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Give me an example of why creating bags are pay to win?
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
They don't, not even if reality is stretched and twisted they still do not.
The only purpose these threads to is provide entertainment to the majority of us, watching the small minority try to explain why the bag should not be exclusive to subs.
Been very entertaining.0 -
hydrocynus✭✭✭✭✭Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »if I'm in a thread about "Is it weird that the Earth has lots of water?" and out of 100+ replies I see one person that says: "the Earth is flat nub". I'm not going to create a new thread saying "How is the Earth flat?" hoping that the person sees it and knowing full well that it's not flat and there's no logical discussion to be had.
Wait... what ? It's not
Also, everyone is conveniently avoiding the real issue here.
Are said crafting bag gonna be made in Khajiit sweatshops ? Because, in that case, I would like the option to not have them, in case I decide to subscribe.
Also, assuming they're gonna be made without oppressing poor kitteh, are they going to be locally produced by local artisans?
Because, in that case, I want to be able to directly support them. Is ZOS going to give us the option or are they going to exploit some poor kittens in some "farm" as they call them in Morrowind ?
As OP I fully support the Tangent of discussion this part suggests. Some serious issues there.My internet is invalid0 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭By the divines... you people are being purposefully obtuse. That's the only explanation that makes sense.
The bags are NOT pay to win or anything of the sort. They are an example of ZOS placing a FIX to a broken system behind a subscription. It's shady and it's manipulative.
@Gidorick
With 8 toons all master crafter, 160+ slots on each toon + maxed bank slots, I dont see anything broken with the current system. Pray tell what is exactly broken? Yeah it takes a little time moving between toons to get what I need done, but that's just a matter of convenience. Sometimes I toss out stuff that's obsolete or really common such as the basic trait/style stones to make space for some new shiny stuff I find along the way but that's totally cool. I can get those stuff for like a stack of 200 for like 100 gold or something via trader.
@Vangy , ZOS needs to also consider the player who has one character with no inventory upgrades. Sure, upgrading inventory is a part of the game so that mechanic is important to keep intact, but telling someone who doesn't have a bunch of alts and maxed out inventories that the solution is to get alts and max out their inventories isn't exactly a solution, nor is it helpful to that player.
@Gidorick, I'm not really interested in helping people who refuse to use already in game ways to help themselves. How is maxing out inventory space not a solution to not having inventory space?
It is logic like this that gets things nerfed and leaves nothing to work for in this game.
Dungeons too hard for my heavy armor and bow healer? Nerf it, I don't want to learn how to play!
Too much AP needed for PvP skills? Nerf it, it isn't fair that I have to play the game to get stuff.
Completely not upgraded bank and bags full on my one character? I deserve crafting bags, because I don't want to upgrade my bank, bags or use any of the other 7 character slots to improve my inventory!
Come on, man. We can't always keep pandering to the lowest common denominator, can we? It is destroying any kind of challenge or accomplishment in this game.PC/EU DC1 -
rotaugen454✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It obviously isn't pay to win, but it sure is convenient. I will continue my sub because of the bag. If it goes on sale, I cancel my sub, buy just the DLC that I really want, and the bag. It's as simple as that. ZOS knows they will lose subbers if it goes on sale in the crown store, but can get quick sales. Their financial analysts will project which way nets more, and that is what they will do."Get off my lawn!"0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭rotaugen454 wrote: »It obviously isn't pay to win, but it sure is convenient. I will continue my sub because of the bag. If it goes on sale, I cancel my sub, buy just the DLC that I really want, and the bag. It's as simple as that. ZOS knows they will lose subbers if it goes on sale in the crown store, but can get quick sales. Their financial analysts will project which way nets more, and that is what they will do.
It'll definitely drum up business but I think it'll trail off after the initial boost, many are already planning on only subbing for the months they need to put items in so maybe it won't be the cash cow zo$ thinks it will.0 -
hydrocynus✭✭✭✭✭
I think they would be happy with that. It's 13 euros (or whatever it is) they would not have had otherwise from that player.Edited by hydrocynus on May 25, 2016 2:14PMMy internet is invalid0 -
dtm_samuraib16_ESO✭✭✭✭
Pay to win right here: You can only bag it if you sub!SlayerTheDragon wrote: »Let's put this topic in the bag now.
We can put this topic and all the others in my crafting bag as I will have soooooo much room come May 31st??
Earthdawn Game Master Role Play Quotes by me:
"If it looks like a bear, if it feels like a bear, smells and tastes like a bear, then be VERY aware, it could be something ENTIRELY different..."
"Be careful what you wish for, you might get plenty of it..."0 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
They aren't, OP.hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
But it seems to be "all the rage" lately to; find something that a game offers for sale, then claim it's "P2W" simply because a person disagrees with it being sold or as a perk for subscribing.
The crafting bag in no way affects in-game play, nor does it give anyone an advantage in game play over people who don't sub.
Therefore, it's not "P2W".
I'm not going to name-N-shame, but there are certain people who disagree with the idea of a Cash Shop so much, that they try to claim that anything in the CS is "P2W"... it's childish, really.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!0 -
hydrocynus✭✭✭✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
They aren't, OP.hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
But it seems to be "all the rage" lately to; find something that a game offers for sale, then claim it's "P2W" simply because a person disagrees with it being sold or as a perk for subscribing.
The crafting bag in no way affects in-game play, nor does it give anyone an advantage in game play over people who don't sub.
Therefore, it's not "P2W".
I'm not going to name-N-shame, but there are certain people who disagree with the idea of a Cash Shop so much, that they try to claim that anything in the CS is "P2W"... it's childish, really.
100% agreeMy internet is invalid0 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
@hydrocynus
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
-in PvP having immediate access on any character to an unlimited amount of materials saves a ton of time, as well as prevents you from needing to hop in and out of campaigns to use the IC crafting stations.
-in PvP any character can grab nodes and add to your main characters stash
-in PvP buying mats from PvP vendors automatically goes to the bag using tel var stones or what not vs having to manage bank and alts
-in PvE having immediate access on any character to an unlimited amount of materials saves a ton of time, as well as prevents you from needing to hop in and out of players, zones, instances, trading, mailing, listing in Guild Stores
-in PvE any character can grab nodes and add to your main characters stash
-in either the removed requirement to buy mount and bank upgrades as well as player bag upgrades for inventory slots.
Its only convenient if everyone can do it. See, these bags aren't that, they are literally not available unless you subscribe which requires use to "pay" for them.
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Skitttles✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »This is one of the unfortunate sides of the P2W term. It gets thrown around even when it does not apply.
Agreed.Easy, you PAY zose your hard earned cash for something of no real life value. They WIN. P2W derp
Not what P2W is. Derp.
I don't think you got the joke...Skittles | DC Stem Sok and sumtimes Nertbled0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »
Pay to win right here: You can only bag it if you sub!SlayerTheDragon wrote: »Let's put this topic in the bag now.
We can put this topic and all the others in my crafting bag as I will have soooooo much room come May 31st??
And that's a huge stretch of the imagination. I think people are pulling this card out as a desperate distraction. The crafting bags are not P2W by any stretch. Laughable.1 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
@hydrocynus
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
-in PvP having immediate access on any character to an unlimited amount of materials saves a ton of time, as well as prevents you from needing to hop in and out of campaigns to use the IC crafting stations.
-in PvP any character can grab nodes and add to your main characters stash
-in PvP buying mats from PvP vendors automatically goes to the bag using tel var stones or what not vs having to manage bank and alts
-in PvE having immediate access on any character to an unlimited amount of materials saves a ton of time, as well as prevents you from needing to hop in and out of players, zones, instances, trading, mailing, listing in Guild Stores
-in PvE any character can grab nodes and add to your main characters stash
-in either the removed requirement to buy mount and bank upgrades as well as player bag upgrades for inventory slots.
Its only convenient if everyone can do it. See, these bags aren't that, they are literally not available unless you subscribe which requires use to "pay" for them.
None of this will help you kill someone in PvP or do more dps in a dungeon, so please stop trying to stretch the definition of P2W to include saving time and hassle. It is a convenience item for those who sub. Nothing more. If you want the convenience, then sub.Edited by Luigi_Vampa on May 25, 2016 3:53PMPC/EU DC0 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
And none of that is "Pay to Win".NewBlacksmurf wrote: »hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
@hydrocynus
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
-in PvP having immediate access on any character to an unlimited amount of materials saves a ton of time, as well as prevents you from needing to hop in and out of campaigns to use the IC crafting stations.
-in PvP any character can grab nodes and add to your main characters stash
-in PvP buying mats from PvP vendors automatically goes to the bag using tel var stones or what not vs having to manage bank and alts
-in PvE having immediate access on any character to an unlimited amount of materials saves a ton of time, as well as prevents you from needing to hop in and out of players, zones, instances, trading, mailing, listing in Guild Stores
-in PvE any character can grab nodes and add to your main characters stash
-in either the removed requirement to buy mount and bank upgrades as well as player bag upgrades for inventory slots.
Its only convenient if everyone can do it. See, these bags aren't that, they are literally not available unless you subscribe which requires use to "pay" for them.
Pay to Win only applies to items/abilities that are sold in a cash shop that gives a person an unfair advantage over players who do not purchase, and even then is only advantageous in PvP combat or gives an unfair advantage when facing the mobs in PvE.
So a player has access to all of their crafting mats when visiting a crafting station. So what?
It gives a subscription player no combat advantage over an un-subbed player.
It gives a subscription player no advantage in PvE over an un-subbed player.
It doesn't even allow a subscription player to craft items that an un-subbed player cannot craft. The subscription player still needs to have the mats in the first place.
This is not "P2W", and to try to keep arguing that it is P2W is just... well, it's ignorant.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!1 -
dtm_samuraib16_ESO✭✭✭✭Well, P2W should be here: P2U: Pay to Use.
THAT would be a correct statement.Earthdawn Game Master Role Play Quotes by me:
"If it looks like a bear, if it feels like a bear, smells and tastes like a bear, then be VERY aware, it could be something ENTIRELY different..."
"Be careful what you wish for, you might get plenty of it..."0 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I feel like, as we moved forward in the history of online gaming, the meaning of "P2W" was lost along the way.
Maybe there has been a while since people played a Korean P2W grindfest and they forgot.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.2 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
They aren't, OP.hydrocynus wrote: »How do they make you more powerful in PVP?
How do they make you more powerful in PVE?
What advantage do they give you that will make you win in those situations that makes them classed as pay to win?
But it seems to be "all the rage" lately to; find something that a game offers for sale, then claim it's "P2W" simply because a person disagrees with it being sold or as a perk for subscribing.
The crafting bag in no way affects in-game play, nor does it give anyone an advantage in game play over people who don't sub.
Therefore, it's not "P2W".
I'm not going to name-N-shame, but there are certain people who disagree with the idea of a Cash Shop so much, that they try to claim that anything in the CS is "P2W"... it's childish, really.
Agreed, it;s usually the same people who claim the game is now F2P since it launched on consoles and went B2P.2 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Still only convenience. The crafting bags don't make your crafted gear stronger, nor does it allow you to craft something that a non-sub could not. You just have to go to the bank, or summon your banker. How horrible!PC/EU DC3 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
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Not true.clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.2 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.
Having infinite inventory capacity is not a competitive advantage?
It's you who is desperate here. You don't even make any sense.0 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
No, it's not.clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.
Having infinite inventory capacity is not a competitive advantage?
It's you who is desperate here. You don't even make any sense.
A subscription player still cannot craft anything that an un-subbed player cannot craft.
It gives no advantage over an un-subbed player in PvP.
It gives no advantage to the subscription player over the PvE obstacles.
It is only for Crafting Mats, it isn't "infinite inventory capacity".
This in no way fits into the definition of "Pay to Win".
Edited by Uriel_Nocturne on May 25, 2016 4:21PM
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.
Having infinite inventory capacity is not a competitive advantage?
It's you who is desperate here. You don't even make any sense.
Listen to yourself. You may find it humorous.
I have no reason to be desperate. I am getting the crafting bag. Looking forward to it. Lol.Edited by idk on May 25, 2016 4:22PM2 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.
Having infinite inventory capacity is not a competitive advantage?
It's you who is desperate here. You don't even make any sense.
Listen to yourself. You may find it humorous.
I have no reason to be desperate. I am getting the crafting bag. Looking forward to it. Lol.
I am an ESO+ sub too. That doesn't make it any less p2w.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This in no way fits into the definition of "Pay to Win".
Can you explain how infinite crafting inventory is not an advantage when you are selling crafting services?
Edited by clocksstoppe on May 25, 2016 4:26PM0 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
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Because a person with the Bag cannot craft anything that an un-subbed player cannot craft.clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.
Having infinite inventory capacity is not a competitive advantage?
It's you who is desperate here. You don't even make any sense.
Listen to yourself. You may find it humorous.
I have no reason to be desperate. I am getting the crafting bag. Looking forward to it. Lol.
I am an ESO+ sub too. That doesn't make it any less p2w.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This in no way fits into the definition of "Pay to Win".
Can you explain how infinite crafting inventory is not an advantage when you are selling crafting services?
If it gave you the ability to craft the uber-super-secret-special-007 armor set along with your subscription, then it might start scratching the surface of P2W.
But let's be honest. If you're going to be selling your Crafting services as an un-subbed player, are you really not going to have plenty of materials in your bank already?
It gives no advantage to overcome in-game obstacles/challenges that an un-subbed player doesn't also have access to. The situation you are trying to blow out of proportion is so niche, so small, that it will affect no game in any way. It won't even prevent you from selling your crafting services.
Therefore, not P2W.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!3 -
Luigi_Vampa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »clocksstoppe wrote: »If you want to sell crafting services you are at a huge disadvantage against anyone with the bag, thus pay2win.
Very huge stretch of the imagination with a complete twist of what P2W means.
P2W is when being able to buy something in th cash shop ( even via sub) that increases ones competitive advantage in combat in a game.
Additionally, storage is a convenience and still a huge stretch of the imagination to consider it P2W by any means.
This is just grabing at straws in desperation.
Having infinite inventory capacity is not a competitive advantage?
It's you who is desperate here. You don't even make any sense.
Listen to yourself. You may find it humorous.
I have no reason to be desperate. I am getting the crafting bag. Looking forward to it. Lol.
I am an ESO+ sub too. That doesn't make it any less p2w.Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
This in no way fits into the definition of "Pay to Win".
Can you explain how infinite crafting inventory is not an advantage when you are selling crafting services?
If the point of this game was to build the best crafting business, you might have a point. Crafting is just one way to get money, and the crafting bag just lets you craft with less hassle. It doesn't let you craft better gear. Nobody is going to say "looking for a crafter for light julianos, must have craft bags!"PC/EU DC2 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm more curious how people are winning at this game.
How do you win?"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
If you're going to be selling your Crafting services as an un-subbed player, are you really not going to have plenty of materials in your bank already?
There is not enough space without the crafting bag to have all types of mats.0 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
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Still not P2W, and you're really stretching now...clocksstoppe wrote: »Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »
If you're going to be selling your Crafting services as an un-subbed player, are you really not going to have plenty of materials in your bank already?
There is not enough space without the crafting bag to have all types of mats.
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!0
This discussion has been closed.