Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesceb16_ESO if I'm not mistaken, major brutality can be gained with potions, which renders a skill for the same purpose a dps loss.

Bow is OP for pvp, but only good for providing extra dots in pve or if the overall dps of group is too low for nuking during bossfights such as The Planar Inhibitor, so you have to follow mechanics and bow comes in handy there.

In that boss i apply the poison injection DoT and than spam 27k snipes + power of the light, not the Best but Still a decent dps for a bow user

I'm actually curious, what is your avarage dps on single target bosses with that combo?

Most dedicated bow users I've met lay between 4k-14k and I've met a few who could pull 25k+ in avarage. I don't know wether it is a gear, l2p or build issue to why most lack dps.

Bow users in my guild end up changing weapon and build once they reach endgame levels, reroll a new char or change to tank and healer roles. I sort of lack information to help or guide them on this part, and seing specifically bow users follow this pattern leaves me a bad feeling.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesceb16_ESO if I'm not mistaken, major brutality can be gained with potions, which renders a skill for the same purpose a dps loss.

Bow is OP for pvp, but only good for providing extra dots in pve or if the overall dps of group is too low for nuking during bossfights such as The Planar Inhibitor, so you have to follow mechanics and bow comes in handy there.

You can't be serious here snipe is one of the most predictable and countetable skills in the game. You shouldn't even be killed by it if you run full impen/dmg shields.

Wait what ..I never mentioned snipe.

...and how do you counter something you are unaware of? Many bow users like keeping distance and sneaking. Magelight needs to be spammed if you want to keep it up constantly, and you also have to avoid sieging and mounting.

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesceb16_ESO if I'm not mistaken, major brutality can be gained with potions, which renders a skill for the same purpose a dps loss.

Bow is OP for pvp, but only good for providing extra dots in pve or if the overall dps of group is too low for nuking during bossfights such as The Planar Inhibitor, so you have to follow mechanics and bow comes in handy there.

In that boss i apply the poison injection DoT and than spam 27k snipes + power of the light, not the Best but Still a decent dps for a bow user

I'm actually curious, what is your avarage dps on single target bosses with that combo?

Most dedicated bow users I've met lay between 4k-14k and I've met a few who could pull 25k+ in avarage. I don't know wether it is a gear, l2p or build issue to why most lack dps.

Bow users in my guild end up changing weapon and build once they reach endgame levels, reroll a new char or change to tank and healer roles. I sort of lack information to help or guide them on this part, and seing specifically bow users follow this pattern leaves me a bad feeling.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesceb16_ESO if I'm not mistaken, major brutality can be gained with potions, which renders a skill for the same purpose a dps loss.

Bow is OP for pvp, but only good for providing extra dots in pve or if the overall dps of group is too low for nuking during bossfights such as The Planar Inhibitor, so you have to follow mechanics and bow comes in handy there.

You can't be serious here snipe is one of the most predictable and countetable skills in the game. You shouldn't even be killed by it if you run full impen/dmg shields.

Wait what ..I never mentioned snipe.

...and how do you counter something you are unaware of? Many bow users like keeping distance and sneaking. Magelight needs to be spammed if you want to keep it up constantly, and you also have to avoid sieging and mounting.

You didn't mention it but what bow skill can actually kill people? Snipe. Also like I said wear full impen or put shields up and you would take crit dmg at all.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Idea for a new bow skill:

Skill name: Rapid fire
Range: 28m
Target: single target
Cast time: 1.3 sec

Description: shower you opponents in a hail of 5 deadly arrows dealing X physical dmg each arrow.

Morph 1: concussion shots

New effect: snares for 40% for 5 secs also grant a chance for knock down for each arrow, (4% for each hit)

Morph 2: Piercing fire

New effect: increased dmg and arrows now ricochet to near by targets for half the dmg

Snipe(and morphs) can be a "bow ultimate" it could cost 75 ultimate.

I wouldnt make it an aoe skill. The bow already has that covered. Id make at least one of the morphs purely dps focused. Id go with something like:

Barbed barrage
Fire multiple arrows in quick succession at your foe. The arrows have barbed tips shredding the targets flesh and applying a bleed for 10 seconds. Following uses of the skill refresh the effect's duration without resetting it.

Or a bit more fancy:
The arrows have barbed tips embedding themselves in the targets flesh and causing him physical damage for every action taken in the next 10 seconds. Following uses of the skill refresh the effect's duration without resetting it.

Lysette wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Nirnrotten wrote: »

@Lysette I thought I read somewhere that flurry will have multiple chances to apply poison effect. That still wouldn't be as OP as with volley tho. Can you imagine poisoning an entire group with one volley?? Let's wait till DB goes live. I'm on PS4 so I don't have access to PTS but I'm gonna try it.

Now imagine a group of archers, which target a zerg with AoE bow effects and poisons, this would be as successful as english long bow archers in the past. I just wish that this would lead to getting zergs busted.

Now imagine that zerg with bows :P This is a problem - how can you make a tool that wrecks zergs but cant be used by them to wreck smaller groups even faster than now.

Actually I gave a couple of options, in which this Zerg thing could be addressed - even seen from a roleplay perspective. I suggested for example to bind the effectiveness of spells and weapon usage to the computational effort required to resolve the interactions related to this zerg - the higher the computation effort would be, the less effective spells and weapons get. This would rather quickly make zergs highly undesireable - problem solved - it is that simple, but it takes the will to do it.

Edit: and the roleplay reasoning behind it - people get in the way of each other and perform less well, if they are too near to each other.

And yet we know from history of huge armies operating very efficienty.

An army is different from a zerg - a zerg is just a ball of people who are not moving in an orderly manner nor do they coordinate their attacks. This more like a bunch of afraid guys, who stick together like a swarm of fish to gain safety in numbers while getting more healing and dealing more damage at the same time.

This is as well not about the roleplay side, even I can argue with it - this is about the key problem of cyrrodil lag - zergs combined with AoE spam is causing it - and to solve these issues, zergs must be made undesirable. There are several options to do it, with the easiest to just use the problem at hand (too much server effort required) to scale down the damage done and healing received of a zerg, so that it is undesirable - and voila problem would be gone, Cyrrodil could be enjoyable again.

Ill be honest with you, I dont quite agree with this solution but I wont be addressing it - I dont want the thread to be derailed. Bows need some attention.

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Tonnopesceb16_ESO wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesceb16_ESO if I'm not mistaken, major brutality can be gained with potions, which renders a skill for the same purpose a dps loss.

Bow is OP for pvp, but only good for providing extra dots in pve or if the overall dps of group is too low for nuking during bossfights such as The Planar Inhibitor, so you have to follow mechanics and bow comes in handy there.

In that boss i apply the poison injection DoT and than spam 27k snipes + power of the light, not the Best but Still a decent dps for a bow user

I'm actually curious, what is your avarage dps on single target bosses with that combo?

Most dedicated bow users I've met lay between 4k-14k and I've met a few who could pull 25k+ in avarage. I don't know wether it is a gear, l2p or build issue to why most lack dps.

Bow users in my guild end up changing weapon and build once they reach endgame levels, reroll a new char or change to tank and healer roles. I sort of lack information to help or guide them on this part, and seing specifically bow users follow this pattern leaves me a bad feeling.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Tonnopesceb16_ESO if I'm not mistaken, major brutality can be gained with potions, which renders a skill for the same purpose a dps loss.

Bow is OP for pvp, but only good for providing extra dots in pve or if the overall dps of group is too low for nuking during bossfights such as The Planar Inhibitor, so you have to follow mechanics and bow comes in handy there.

You can't be serious here snipe is one of the most predictable and countetable skills in the game. You shouldn't even be killed by it if you run full impen/dmg shields.

Wait what ..I never mentioned snipe.

...and how do you counter something you are unaware of? Many bow users like keeping distance and sneaking. Magelight needs to be spammed if you want to keep it up constantly, and you also have to avoid sieging and mounting.

Actually... I dont know.

But i can tell you my equip, 5 brianhert rings, nek everything robust VR 16 and wd enchant + 2armor, 1kena, 5 hounding 4 armor + weapons (bow and 2h sword) , wd enchant.

Is a really hard to play build Since you will have 16k healt.
Every armor pcs is divines

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Idea for a new bow skill:
Skill name: Rapid fire
Range: 28m
Target: single target
Cast time: 1.3 sec
Description: shower you opponents in a hail of 5 deadly arrows dealing X physical dmg each arrow.
Morph 1: concussion shots
New effect: snares for 40% for 5 secs also grant a chance for knock down for each arrow, (4% for each hit)
Morph 2: Piercing fire
New effect: increased dmg and arrows now ricochet to near by targets for half the dmg
Snipe(and morphs) can be a "bow ultimate" it could cost 75 ultimate.

Ridiculous, imo.
Bow light attacks do that.

The skill Draining shot could use more love, but that aside, the bow line is good as it is.
Has good cc / snares, with nice aoe, a really good DoT, and a rather fine heavy hitter. What else do people want ?

Lenikus wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Idea for a new bow skill:
Skill name: Rapid fire
Range: 28m
Target: single target
Cast time: 1.3 sec
Description: shower you opponents in a hail of 5 deadly arrows dealing X physical dmg each arrow.
Morph 1: concussion shots
New effect: snares for 40% for 5 secs also grant a chance for knock down for each arrow, (4% for each hit)
Morph 2: Piercing fire
New effect: increased dmg and arrows now ricochet to near by targets for half the dmg
Snipe(and morphs) can be a "bow ultimate" it could cost 75 ultimate.

Ridiculous, imo.
Bow light attacks do that.

The skill Draining shot could use more love, but that aside, the bow line is good as it is.
Has good cc / snares, with nice aoe, a really good DoT, and a rather fine heavy hitter. What else do people want ?

What is the heavy hitter? Also if you ever played GW2 the ranger class has a skill called rapid fire an it would function like rapid strikes.

Btw the only thing bow users want is a spammable ranged dps skill like detro staves have. Is that too much to ask?

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Idea for a new bow skill:
Skill name: Rapid fire
Range: 28m
Target: single target
Cast time: 1.3 sec
Description: shower you opponents in a hail of 5 deadly arrows dealing X physical dmg each arrow.
Morph 1: concussion shots
New effect: snares for 40% for 5 secs also grant a chance for knock down for each arrow, (4% for each hit)
Morph 2: Piercing fire
New effect: increased dmg and arrows now ricochet to near by targets for half the dmg
Snipe(and morphs) can be a "bow ultimate" it could cost 75 ultimate.

Ridiculous, imo.
Bow light attacks do that.

The skill Draining shot could use more love, but that aside, the bow line is good as it is.
Has good cc / snares, with nice aoe, a really good DoT, and a rather fine heavy hitter. What else do people want ?

What is the heavy hitter? Also if you ever played GW2 the ranger class has a skill called rapid fire an it would function like rapid strikes.

Btw the only thing bow users want is a spammable ranged dps skill like detro staves have. Is that too much to ask?

You have Snipe as spammable-dps-ability. If you want more sustained DPS you need DoTs. Another spammable won't change anything.

GreenhaloX wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing. I like the rapid fire concept.. much like the thousand cuts from Dragon Age Inquisition.

Anyone knows? Aside from the norm gold lvl bow that has 1332 Dps and without adding other extra damage traits, is there a stronger bow in this game? Maybe given as reward for completing a dungeon or other trial or something? I saw a female monster hunter yesterday, can't recall the name, has a bow that looks way much stronger than mine. Just looking at it, you can just tell that has to be some elite type bow. Every time she pulls it, the bow just purge in strength with some golden charge aura. It wasn't flame, frost or shock aura. The arrows from her scourge look like lightning arrows as it rains down. Definitely look likes it could do some serious damages.

DPS=/= Wepdmg, don't get confused with this

I think the skill you mention is arrow barrage/scorched earth, maybe with amaelstromebow. Looks rly nice tbh.

As i said, Bow doesn't need anything. It already got a passive that increases your weapon damage with heavy attacks, so it's already better off than it was.

Further changes would make it more viable to be a stand alone setup, but then if they do that, it'll only make the bias 2h / bow WAY more mandatory in pvp, because of the extra dot's or whatever they add to bow.

(the heavy hitter , bread and butter spamamble dps, was the Snipe, to specify, dots are poison injection, and acid spray and volley to an extent)

Posted this in another thread and I still think it holds true:

Personally I would like only a few changes that I believe will make bow much more competitive as a primary weapon for both PVE and PVP.

Make Scatter Shot a knock down as well as knock back.
Make the Long Shots passive give 12% damage(its current buff for range) when over 15-20m distant and 8% armor penetration when under that range.
Make Snipe more direct and responsive, shorter flight time + shorter cast time, adjust damage as necessary.



Bow's are unnecessarily powerful as ganking weapons and incredibly weak in close range. With purges and the strength scaling on shields and heals DOT effects are mostly negligible. Poison Injection only begins to matter when the targets health is low. If ZOS doesn't want ganking they simply need to adjust the damage scaling on attacks from stealth although that would be a direct nerf to Bosmer and Khajit racial passives.

Personally I have an excellent ganking build I use in PVP but I would rather be able to compete better in more open combat than be able to virtually one shot players from stealth. Bows can compete as primary weapons for DPS but require certain setups they are not an any class weapon and require a lot of attention to detail.

They do have significant weakness' though that make them undesirable for open combat in PVP. I have not found many players who perform well as DPS with bows. The primary issue though is not the bows output itself but how well the bow's leading skills support and synergize with DW/2h, while the same cannot be said in reverse.

Lenikus wrote: »

As i said, Bow doesn't need anything. It already got a passive that increases your weapon damage with heavy attacks, so it's already better off than it was.

Further changes would make it more viable to be a stand alone setup, but then if they do that, it'll only make the bias 2h / bow WAY more mandatory in pvp, because of the extra dot's or whatever they add to bow.

(the heavy hitter , bread and butter spamamble dps, was the Snipe, to specify, dots are poison injection, and acid spray and volley to an extent)

So what you're saying is bow shouldn't be a stand alone weapon? It should just be a back up weapon wow.

Also 2h/bow will be come mandatory? You must be a fotm meta player because that's not the only way to pair the bow. I rune dw/bow in a stam NB so I don't use rally and my only way of major brutality is from flying blade or potions and guess what, it works just fine.

bow does NOT need a dmg buff, it needs a spammble dps skill. You said mentioned the new bow passive (hawk eye) this is true but you can't weave on LA/HA woth snipe to get sufficient dps that's like LAing in between Crystal blast I mean is that even practical?

My guess is you and @Destruent don't even use bow as a main hand its just an off hand utility weapon for you guys to use poison injection/volley and that's great for your build but for my build it's just not practical to spam snipe in duels or 1vX. Think outside the box here in all situations where bow preforms not just behind a zerg or in a dungeon group where it's fine.

Destruent wrote: »

You can light attack between snipes...you can light attack between all skills...
Why would you want to use the bow in a duell where you are usually forced to melee? It's a ranged weapon, and yoiu actually have to be at range to perform well with a bow as main weapon.

Btw. most builds use 2 different sets of weapons, why should bow be different?

Why wouldn’t you use bow in duels? You can use destro staff. Sorcs preform just fine in melee range with a staff why can't bows?

No most fotm builds run 2 different sets but you don't have to. Ive seem double dw builds double SnB builds Etc. So you're wrong if your argument is saying bow shouldn't be a weapom that support it self because every other weapon skill line can funtion on its own while bow REQUIRES a melee weapon to be useful.

Destruent wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You can light attack between snipes...you can light attack between all skills...
Why would you want to use the bow in a duell where you are usually forced to melee? It's a ranged weapon, and yoiu actually have to be at range to perform well with a bow as main weapon.

Btw. most builds use 2 different sets of weapons, why should bow be different?

Why wouldn’t you use bow in duels? You can use destro staff. Sorcs preform just fine in melee range with a staff why can't bows?

No most fotm builds run 2h/bow but you don't have to. Ive seem double dw builds double SnB builds Etc. So you're wrong if your argument is saying bow shouldn't be a weapom that support it self because every other weapon skill line can funtion on its own while bow REQUIRES a melee weapon to be useful.

Why does it require a melee weapon to be usefull in your opinion?
I dodn't say, that it shouldn't work on its own. But you are most effective when you combine different weapons. Atleast in most cases

It requires a melee weapon because you can't kite with a bow and using one in melee range is suicide since snipe is slow dodgeable and predictable, destro staff can do well in melee range though since it has a quick dps skill.

Yeah, I for one run a Dw/Bow set up, but when I pull out my bow I literally handicap myself using it offensively when I could just DW and be better off....

Nirnrotten wrote: »

I remember getting huge hits from snipe while crouched. It was insane to the point of it being unfair. No one should be able to do that much damage from that far away...and from stealth. Ever since then ZOS has been leery of making a hard hitting bow skill.

ZOS should introduce different bow types. You have the short bows, capable of firing many shots per second at a lower damage per shot. Then you should have the long bows, that let you sit back at range and fire very very damaging shots, but at a far slower fire rate. Then they just need to change one of the bow passives to something similar to dual wield/2h so that using different types of bows gives different bonuses(long bows could get a critical damage bonus, while short bows could get something like a poison bonus, or a bleed bonus or something).

Voila, two different playstyles introduced without allowing people at range from suffocating melee.


Also, side note: every single player I've seen who prefers a melee archetype has complained about how people at "range" get it better. It sounds like you just wanna play range, lol.