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My DB sorcerer experience in Maelstrom Arena: doable yet boring.
Joy_Division
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I feel as if I should follow up on my PTS Sorcerer Surge thread since it received a lot of traffic and gets to the heart of the changes to the sorcerer class in the DB patch.
To make a long post short, in the PTS I emphasized that the sorcerer was not fun to play and it took me three miserable hours to finish Maelstrom Arena. I provided many example of the PTS Critical Surge healing for markedly less than on Live, which, coupled with the loss of the burst heal option and lower shield duration amounted to a problematic net nerf vis-à-vis the other classes. Basically, if I couldn't use a precasted shield, why would I play with sorcerer when I could play on say a templar with reliable self DPS+self healing that was designed to play without hardened ward?
So I ran my sorcerer through Maelstrom Arena and it did not take me 3 hours. I used the same build that I did on the TG and made zero concessions to the new Surge mechanic. It is important to note that ZoS buffed the flat damage on Surge from the PTS. The only difference in my strategy was that I used Hardened Ward "in combat" as opposed to always having it up. It took me 85 minutes and I died 7 or 8 times. Pre-patch, I'd do it in about 70 minutes with maybe 2 deaths. In light of such, I have to amend what I wrote in the PTS. My experience on DB was not miserable and Surge is not "completely inadequate." Those sorcerer players who are frustrated with the DB patch might not want to hear this, but I can't just lie. Judging from the leaderboard, other sorcerers who did vMA probably had the same experience as I did: scores are not as high, nevertheless we are finishing it without as much frustration as anticipated. It is what it is.
This does not mean my overall opinions on sorcerers have changed though. I still have a huge problem with the concept of flat numbers in a fluid and changing game and to get that score I still had to slot a class shield, felt compelled to grab power sigals at certain times, and, importantly, I could simply ignore a lot of mechanics by spamming Overload which is ridiculously over-effective in instances such as vMA. I can get that same score on my Templar without slotting a shield and using sub-optimal ultimates ill-suited for this content. It just means that someone with the Flawless Conqueror achievement can make do with the new Surge (to be fair, it was buffed a bit from the PTS) and finish Maelstrom in a reasonable amount of time. Of course, I have such experience in vMA to fall back upon.
Some comparisons:
TG Live Maxus the Many:
PTS Maxus the Many:
DB Live Maxus the Many:
TG Live Control Guardian
PTS Control Guardian:
DB Live Control Guardian
TG Live Champion of Atrocity:
PTS Champion of Atrocity:
DB Live Champion of Atrocity:
TG Live Argonian Behemoth:
PTS Argonian Behemoth:
DB Live Argonian Behemoth:
And a chart:
Boss 1:
Boss 2:
Boss 3:
Boss 4:
Boss 5:
Boss 6:
Boss 7:
Boss 8:
In all, heals are somewhere in-between what there were pre-patch and on the PTS. Some people may have scoff the percentage buff Surge got since the PTS, but the chart shows it is real and perhaps significant. Going on the all too unreliable indicator of how these heals "felt," I would say most of the time they, in conjunction with hardened ward, were able to sustain me decently enough such that I usually did not feel the need to spam shields. Most of the time. If this was ZoS's objective, I cannot say they failed because it is possible. It should, however, be pointed out that a NB or say templar can sustain themselves just about all of the time without requiring a class shield.
In short, ZoS seemed to have made enough tweaks such that Surge is "adequate." Since they did so when my PTS feedback claimed it was "inadequate," it is only right I acknowledge this. I thus cannot say that sorcerers should be retired or just not played until the next patch. If you like your sorcerer and are worried or frustrated over these changes, while I do not agree with ZoS's decisions, it's not so bad that you should just stop playing. Instead I think you should play and direct your feedback to other areas of the class where ZoS is agreeable to change such that the class might be fun and competitive to play with the surge and shield changes that, for now at least, seem like they are here to stay.
Think about it. If I and others are getting 400,000+ scores on vMA, it is objectively difficult to argue that ZoS needs to revert these change simply because it's taking us 10 or 15 extra minutes or so to do.
With that in mind, these are two general observations I would forward to ZoS:
Firstly, my experience on the PTS *was* miserable and that cannot be just chalked up to having a bad day or bad luck. The numbers I posted were real, I tried it multiple times, and I immediately afterward logged on to Live and the difference was night and day. ZoS, if you want good feedback, you need to give us the proper tools to test. That means giving us the option for 501 champion points. That is what I have on Live so how in the world do you expect me to judge the merits of your changes if I have to run two entirely different builds? I am never going to test anything again on a 301 point CP build because the data and impressions I get from that are going to be totally different than on Live.
Secondly, it is now clear to me a lot of that frustration on the PTS was due to testing some of your new gear sets that are just bad. It made me think about those people on these forums who write down what once seemed to me are exaggerations, such as some sorcerers saying they have trouble surviving in PvE without shields. I have come to think this is less due to L2P issues and am more inclined to think these are probably very real experiences due to the consequence of running sub-optimal gear. A lot - in fact most - of the gear in this game is just bad and people who do not take the time to study or analyze it are probably making poor build decisions and struggling when they ought not to be. ZoS really ought to make an effort such that most of the gear is at least passable so players are not getting themselves killed due to their misplaced trust in Zenimax. ZoS is so quick to nerf stuff that is moderately useful, yet do nothing to the dozens and dozens of sets that are bad. Unless you spend a fair amount of time studying and keeping up with these changes, it is highly likely your build is losing thousands and thousands of DPS and leading to unnecessary frustrations.
As far as my specific feedback for sorcerers, these are my main complaints:
After playing the Elder Scrolls Online for two years, I have to and hate to say it, but the game is kind of stale at the moment. In all this time, I am using the exact same skills I did back in April 2014. No new abilities, no new skill lines, even those skills that were somewhat useful back then in a totally different meta (like Dark Exchange) still perform the same function that is now obsolete. The game is in desperate need of more options and nowhere is that more apparent than the sorcerer class where competitive options are already so limited.
To make a long post short, in the PTS I emphasized that the sorcerer was not fun to play and it took me three miserable hours to finish Maelstrom Arena. I provided many example of the PTS Critical Surge healing for markedly less than on Live, which, coupled with the loss of the burst heal option and lower shield duration amounted to a problematic net nerf vis-à-vis the other classes. Basically, if I couldn't use a precasted shield, why would I play with sorcerer when I could play on say a templar with reliable self DPS+self healing that was designed to play without hardened ward?
So I ran my sorcerer through Maelstrom Arena and it did not take me 3 hours. I used the same build that I did on the TG and made zero concessions to the new Surge mechanic. It is important to note that ZoS buffed the flat damage on Surge from the PTS. The only difference in my strategy was that I used Hardened Ward "in combat" as opposed to always having it up. It took me 85 minutes and I died 7 or 8 times. Pre-patch, I'd do it in about 70 minutes with maybe 2 deaths. In light of such, I have to amend what I wrote in the PTS. My experience on DB was not miserable and Surge is not "completely inadequate." Those sorcerer players who are frustrated with the DB patch might not want to hear this, but I can't just lie. Judging from the leaderboard, other sorcerers who did vMA probably had the same experience as I did: scores are not as high, nevertheless we are finishing it without as much frustration as anticipated. It is what it is.
This does not mean my overall opinions on sorcerers have changed though. I still have a huge problem with the concept of flat numbers in a fluid and changing game and to get that score I still had to slot a class shield, felt compelled to grab power sigals at certain times, and, importantly, I could simply ignore a lot of mechanics by spamming Overload which is ridiculously over-effective in instances such as vMA. I can get that same score on my Templar without slotting a shield and using sub-optimal ultimates ill-suited for this content. It just means that someone with the Flawless Conqueror achievement can make do with the new Surge (to be fair, it was buffed a bit from the PTS) and finish Maelstrom in a reasonable amount of time. Of course, I have such experience in vMA to fall back upon.
Some comparisons:
TG Live Maxus the Many:
PTS Maxus the Many:
DB Live Maxus the Many:
TG Live Control Guardian
PTS Control Guardian:
DB Live Control Guardian
TG Live Champion of Atrocity:
PTS Champion of Atrocity:
DB Live Champion of Atrocity:
TG Live Argonian Behemoth:
PTS Argonian Behemoth:
DB Live Argonian Behemoth:
And a chart:
Boss 1:
- TG: 2,158 HPS. 4,089 Avg. 13,527 Max.
- PTS: 914 HPS. 2,708 Avg. 3,275 Max.
- DB: 1,340 HPS. 4,131 Avg. 4,672 Max.
Boss 2:
- TG: 1,831 HPS. 5,138 Avg. 16,693 Max.
- PTS: 1,319 HPS. 2,946 Avg. 3,275 Max.
- DB: 2,011 HPS. 4,347 Avg. 4,673 Max.
Boss 3:
- TG: 1,726 HPS. 5,421 Avg. 11,458 Max
- PTS: 1,039 HPS. 2,797 Avg. 3,275 Max.
- DB: 1,780 HPS. 4,056 Avg. 4,673 Max
Boss 4:
- TG: 2,069 HPs. 4,914 Avg. 16,126 Max.
- PTS: 1,191 HPS. 2,733 Avg. 3,275 Max.
- DB: 1,151 HPS. 3,931 Avg. 4,673 Max.
Boss 5:
- TG: 1,681 HPS. 3,732 Avg. 11,592 Max.
- PTS: 1,243 HPS. 2,872 Avg. 3,275 Max.
- DB: 1,568 HPS. 4,126 Avg. 5,840 Max.
Boss 6:
- TG: 1,440 HPS. 3,414 Avg. 11,512 Max.
- PTS: 1,285 HPS. 2,843 Avg. 3,275 Max
- DB: 1,351 HPS. 4,110 Avg. 4,673 Max.
Boss 7:
- TG: 2,127 HPS. 4,528 Avg. 11,263 Max.
- PTS: 914 HPS. 2,849 Avg. 4,092 Max.
- DB: 1,701 HPS. 4,148 Avg. 5,840 Max.
Boss 8:
- TG: 2,545 HPS. 4,794 Avg. 17,467 Max.
- PTS: 1,206 HPS. 2,902 Avg. 3,275 Max.
- DB: 2,011 HPS. 4,136 Avg. 4,673 Max.
In all, heals are somewhere in-between what there were pre-patch and on the PTS. Some people may have scoff the percentage buff Surge got since the PTS, but the chart shows it is real and perhaps significant. Going on the all too unreliable indicator of how these heals "felt," I would say most of the time they, in conjunction with hardened ward, were able to sustain me decently enough such that I usually did not feel the need to spam shields. Most of the time. If this was ZoS's objective, I cannot say they failed because it is possible. It should, however, be pointed out that a NB or say templar can sustain themselves just about all of the time without requiring a class shield.
In short, ZoS seemed to have made enough tweaks such that Surge is "adequate." Since they did so when my PTS feedback claimed it was "inadequate," it is only right I acknowledge this. I thus cannot say that sorcerers should be retired or just not played until the next patch. If you like your sorcerer and are worried or frustrated over these changes, while I do not agree with ZoS's decisions, it's not so bad that you should just stop playing. Instead I think you should play and direct your feedback to other areas of the class where ZoS is agreeable to change such that the class might be fun and competitive to play with the surge and shield changes that, for now at least, seem like they are here to stay.
Think about it. If I and others are getting 400,000+ scores on vMA, it is objectively difficult to argue that ZoS needs to revert these change simply because it's taking us 10 or 15 extra minutes or so to do.
With that in mind, these are two general observations I would forward to ZoS:
Firstly, my experience on the PTS *was* miserable and that cannot be just chalked up to having a bad day or bad luck. The numbers I posted were real, I tried it multiple times, and I immediately afterward logged on to Live and the difference was night and day. ZoS, if you want good feedback, you need to give us the proper tools to test. That means giving us the option for 501 champion points. That is what I have on Live so how in the world do you expect me to judge the merits of your changes if I have to run two entirely different builds? I am never going to test anything again on a 301 point CP build because the data and impressions I get from that are going to be totally different than on Live.
Secondly, it is now clear to me a lot of that frustration on the PTS was due to testing some of your new gear sets that are just bad. It made me think about those people on these forums who write down what once seemed to me are exaggerations, such as some sorcerers saying they have trouble surviving in PvE without shields. I have come to think this is less due to L2P issues and am more inclined to think these are probably very real experiences due to the consequence of running sub-optimal gear. A lot - in fact most - of the gear in this game is just bad and people who do not take the time to study or analyze it are probably making poor build decisions and struggling when they ought not to be. ZoS really ought to make an effort such that most of the gear is at least passable so players are not getting themselves killed due to their misplaced trust in Zenimax. ZoS is so quick to nerf stuff that is moderately useful, yet do nothing to the dozens and dozens of sets that are bad. Unless you spend a fair amount of time studying and keeping up with these changes, it is highly likely your build is losing thousands and thousands of DPS and leading to unnecessary frustrations.
As far as my specific feedback for sorcerers, these are my main complaints:
- They are boring to play. I don't care about not having a spammable DPS skill. It's fine. I can get them elsewhere. What I do care about is that many of my skills are boring buffs/toggles and the DPS skills outside my class are either gone (Trapping webs), overly nerfed (Impulse), or just poor (Fire Rune). Their best ability, the Overload ultimate, is just pew-pew-pew. Compare that to DK leap ...
- I have always rolled a summoner every single RPG I have ever played ... except The Elder Scrolls Online. Every patch brings more changes to pets and yet, I have zero interest in using them. They are very underwhelming to say nothing of requiring two precious ability slots to use (even though they are somehow not toggles). That Storm Atronach ZoS wants me to waste 200 ultimate to use ... it still has the same stats, health, resistance, and damage that it did way way way back when 10K DPS was considered very good, right? Why can't I cast a summon that is on a timer in the middle of a zerg that actually does something more than the lightning flood I could use instead?
- Cookie-cutter syndrome. Whether in vMA, PvP, or DPSing dailies, there is hardly any variety to the sorcerers I see and fight against.
- I am jealous of what NPC sorcerers can do. Molag Kena's spinning lighting short ranged attack? Gimme that. The teleport lightning PBAOE? Please let me do that. The necromancers summoning dead? I'd put real money. The Ice Shield that blocks everything? Now we're talking defense. How is there not a chained lightning spell in this game?
- A sorcerer needs to be able to use swords for something other than an artificial means of increasing their spellpower. The developers of ZoS have played other TES games and familiar with bound weapons, yes? Look at all the stamina sorcerer players nodding their heads in agreement.
After playing the Elder Scrolls Online for two years, I have to and hate to say it, but the game is kind of stale at the moment. In all this time, I am using the exact same skills I did back in April 2014. No new abilities, no new skill lines, even those skills that were somewhat useful back then in a totally different meta (like Dark Exchange) still perform the same function that is now obsolete. The game is in desperate need of more options and nowhere is that more apparent than the sorcerer class where competitive options are already so limited.
Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
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Archmage1✭✭✭Well said. Sorcs as a whole need a major overhaul for them to be viable compared to other classes in both PvE and PvP. Most importantly, make them fun again.1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If you really want to get mad at the game, try solo or small scale PVP. I mean really play, without zerging as part of a 50 man herd and bragging about your 100 "kills" where you managed to get 1 shot in on some poor guy before the mob obliterates him.
It's the most disappointing and frustrating experience in the game. Period.
So far group PVE and pledges are about the same roughly, but they seriously screwed up Cyrodiil for us.
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NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Joy_Division
"How is there not a chained lightning spell in this game?"
I Agree. Imagine if fury/wrath procced directly onto another enemy/player if you killed the initial target? One morph still gives back magic, the other can jump to two players instead of one.
There is definitely one sorcerer class skill, that is the least used by players, that can be replaced with something else people will actually use.
Also, thank you for the honesty. It demonstrates you're about improving the class and not just about proving you're "right" about your observations.
Fear is the Mindkiller2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So you preformed worse, could have done better - more easily - with any other class, key moves are "adequate"
Are you telling me you didn't feel awesome after using dark exchange?3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the key is magplar + magblade can perform the same job easier/safer (without needing a shield that everyone has access to now) AND playing them is actually fun compared to a sorc.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am glad to hear we can still complete VMA without a Restoration Staff, I have to admit I didn't go in to test the changes my self for after getting the weapon I needed from VMA I promised my self I wouldn't do it again. End Game PvE Solo content is boring. >.>
Boring content is made even worse by a boring class... In that we are in the same place for sure @Joy_Division , I don't know at what point, but sometime last year Zenimax managed to drain the fun out of playing a sorcerer magicka DPS and this last patch squeezed the last few drops of the lemon by nerfing our few skills that still felt 'strong'.
The fact two years later, after having a blast leveling my character to lvl 50 by using my pets, pets are still so underwhelming... It is hard to comprehend. I remember my sadness when I went to face Molag Bal with my little clannfear and my friendly twilight matriarch and both pets got obliterated in a second... I was so sad and I get the same heartbreak every time I decide to log into my sorcerer and test my pets in a raid... Even when they don't die right away, their DPS is so lackluster, specially the Tormentor's which is supposed to be the strong single target DPS pet...
Tell me about being jealous of the NPC sorcerers though, I may not be jealous of Necromancy, but seriously... That Ice Shield you mentioned... I've been drooling over that since my character was level 6. And the Lightning Chain that false advertisement sorcerer in the game cinematic use... I wish the Heavy Attack for Overload was anything like that.
As for the Atronach... Such a disappointing effect and damage is only made worse by how awesome that spell looks. It is such a shame and wasted potential.Edited by Grao on June 3, 2016 9:13PM2 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you really want to get mad at the game, try solo or small scale PVP. I mean really play, without zerging as part of a 50 man herd and bragging about your 100 "kills" where you managed to get 1 shot in on some poor guy before the mob obliterates him.
It's the most disappointing and frustrating experience in the game. Period.
So far group PVE and pledges are about the same roughly, but they seriously screwed up Cyrodiil for us.
Ha ha ha... the type of play you describe is the story of my life! Crawling the IC sewers as a solo Sorc has turned me into the nastiest person I know, and that's nothing to brag about. These "OP" Sorcs that everyone complains about exist in some other version of ESO that I've never played.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
Digiman✭✭✭✭✭The post Joy_Division pretty much sums up what's going to happen next patch, that sorcerers will need to have patch dedicated to an overhaul.
It infuriates me that this will take 6 months to fully address, they should be making class balances a weekly deal.1 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »After playing the Elder Scrolls Online for two years, I have to and hate to say it, but the game is kind of stale at the moment. In all this time, I am using the exact same skills I did back in April 2014. No new abilities, no new skill lines, even those skills that were somewhat useful back then in a totally different meta (like Dark Exchange) still perform the same function that is now obsolete. The game is in desperate need of more options and nowhere is that more apparent than the sorcerer class where competitive options are already so limited.
Spellcrafting, please safe us.
Good post. I'm currently experimenting with heavy armor Sorcs, just to try something out of the cookie cutter builds. I think there's some potential.
Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »So you preformed worse, could have done better - more easily - with any other class, key moves are "adequate"
Are you telling me you didn't feel awesome after using dark exchange?
Concise and insightful. An excellent synopsis.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2