So...Stamina DK vs. Stamina Sorcerer

Mricci1988 · May 2016

So looking at the two classes there are very solid opportunities with both however I am completely confused in which way to go.

Example:
Stamina DK:
Damage abilities (Stamina) - Venomous claws, Noxious Breath, Bloodthirster, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Support Abilities - Caltrops, Evil Hunter, Inginous Weapons, Obsidan Shield
Execute: None in class
Ultimate Generation / Considerations: Earthen Heart is insanely good to generate ultimate quickly as well as Standard of Might is a great dps / tanking ultimate for AOE in general.

Great to go Dual Weild / Bow DoT build overall. Great CP synergy now with posion and physical linked together under the mighty CP.

Stamina Sorc:
Damage Abilities (Stamina) - Hurricane, Twin Slashes (blood craze), Bloodthirster (flurry morph), Flawless Dawnbreaker
Support Abilities: Caltrops, Evil Hunter, Crit Surge, Bound Armaments
Execute: Well now technically at 15% we get a passive execute Implosion that is a 6% chance to execute enemies under 15% health that is proced by all physical damage including DoT's (Flurry is considered a DoT)...so potentially we can get some insane burst.
Ultimate Generation / Considerations: There are no ways to generate ultimate as a class (from what i can see) however due to Powerstone passive we have the cheapest ultimate in game....85 ultimate cost on Dawnbreaker which is pretty solid...

Again - great to go Dual Wield / Bow DoT build. Some aspects are questionable such as overall DPS performance (Can hurricane + Twin Slashes as dots out DPS burning talons + venomous claws? If not how close is it? Furthermore - Looking at ultimates unless we get a physical morph of atronach it will be difficult to compete from an ultimate view point.

I see Stamina Sorcs however being able to EASILY out class DK's on stamina potential + weapon damage.

Slayer Passive (fighters guild) 6% wep damage (evil hunter + flawless on same bar)
Bound Armaments: Increase in total stamina 11%
Racial bonuses (Imperial 10% stamina bonus)
Energized: Auto 5% increase in weapon damage
Twin Blade and Blunt: 5% increase in weapon damage (dual swords)
Expert Mage: 2% increase to weapon damage PER sorc ability (Hurricane + Crit Surge + Bound Armaments on primary bar) =6% increase in weapon damage

Dual Wield single target bar:
Hurricane
Blood Craze (Twin slashes morph for heals)
Bloodthirster (Flurry morph for heals)
Evil Hunter (Not sure which morph would be best actually from expert hunter)
Bound Armaments (Bound armor morph)
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bow AoE Bar:
Poision Injection
Scorched Earth
Caltrops
Bound Araments
Crit Surge
Flex ultimate (atro? Overload for third bar?)

I see stamina sorcs with the flat heals + dual wield morphs being INSANELY strong for HoT's and general PVE healing...not sure at endgame however it has potential.

I see great procing abilities for Implosion passive since each DoT has a 6% chance per tick to proc this passive execute.

Just fooling around with Stam Sorc...what do you guys think?

tennant94 · May 2016

I think the big difference is the major mending buff dks have access to.

Ajaxduo · May 2016

Stamina DK is going to be far better in single target than a stam sorc, as well as stamplar and stamblade. Currently on live there are people pulling 35k+ stdps and that's without the upcoming poison morph changes...so it will be even more. Stamina sorc is nice but lacks a dedicated stamina single target dps ability to give the class it's own identity (example; templar jabs, dk unstable flame, nb suprise attack). Don't get me wrong the hurricane change is big, but there is still a gap where 1 more single target ability should be. I feel that a class ultimate that also scales with mighty cp passive would cement stamina sorc's competitive viability (Air Atronach anyone?). That being said, try this on PTS;
Hurricane + Deadly Cloak + Razor Caltrops + Endless Hail + Steel Tornado. The AoE potential is now the best in the game. ^^

D0ntevenL1ft · May 2016

Stam sorc also has the movement speed as I've been having this internal debate myself since last patch notes. It really comes down to major mending and venomous claw vs major expedition and crit surge

CasNation · May 2016

There is zero competition. Stam DK wins, every time. They have better resource management, better consistent damage, better class ultimates, better skills for a stam character, and better passives.

While the sorc MAY have a higher stam/weapon damage potential, that doesn't help them if all of your attack options are terrible.

Major expedition is the only thing they bring to the table, but if you want to run the new Hurricane (which is a halfway decent DoT, apparently) then you don't even get that. Coupled with the fact that shields can't be critted, and Surge just got nerfed into the ground, stam sorcs don't have a lot of things on their plate. Also, stam DK got crazy buffed this patch with the poison morphs.

TL;DR: go stam DK. You will be happier in the end. They are a better designed class.

Mricci1988 · May 2016

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

Jhunn · May 2016

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

There's no competition at all - stam DK is far superior and will be aswell next patch.

Mumyo · May 2016

Jhunn wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

There's no competition at all - stam DK is far superior and will be aswell next patch.

On no-cp campaign i think the stamsorc will lead the race.
Everything related to cp is crap anyways, they lost controll

CasNation · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

There's no competition at all - stam DK is far superior and will be aswell next patch.

On no-cp campaign i think the stamsorc will lead the race.
Everything related to cp is crap anyways, they lost controll

Why do you think this? Serious question. While CP does favor the stam DK, I also don't see any strengths the sorc has without CP over the DK.

Mumyo · May 2016

CasNation wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

There's no competition at all - stam DK is far superior and will be aswell next patch.

On no-cp campaign i think the stamsorc will lead the race.
Everything related to cp is crap anyways, they lost controll

Why do you think this? Serious question. While CP does favor the stam DK, I also don't see any strengths the sorc has without CP over the DK.

Stam dk won't get stronger dots and doesn't have his insane leap dmg for instance.
Sorc on the other hand gets many bonuses now that aren't cp related.
I am not a sorc so i can not entirely speak for the class but the desintegration on physical basis as the dmg increase are an awesome basestat increase that don't need anything to be strong. They are just there.

I dont wan't to say that stamsorc is gonna be the absolute king but he will surely be top notch and so is it's ressourcemanagement.

susmitds · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

There's no competition at all - stam DK is far superior and will be aswell next patch.

On no-cp campaign i think the stamsorc will lead the race.
Everything related to cp is crap anyways, they lost controll

Why do you think this? Serious question. While CP does favor the stam DK, I also don't see any strengths the sorc has without CP over the DK.

Stam dk won't get stronger dots and doesn't have his insane leap dmg for instance.
Sorc on the other hand gets many bonuses now that aren't cp related.
I am not a sorc so i can not entirely speak for the class but the desintegration on physical basis as the dmg increase are an awesome basestat increase that don't need anything to be strong. They are just there.

I dont wan't to say that stamsorc is gonna be the absolute king but he will surely be top notch and so is it's ressourcemanagement.

In the non-cp as well as the CP campaigns it would be the stamina nightblades who would massively dominate.

Mumyo · May 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

CasNation wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Jhunn wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Has anyone done a general review / testing based on DPS comparisons?

@Alcast I know you are HUGE on stamina builds and quite frankly one of the favorite players to take advice from.

What do you feel on the matter?

There's no competition at all - stam DK is far superior and will be aswell next patch.

On no-cp campaign i think the stamsorc will lead the race.
Everything related to cp is crap anyways, they lost controll

Why do you think this? Serious question. While CP does favor the stam DK, I also don't see any strengths the sorc has without CP over the DK.

Stam dk won't get stronger dots and doesn't have his insane leap dmg for instance.
Sorc on the other hand gets many bonuses now that aren't cp related.
I am not a sorc so i can not entirely speak for the class but the desintegration on physical basis as the dmg increase are an awesome basestat increase that don't need anything to be strong. They are just there.

I dont wan't to say that stamsorc is gonna be the absolute king but he will surely be top notch and so is it's ressourcemanagement.

In the non-cp as well as the CP campaigns it would be the stamina nightblades who would massively dominate.

right now they don't and i dont see why they should... incap strike will not be as "funny" as on cp server and if it goes live as it is now... i won't see anyone surviving an incap strike gank on the cp campaign.
On the no-cp, there will be no difference to what it is now.

Tyrannitar · May 2016

Mricci1988 wrote: »

So looking at the two classes there are very solid opportunities with both however I am completely confused in which way to go.

Example:
Stamina DK:
Damage abilities (Stamina) - Venomous claws, Noxious Breath, Bloodthirster, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Support Abilities - Caltrops, Evil Hunter, Inginous Weapons, Obsidan Shield
Execute: None in class
Ultimate Generation / Considerations: Earthen Heart is insanely good to generate ultimate quickly as well as Standard of Might is a great dps / tanking ultimate for AOE in general.

Great to go Dual Weild / Bow DoT build overall. Great CP synergy now with posion and physical linked together under the mighty CP.

Stamina Sorc:
Damage Abilities (Stamina) - Hurricane, Twin Slashes (blood craze), Bloodthirster (flurry morph), Flawless Dawnbreaker
Support Abilities: Caltrops, Evil Hunter, Crit Surge, Bound Armaments
Execute: Well now technically at 15% we get a passive execute Implosion that is a 6% chance to execute enemies under 15% health that is proced by all physical damage including DoT's (Flurry is considered a DoT)...so potentially we can get some insane burst.
Ultimate Generation / Considerations: There are no ways to generate ultimate as a class (from what i can see) however due to Powerstone passive we have the cheapest ultimate in game....85 ultimate cost on Dawnbreaker which is pretty solid...

Again - great to go Dual Wield / Bow DoT build. Some aspects are questionable such as overall DPS performance (Can hurricane + Twin Slashes as dots out DPS burning talons + venomous claws? If not how close is it? Furthermore - Looking at ultimates unless we get a physical morph of atronach it will be difficult to compete from an ultimate view point.

I see Stamina Sorcs however being able to EASILY out class DK's on stamina potential + weapon damage.

Slayer Passive (fighters guild) 6% wep damage (evil hunter + flawless on same bar)
Bound Armaments: Increase in total stamina 11%
Racial bonuses (Imperial 10% stamina bonus)
Energized: Auto 5% increase in weapon damage
Twin Blade and Blunt: 5% increase in weapon damage (dual swords)
Expert Mage: 2% increase to weapon damage PER sorc ability (Hurricane + Crit Surge + Bound Armaments on primary bar) =6% increase in weapon damage

Dual Wield single target bar:
Hurricane
Blood Craze (Twin slashes morph for heals)
Bloodthirster (Flurry morph for heals)
Evil Hunter (Not sure which morph would be best actually from expert hunter)
Bound Armaments (Bound armor morph)
Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bow AoE Bar:
Poision Injection
Scorched Earth
Caltrops
Bound Araments
Crit Surge
Flex ultimate (atro? Overload for third bar?)

I see stamina sorcs with the flat heals + dual wield morphs being INSANELY strong for HoT's and general PVE healing...not sure at endgame however it has potential.

I see great procing abilities for Implosion passive since each DoT has a 6% chance per tick to proc this passive execute.

Just fooling around with Stam Sorc...what do you guys think?

Due to the changes with crit surge, Stam DK will FAR outclass us in terms of sustainability.

Seriously. I've run one since beta and I'm rerolling come DB as a stam dk.

Septimus_Magna · May 2016

You're comparing the best stamina class (DK) to the worst stamina class (sorc).

Doesnt matter if its pve or pvp, stam DK will be so much better.

Mojmir · May 2016

Stam dk, cause stam sorc is silly IMO.

Mricci1988 · May 2016

[/quote]Due to the changes with crit surge, Stam DK will FAR outclass us in terms of sustainability.

Seriously. I've run one since beta and I'm rerolling come DB as a stam dk.[/quote]

okay so what is making DK's have that kind of sustainability? GDB is meh...Vigor is kind of for anyone i think no?

Is it Obsidian Shield???

Mricci1988 · May 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Stam dk, cause stam sorc is silly IMO.

I dont think necessarily that stam sorc is silly to be honest....I like a magical warrior....makes me feel unique!

Pepper8Jack · May 2016

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Due to the changes with crit surge, Stam DK will FAR outclass us in terms of sustainability.

Seriously. I've run one since beta and I'm rerolling come DB as a stam dk.[/quote]

okay so what is making DK's have that kind of sustainability? GDB is meh...Vigor is kind of for anyone i think no?

Is it Obsidian Shield??? [/quote]

Simply, better passives.

Mountain's blessing + helping hand make the DK one of the best sustain classes in game (behind NB)

Mricci1988 · May 2016

Pepper8Jack wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Due to the changes with crit surge, Stam DK will FAR outclass us in terms of sustainability.

Seriously. I've run one since beta and I'm rerolling come DB as a stam dk.

okay so what is making DK's have that kind of sustainability? GDB is meh...Vigor is kind of for anyone i think no?

Is it Obsidian Shield??? [/quote]

Simply, better passives.

Mountain's blessing + helping hand make the DK one of the best sustain classes in game (behind NB)[/quote]

Hey so....

I am looking at Helping hands i see it restoring some decent stamina no question - but what Earthen Heart skills are you activating with that frequency? Obsidean Shield? Thats expensive...Molten Weapons is a 33 second duration so ur not popping it that much.

I am looking at the raw Weapon Damage potential Stamina Sorcerers are getting and i am seriously considering that they have more overall potential in general.

Mricci1988 · May 2016

I mean when i look at a Stam DK....all they really have going for them is 3 things.

Stam regen (helping hands) 4% each cast
Venomous Claw (okay i agree OP DoT)
Ult Generation + minor brutality - Mountains Blessing

Stam sorcs bring so much more to the table i think

Xsorus · May 2016

I'm planning a stamina sorc next patch once I get another 2 character slots.

Doing Redguard

1hd/Shield, with Bow

PvP Wise i don't think it'd be terrible, I think PVE wise DKs would be better simply cause more access to dots

Mojmir · May 2016

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Stam dk, cause stam sorc is silly IMO.

I dont think necessarily that stam sorc is silly to be honest....I like a magical warrior....makes me feel unique!

Just like everyone else.

Mricci1988 · May 2016

Okay but i still dont get why peopple are saying DK > Sorc for stamina.

Alcast · May 2016

PVE Wise Stamina DK > Stam NB/Temp/Sorc. However, all classes are able to do great dps.

PvP wise both are really good next patch. The changes to stam sorc help A LOT in dark brotherhood.

Mricci1988 · May 2016

Alcast wrote: »

PVE Wise Stamina DK > Stam NB/Temp/Sorc. However, all classes are able to do great dps.

PvP wise both are really good next patch. The changes to stam sorc help A LOT in dark brotherhood.

omg....Alcast answered me....

Alcast you are my Stamina Hero #fanboygasm

Thanks for the input, i just watched your stamina DD DK video on DW Maelstrom / Mael Bow.

The build looked great but noticed you didnt use caltrops.

I was wondering how you feel about the changes to Stam Sorc are for 2.4.2? I mean i see some potential but from the DK Venomous Claw is > Rending Slashes but the amount of HP sustain we have from DW tree + Crit Surge we might be able to complete vMSA properly.

Perhaps echoing vigor > crit surge? not sure - what do you feel?

Or Stam DK just overall stronger with Vigor as our primary heal?

acw37162 · May 2016

Energized is 5% increase to physical damage not weapon damage. I'll have to double check but it would be tooltip reflected not weapon damage reflected

Mricci1988 · May 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

Energized is 5% increase to physical damage not weapon damage. I'll have to double check but it would be tooltip reflected not weapon damage reflected

Thats a VERY good point - sorry i overlooked that.

It would be SO awesome if we got something like a "Crystal Slash" morphed from Crystal Shard (remove crystal blast).

it can STILL have a 1 second cast time thats fine like a Wrecking Blow idea...but what it offers is a armor debuff and hits hard like a regular crystal frag proc that scales with stamina.

This i can see being a viable solution.

However still we need to assume this is not possible.

That being said....i have to agree with Alcast....as much as i dont want to because i want to love stam sorc (streaking around closing and stunning people then unloading DoT's on them"....

acw37162 · May 2016

The add of minor expidition to hurricane is really nice and pairs well with bow passives or blade cloak from DW.

However, I'm really hating the crit surge change it may end up having me shelf my stam sorc on live. I fLl into the camp of rather having the burst heal capability over the capped 3K heal and can't work out a good reason why it can't do both. So long as you don't let to the two overlap. If a DOT procs it you get the regulated heal with and ICD if you go on a direct damage spree it heals you for 60% of the value with a DOT heal always proving the ICD your not going to be over powered in the heals.

And then leaguers have the versatile to choose how they use it depending on the situation the capped heal with ICD dosent make the skill worthless but it does make it inferior to other options.

f047ys3v3n · May 2016

The highest dps player I know is currently a stam DK on live. With that DK poison change, yikes. I find stam sorc interesting and a little fun as it can do some very unique things like healing off everything with it's major weapon damage skill. I really don't see it anywhere near catching stam DK on dps even with the changes though. I expect to see a certain stam DK get to 50k next patch. That will double up my 25k mag ranged dps that is pretty darn good.

It is a little surprising that stam is getting such a damage boost in the next patch given it is currently the highest dps (though only in its DK flavor). Perhaps ZOS is a little confused by the current Stam V Magic meta in PVP. I will help them. They made this set, vicious death, that is the only thing that matters and it is magica only. Love it or hate it you can't deny, it is the only thing that matters. As for the domination of magica in PVE. It is all about versatility and ranged dps. I see some stam versatility being addressed but not much ranged. What I see mostly is a general stam dps buff.

Alcast · May 2016

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

PVE Wise Stamina DK > Stam NB/Temp/Sorc. However, all classes are able to do great dps.

PvP wise both are really good next patch. The changes to stam sorc help A LOT in dark brotherhood.

omg....Alcast answered me....

Alcast you are my Stamina Hero #fanboygasm

Thanks for the input, i just watched your stamina DD DK video on DW Maelstrom / Mael Bow.

The build looked great but noticed you didnt use caltrops.

I was wondering how you feel about the changes to Stam Sorc are for 2.4.2? I mean i see some potential but from the DK Venomous Claw is > Rending Slashes but the amount of HP sustain we have from DW tree + Crit Surge we might be able to complete vMSA properly.

Perhaps echoing vigor > crit surge? not sure - what do you feel?

Or Stam DK just overall stronger with Vigor as our primary heal?

Hey

The Crit surge change is crazy. For example when I use Rapid strikes on an enemy in PvP it heals me for almost 5k. In PvE that would be almost a 10k heal every 2seconds.

And yap, energized is a 5% damage increase which is huge in my opinion. Plus we have Dawnbreaker which can be empowered with Maelstrom daggers, and it only costs 85 Ulti.

luxfreak · May 2016

Alcast wrote: »

Mricci1988 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

PVE Wise Stamina DK > Stam NB/Temp/Sorc. However, all classes are able to do great dps.

PvP wise both are really good next patch. The changes to stam sorc help A LOT in dark brotherhood.

omg....Alcast answered me....

Alcast you are my Stamina Hero #fanboygasm

Thanks for the input, i just watched your stamina DD DK video on DW Maelstrom / Mael Bow.

The build looked great but noticed you didnt use caltrops.

I was wondering how you feel about the changes to Stam Sorc are for 2.4.2? I mean i see some potential but from the DK Venomous Claw is > Rending Slashes but the amount of HP sustain we have from DW tree + Crit Surge we might be able to complete vMSA properly.

Perhaps echoing vigor > crit surge? not sure - what do you feel?

Or Stam DK just overall stronger with Vigor as our primary heal?

Hey

The Crit surge change is crazy. For example when I use Rapid strikes on an enemy in PvP it heals me for almost 5k. In PvE that would be almost a 10k heal every 2seconds.

And yap, energized is a 5% damage increase which is huge in my opinion. Plus we have Dawnbreaker which can be empowered with Maelstrom daggers, and it only costs 85 Ulti.

How can you say that Dawnbreaker will be empowered by MSA weapons? As far as i remember the MSA enchantment only works on single target DoTs. @Alcast
Still, the Danwbreaker should be aweasome as an Ult.