magic but still completely manageable.

This +1 , you shouldn't really be running ward and surge in pve anyway, and pets actually got buffed (in terms of survival) which means even better dps in pve/boss fights.

Um... What? I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have no clue what you're talking about at this point. To say that a Sorcerer shouldn't be running wards and or surge in PVE...? Excuse me? And pets having better survival, thus equating to overall higher DPS in boss fights? What are you talking about? That has to be the most ignorant post I've read about the Sorcerer class.

First of all, without surge and it's morphs and wards? The class has no solid forms of defense, outside of Bolt Escape and it's morphs. And even then, the cost is increased in each use. So are you implying Sorcerers should spam blink to get out of tough spots, and hope restoration staff skills (outside of Healing Ward and morphs) are supposed to hold you down and get the job done? What are you actually talking about? Have you even played a Sorcerer? For either magicka or stamina? Are you trolling?

Second of all, a pets boost in survival has little to nothing to do with overall increased DPS to a boss. Would you like to know why? Because a critical point behind pet builds is the use of shields. They enable you to play defensively, while having an offensive pivot with weaved destruction staff attacks between Force Pulse/Crush Shock spam. M'kay? That's how that works in regards to pet builds. With Overload's use as a 3rd bar providing a utility skill (e.g. Ball of Lightning) and misc. skill of the summoner's choice.

So please, please stop talking about a class that you appear to not understand too well. And either: Play the class, read-up on the class, or watch videos of the class. Alright?

I wont comment on the pet part, because I never run pets, but that statement was true for the most part. Surge and Ward arent needed anywhere in PVE save VMA, and maybe lost boss of Maw where most magic users slot ward for the meteor phase. I understand that some people like to sacrifice DPS to run a shield in PVE on their sorcs, but I have yet to find a situation where I needed a shield to last more than about 3 seconds. As for surge, it gives two things, heals and spell power boost. In any good group, you get heals from a healer and spell power from potions.

From a PVE side of things, I think these changes have Zero effect on the extreme end of things, Competitive raids, etc. I think this might slow VMA times on average down a bit, because people will probably need to cast their shields a little more often. For casuals/pugs, no denying this makes sorcs a little less easy mode, but no other class needs a 20 second shield to DPS. Only thing I think this really hurts are the groups that were 4 sorc DPS/shieldspamming everything (Dont Care), and people like Thelon that like to solo ridiculous things. My guess is that those people will adapt just fine.

You are not wrong, the nerfs to Surge and Ward will only heavily affect Sorcerers in PvP and Vma, those are not skills we use for Raiding. Doesn't change the fact such heavy nerfs to Sorcerer's strongest points warranted buffs and changes where the class was lacking. We still don't have a spammable ability, which makes sorcerer build extremely rigid, we are still plagued by toggles, I mean, we have one of the Nightblades passives as a toggle, for heaven's sake. And the damned thing doesn't even have an active component...! Seriously... There are serious issues with this class that need fixing, but instead of visiting those, all we had from the DB patch were nerfs... That and small improvements to Stamina DPS which... Guess what? Still left Stamina sorcerer as one of the weakest stamina DPS... Well, at least we now may be able to beat stamina nightblades in DPS... Maybe. Of course when Nightblades go magicka they annihilate our DPS, but oh well.

At the end of the day, yes, sorcerer can complete content, they will struggle a lot more with VMA, but they can complete it. But they are not competitive when compared to other classes. Sorcerers are outshone by the other classes in every aspect of this game and that is wrong... It is just wrong.

No arguments that Sorcs are very inflexible when it comes to their DPS. That has been true for a long time. I dont like that we basically need to double bar two abilities. The lack of a spammable, is perhaps blown out of proportion. Plenty of builds dont use a class spammable. NBs are now using Force Pulse, Half the stam builds use weapon skills, etc. I have said it before, sorc DPS is VERY competitive, but probably requires the most skill to play. Look at the top Scores in VMA for Sorc and NB (not counting the cheater). Its the same guy and his times are within a few seconds of each other. He also runs sorc for raids because he pulls more DPS with it. The potential is there, its just way less forgiving.

Where I think we both agree is that the problem is that sorcs didnt get any buffs other than stam sorc. Personally, I couldnt care less about stam sorc. Sorc's are magic users per ZOS's own description. If you want to play stam sorc, more power to you, but I am not gonna lose any sleep if a stam sorc cant beat a magic sorc, etc.

They nerfed a few things that were perhaps a touch overpowered. Still not convinced surge is a nerf, but I havent been back to VMA. Ill let you know tomorrow. Shields were definitely nerfed. I personally think they took it a tad too far, but sorc shields were a little silly. Hardened ward is esentially useless now. It's only benefit over Harness Magic is that its cheaper, but the latter returns magic, so... The problem is, they probably could have used some buffs that they didnt get. I would like to see Bound Aegis reworked so it doesnt take up 2 slots. I would like to see mages wrath get buffed in damage and when it starts to scale. I would like Frags to be a little more predictable. Sorcs have More RNG in terms of their DPS than any other class. Sorc has been taken down a peg or 2, thats for sure, but I dont think its time to uninstall the game.

Even if you accept Sorcerer's DPS is very competitive (and I don't, still believe we are at best third, likely in forth in the DPS pyramid), ours is still the most boring DPS rotation ever. Look at the skills we have to slot, Crystal Fragments (a skills you only use when the gods of RNG smile), Lightning Splash, Boundless Storm(a skill that encourages melee range combat when magicka dps are forced to use a ranged weapon and a ranged spammable), Mage's Wrath (the weakest execute in the game with both morphs being extremely underwhelming), Bound Aegis (The TOGGLE that Nightblades get as a passive), Power Overload (the Ultimate everyone seems to think is amazing, but that in truth is extremely buggy and is actually a loss of DPS in long fights), and in the overload bar you may have Twilight Tormentor (the single target DPS pet that isn't at all affected by your champion points).

Next the skills we use that are not from the sorcerer kit, Force Pulse, Elemental Blockade, Inner Light and Shooting Star.

Now, Bound Aegis has to be triple slotted, same for Inner Light, so that means in every bar we actually only have 3 buttons to press and it is... A bore. And yes, it has been this way for a long while, but that Zenimax came, nerfed us and didn't fix anything that needed working in our kit? It is unforgivable.

Now, you think not having a spammable isn't a big deal... If you replace Force Pulse with a sorcerer spammable you can play with Dual Wield or Two Handed as your main weapon, both of which have more Spell Damage and Weapon Damage than Destruction Staves. What would that change?

Well, on the bad side your Light attack Damage would be weaker because melee weapons light attack damage scale with stamina, but would the difference be huge? Not likely specially because you'd have more Weapon Power to compensate for the difference between Magicka and Stamina Pools.

On the positive side, as mentioned before, having a melee weapon as your main weapon would increase your Spell Power which in turn empowers everyone of your spells. On top of that you'd have three extra sorcerer skills on your main bar (The spammable, Lightning Splash and Overload) increasing your Spell and Weapon Power an extra 6 %. Just this changes are considerable increase in DPS, but wait, it gets better.

Your Off Bar weapon would be a Destruction staff still, after all Elemental Blockade is the best DoT in the game, but instead of using a Fire Destruction Staff, you'd be able to slot a Lightning Staff. What would that mean? That your Elemental Blockade would be causing an extra 5% damage, not to mention it would have a chance to cause extra damage with every tick to enemies bellow 15% health.

Want more? Remember what I said about Boundless Storm? Well, with this build, you would be in melee range and thus you'd have an extra DoT, this one also with a chance to cause extra damage to enemies bellow 15% health.

Now lets go into Overload. One of the huge issues with this ultimate is that when spammed it tends to bug, but if our spammable could in the Overload bar, how much do you think the potential DPS for that ultimate would grow? Not to mention it would far less boring to DPS with overload if we at least had an extra button to push in Overload mode.

That is one change in the sorcerer tree and look how much of a difference it made in our typical DPS build...

Add to that giving a active ability to Bound Aegis, or even better, make that Bound Aegis increases your Health and the passive Expert Summoner Increases your Magicka pool when a pet is slotted and you will have even more things to do in your rotation. Make so that the Tormentor is actually affected by our Storm Calling Passives and by Our CPs and that pet will be amazing, it may actually be good enough to justify slotting Daedric Curse.

You lost me when you started talking about using overload in a long fight. Yep, its a DPS loss. Don't use it. Overload in PVE is highly useful in VMA or for impressing your buddies on 10 second cremetorial guard parses. The best Sorc damage ultimate is the new morph of negate, and on single target, good sorcs run meteor.

We are going to disagree on a few things though. I dont think sorcs are in a bad spot for competitive DPS. They are perhaps a touch behind Magic NB in ranged DPS, but they are ranged. They should pull lower than melee builds. Right now Stam DK is probably the best for single target DPS. People say its OP. Maybe maybe not. Ever play one? Flurry has no range at all, even small aoe circles around a boss will cause issues. 3 of their dots are ground based, as is their ultimate so mobile fights are an issue. And if you think sorcs are squishy, Ha! Stam DKs got nothing unless you break down and slot vigor.

I agree that a sorc rotation is a touch boring, which is why it is not my first choice, but that is no more true today than it was a week ago. I like playing melee, personally. Maybe you should roll another toon if you dont like this one? Easy to say, I know. But its so easy to level now. I think the biggest issue we are seeing is that this is the first time sorcs are on the outside looking in. Every other class has seen serious nerfs at some point. Other than a small nerf to streak a while back, this is the first time sorcs have been hit hard by a patch.

Makkir · June 2016

I wish they would add something to our current class skills that would at least bring some group utility you can't currently get from other classes.

Grao · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Gallifreyy wrote: »

Im just going to say L2P. If this affects you in PvE you really are bad and just need to learn to get good. In PvP its a bit rougher on magic but still completely manageable.

This +1 , you shouldn't really be running ward and surge in pve anyway, and pets actually got buffed (in terms of survival) which means even better dps in pve/boss fights.

Um... What? I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have no clue what you're talking about at this point. To say that a Sorcerer shouldn't be running wards and or surge in PVE...? Excuse me? And pets having better survival, thus equating to overall higher DPS in boss fights? What are you talking about? That has to be the most ignorant post I've read about the Sorcerer class.

First of all, without surge and it's morphs and wards? The class has no solid forms of defense, outside of Bolt Escape and it's morphs. And even then, the cost is increased in each use. So are you implying Sorcerers should spam blink to get out of tough spots, and hope restoration staff skills (outside of Healing Ward and morphs) are supposed to hold you down and get the job done? What are you actually talking about? Have you even played a Sorcerer? For either magicka or stamina? Are you trolling?

Second of all, a pets boost in survival has little to nothing to do with overall increased DPS to a boss. Would you like to know why? Because a critical point behind pet builds is the use of shields. They enable you to play defensively, while having an offensive pivot with weaved destruction staff attacks between Force Pulse/Crush Shock spam. M'kay? That's how that works in regards to pet builds. With Overload's use as a 3rd bar providing a utility skill (e.g. Ball of Lightning) and misc. skill of the summoner's choice.

So please, please stop talking about a class that you appear to not understand too well. And either: Play the class, read-up on the class, or watch videos of the class. Alright?

I wont comment on the pet part, because I never run pets, but that statement was true for the most part. Surge and Ward arent needed anywhere in PVE save VMA, and maybe lost boss of Maw where most magic users slot ward for the meteor phase. I understand that some people like to sacrifice DPS to run a shield in PVE on their sorcs, but I have yet to find a situation where I needed a shield to last more than about 3 seconds. As for surge, it gives two things, heals and spell power boost. In any good group, you get heals from a healer and spell power from potions.

From a PVE side of things, I think these changes have Zero effect on the extreme end of things, Competitive raids, etc. I think this might slow VMA times on average down a bit, because people will probably need to cast their shields a little more often. For casuals/pugs, no denying this makes sorcs a little less easy mode, but no other class needs a 20 second shield to DPS. Only thing I think this really hurts are the groups that were 4 sorc DPS/shieldspamming everything (Dont Care), and people like Thelon that like to solo ridiculous things. My guess is that those people will adapt just fine.

You are not wrong, the nerfs to Surge and Ward will only heavily affect Sorcerers in PvP and Vma, those are not skills we use for Raiding. Doesn't change the fact such heavy nerfs to Sorcerer's strongest points warranted buffs and changes where the class was lacking. We still don't have a spammable ability, which makes sorcerer build extremely rigid, we are still plagued by toggles, I mean, we have one of the Nightblades passives as a toggle, for heaven's sake. And the damned thing doesn't even have an active component...! Seriously... There are serious issues with this class that need fixing, but instead of visiting those, all we had from the DB patch were nerfs... That and small improvements to Stamina DPS which... Guess what? Still left Stamina sorcerer as one of the weakest stamina DPS... Well, at least we now may be able to beat stamina nightblades in DPS... Maybe. Of course when Nightblades go magicka they annihilate our DPS, but oh well.

At the end of the day, yes, sorcerer can complete content, they will struggle a lot more with VMA, but they can complete it. But they are not competitive when compared to other classes. Sorcerers are outshone by the other classes in every aspect of this game and that is wrong... It is just wrong.

No arguments that Sorcs are very inflexible when it comes to their DPS. That has been true for a long time. I dont like that we basically need to double bar two abilities. The lack of a spammable, is perhaps blown out of proportion. Plenty of builds dont use a class spammable. NBs are now using Force Pulse, Half the stam builds use weapon skills, etc. I have said it before, sorc DPS is VERY competitive, but probably requires the most skill to play. Look at the top Scores in VMA for Sorc and NB (not counting the cheater). Its the same guy and his times are within a few seconds of each other. He also runs sorc for raids because he pulls more DPS with it. The potential is there, its just way less forgiving.

Where I think we both agree is that the problem is that sorcs didnt get any buffs other than stam sorc. Personally, I couldnt care less about stam sorc. Sorc's are magic users per ZOS's own description. If you want to play stam sorc, more power to you, but I am not gonna lose any sleep if a stam sorc cant beat a magic sorc, etc.

They nerfed a few things that were perhaps a touch overpowered. Still not convinced surge is a nerf, but I havent been back to VMA. Ill let you know tomorrow. Shields were definitely nerfed. I personally think they took it a tad too far, but sorc shields were a little silly. Hardened ward is esentially useless now. It's only benefit over Harness Magic is that its cheaper, but the latter returns magic, so... The problem is, they probably could have used some buffs that they didnt get. I would like to see Bound Aegis reworked so it doesnt take up 2 slots. I would like to see mages wrath get buffed in damage and when it starts to scale. I would like Frags to be a little more predictable. Sorcs have More RNG in terms of their DPS than any other class. Sorc has been taken down a peg or 2, thats for sure, but I dont think its time to uninstall the game.

Even if you accept Sorcerer's DPS is very competitive (and I don't, still believe we are at best third, likely in forth in the DPS pyramid), ours is still the most boring DPS rotation ever. Look at the skills we have to slot, Crystal Fragments (a skills you only use when the gods of RNG smile), Lightning Splash, Boundless Storm(a skill that encourages melee range combat when magicka dps are forced to use a ranged weapon and a ranged spammable), Mage's Wrath (the weakest execute in the game with both morphs being extremely underwhelming), Bound Aegis (The TOGGLE that Nightblades get as a passive), Power Overload (the Ultimate everyone seems to think is amazing, but that in truth is extremely buggy and is actually a loss of DPS in long fights), and in the overload bar you may have Twilight Tormentor (the single target DPS pet that isn't at all affected by your champion points).

Next the skills we use that are not from the sorcerer kit, Force Pulse, Elemental Blockade, Inner Light and Shooting Star.

Now, Bound Aegis has to be triple slotted, same for Inner Light, so that means in every bar we actually only have 3 buttons to press and it is... A bore. And yes, it has been this way for a long while, but that Zenimax came, nerfed us and didn't fix anything that needed working in our kit? It is unforgivable.

Now, you think not having a spammable isn't a big deal... If you replace Force Pulse with a sorcerer spammable you can play with Dual Wield or Two Handed as your main weapon, both of which have more Spell Damage and Weapon Damage than Destruction Staves. What would that change?

Well, on the bad side your Light attack Damage would be weaker because melee weapons light attack damage scale with stamina, but would the difference be huge? Not likely specially because you'd have more Weapon Power to compensate for the difference between Magicka and Stamina Pools.

On the positive side, as mentioned before, having a melee weapon as your main weapon would increase your Spell Power which in turn empowers everyone of your spells. On top of that you'd have three extra sorcerer skills on your main bar (The spammable, Lightning Splash and Overload) increasing your Spell and Weapon Power an extra 6 %. Just this changes are considerable increase in DPS, but wait, it gets better.

Your Off Bar weapon would be a Destruction staff still, after all Elemental Blockade is the best DoT in the game, but instead of using a Fire Destruction Staff, you'd be able to slot a Lightning Staff. What would that mean? That your Elemental Blockade would be causing an extra 5% damage, not to mention it would have a chance to cause extra damage with every tick to enemies bellow 15% health.

Want more? Remember what I said about Boundless Storm? Well, with this build, you would be in melee range and thus you'd have an extra DoT, this one also with a chance to cause extra damage to enemies bellow 15% health.

Now lets go into Overload. One of the huge issues with this ultimate is that when spammed it tends to bug, but if our spammable could in the Overload bar, how much do you think the potential DPS for that ultimate would grow? Not to mention it would far less boring to DPS with overload if we at least had an extra button to push in Overload mode.

That is one change in the sorcerer tree and look how much of a difference it made in our typical DPS build...

Add to that giving a active ability to Bound Aegis, or even better, make that Bound Aegis increases your Health and the passive Expert Summoner Increases your Magicka pool when a pet is slotted and you will have even more things to do in your rotation. Make so that the Tormentor is actually affected by our Storm Calling Passives and by Our CPs and that pet will be amazing, it may actually be good enough to justify slotting Daedric Curse.

You lost me when you started talking about using overload in a long fight. Yep, its a DPS loss. Don't use it. Overload in PVE is highly useful in VMA or for impressing your buddies on 10 second cremetorial guard parses. The best Sorc damage ultimate is the new morph of negate, and on single target, good sorcs run meteor.

We are going to disagree on a few things though. I dont think sorcs are in a bad spot for competitive DPS. They are perhaps a touch behind Magic NB in ranged DPS, but they are ranged. They should pull lower than melee builds. Right now Stam DK is probably the best for single target DPS. People say its OP. Maybe maybe not. Ever play one? Flurry has no range at all, even small aoe circles around a boss will cause issues. 3 of their dots are ground based, as is their ultimate so mobile fights are an issue. And if you think sorcs are squishy, Ha! Stam DKs got nothing unless you break down and slot vigor.

I agree that a sorc rotation is a touch boring, which is why it is not my first choice, but that is no more true today than it was a week ago. I like playing melee, personally. Maybe you should roll another toon if you dont like this one? Easy to say, I know. But its so easy to level now. I think the biggest issue we are seeing is that this is the first time sorcs are on the outside looking in. Every other class has seen serious nerfs at some point. Other than a small nerf to streak a while back, this is the first time sorcs have been hit hard by a patch.

Oh, I am slowly leveling a stamina DK. I have no plans to play my sorcerer until they make it better and more fun to use.

Dymence · June 2016

These type of threads are becoming so sad man. At this point I have nothing more to say than l2p, git gud, etc etc...

PlagueMonk · June 2016

For all you Sorc who told us NB to suck it up when they rendered our cloak pretty useless..........he who cast stones in glass houses......face it your triple shield stacking was completely ruining content. When 4 Sorc ALONE could take on bosses meant for full raid groups, I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

You can either wallow in your bitter QQ tears or adapt.

SublimeSparo · June 2016

PlagueMonk wrote: »

For all you Sorc who told us NB to suck it up when they rendered our cloak pretty useless..........he who cast stones in glass houses......face it your triple shield stacking was completely ruining content. When 4 Sorc ALONE could take on bosses meant for full raid groups, I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

You can either wallow in your bitter QQ tears or adapt.

Along with a nb tank, I solo dps'd the trash mobs and first boss of Atherian Archive on a vet 3 stam dk.
4 magicka nb's DD's can quite easily speedrun any dungeon.
Cloak is far from broken an if I remember correctly due to all the qq from nb's they got the magelight debuff reduced from 5s to 3s, no such leniency was shown to the reworked time of ward.
It wasn't just sorcs who complained about cloak, it was every other class, in fact even other nb's lol