Good job making sorcs completely useless in PvE

Minute_Waltz · June 2016

Lucky28 wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

I don't run with tanks, ever. and only run with off-healers. and still can.

The problem i have with sorcs is that they where dumbed down, you don't have to build for anything.

You can still manage, you may just have to get out of your comfort zone. That's what some of the most experience players have been saying from pve/pvp for the past 9 pages

I've already said i can still do it that's not the problem.

The problem is the class is dull it's boring, the class has no verity or interesting components anymore.

It will always be dull and boring if you just sit back casting wards. How about try and go out all dps and see if that makes your sorc experience more interesting?

I don't sit back at cast wards. and i pull 30-40K dps. last i checked which was a while ago as i don't have FTC anymore.

Great, then db update won't really affect you as not one single bit of that dps has been nerfed.

Lucky28 · June 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

I don't run with tanks, ever. and only run with off-healers. and still can.

The problem i have with sorcs is that they where dumbed down, you don't have to build for anything.

You can still manage, you may just have to get out of your comfort zone. That's what some of the most experience players have been saying from pve/pvp for the past 9 pages

I've already said i can still do it that's not the problem.

The problem is the class is dull it's boring, the class has no verity or interesting components anymore.

It will always be dull and boring if you just sit back casting wards. How about try and go out all dps and see if that makes your sorc experience more interesting?

I don't sit back at cast wards. and i pull 30-40K dps. last i checked which was a while ago as i don't have FTC anymore.

Great, then db update won't really affect you as not one single bit of that dps has been nerfed.

.... that was never a concern of mine to begin with.

fosokles · June 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

I adapted by going to another game.

/thread

Go away bad player that can only play on a godmode class. xD

In what universe is an Argonian magicka NB godmode class? I mean just by playing Argonian you already chose the hard mode

.

Dromede · June 2016

To everyone hating on sorcs who used shields and Overload - we did because this was and still is the best we could do.

PVE perspective here - the only way to kill a big bad boss like in ICP (before) was to build up as much Overload as you could and use it, reapplying dots (of course, if the third bar lets you out to the rest of your skills). Using destro staff and sorc skills, using your own buffs and having a great rotation will put you at 15-22k DPs depending on skill and luck (crystal frags proc). With group buffs, you might go up to 23-28k.

Add Overload, and only then you'd see numbers comfortably over 25-35 k. Unless your overload freaks out into a long heavy attack, then we're back at 20s.

Don't tell me that's rude of us to use Overload 'easy mode'. You can't blame roughly quarter of population for doing what only makes sense, what we are forced into doing.

fosokles · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

Kungfu wrote: »

Check out builds by people like Nos (lol forgot his full name, been reading it as just "Nos" for so long). He's got some unconventional builds that may provide insight for interested players.

I actually checked Nos's DoT based build. It is pretty interesting specially as it uses a lightning staff which benefits from our passsives. Unfortunately that build only achieves high DPS against mobs, in a solo boss fight I believe it can only reach about 30K DPS and that is assuming the sorcerer manages to to maintain their ground targeted DoTs 100% of the time, which is not always possible.

Considering other classes can maintain sustained DPS over 40k reaching up to 50-55 k at times while bringing more group utility than sorcerers can provide with their current kit, you can't say sorcerers are competitive in PvE.

There is no class/setup in this game that can maintain 40k dps on the boss. If you see someone pulling out these kind of numbers its either because the fight is very short (~30s) or they are doing lot of splash damage to nearby ads. And as for sorcerers, good players can keep up with magplars in terms of DPS so i don't see any problems with the class. Whiny players need to get better or switch to easier classes (which is what i do constantly btw).

Dromede · June 2016

fosokles wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Kungfu wrote: »

Check out builds by people like Nos (lol forgot his full name, been reading it as just "Nos" for so long). He's got some unconventional builds that may provide insight for interested players.

I actually checked Nos's DoT based build. It is pretty interesting specially as it uses a lightning staff which benefits from our passsives. Unfortunately that build only achieves high DPS against mobs, in a solo boss fight I believe it can only reach about 30K DPS and that is assuming the sorcerer manages to to maintain their ground targeted DoTs 100% of the time, which is not always possible.

Considering other classes can maintain sustained DPS over 40k reaching up to 50-55 k at times while bringing more group utility than sorcerers can provide with their current kit, you can't say sorcerers are competitive in PvE.

There is no class/setup in this game that can maintain 40k dps on the boss. If you see someone pulling out these kind of numbers its either because the fight is very short (~30s) or they are doing lot of splash damage to nearby ads. And as for sorcerers, good players can keep up with magplars in terms of DPS so i don't see any problems with the class. Whiny players need to get better or switch to easier classes (which is what i do constantly btw).

Lol. That's not true - look up a video of vet MOL made by a stam dk. Obviously, group buffs, obviously, extremely skilled player, DPs 45k+ consistent in a pretty long fight with only 1 extra add popping.

'Getting better' requires direct lowering DPs (ditching dual weilding for resto stuff). I'll be honest - I kinda made my peace with shield Nerf as it was a tad overpowered before, but Surge Nerf was beyond unnecessary. I might have to switch it for Entropy and lose a little bit more of class identity for more reliable heals.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Grao wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

My main was a sorc, and this patch broke my heart. I was a sorc since beta, through buffs and nerfs. This? What they did with Dark Brotherhood made me straight up strip the gear from her, put it in the bank, and let anyone else take it. I'm normally of the philosophy of roll with the buffs and the nerfs, been that way since I started playing MMOs, but this patch is officially the one that pushed me too far to stick to that mentality.

R.I.P. Para Nostram
VR16 Bosmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
She was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood

Update your signature and join the clan @ParaNostram , I also mained a sorcerer since beta, many of us have. We feel your pain...

Guys, something about this quitting attitude rubs me wrong. Here I find myself wanting to make a Redguard Stamina Sorcerer too, and occasionally go out there and pvp with my Orc Stam Sorcerer, and for sure my formerly v16 Altmer Sorcerer. Sorcerer is just going through a rough patch. If I could deal with a lot of the bs on my Templar for so long, surely you can hang in there with your Sorcerer. Have fun with it, do missions and story. If you don't feel it performs as well in pvp or trials or the like, don't play it there. Lets see some more can-do attitude though. IF anything you can slot all non-class skills if it makes you feel better (though you might want to at least slot a couple in class skills). Will it be the best build ever? No, but you can run it in Hew's bane or Gold Coast just fine. Honestly, the end isn't here.

Brrrofski · June 2016

Something needed to be done about shields. This wasn't the answer. Harness and hardened stacking should stopped, left harness as just magica shield. That would have been fine. Because fighting a sorc on any other magica character was more hassle than it was worth.

I do find it hilarious though when stam NBs complain about sorcs. Like, do they realise how broken op their class has been for the last few patches? I turned mine into a sap tank because hit bad hide was incredibly dull in pvp. Stupidly easy though.

Faulgor · June 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Really not liking my stam sorc in this update. Going to reset to magicka now. Trying to find something that works without shields.

Wish me luck.

Well, I like my new setup somewhat. It's strictly solo PvE, but that's what I mainly do. Haven't really benchmarked it yet, except for soloing world bosses in Gold Coast, will try a bit of Maelstrom tonight. Only problem was that light-attack weaving with destro staffs feels horrible right now.
Main focus was to test survivability without shields, and it's pretty fun to facetank Limenauruus. And my gear was only blue CP150 for testing, so there's still a lot of room for improvement.

No big secret, just Bahraha's Curse + Surge in 5 heavy. I have Absorb Health enchantment on my back bar, but don't really need it. My other 5 piece set is Torug's Pact because I want to see how far I can push enchantments, but I'm probably better off with Julianos. With better quality gear I might also be able to drop Bahraha's, but it looks pretty sweet.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

I didn't name my sorcerer "Muscle Mage" in an obscure language just for him to wimp out at the first sign of danger.

I like it.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · June 2016

fosokles wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

I adapted by going to another game.

/thread

Go away bad player that can only play on a godmode class. xD

In what universe is an Argonian magicka NB godmode class? I mean just by playing Argonian you already chose the hard mode .

Playing a NB makes up for any race choice, really. They're just broken OP. xD

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · June 2016

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

I dunno man. do you typically have someone hold your *** for you while you *** IRL?.

So the fact that i don't particularly like having to rely on someone else to keep me alive is contemptible, hmm?. heard that argument before, don't care for it.

lmaol and a 6-10 second shields with surge and a healer and you're still dying?

Surge couldn't keep you alive anymore against pretty much anything. But at least you can reroll a NB and just keep most of the group alive spamming one attack over and over.......

Azurya · June 2016

LoL, I play a StaminaSorc, Imperial Race and I am not facing any Problems so far in the new DLC!
To be true, she got even stronger and this as well in PvP as in PvE.
She makes so much dmg, it is almost scary, and this still while she has no new gear so far.

So I don´t understand that much what others have for problems with their sorcs, but I still think that it was my best decision ever to migrate her from magicka-based to stamina-based with the ThievesGuild-DLC.
Yes and now she runs along with DW and Bow bar, so what? She does her job and provides tons of DPS!

Septimus_Magna · June 2016

The list with sorcerer problems is so long I dont even know where to begin.

First of all, its beyond ridiculous that the classes named Sorcerer isnt able to cast an instant dmg ability. This is the first class that should be considered for a direct (preferably ranged) dmg ability. Instead, all other classes have spammable dmg abilities and sorcs are ignored with the excuse that not all classes should have the same type of skills.

The lack of a spammable dmg ability wouldnt be such a problem if sorcs would have something to make up for it (Force Pulse is a decent instant dmg ability). Right now, the class skills that sorcs use for pve dps are very limited. The high-end dps parses usually shows Liquid Lightning, Crystal Frags and Mages Fury from the execute phase. Im not considering Overload because thats only useful for short duration fights and you've stored 1000 ultimate.

The useful class dps skills also have their limitations.
Liquid Lightning has a small aoe radius, short duration and is only useful if the target isnt moving.
Crystal Frags needs to proc and is hard to weave with, its mainly good for burst dmg.
Mages Fury has an awfully long delay and the lowest health proc percentage of all the executes in the game with 20%. There are also reports about the explosion not dealing the correct amount of dmg when it hits multiple targets.

Sorcs dont have a strong instant dmg abilities, only one stationary ground AOE DOT and a bad execute with the lowest health proc percentage. Compare this to DKs with good instant dmg ability, multiple DOTs and the best dmg ultimate in the game. Or compare it to Templars with good instant dmg ability (that also heals), couple good DOTs and the best execute in the game.

Dont even get me started on Surge, why the hell nerf a skill that isnt even that good to begin with to make it completely useless? If anything, that skill needed serious buffs or no cooldown for the healing effect. Maybe surge healing of Overload was over the top but that should have been addressed separately.

Heals for 40% of the dmg caused by critical hits.
Critical hits from ultimates heal for 20% of the dmg done.

Oh and at the same time that you nerf the small bit of healing sorcs get from their class skills nerf the duration of their main defense by 70%. Please ZOS use some logic, facts and players experience the next time sorc skills are changed.

Aiphaton · June 2016

Uviryth · June 2016

Reevster wrote: »

Hasn't everyone leveled a NB by now? Guess not.

I haven`t. I only have one character, my Sorcerer. Yay me I guess

Grao · June 2016

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Bluepitbull13 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

I don't run with tanks, ever. and only run with off-healers. and still can.

The problem i have with sorcs is that they where dumbed down, you don't have to build for anything.

You can still manage, you may just have to get out of your comfort zone. That's what some of the most experience players have been saying from pve/pvp for the past 9 pages

I've already said i can still do it that's not the problem.

The problem is the class is dull it's boring, the class has no verity or interesting components anymore.

It will always be dull and boring if you just sit back casting wards. How about try and go out all dps and see if that makes your sorc experience more interesting?

I don't sit back at cast wards. and i pull 30-40K dps. last i checked which was a while ago as i don't have FTC anymore.

Great, then db update won't really affect you as not one single bit of that dps has been nerfed.

Incorrect again, you are guys are talking PvP and Daedric Curse was actually heavily nerfed by no longer being affected by Thaumaturgy. But hey, I guess you can ignore changes that don't favor your point of argument, right?

Lava_Croft · June 2016

Uviryth wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

Hasn't everyone leveled a NB by now? Guess not.

I haven`t. I only have one character, my Sorcerer. Yay me I guess

Stick to your Sorcerer, it builds character to not jump ship!

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · June 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

Hasn't everyone leveled a NB by now? Guess not.

I haven`t. I only have one character, my Sorcerer. Yay me I guess

Stick to your Sorcerer, it builds character to not jump ship!

It also builds character to not play a godblade.

Knightpanther · June 2016

Look the sky's falling in again!

Sorcerer forever

Be safe

Grao · June 2016

fosokles wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Kungfu wrote: »

Check out builds by people like Nos (lol forgot his full name, been reading it as just "Nos" for so long). He's got some unconventional builds that may provide insight for interested players.

I actually checked Nos's DoT based build. It is pretty interesting specially as it uses a lightning staff which benefits from our passsives. Unfortunately that build only achieves high DPS against mobs, in a solo boss fight I believe it can only reach about 30K DPS and that is assuming the sorcerer manages to to maintain their ground targeted DoTs 100% of the time, which is not always possible.

Considering other classes can maintain sustained DPS over 40k reaching up to 50-55 k at times while bringing more group utility than sorcerers can provide with their current kit, you can't say sorcerers are competitive in PvE.

There is no class/setup in this game that can maintain 40k dps on the boss. If you see someone pulling out these kind of numbers its either because the fight is very short (~30s) or they are doing lot of splash damage to nearby ads. And as for sorcerers, good players can keep up with magplars in terms of DPS so i don't see any problems with the class. Whiny players need to get better or switch to easier classes (which is what i do constantly btw).

o.O If you search youtube for VMol fights from the best guilds you will see most classes pulling over 35k DPS to 45k DPS in what are considered long fights. So... You are just wrong on that point.

You also have been completely missing the point we've been arguing, yes, sorcerers can complete content well enough, but the simple fact is that they are not competitive when compared to the other classes. Other classes can out do sorcerers in every PvE aspect and the class has no specialty or design direction- that is a huge problem.

Because our sustain and mitigations are now so poor, sorcerers are the worse tanks in the game (and no, I am not talking dungeons here, I am talking trials and I am comparing what a sorcerer tank can offer when compared to other classes), the worse healers for our class heal is locked behind a toggle pet wall and because the sheer number of toggles we need in our bars stops sorcerer healers from having enough skill slots to play the role properly, and at the same time we are among the weakest DPS, being the bottom of the Staminay Pyramid and maybe in the middle of the magicka pyramid.

Meanwhile DKs have always been the best and most reliable tanks, Templars were always the best healers and Nbs, after they were finally fixed, became some of the best DPS, if not the best in Magicka DPS (for PvE) and the best class for PvP (Stamina). My point is, sorcerers are not the best at anything, thus there is no point in playing a sorcerer, it is a disadvantage in every role, pre DB we had one positive point, our survival skills while in Solo content and even that is now shot with Surge being nerfed into oblivion and Ward having 70% nerf to its duration while getting absolutely no compensatory buff or even a cost reduction.

And then you get into if the class is fun to play and... It no longer is. Our best skills have been shot one by one with every passing large update to the point none of them feel awesome anymore. At the same time we have an entire skill tree that is dedicated to cluttering toggles which don't even scale from champion points, thus rendering their damage quite insignificant, not to mention their survivability. Magicka sorcerers are the only DPS build with only 2 choices of spammable abilities with ZOS putting an effort into keeping them from branching out of that rigid build. Why are sorcerers the only class without such a basic ability as a spammable DD?

Not having a spammable of our own means we have no choice but to lock a fire destro staff to our main bar and yes, it has to be fire because the light and heavy attacks from fire are simply too superior when compared to the other destruction staves. We have no other choice (unless you go for Nos's DoT build, which while interesting still requires some heavy testing, specially in single target confrontation) and that is boring. ZOS and @Wrobel admits this is a problem and yet he says there are no plans to fix the problem in the near future... It is ridiculous...

And no, DB didn't affect our DPS too heavily (except in VMA, where we are far less competitive now), but the fact Zenimax took a struggling class and nerf is strongest points without giving it a single meaningful buff feels really bad. The feeling was only made worse by @Wrobel essentially laughing off our concerns, that is why so many of this threads are sprouting around the forum.

I leave you with a few quotes from our beloved developer:

Wrobel wrote: »

We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

So basically, we know there is a problem but eh... Too much of a hassle to fix it.

Wrobel wrote: »

It’s been a longstanding issue that Surge doesn’t play well with DoT builds, thus limiting the number of options for Sorcerers. Abilities such as Crushing Shock deal damage in 3 separate attacks and Flurry never procced the heal. Surge is now more effective for tank characters since it no longer scales off of damage done. These changes make surge more desirable for a wider number of builds and reduced its power when combined with Overload.

Crit based tanks... LOL.

Wrobel wrote: »

We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do.

Yeah, he wants firing a cast time heal to feel as awesome as RD... LOL again.

Grao · June 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

My main was a sorc, and this patch broke my heart. I was a sorc since beta, through buffs and nerfs. This? What they did with Dark Brotherhood made me straight up strip the gear from her, put it in the bank, and let anyone else take it. I'm normally of the philosophy of roll with the buffs and the nerfs, been that way since I started playing MMOs, but this patch is officially the one that pushed me too far to stick to that mentality.

R.I.P. Para Nostram
VR16 Bosmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
She was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood

Update your signature and join the clan @ParaNostram , I also mained a sorcerer since beta, many of us have. We feel your pain...

Guys, something about this quitting attitude rubs me wrong. Here I find myself wanting to make a Redguard Stamina Sorcerer too, and occasionally go out there and pvp with my Orc Stam Sorcerer, and for sure my formerly v16 Altmer Sorcerer. Sorcerer is just going through a rough patch. If I could deal with a lot of the bs on my Templar for so long, surely you can hang in there with your Sorcerer. Have fun with it, do missions and story. If you don't feel it performs as well in pvp or trials or the like, don't play it there. Lets see some more can-do attitude though. IF anything you can slot all non-class skills if it makes you feel better (though you might want to at least slot a couple in class skills). Will it be the best build ever? No, but you can run it in Hew's bane or Gold Coast just fine. Honestly, the end isn't here.

The difference is, your Templar, no matter how bad its DPS was for a while, it was always the best healer in the game. Meanwhile sorcerers are exactly the best at what right now?

DDemon · June 2016

I decided to stop voicing my opinion on the sorc changes awhile ago when I noticed I couldn't change Wrobels mind anyway. I mained a sorc since beta and went through good times and bad with it, I didn't use it a lot for PVP, I found I had more fun playing a stamina nightblade there.

So that basicly left my sorc for all my pve needs, in which it suited me quite well. Now with the current changes, I am not please or displeased, I just feel 'meh' about it. I will continue to play my stam NB for pvp as I have been for a long time, but for my pve needs I will simply use my new magica NB.

We can discuss how this change was bad or good for as long as we want, however, if you don't like the class anymore, why stick with it? It's still a good crafter and resource farmer. With the removal of vet ranks it became quite easy to make a new character.

Ch4mpTW · June 2016

DDemon wrote: »

I decided to stop voicing my opinion on the sorc changes awhile ago when I noticed I couldn't change Wrobels mind anyway. I mained a sorc since beta and went through good times and bad with it, I didn't use it a lot for PVP, I found I had more fun playing a stamina nightblade there.

So that basicly left my sorc for all my pve needs, in which it suited me quite well. Now with the current changes, I am not please or displeased, I just feel 'meh' about it. I will continue to play my stam NB for pvp as I have been for a long time, but for my pve needs I will simply use my new magica NB.

We can discuss how this change was bad or good for as long as we want, however, if you don't like the class anymore, why stick with it? It's still a good crafter and resource farmer. With the removal of vet ranks it became quite easy to make a new character.

Exactly why I made my Magicka Dragonknight my main, instead of my Magicka Sorcerer. I also have a Magicka Templar and Stamina Dragonknight in the works, so I think I'll be good.

My Sorcerer is gonna be my crafter, and main provider for my other characters. I have 9 traits learned with them, have almost every recipe learned with them, have all blue and gold receipts learned with them, have level 50 in all crafting trees with them. And I have every alchemy trait learned with him. So he's gonna hold it down, and act as a support for my other characters.

OrphanHelgen · June 2016

Sorcs have the hardest hitting force pulls in the game

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · June 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Sorcs have the hardest hitting force pulls in the game

So you mention a skill that is not a sorc skill and say that's a good reason they're balanced....... LOL button for you.

Lava_Croft · June 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

Hasn't everyone leveled a NB by now? Guess not.

I haven`t. I only have one character, my Sorcerer. Yay me I guess

Stick to your Sorcerer, it builds character to not jump ship!

It also builds character to not play a godblade.

Maybe if you repeat it a few more times, it becomes true!

(Hint: It won't.)

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · June 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Uviryth wrote: »

Reevster wrote: »

Hasn't everyone leveled a NB by now? Guess not.

I haven`t. I only have one character, my Sorcerer. Yay me I guess

Stick to your Sorcerer, it builds character to not jump ship!

It also builds character to not play a godblade.

Maybe if you repeat it a few more times, it becomes true!

(Hint: It won't.)

Back at you.

Just because you say sorcs aren't dead doesn't mean it's true

Go back to your godblade little baddie and don't clutter up the thread with your bs.

Kas · June 2016

i don't need you guys, i have my zoo!
feel free to come at me 2 at a time!

jokes aside, i agree the sorc nerf was HUGE in pvp and had already switched away from sorc for pve in TG

The worst thing:
Negate is the best ability now, but gets uncastable when it's really needed. 30 enemies and it's impossible to cast this ult... my char just looks like he has an epileptic seizure while i try to cast the negate

Flaminir · June 2016

DDemon wrote: »

I decided to stop voicing my opinion on the sorc changes awhile ago when I noticed I couldn't change Wrobels mind anyway. I mained a sorc since beta and went through good times and bad with it, I didn't use it a lot for PVP, I found I had more fun playing a stamina nightblade there.

So that basicly left my sorc for all my pve needs, in which it suited me quite well. Now with the current changes, I am not please or displeased, I just feel 'meh' about it. I will continue to play my stam NB for pvp as I have been for a long time, but for my pve needs I will simply use my new magica NB.

We can discuss how this change was bad or good for as long as we want, however, if you don't like the class anymore, why stick with it? It's still a good crafter and resource farmer. With the removal of vet ranks it became quite easy to make a new character.

Sadly I'm in the same boat..... following on from the answers in the Sorc Q&A I just stopped posting.... I have no faith anything will change as @Wrobel doesn't seem to understand the issues given his answers, and as you say, it's easy to make new characters now.

And far too many people on the forums who don't main sorcs don't seem to understand the problems either. Sorc's CAN complete all content... but every other class is better.... at everything..... and also more fun & interactive to play.

Its the fun & interactive play style that's the biggest thing for me. Being locked into basically one build option isn't fun, neither is having a bar full of toggles, neither is it fun to have class differentiation by just omitting basic skills from a class.... (DPS spammable, heals etc).... that's just poor design & lack of a vision, and is the most politician'esque fob off of an answer I have seen here so far if I'm honest.

I'm roleplaying it all now.... my Sorc is now retired & acting like a mafia boss... sat at the top of the tree, instructing his minions (alts) to do his bidding & funding everything from his amassed wealth & crafting ability!