The Philosophy of RNG and its reception by the ESO player base

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2016

dwemer_cog11 wrote: »

dpencil wrote: »

The point is, there are ways to allow players more control over what they receive, be lore friendly, and most importantly, positively encourage and reward repetition of content.

Funny, but what you are proposing serves just the opposite

You have done vMA or WGT/ICP 100 times - and havn't got what you wanted. So, you are "forced" to do it one more time.
That's a repetition of content. Yes, it is frustrating but the fact remains.

Now imagine you can run vMA or WGT/ICP 20 times and get what you want via "token" system. You will stop doing them as soon as it happens, because those "token" will be a dead weight.

What if you get your item on your 3rd run from RNG? Wheres the repetition of content then? Not only is someone getting rewarded for no effort with RNG, someone else is on the other end of the spectrum not getting his/her reward after 200 runs.

Also, you dont seem to grasp whats being proposed. The idea here is to CAP how much rng can screw you over. You say: 'now imagine you can run vMA or WGT/ICP 20 times and get what you want via "token" system'. But why 20? Make it 40 or 50. Its up to the devs to decide on the number. They can check their metrics and calculate how many runs it takes on average to get the most desired items and then set the price accordingly. The point is to make it a fixed number you can work towards. If you get lucky before that - great, if you dont, you at least have the goal in sight and dont feel cheated.

Arethan09 · August 2016

Thank you for this Post, it is great.

Quit playing ESO for exactly the RNG.
If i wanted to play a Trading Card game i would play it.

Arethan09 · August 2016

dpencil wrote: »

Greetings @MSchroeder, @Wrobel, @ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, ESO dev team and community!

My hope is that this post will be reviewed seriously by the dev team, and if a dev could please respond, it would be greatly appreciated! I do believe I have proven my thesis and offered a reasoned solution based on elements already in the game. If you've read this entire post, thank you for taking the time to do so!

.

@MSchroeder, @Wrobel, @ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, ESO dev team and community!

You have a dedicated Player here, who is trying out to reach you and there is not even a response to it.

27 Awesome 5 Agrees and 2 Insightfuls and still no official answer.

Please take you Playerbase serious and respond.

I quit this game because i felt not respected even though I loved it but the screams against the complete RNG were not heard and it continous to be considered as your best idea.

Please guys Please consider this idea and give out of respect for this man an answer

shadelon · August 2016

My philosophy on rng is it is a concept shared by all mmos. No matter what mmo you play you have to deal with crappy rng, it's part of mmo life. But in this day and age people want immediate gratification and not put in the work, so either way it's a lose-lose. What can you do? *sighs*

mobicera · August 2016

@dpencil
Well thought out and cognizant arguments, I sincerely hope this post and idea's presented within your arguments are reviewed and considered for implementation.

Arethan09 · August 2016

shadelon wrote: »

My philosophy on rng is it is a concept shared by all mmos. No matter what mmo you play you have to deal with crappy rng, it's part of mmo life. But in this day and age people want immediate gratification and not put in the work, so either way it's a lose-lose. What can you do? *sighs*

Work? You mean... actual work?
Here is a normal persons life: 8 - 9 hours of WORK 2 hours of eating resting whatsoever. Afterwards.eventually a girlfriend boyfriend husband wife children.

All in all time to play: 2 hours WITH LUCK.

So excuse me if i tell you but work is the real life my friend. Then in a GAME i want to log.in and enjoy the crap out of it... not getting frustrated time and time.again. and if the autor.of.the thread is right a 1/100 chance of what you want is too much. So please ZOS like in my previous posts i urge. Dont try to.reinvent the wheel all.the time. Sometimes old stuff is cool.and well.designed.

Carbonised · August 2016

The RNG is getting out of hand.

It is tragi-comic that the devs call the RNG lottery 'fun' while so many of the players keep lamenting on it.

Apparently players and devs have vastly different ideas on what is considered 'fun'.

The recent increase in monster set drops fom chests, as well as the tradable-in-group feature for bound items is at least the devs conceding that people really, really don't like this absurd RNG lottery.

I've been doing pefect sacraments the last 5 days and gotten no motif, today I couldn't care less, did it without completing any additional objectives, got my inferior reward container and found a motif inside.
Is this your idea of 'fun' or 'rewarding'?

You need to face the fact that people dont want your RNG lottery. The OP has several fine suggestions on how you could gte rid of it and add something that feels more like progress and achievement.

I'm sick and tired of all the RNG in this game, and I haven't even stepped foot in MA yet.

sebban · August 2016

Great post! I hope ZOS will listen (doubtful).

The loot RNG in this game is one of the worst parts. I get gear I don't want, I get gear in wrong traits, it's BS.

Instead of fixing the core problem, ZOS tries to bandaid it, first by changing traits but it doesn't change the fact that there are maybe 2 traits per piece armor or weapon that are wanted, and secondly made BOP tradable within the group (actually a good change).

Fix the core problem with RNG upon RNG upon RNG instead!

There is NOTHING "fun" with the RNG. It's only frustrating.

wolfxspice · August 2016

this game needs a token system, i hope the listen to you.

Leandor · August 2016

The only problem with RNG in this game is that players experience it from only their own point of view and Zenimax only evaluates it from an "averaged over the whole population" point of view.

Thus, while the larger, averaged view is perfectly fine, the individual's experience is completely different. It results in some getting what they want almost immediately and some never get it.

RNG needs to be individualized. It needs to be x% for every individual, even if that skews the averaged result.

Draxys · August 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.

And your post appears to assume that you know that the silent majority doesn't want what the OP suggested. I hope you aren't making that mistake.

Excellent write up and ideas, and I hope the devs implement something like your suggested change.

MokiDono · August 2016

The reason for the RNG is simple. It keeps you in the game longer, so you will buy more subscribtion, crown store items, etc. While on paper, a token system would be amazing... in reality, you would have to completely rewamp the whole core gameplay mechanics for it.

You see, token systems only work in games with proper gear progression. This game has non of that. Second, without a lockout system, dedicated, and hardcore guilds could farm out best in slot gear in a week or two for the entire raiding team, which would make pursuing pve further kinda pointless for them. Because lets face it, after gearing out, and clearing the relevant content, theres nothing else to do in this game pve wise. Running weeklies would became obsolete.

They had a good idea with the WGT, ICP collectible tokens, which can work with the current gameplay, but if you wanna implement a token for item system, then you need boss lockouts per characters. But even that wouldn't slow down the process, with the whole v160 system. People are drowning in alts by now, and with the average trial length of 40 minutes (generous estimate), gearing out would be super fast with systems like DKP.

So implementing a token system is kinda far fetched... it would take an insane amount of effort and resources to do so. What would be easier is to remove useless traits from the loot tables at higher difficulties, or write a code which bases your personal drops on your build. Like no more tank drops for magicka dps, and no more magicka dps gear for stamina characters. These would be real quaility of life changes without turning the whole game upside down.

Drungly · August 2016

There's nothing wrong with small scale RNG, but the problem with this game is that there's so many useless item sets which nobody uses. Then there's the trait system layered on top of it. I'd rather have ZoS remove a lot of these sets, because the loot tables are diluted with too much crap. You should be able to modify traits of gear as well. There's absolutely no reason why you should not be able to do such a thing.

SanTii.92 · August 2016

Without reading all comments, and chiming in quicker than what I'd like to say that the problem is not that big as some wants to make it seem like.

With the addition of bop trade, a good amount of boe sets to trials, vma 100% drop rate, and particularly the smart trait drops, where mag jewelry set drop with arcane ie, we are getting to a fine spot.

Currently main problem is that divines trait is way too desirable and we need another trait. Overhaul bro vbring them on par, or we need the smart trait system expanded.

About a token system I just think would require too much resources and investment that I would rather see somewhere else.

Mush55 · August 2016

Rng is not the problem, it's the amount of layers to the Rng where the frustration starts. Getting the item is not the problem it's getting it in the correct trait, weight .....

Wayshuba · May 2017

Just want to add something here.

SWTOR tried the "fun and exciting" RNG with Command Crates in the 5.0 patch. It had a disastrous effect on the game population and ended up costing the Producer his job.

Anyone who thinks players think RNG is "fun and exciting" needs to look at the example there to see how "fun and exciting" it became for BioWare and the previous producer before they marry themselves to the concept.

LOTRO also had something similar to what ESO does now. After hundreds of runs in instances (dungeons/raids) with player still not getting anything usable the community outcry reached a crescendo - so they implemented tokens in the random drop. Then it became if you got lucky, you could still get a drop but you also got a token, so at least after so many runs you could at least buy a piece with the tokens and not feel all the effort was worth nothing.

Soleya · May 2017

shadelon wrote: »

My philosophy on rng is it is a concept shared by all mmos. No matter what mmo you play you have to deal with crappy rng, it's part of mmo life. But in this day and age people want immediate gratification and not put in the work, so either way it's a lose-lose. What can you do? *sighs*

Beating Vet Maelstrom the first time was hard work. The time after that...not so much. Took over 8 hours the first time, 2 hours the 2nd time.

So using the "you have to work hard for your stuff" theory, my first run of VMA should have given me every vMA weapon in sharpened and then after that I would just get charged 2H swords like my last 3 runs.

I agree with Arethan09, I work hard every day at work, I don't come home looking for more hard work to do in a video game.

Kesstryl · May 2017

Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that two factors behind ZoS's use of the RNG system (there are likely more) are a) to make it a struggle that few can conquer, and b) to reward grinding. For a), it has to really mean something to get a certain set or item (eg. Maelstrom weapons are out of reach of many if not most players), so those who do get them can justly feel proud.
For b), the Grind rewards (mostly) those players who are willing to spend countless hours on the small chance that they might get the piece they need - or at least start the collection. This is the lottery mentality, where studies of real-life gambling have found that the small random chance of a big payout is much more addictive than a KNOWN way of getting a sure reward. Going the RNG route means that ZoS gets to keep their number of active players up (for marketing reasons etc), instead of letting players get the gear that they want more easily, after which they would get bored, and move on to another game.

While RNG is motivating to people who have addiction tendencies, there are many people who do not have addiction tendencies, but are instead motivated by hard work, which is what a token system would cater to. I am actually turned off by RNG which makes you grind for months or years (yes some people can have atrocious luck in some MMOs). When it gets repetitive and what I'm looking for is just not there, I usually stop doing the activity. This has lead me to stop playing MMOs in the past. I would definitely be more motivated by a token system because I know that eventually with hard work I will get the item I want, and the goal will be within sight.

skyhawk002 · May 2017

dwemer_cog11 wrote: »

dpencil wrote: »

The point is, there are ways to allow players more control over what they receive, be lore friendly, and most importantly, positively encourage and reward repetition of content.

Funny, but what you are proposing serves just the opposite

You have done vMA or WGT/ICP 100 times - and havn't got what you wanted. So, you are "forced" to do it one more time.
That's a repetition of content. Yes, it is frustrating but the fact remains.

Now imagine you can run vMA or WGT/ICP 20 times and get what you want via "token" system. You will stop doing them as soon as it happens, because those "token" will be a dead weight.

I have received the items I have wanted from chests (divines this and that) but I still enjoy repeating the content despite their being no chance of a reward. Each experience for me feels uniquely different. PuGs can make normal WgT become HM and great groups can make HM become so easy it becomes boring. I choose to enjoy the same content again and again because I like what they designed. Do I enjoy the chance of no hope of the reward I desire, no. But I do repeat a lot of content regardless as a source of entertainment.

As an aside, if we do choose to implement a token system for vMA, I would want it to take into account previous attempts. If ideal weapon and trait combination is rewarded after 100 attempts. I believe the average person who has already run the dungeon 200+ times would not want to sink in an additional 100 additional tries. There are exceptions but I think most people would be tired at that point. I would like people to be able to decon equipment to receive a fair amount of tokens.

ChunkyCat · May 2017

VMA is the worst. Getting a flawless run just to be rewarded with garbage is beyond ridiculous.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · May 2017

Very well written! Thank you OP!
While yes, the gear dungeons drops are horrible, can we expand this thread to address the RNG drop rates else where in game?
Such as Mythic Cipher? It really is just that. A Myth! Lmao! It's like what? 0.00001%? If I havent seen 1 or 2 potions for sale, I would wonder if it exists at all.
Master Writs? In the housing PTS, they had a ok drop rate vs value (amount of vouchers per writ). Now. Perfect roe for 2 vouchers? And that's IF you get a writ? Legendary Improvement for 10 vouchers?
Atheric Dust? I can count on one hand the number my guild mates have found. And that's with fingers left over and covers 5 guilds!
Just my 2 septims!
Thank you for a great thread!
Huzzzah!

MornaBaine · May 2017

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Very well written! Thank you OP!
While yes, the gear dungeons drops are horrible, can we expand this thread to address the RNG drop rates else where in game?
Such as Mythic Cipher? It really is just that. A Myth! Lmao! It's like what? 0.00001%? If I havent seen 1 or 2 potions for sale, I would wonder if it exists at all.
Master Writs? In the housing PTS, they had a ok drop rate vs value (amount of vouchers per writ). Now. Perfect roe for 2 vouchers? And that's IF you get a writ? Legendary Improvement for 10 vouchers?
Atheric Dust? I can count on one hand the number my guild mates have found. And that's with fingers left over and covers 5 guilds!
Just my 2 septims!
Thank you for a great thread!
Huzzzah!

All of this. The RNG in this game overall is horrible and is why I don't even bother with a lot of the content.

Deep_01 · May 2017

If implemented, don't remove the existing RNG system too... I actually like the current grind. Gives me something to do in game.

MornaBaine · May 2017

MornaBaine wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Very well written! Thank you OP!
While yes, the gear dungeons drops are horrible, can we expand this thread to address the RNG drop rates else where in game?
Such as Mythic Cipher? It really is just that. A Myth! Lmao! It's like what? 0.00001%? If I havent seen 1 or 2 potions for sale, I would wonder if it exists at all.
Master Writs? In the housing PTS, they had a ok drop rate vs value (amount of vouchers per writ). Now. Perfect roe for 2 vouchers? And that's IF you get a writ? Legendary Improvement for 10 vouchers?
Atheric Dust? I can count on one hand the number my guild mates have found. And that's with fingers left over and covers 5 guilds!
Just my 2 septims!
Thank you for a great thread!
Huzzzah!

All of this. The RNG in this game overall is horrible and is why I don't even bother with a lot of the content.

I'd rather have regularly released DLC.

notimetocare · May 2017

MornaBaine wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Very well written! Thank you OP!
While yes, the gear dungeons drops are horrible, can we expand this thread to address the RNG drop rates else where in game?
Such as Mythic Cipher? It really is just that. A Myth! Lmao! It's like what? 0.00001%? If I havent seen 1 or 2 potions for sale, I would wonder if it exists at all.
Master Writs? In the housing PTS, they had a ok drop rate vs value (amount of vouchers per writ). Now. Perfect roe for 2 vouchers? And that's IF you get a writ? Legendary Improvement for 10 vouchers?
Atheric Dust? I can count on one hand the number my guild mates have found. And that's with fingers left over and covers 5 guilds!
Just my 2 septims!
Thank you for a great thread!
Huzzzah!

All of this. The RNG in this game overall is horrible and is why I don't even bother with a lot of the content.

I'd rather have regularly released DLC.

Sure it isnt your lack of skill that makes you not bother with content? I mean most RPers tend to be bad. Poor reaction, playing in first person, hybrid builds, caring more about looks and rp than cohesive skill setups.

nhisso · May 2017

The entitled generation strikes again.
Go play the single player games or something. You dont belong in an MMORPG.
RNG exists for a reason. So the vocal minority, as they do with everything, can stop trying to ruin stuff. We get it. You want instant gratification in your quest to rush through content and lobbyrat/hub rat it up so noobs will ask where you got the cool gear and you can complain how bored you are.