Cuyler wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

And it's funny how most of the people feeling entitled to rewards without actually running the content are... people not running said content.

You can't have everything, get good or get over it, instead of trying to discourage the few people doing that content from doing it.

This is your opinion, and what I would go as far as to say is the "oldschool" way to go about it. IMO, I'd be more encouraged to run these instances if I could sell more of the gear.

It is the "oldschool" way of things.

I grew up playing World of Warcraft, how they did gear & gear progression in vanilla/TBC was perfect. I am chasing after gear when I go do content, if there is no gear because I already bought it I don't do content - simple as that. Many people share the mindset.

Worth noting is that after WoW started handing out epic gear like candy (aka "welfare epics"), decline of population quickly followed. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

Cuyler wrote: »

"the few people doing the content", should be your clue that there is a problem. It's not because of L2P issues for a lot of people, it's that the BOP system simply doesn't encourage as many players as you assume to run content anymore, well except for the masochists.

There are a lot of people attempting to do the content, few people actually doing it - is what I meant to say.

The few people actually completing the content won't be doing it if the rewards aren't worth it.

Once for achievements & that's it.


If you still can't see why gear grinds are necessary for longevity of MMOs then I don't know what to tell you.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

Let's be real here. The only reason people are against a system in which they profit the most, is because they will cease to be special snowflakes under that system. ESO's itemization is not like a typical MMO. Making things BOE wouldn't decentivize people from running content, and you know that. Every argument against BOE gear is a thinly veiled attempt to remain a special snowflake without actually saying it.

Thinly veiled? I want to remain different than other players because I managed to do something in game that they didn't. I'm not hiding the fact - it makes perfect sense.

I proudly display my accomplishments in game, as long as they mean something.


ESO's itemization is dumbed down, but that doesn't mean it needs to get worse.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Everything should be BoE, no exceptions. There's not a single compelling reason to make gear BoP.

How about: having to actually complete that difficult content?

The gear is there as a reward for being a skilled player capable of overcoming difficult feats - not for picking up flowers all day & having a crap ton of gold.

Some players simply dont have the time/skill to run vMA 50 times to get the sharpened fire staff.

Picking rare flowers worth 300g each doesnt compare to gear that sells for 100k a piece.
Players that get the rare items will become richer because they dont have to buy it and can sell what they dont use.

And what exactly is wrong with that some people dont have the time/skill to clear vMSA?

If you can't do it, train, get better - don't complain about players who put in more effort & demand to get the same things they do. That's insulting towards the players who put in all that time to beat the challenges.


There's no room for communism in video games.

Very nice attempt to equate a system you don't like with a political and economic ideology most of the world has negative feeling towards. However, I believe the economic system in which people are allowed to obtain monetary gains from their hard work and good fortune is called Capitalism.

Sorry, but a world where everyone is equal & has the exact same gear sounds much more like communism.

You know it just as well as I do, if the trials gear was to become BoE, then everyone who plays this game atleast a couple of hours a day would get it. Grinding money is ridiculously easy, most people I know are millionaires in game.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

@DDuke: Are you still as proud of your accomplishments when you take into account the fact that you had no trouble exploiting things like dual Mundus bug to "stay competitive" and will probably exploit other bugs, because you want to "use every tool at your disposal"?
You can act all high and mighty here and display your pride about your accomplishments, but they just don't look that good when compared to your ethical standards.

There's still no compelling reason brought up to not make every single piece of gear BoE.

And who said pve'ers don't like pvp? Dat forum pvp is almost as entertaining as the alliance war, who knew the general forums could be so entertaining!

@Ajax_22

Please, keep making assumptions about me & my levels of understanding and whatnot. I understand that these kind of ad hominem attacks are in fashion when losing an argument in the internet - but don't worry, I take no offense- rest assured I find them entertaining.

And yes, when they add Arenas/Battlegrounds to PvP I hope they have BoP gear tied to leaderboards, since that is competitive content and requires some skill (unlike spamming mutagen in some resource tower).

Lava_Croft wrote: »

@DDuke: Are you still as proud of your accomplishments when you take into account the fact that you had no trouble exploiting things like dual Mundus bug to "stay competitive" and will probably exploit other bugs, because you want to "use every tool at your disposal"?
You can act all high and mighty here and display your pride about your accomplishments, but they just don't look that good when compared to your ethical standards.

There's still no compelling reason brought up to not make every single piece of gear BoE.

Oh, most certainly - as long as it's not against the rules

And I can come up with over a dozen reasons why both BoP & BoE gear are essential to a game's well-being.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@Ajax_22

Please, keep making assumptions about me & my levels of understanding and whatnot. I understand that these kind of ad hominem attacks are in fashion when losing an argument in the internet - but don't worry, I take no offense- rest assured I find them entertaining.

And yes, when they add Arenas/Battlegrounds to PvP I hope they have BoP gear tied to leaderboards, since that is competitive content and requires some skill (unlike spamming mutagen in some resource tower).

Lava_Croft wrote: »

@DDuke: Are you still as proud of your accomplishments when you take into account the fact that you had no trouble exploiting things like dual Mundus bug to "stay competitive" and will probably exploit other bugs, because you want to "use every tool at your disposal"?
You can act all high and mighty here and display your pride about your accomplishments, but they just don't look that good when compared to your ethical standards.

There's still no compelling reason brought up to not make every single piece of gear BoE.

Oh, most certainly - as long as it's not against the rules

And I can come up with over a dozen reasons why both BoP & BoE gear are essential to a game's well-being.

Will you list them for me please?

Sure.

1. Bing on Pickup items provide reasons for the more hardcore player base to keep playing, rather than just purchasing everything immediately & being done with the game.
2. MMOs that have started handing out "welfare epics" have historically done poorly afterwards (e.g. World of Warcraft).
3. Bind on Pickup serves as an incentive to do dungeons for new players (rather than just skip it with the 400-500k you earn by doing 1-50, Silver & Gold content).
4. Bind on Pickup also makes the experience of looting more enjoyable - the moment when you get rare piece of loot you need is something most players don't forget. Note: RNG system of this game needs improvements though.
5. Bind on Pickup maintains diversity in the character builds of the player base. It means that not everyone is wearing the same sets, because someone might not have got one they need yet.
6. Bind on Pickup might enable progression raiding to perhaps exist one day. By progressive raiding I mean: requirements of certain level of hard to get gear from lower tier content to even have a chance at completing the harder content.
7. Bind on Equip sets are necessary to stimulate the economy.
8. Bind on Equip also means you can get a steady foundation from which you can start working towards the BoP sets you might need.
9. Bind on Equip enables crafting to exist as a social activity.
10. Bind on Equip gear serves as a monetary reason to run some content/grind mobs for the less hardcore players who don't have millions of gold and might actually still need it.
11. Bind on Equip allows PvPers to earn money.

Ok, almost a dozen

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Please, keep making assumptions about me & my levels of understanding and whatnot. I understand that these kind of ad hominem attacks are in fashion when losing an argument in the internet - but don't worry, I take no offense- rest assured I find them entertaining.

And yes, when they add Arenas/Battlegrounds to PvP I hope they have BoP gear tied to leaderboards, since that is competitive content and requires some skill (unlike spamming mutagen in some resource tower).

Lava_Croft wrote: »

@DDuke: Are you still as proud of your accomplishments when you take into account the fact that you had no trouble exploiting things like dual Mundus bug to "stay competitive" and will probably exploit other bugs, because you want to "use every tool at your disposal"?
You can act all high and mighty here and display your pride about your accomplishments, but they just don't look that good when compared to your ethical standards.

There's still no compelling reason brought up to not make every single piece of gear BoE.

Oh, most certainly - as long as it's not against the rules

And I can come up with over a dozen reasons why both BoP & BoE gear are essential to a game's well-being.

Will you list them for me please?

Sure.

1. Bing on Pickup items provide reasons for the more hardcore player base to keep playing, rather than just purchasing everything immediately & being done with the game.
2. MMOs that have started handing out "welfare epics" have historically done poorly afterwards (e.g. World of Warcraft).
3. Bind on Pickup serves as an incentive to do dungeons for new players (rather than just skip it with the 400-500k you earn by doing 1-50, Silver & Gold content).
4. Bind on Pickup also makes the experience of looting more enjoyable - the moment when you get rare piece of loot you need is something most players don't forget. Note: RNG system of this game needs improvements though.
5. Bind on Pickup maintains diversity in the character builds of the player base. It means that not everyone is wearing the same sets, because someone might not have got one they need yet.
6. Bind on Pickup might enable progression raiding to perhaps exist one day. By progressive raiding I mean: requirements of certain level of hard to get gear from lower tier content to even have a chance at completing the harder content.
7. Bind on Equip sets are necessary to stimulate the economy.
8. Bind on Equip also means you can get a steady foundation from which you can start working towards the BoP sets you might need.
9. Bind on Equip enables crafting to exist as a social activity.
10. Bind on Equip gear serves as a monetary reason to run some content/grind mobs for the less hardcore players who don't have millions of gold and might actually still need it.
11. Bind on Equip allows PvPers to earn money.

Ok, almost a dozen

1. False. Making the gear BoE provides the hardcore player base a reason to run content after they have their gear.

How can you write something like this, then accuse me of not knowing the playerbase

As I said you don't understand this game's player base or economy. Most of the players in this game struggle to maintain 100K gold. To most people gold does not come easy, and everything is not cheap.

I happen to be in one of the 4-5 guilds that have completed vMoL, and as far as I know there is not a single person in any particular need of gold. I've never heard anyone complaining about BoP gear either.

In which hardcore PvE guild did you play again?... Hypocrisy at its finest. If you knew what I did for a living, you'd be pretty ashamed of that economy comment as well.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

2. WoW seems like it's still doing perfectly fine to me.

WoW lost more than half its subscribers after it started handing out welfare epics & overall casualizing the game. How is that fine by any standards?

Ajax_22 wrote: »

3. There are plenty of other incentives to do dungeons for new players. Undaunted, skill points, lore books.

Yes, I've already got all the gear from them - the only reason I enter them is to grind Undaunted on my remaining 4 max level characters. You are correct that there are other incentives as well, but please dont list skill points & lorebooks - there are much easier ways of getting those than running dungeons.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

4. That's your personal opinion that is not shared by a majority of the community.

Oh, so you represent the majority now? This is getting interesting

Ajax_22 wrote: »

5. That's a terrible way to create build diversity.

That is your personal opinion and is not shared by a majority of the community.

See what I did there?

Seriously though, it is the way that almost every single MMORPG out there has taken. Good luck finding one that doesn't have BoP gear.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

6. Unfortunately this game was not built for progression raiding nor will it happen. At least until ES:VI comes out, and ZOS is forced to rebrand the game to maintain a profit.

"Unfortunately", I think you forgot the quotation marks to reflect your true feelings about the matter. And unless you're a developer, you can't really tell what will happen.

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Please, keep making assumptions about me & my levels of understanding and whatnot. I understand that these kind of ad hominem attacks are in fashion when losing an argument in the internet - but don't worry, I take no offense- rest assured I find them entertaining.

And yes, when they add Arenas/Battlegrounds to PvP I hope they have BoP gear tied to leaderboards, since that is competitive content and requires some skill (unlike spamming mutagen in some resource tower).

Lava_Croft wrote: »

@DDuke: Are you still as proud of your accomplishments when you take into account the fact that you had no trouble exploiting things like dual Mundus bug to "stay competitive" and will probably exploit other bugs, because you want to "use every tool at your disposal"?
You can act all high and mighty here and display your pride about your accomplishments, but they just don't look that good when compared to your ethical standards.

There's still no compelling reason brought up to not make every single piece of gear BoE.

Oh, most certainly - as long as it's not against the rules

And I can come up with over a dozen reasons why both BoP & BoE gear are essential to a game's well-being.

It's not a personal attack. It's a simple statement of fact. If you actually believe trial gear being BoE equates to communism. Then you have absolutely no understanding of the translation of real world economics into a virtual world. Like wise if you think "if the trials gear was to become BoE, then everyone who plays this game atleast a couple of hours a day would get it." is actually true. Then you have no understanding of this game's player base or economy.

That is not what I asked. I asked if you think the PvP gear from the boxes should be BoP. I'm going to assume that since you completely avoided my question that your answer is no. Why not? The time investment in getting that gear is just the same, if not more, than farming normal MoL to get a set of the BoP gear.

Please share with us your reasons why BoP gear is good for this game.

I see. Perhaps another fact is eluding you: gold has no real value in this game. Everything is cheap, gold comes easily. You can grind flowers for one or two days and that's enough gold to buy anything you need. It might as well not exist.

At this point, you're just sharing things around for the sake of "equality" - thus communism.

Some pleb picking up flowers gets the same things as the highly skilled players who dedicate their lives to this game - thus communism.

And I believe I answered regarding the box gear: spamming mutagen in some tower requires absolutely no skill whatsoever. I don't care if they make box gear BoP or not, but on that basis it doesn't have to be BoP.

Meanwhile, I'd be pretty pissed if BGs/Arenas were added and someone was selling the "Grand Master Arena Gear" to some plebs who have never even played PvP.

As I said you don't understand this game's player base or economy. Most of the players in this game struggle to maintain 100K gold. To most people gold does not come easy, and everything is not cheap.

It takes about the same skill level to beat normal MoL as it does to spam Mutagen in a zerg. Both things reward the same level of gear. So why should one be BoP but not the other?

I wouldn't give a damn if people where able to by the hardcore arena/BG gear. In fact I'd be happy I could sell it to people so that I can still earn rewards after I'm geared out.

I doubt I'd really care if normal MoL dropped BoE CP150 gear (PvP gear is CP160), that can indeed be completed by anyone.

But if you think veteran MoL & mutagen spamming in a zerg are somehow comparable in terms of difficult, then I invite you to prove that ridiculous claim.

---

And @Lava_Croft , you can stop being salty about me farming you on my Templar

Just know that I agree with the last portion of your post:

BoP gear locks items behind a wall of grind that randomly rewards someone for completing content once, while not rewarding someone else for completing the same content 50 times. BoP gear exist outside of the economy, contributing nothing to that part of the game except the sale of upgrading materials.

This is why a token system or group loot system should be implemented for the majority of PvE content, the RNG is just downright frustrating sometimes.

DDuke wrote: »

The gear is there as a reward for being a skilled player capable of overcoming difficult feats - not for picking up flowers all day & having a crap ton of gold.

Only if crafting mats become BoP as well so *you* can't buy stacks of mats for your end-game gear because you were running dungeons all day and couldn't be bothered to pick up flowers.