Maintenance for the week of July 7:
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 8, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – July 9, 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC) - 3:00PM EDT (19:00 UTC)
• [COMPLETE] PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 8, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – July 9, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – July 9, 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC) - 3:00PM EDT (19:00 UTC)
Update 47 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/680228
The Philosophy of RNG and its reception by the ESO player base
dpencil
✭✭✭✭
Greetings @MSchroeder, @Wrobel, @ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, ESO dev team and community!
I would like to highlight what I believe is a fundamental philosophical difference between how the ESO dev team looks at RNG and how the ESO player base looks at it. Of course, some players may disagree with me (as some people will always be content with the status quo, no matter what), but I believe I have a good grasp on the general population's attitude and will do my best to articulate it respectfully and rationally.
THESIS :
ESO players prefer predictability over lotteries, while the dev team believes that lotteries are more fun and exciting than predictability.
THE PROBLEM:
Every time a vMA final chest, final boss in a dungeon, or Elite PVP gear box is looted, players are faced with rolling the dice in multiple stacking lotteries (i.e. the RNG system). If the player is very, very lucky, the item received will be something useful and exciting, maybe even exactly what they were looking for. Otherwise, they will either receive no special item at all, or one that is not what they were interested in or would even consider using. The chances of a successful roll for an item to (drop) + be the desired (weight) + be the desired (item type) + be the desired (trait) are all compounded with each other and by the large number of alternatives. This is further exaserbated by the sometimes very long and difficult content gate to even get to one chest (in the case of vMA, for example). Others in the forums have demonstrated the math on these drop rates, which are worse than 1:100 in most cases.
PLAYER PERSPECTIVE:
Certainly the number of forum posts making this point, and the many voices agreeing with them point to an overall discontent with the RNG system, but beyond that, one could also look to the choices ESO players make between item sets. Consider sets like Hundings, Julianos, Seducer, Alchemist, Lich, Molag Kena, etc. which all provide a predictable benefit which is either always on or can actively be triggered. Aren't these kinds of sets vastly more preferred over sets with bonuses that involve chance? And when a chance set is preferred, isn't it only because the proc rate and strength is good enough to be considered powerful "on average" (as if it were on all the time, but at a lower power level). Even here, players are trying to determine what the consistency and predictable power of a set will be, and they will always gravitate away from those that fall behind in this way toward those which are shown to perform better. The commonality throughout the player base of this kind of thinking reinforces my thesis.
DEV PERSPECTIVE:
Turning to the dev perspective, in the May 20th ESO Live, Eric Wrobel mentioned the use of RNG in the PVP set boxes bought from the elite vendor as more "fun and exciting" than if the individual items were made available to be purchased directly. This was said as a consolation to a player asking if individual items could be made available instead of boxes to decrease the RNG, and Gina responded that there would be too many items for the vendor to hold. The player's primary concern which motivated the question was left unaddressed except to say the items will be BoE, so you can at least sell what doesn't work for you. We have also seen that any concern with the RNG system the devs have addressed has been met with solutions that do not fundamentally change the system but only modify drop chances to some degree (which is only the first roll in the series of lotteries that must be won to get a desired item). These include adding The Golden vendor in Cyrodill, modifying vMA chest and leaderboard drop rates, and modifying Undaunted chest drop rates. The updating of item traits and the addition of more traits to the loot table was an attempt to make more items agreeable to players, but also has the effect of further diluting someone's chances of getting a particular piece if that person is only interested in one specific trait (especially with the addition of non-combat traits like Training and Prosperous being in the loot table). In all of these attempted solutions the fundamental philosophical difference between players and devs is not being addressed.
THE REAL QUESTION:
So now, hopefully you will agree that I have demonstrated that ESO players respond more positively to predictable results, and that the attempts by the dev team to address player concerns have not dealt with this fundamental issue, but instead have continually reasserted their commitment to the RNG system. Why does the dev team feel so committed to this system in spite of considerable player feedback and data showing how undesirable it is? Unless we get an official answer from the dev team, we're left to speculate. I assume they believe that the RNG system is better for keeping players involved in between DLC cycles. You lose the desire to run content when you've gained all the rewards you wanted out of it, and that's not in dispute here. The real question is, is RNG the only or the best way to ensure content repetition? Is the frustration players feel at completing vMA or WGT 100 times without getting their desired drop just a necessary evil? I don't believe so. There is a solution, a way to keep players running content while still making them feel like they are gaining something instead of just wasting their time.
THE SOLUTION:
When players complete WGT or ICP they are awarded shards/fragments which they can accumulate to open a treasure room for a special reward. Similarly, killing mobs in Imperial City grants various trophies which can be used to unlock treasure rooms. All of these items and Tel Var stones represent the closest thing to a Token System ESO has. Just taking one example of the Willpower, Agility, and Endurance jewelry sets, the system works remarkably well. The items are all BoE, so they can be sold if a player doesn't need them but wants to make money or just happens to acquire lots of trophies doing IC content. The treasure rooms are distinct, dividing the different sets and even necklaces from rings. The only RNG element is which of the 3 possible traits the jewelry gets. That's a 1 in 3 chance of getting exactly what you want. The player feels like they are making progress gathering trophies and has a good chance of getting what they want or selling one of the less desirable pieces. The level of dissapointment for getting a Robust Willpower ring, for example, is considerably lower than failing the get any vMA weapon at all on the last chest. This is the sort of thing that needs to be more pervasive. Here is one example of how such a system could work:
A player completes a Vet Dungeon, the same RNG chance remains on the final boss for a monster helm, but additionally the player receives 10 dungeon tokens, I'll call them Sigil Remnants (for a splash of lore). After collecting 100 Sigil Remnants the player can take them to a Daedra who will combine them into a Sigil which will open an Oblivion gate. Upon entering the gate the player finds themself in a room full or chests. Above each chest is a wall carving of each of the vet dungeon bosses. Opening the chest you choose guarantees you will get that boss's helm. The weight and trait could still be RNG if necessary, but you can see how this would bring an additional encouragement to run random vet dungeons, a feeling of progression, and a diminishing of the RNG on top of RNG stacking. You could even go further and put 3 chests in front of each wall carving representing light, medium, and heavy, like the bronze silver and gold Undaunted chests.
The point is, there are ways to allow players more control over what they receive, be lore friendly, and most importantly, positively encourage and reward repetition of content. This would be a "more carrot, less stick" approach. Rather than being satisfied with player frustration over constantly missing all the RNG rolls for the item they want, provide a token system that gurantantees a payoff after a certain amount of repetitions so that even if a player happens to be unlucky in the short term they still have confidence of a reward they would really want if they stick with it. As things currently are, players can easily get so fatigued at trying and failing the RNG rolls that they end up losing hope and giving up. This doesn't benefit anyone and is not healthy for the game.
Making one token for all non-DLC dungeons, would make sense, along with maybe adding DLC helms to their respective treasure rooms. A different token for vMA would also be necessary. Perhaps allow the various Daedra around the arena building to each own one of the Maelstrom weapons which you can trade them a certain number of vMA tokens for. For the PVP boxes, the load could at least be split between 3 vendors (light, med, heavy) who sell boxes that only contain items from 1 set. So you could go to the medium vendor and get a Morag Tong box, for example. Perhaps the devs already have something like this in the works for when town capture is added. Ideally, I would like to see a game state in which the only constant RNG roll, if there has to be one at all, is for item trait, or alternately weight with trait re-crafting available (i.e., there could be a whole lore friendly system like malachite shards to create a crafting element that allows you to change an item's trait).
CONCLUSION:
My hope is that this post will be reviewed seriously by the dev team, and if a dev could please respond, it would be greatly appreciated! I do believe I have proven my thesis and offered a reasoned solution based on elements already in the game. If you've read this entire post, thank you for taking the time to do so!
tl,dr: Another Token System thread, hopefully articulated in a way that is meaningful and convincing to the devs.
I would like to highlight what I believe is a fundamental philosophical difference between how the ESO dev team looks at RNG and how the ESO player base looks at it. Of course, some players may disagree with me (as some people will always be content with the status quo, no matter what), but I believe I have a good grasp on the general population's attitude and will do my best to articulate it respectfully and rationally.
THESIS :
ESO players prefer predictability over lotteries, while the dev team believes that lotteries are more fun and exciting than predictability.
THE PROBLEM:
Every time a vMA final chest, final boss in a dungeon, or Elite PVP gear box is looted, players are faced with rolling the dice in multiple stacking lotteries (i.e. the RNG system). If the player is very, very lucky, the item received will be something useful and exciting, maybe even exactly what they were looking for. Otherwise, they will either receive no special item at all, or one that is not what they were interested in or would even consider using. The chances of a successful roll for an item to (drop) + be the desired (weight) + be the desired (item type) + be the desired (trait) are all compounded with each other and by the large number of alternatives. This is further exaserbated by the sometimes very long and difficult content gate to even get to one chest (in the case of vMA, for example). Others in the forums have demonstrated the math on these drop rates, which are worse than 1:100 in most cases.
PLAYER PERSPECTIVE:
Certainly the number of forum posts making this point, and the many voices agreeing with them point to an overall discontent with the RNG system, but beyond that, one could also look to the choices ESO players make between item sets. Consider sets like Hundings, Julianos, Seducer, Alchemist, Lich, Molag Kena, etc. which all provide a predictable benefit which is either always on or can actively be triggered. Aren't these kinds of sets vastly more preferred over sets with bonuses that involve chance? And when a chance set is preferred, isn't it only because the proc rate and strength is good enough to be considered powerful "on average" (as if it were on all the time, but at a lower power level). Even here, players are trying to determine what the consistency and predictable power of a set will be, and they will always gravitate away from those that fall behind in this way toward those which are shown to perform better. The commonality throughout the player base of this kind of thinking reinforces my thesis.
DEV PERSPECTIVE:
Turning to the dev perspective, in the May 20th ESO Live, Eric Wrobel mentioned the use of RNG in the PVP set boxes bought from the elite vendor as more "fun and exciting" than if the individual items were made available to be purchased directly. This was said as a consolation to a player asking if individual items could be made available instead of boxes to decrease the RNG, and Gina responded that there would be too many items for the vendor to hold. The player's primary concern which motivated the question was left unaddressed except to say the items will be BoE, so you can at least sell what doesn't work for you. We have also seen that any concern with the RNG system the devs have addressed has been met with solutions that do not fundamentally change the system but only modify drop chances to some degree (which is only the first roll in the series of lotteries that must be won to get a desired item). These include adding The Golden vendor in Cyrodill, modifying vMA chest and leaderboard drop rates, and modifying Undaunted chest drop rates. The updating of item traits and the addition of more traits to the loot table was an attempt to make more items agreeable to players, but also has the effect of further diluting someone's chances of getting a particular piece if that person is only interested in one specific trait (especially with the addition of non-combat traits like Training and Prosperous being in the loot table). In all of these attempted solutions the fundamental philosophical difference between players and devs is not being addressed.
THE REAL QUESTION:
So now, hopefully you will agree that I have demonstrated that ESO players respond more positively to predictable results, and that the attempts by the dev team to address player concerns have not dealt with this fundamental issue, but instead have continually reasserted their commitment to the RNG system. Why does the dev team feel so committed to this system in spite of considerable player feedback and data showing how undesirable it is? Unless we get an official answer from the dev team, we're left to speculate. I assume they believe that the RNG system is better for keeping players involved in between DLC cycles. You lose the desire to run content when you've gained all the rewards you wanted out of it, and that's not in dispute here. The real question is, is RNG the only or the best way to ensure content repetition? Is the frustration players feel at completing vMA or WGT 100 times without getting their desired drop just a necessary evil? I don't believe so. There is a solution, a way to keep players running content while still making them feel like they are gaining something instead of just wasting their time.
THE SOLUTION:
When players complete WGT or ICP they are awarded shards/fragments which they can accumulate to open a treasure room for a special reward. Similarly, killing mobs in Imperial City grants various trophies which can be used to unlock treasure rooms. All of these items and Tel Var stones represent the closest thing to a Token System ESO has. Just taking one example of the Willpower, Agility, and Endurance jewelry sets, the system works remarkably well. The items are all BoE, so they can be sold if a player doesn't need them but wants to make money or just happens to acquire lots of trophies doing IC content. The treasure rooms are distinct, dividing the different sets and even necklaces from rings. The only RNG element is which of the 3 possible traits the jewelry gets. That's a 1 in 3 chance of getting exactly what you want. The player feels like they are making progress gathering trophies and has a good chance of getting what they want or selling one of the less desirable pieces. The level of dissapointment for getting a Robust Willpower ring, for example, is considerably lower than failing the get any vMA weapon at all on the last chest. This is the sort of thing that needs to be more pervasive. Here is one example of how such a system could work:
A player completes a Vet Dungeon, the same RNG chance remains on the final boss for a monster helm, but additionally the player receives 10 dungeon tokens, I'll call them Sigil Remnants (for a splash of lore). After collecting 100 Sigil Remnants the player can take them to a Daedra who will combine them into a Sigil which will open an Oblivion gate. Upon entering the gate the player finds themself in a room full or chests. Above each chest is a wall carving of each of the vet dungeon bosses. Opening the chest you choose guarantees you will get that boss's helm. The weight and trait could still be RNG if necessary, but you can see how this would bring an additional encouragement to run random vet dungeons, a feeling of progression, and a diminishing of the RNG on top of RNG stacking. You could even go further and put 3 chests in front of each wall carving representing light, medium, and heavy, like the bronze silver and gold Undaunted chests.
The point is, there are ways to allow players more control over what they receive, be lore friendly, and most importantly, positively encourage and reward repetition of content. This would be a "more carrot, less stick" approach. Rather than being satisfied with player frustration over constantly missing all the RNG rolls for the item they want, provide a token system that gurantantees a payoff after a certain amount of repetitions so that even if a player happens to be unlucky in the short term they still have confidence of a reward they would really want if they stick with it. As things currently are, players can easily get so fatigued at trying and failing the RNG rolls that they end up losing hope and giving up. This doesn't benefit anyone and is not healthy for the game.
Making one token for all non-DLC dungeons, would make sense, along with maybe adding DLC helms to their respective treasure rooms. A different token for vMA would also be necessary. Perhaps allow the various Daedra around the arena building to each own one of the Maelstrom weapons which you can trade them a certain number of vMA tokens for. For the PVP boxes, the load could at least be split between 3 vendors (light, med, heavy) who sell boxes that only contain items from 1 set. So you could go to the medium vendor and get a Morag Tong box, for example. Perhaps the devs already have something like this in the works for when town capture is added. Ideally, I would like to see a game state in which the only constant RNG roll, if there has to be one at all, is for item trait, or alternately weight with trait re-crafting available (i.e., there could be a whole lore friendly system like malachite shards to create a crafting element that allows you to change an item's trait).
CONCLUSION:
My hope is that this post will be reviewed seriously by the dev team, and if a dev could please respond, it would be greatly appreciated! I do believe I have proven my thesis and offered a reasoned solution based on elements already in the game. If you've read this entire post, thank you for taking the time to do so!
tl,dr: Another Token System thread, hopefully articulated in a way that is meaningful and convincing to the devs.
56
-
Function✭✭✭Great post! I like your ideas and hope ZoS actually listens to them. One of my biggest issues with the game has always been the terrible RNG loot system, it is an endless tunnel with not even a speck of light at the end..1 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Solid post there, brah. 5/5. I have no idea why devs won't incorporate a token system. I really don't.1 -
Tolmos✭✭✭✭I can't speak for ESO on the RNG system as I've been away for a while, but I can say that I have no fond memories of older MMOs and their RNG systems. As newer, more modern, MMOs started moving towards a token system I found myself participating in group activities more and more.
I will never forget, back in the days of vanilla WoW, the most telling RNG experience I ever had. I was playing an undead priest, level 60, running either Scholomance or Stratholme (can't remember which) trying to get my blue chest piece. I ran it some 60 times, and the chest just would NOT drop. Finally, one day, it dropped. I was ecstatic. Jumping all over the room and soooo happy... until I realized that another member of the party was a DPS priest. We both rolled, and he won.
Last thing I saw in chat from that group was "Yay! I got it my first run! Lucky me!"
I didn't run another dungeon for almost 3 years and almost exclusively PvPed after that because there was a currency system in play there :-P
So yes, +1 for the idea of a token system in ESO. I dread the idea of dealing with more RNG like that.Edited by Tolmos on May 23, 2016 1:35AM11 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Love the post, good to see ideas that do not fix RNG by replacing them with easy gets (or easy buys).Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.0 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭A token system would have been infinitely better than the pvp vendor. I never understood that choice
The rng in loot has never bothered me, I guess I'm just used to it by now from a decade of mmo raids. I would love to see the rng in certain boss fights get changed out for something more consistent, and sensible. 2 -
InfaM✭✭✭Good post, I support the idea of a token system, now let's hope someone from ZOS actually read this thread.1 -
KingWhyteboi✭✭✭awesome post hope they listen pry not thov16 dark elf temp
v16 imperial nb
v16 khajiit nb
v16 imperial dk
v16 high elf sorc
v16 breton temp
v16 high elf nb
v16 dark elf dk1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax4 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.
I guess we'll see as this thread goes on, but I don't think this is a vocal minority issue. I've never encountered a player that likes ESO's RNG other than apparently you.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)4 -
Tolmos✭✭✭✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.
I can't remember the last time I heard, in any game within recent memory, a player say they would prefer an RNG system over a currency system. If you are of that stance, you are certainly the first!4 -
dpencil✭✭✭✭@Korah_Eaglecry It would be foolish to assume the opinion of anyone who remains silent, either for or against change. Not everyone who dislikes RNG is going to take the time to get on the forums to talk about it. What I can know is the opinions of those who have spoken both on the forums and in game, same as you. Do you find lots of people in game talking about how happy they are with the current RNG system or laughing at people who get frustrated at it? By far, I have seen people agreeing and being sympathetic about the issue both on the forums and in game. Only a couple of people on the forums have dissented, and they have done so with the same dismissive attitude as those who only chime in to say L2P on legitimate grievances. Trolls gotta troll. If someone actually wants to defend a counter argument against points or suggestions in the OP, bring it on. I will happily debate them. Otherwise it's just hot air.1
-
Yinmaigao✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can't speak for ESO on the RNG system as I've been away for a while, but I can say that I have no fond memories of older MMOs and their RNG systems. As newer, more modern, MMOs started moving towards a token system I found myself participating in group activities more and more.
I will never forget, back in the days of vanilla WoW, the most telling RNG experience I ever had. I was playing an undead priest, level 60, running either Scholomance or Stratholme (can't remember which) trying to get my blue chest piece. I ran it some 60 times, and the chest just would NOT drop. Finally, one day, it dropped. I was ecstatic. Jumping all over the room and soooo happy... until I realized that another member of the party was a DPS priest. We both rolled, and he won.
Last thing I saw in chat from that group was "Yay! I got it my first run! Lucky me!"
I didn't run another dungeon for almost 3 years and almost exclusively PvPed after that because there was a currency system in play there :-P
So yes, +1 for the idea of a token system in ESO. I dread the idea of dealing with more RNG like that.
LF39M MC, full on rogues.
But seriously, at least we don't have to fight for rolls on gear on top of RNG-Hell.0 -
Pyr0xyrecuprotite✭✭✭✭✭I'm fairly sure that two factors behind ZoS's use of the RNG system (there are likely more) are a) to make it a struggle that few can conquer, and b) to reward grinding. For a), it has to really mean something to get a certain set or item (eg. Maelstrom weapons are out of reach of many if not most players), so those who do get them can justly feel proud.
For b), the Grind rewards (mostly) those players who are willing to spend countless hours on the small chance that they might get the piece they need - or at least start the collection. This is the lottery mentality, where studies of real-life gambling have found that the small random chance of a big payout is much more addictive than a KNOWN way of getting a sure reward. Going the RNG route means that ZoS gets to keep their number of active players up (for marketing reasons etc), instead of letting players get the gear that they want more easily, after which they would get bored, and move on to another game.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭But 'RNG is fun and exciting' according to the devs.Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »I'm fairly sure that two factors behind ZoS's use of the RNG system (there are likely more) are a) to make it a struggle that few can conquer, and b) to reward grinding. For a), it has to really mean something to get a certain set or item (eg. Maelstrom weapons are out of reach of many if not most players), so those who do get them can justly feel proud.
You achieve this by making content challenging not putting RNG on it.Pyr0xyrecuprotite wrote: »For b), the Grind rewards (mostly) those players who are willing to spend countless hours on the small chance that they might get the piece they need - or at least start the collection. This is the lottery mentality, where studies of real-life gambling have found that the small random chance of a big payout is much more addictive than a KNOWN way of getting a sure reward. Going the RNG route means that ZoS gets to keep their number of active players up (for marketing reasons etc), instead of letting players get the gear that they want more easily, after which they would get bored, and move on to another game.
Gambling is addictive, sure. Now, would it still be so addictive if the casino had you move bricks from one spot to another for an hour or two before placing every bet? Would you stay at your job if your boss rolled a 20 sided die every hour you worked and only paid you for the hour if he got a 20? I mean that should be addictive AF accorting to your definition.
Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on May 23, 2016 7:49AMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.12 -
dpencil✭✭✭✭@Pyr0xyrecuprotite I agree with you, these factors likely have an influence on the dev team's commitment to the RNG system.
Concerning (a) making BiS gear difficult to gain and therefore a point of pride for those who have it, while this might be a desire that they imagine the RNG system accomplishes, it doesn't actually play out that way in this game for anything except maybe the Maelstrom weapons and Maw trial sets. The fact that many BiS items are craftable, purchasable from guild vendors, or purchasable from The Golden vendor means that in general it's no real indication of prestige to have BiS gear. And with vMA there's no distiction between the player who just barely cleared it and got lucky on the chest drop (like me), or a player who consistently flawlessly clears it but still has yet to see their desired item. If the issue is rewarding players for conquering difficult content the other guy should be having a much easier time getting his weapons than me, and The Golden vendor should not be selling monster pieces (at least not Molag Kena).
Regarding (b) rewarding grinding and promoting an addictive mentality, while some players may willingly pour endless hours grinding for the mear hope of getting their gear, the experience for them is not necessarily pleasant, and many may simply give up after the frustration of failure overwhelms them. A token system as described in the OP would not replace the RNG system on initial chest opens but supliment it with an actual reward for grinding should the chest consistently fail to reward the player for their effort. Also, a player is just as much in danger of leaving the game because of frustration with RNG, lag, class balance, etc. as getting bored because they've completed their gear grind. In fact, especially when it comes to PvP, completing the gear grind is practically just the beginning. Then you can "really" start playing PvP like you want. True, maybe vMA and PvE group content would lose some appeal, but again this can happen because a player just gives up trying too. You could imagine an average number of runs a player would be willing to complete with no reward before just giving up. Tune the token system to reward them just before that and you've actually increased their willingness to repeat the content beyond what they would have done without it. Like, if I would quit running vMA for a bow if I didn't see one after 20 runs, give me enough tokens after 15 runs to get a guaranteed bow, but the trait is still random. Now I can settle for a less desirable trait in the mean time and run it another 15 times to try again for a better trait. If I get the trait I want on the second turn in, I've run the content 30 times instead of 20, and since I got what I wanted, I leave the experience positively instead of negatively. In any event, the devs should also be consistently churning out new content and desirable gear with a reasonable acquisition rate anyway, instead of expecting players to grind for gear for a year and then expect to keep it forever. Eventually the CP cap will rise and then everything will need to be acquired again.
So neither of these points actually show RNG is better, only that it can be perceived as better if merely looked at superficially.Edited by dpencil on May 23, 2016 6:40AM0 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You know, players don't always know what's good for them. If loot drops were predictable we'd run out of content in a week and complain about a lack of content. RNG is a cheap way to make content last longer, but it is effective. Otherwise ya'll would be complaining about the lack of content while they were not getting the funding needed to finance a team to produce and test new content every week."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm2 -
I don't mind an element of randomness in either loot drops or rewards. However, it would be nice if the more senseless combinations of items and enchantments were eliminated.
Very recently I got a Ice Staff of the Marksman in a rewards of the worthy mail.0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.
I guess we'll see as this thread goes on, but I don't think this is a vocal minority issue. I've never encountered a player that likes ESO's RNG other than apparently you.
You won't see. There will be some which speak up but most people who are happy with the system or just don't care will be playing the game and not coming to the forums. This is always the side we can't see but ZOS can via looking at data.
Generally it's not wise to have threads which say they speak for the entire community because one person can't do that, speak for yourself and let those who agree with you come to post and support you.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.
I guess we'll see as this thread goes on, but I don't think this is a vocal minority issue. I've never encountered a player that likes ESO's RNG other than apparently you.
You won't see. There will be some which speak up but most people who are happy with the system or just don't care will be playing the game and not coming to the forums. This is always the side we can't see but ZOS can via looking at data.
Well I don't recall ZOS making any surveys regarding RNG in vMA and pvp rewards . So the data you're talking about is what exactly?
Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on May 23, 2016 7:47AMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭Good post.
I don't mind RNG on any other game and I don't mind grinding on any other game, in fact I actually quite enjoy working towards whatever end goal I have but ESO has by far the worse "random" number generator algorithm of them all.
It's not enjoyable on ESO, it actually spoils the game to the point where most things are just not fun or worth the effort of accomplishing.
They need to stop minipulating it to the point where it's completely breaking peoples enjoyment and reward them for their time and effort every once in a while.3 -
dpencil✭✭✭✭@ParaNostram Not to be rude, but did you actually read the OP? I never suggested players should be able to just instantly expect every chest to drop exactly what they want. A token system is about putting a ceiling on how much RNG failure a player has to deal with. That ceiling can be high if necessary, so the overall impact on speeding up item acquisition would not be drastic, but the poor outliers who have run over 100 repetitions without seeing their drop would be spared and brought more in line with general acquisition rates.
@Turelus As I said earlier, making the assumption that everyone who doesn't post on the forum is content would be equally fallacious. Think of a bad dining experience. Some people would demand to speak to a manager, while others would just leave in frustrated silence. We cannot know the attitude of those who don't speak up. However when considering those who have spoken either on the forums or in game, my experience has been observing a strong agreement in favor of a token system, and it is this observed consensus that I was referring to in the OP.Edited by dpencil on May 23, 2016 8:14AM3 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭True it is fallacious to say, I just get tired of reading threads which apparently express the opinion of myself, my friends and everyone else in the community only for those people to be chewed out in a thread when they say "well actually I like this and you don't represent my views". As I said, make posts stating your opinion or that of your friends/guild if they agree but don't speak for the community as a whole.
ZOS are the only ones with real metrics about such things, sometimes I wish they kept their beta add-on where you could rate content every time you did a quest or whatever. They could have one at the end of each dungeon (if you opt into the feedback add-on) and give a "were you happy with your rewards? was the content challenging? etc." so they gather actual live feedback from players about how they're feeling with the games content.
@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."3 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thanks for the post.
Yeah, these issues have been discussed a lot of times but devs still seem to be thinking that rng is fun and exciting. But the thing is... What makes lotteries exciting for those who participates, is the fact that you can win a lot of stuff for doing nothing. In eso, you're spending a lot of time to get your rng roll. Its not like a lottery, its like if your job salary would be random.Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »Your post assumes that this vocal minority represent a silent majority.
Forum users are a minority anyway. The majority is just playing the game.
Besides, 0.001% rng chances for the bes tgear exclude the majority of players (casuals) much more than any difficulty... 100s of runs of easy content are still 100s of runs.Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU0 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@ParaNostram Not to be rude, but did you actually read the OP? I never suggested players should be able to just instantly expect every chest to drop exactly what they want. A token system is about putting a ceiling on how much RNG failure a player has to deal with. That ceiling can be high if necessary, so the overall impact on speeding up item acquisition would not be drastic, but the poor outliers who have run over 100 repetitions without seeing their drop would be spared and brought more in line with general acquisition rates.
@Turelus As I said earlier, making the assumption that everyone who doesn't post on the forum is content would be equally fallacious. Think of a bad dining experience. Some people would demand to speak to a manager, while others would just leave in frustrated silence. We cannot know the attitude of those who don't speak up. However when considering those who have spoken either on the forums or in game, my experience has been observing a strong agreement in favor of a token system, and it is this observed consensus that I was referring to in the OP.
True, but that's just part of the MMO experience. I ran Black Temple in WoW during the Burning Crusade and never got those legendaries but I still loved it. I would see people with them and be in awe of those items because they meant something. Monster helm sets? Seems like everyone has several."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
ZOS are the only ones with real metrics about such things, sometimes I wish they kept their beta add-on where you could rate content every time you did a quest or whatever. They could have one at the end of each dungeon (if you opt into the feedback add-on) and give a "were you happy with your rewards? was the content challenging? etc." so they gather actual live feedback from players about how they're feeling with the games content.
That's the issue I have with the statement 'ZOS have the metrics'. They don't. Not in this case. How do they know people's opinion of RNG in VMA and pvp rewards. In fact all they have on this are forum posts.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on May 23, 2016 9:45AMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.3 -
SlayerTheDragon✭✭✭✭✭You cannot have RNG and unchangeable traits. One of them must go.¤═══¤ People don't like it when you talk to them with your weapon drawn ¤═══¤4 -
EsoRecon✭✭✭✭✭It sucks.Xbox One [ NA ]
Gamertag - Zyzz II Legacy
Stam Sorc & Stam NB PvP
(I'm Just Here To 1vX)2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Plan A.
Problem is how can RNG know what gear of what weight of what......etc.... we want ?
If we arent bothered what we get then the RNG is awesome.
If we have a couple of rquirements than the RNG is beginning to get punishing.
If we want something really specific RNG will have you leaping off the nearest rooftop.
Plan B
BoE eases the burden as you get gold.
The Traders now offer sets for gold too.
So you can (at some point) buy the set you want (to some degree) by using gold from unwanted sets.
This is your token system in effect.
But this still has the element of RNG too.
It is highly influenced by market value of armour.
You could be waiting for ever for the gear you want to appear.
@ OP.
I believe they tried to remedy the RNG luck issues with the gear trader mechanic.
Do you believe this is not a satisfactory failsafe for attrocious RNG results ?
I am playing devils advocate and trying to argue form ZOS side of the fence as they rarely put forward their own reasoning and arguments.
Edited by Rune_Relic on May 23, 2016 12:11PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
dwemer_cog11✭✭The point is, there are ways to allow players more control over what they receive, be lore friendly, and most importantly, positively encourage and reward repetition of content.
Funny, but what you are proposing serves just the opposite
You have done vMA or WGT/ICP 100 times - and havn't got what you wanted. So, you are "forced" to do it one more time.
That's a repetition of content. Yes, it is frustrating but the fact remains.
Now imagine you can run vMA or WGT/ICP 20 times and get what you want via "token" system. You will stop doing them as soon as it happens, because those "token" will be a dead weight.
0