"We Are ESO" Podcast - Returns!

Sypher · May 2016

Podcast is live now on twitch.tv/sypherpk

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We Are ESO - Podcast #8

Discussing Dark Brotherhood PTS and PvP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE6iXwmGbiw

DisgracefulMind · May 2016

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

Suru · May 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

Pretty much this. With how the DB changes affect resources the game will be more skill dependent and critical if you manage resources poorly.

If resources were like this across the board, many of the concerns discussed after the no CP campaign topic, such as the high damage high sustain would not be an issue anymore. This issue is almost nonexistent in the non CP campaign, which could use more pop.

Sypher · May 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra · May 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · May 2016

Only watched alittle but the issue with Heavy Armor getting Impen is YES great for PvP, but the roadblock is PvE. NPCs don't crit so it would be useless for PvE players. And No making NPCs crit would cause random wipes due to RNG across the board. In the future after a lot of PvE balance but we're not there yet if ever.

DisgracefulMind · May 2016

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

DHale · May 2016

I was looking forward to this, always love your input and that of fengrush and lefty and the king. That said you lost a viewer yesterday. If I wanted input from players that will get in groups of 15 elite players to jump on single players as they cross the Alessia bridge or ash gate and will chase a single player all the way to nickel and sejanus just to get a kill and of course the 8 ppl who didn't hit you tea bagging you. I was thinking huh not for me. Reviewing your death re-cap is always enlightening if nothing else. Some players just like to play that way and that's cool but I am not going to listen to it. I get to experience it every day... the joy. I realize you get Zerged down all the time it's because in this game you are somebody... ESO famous it goes with the territory. However it would probably be a good thing to be the GM of a guild most of them belong to... I wouldn't know. I just can't support play where ash is one color and nickel is another and the third rides all the way from Chalman to sit at the ash mile gate to have literally 15 players prox det single players as they ride in. Destroys my immersion.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Thanks for the link an the show . I'll check it out soon !

Sypher · May 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE6iXwmGbiw

Dyride · May 2016

Actually thought you all brought up some good points. I would agree that passive and active mitigation should be looked at for Heavy Armor, since they are removing the benefit to active mitigation (Blocking).

Also appreciate the opinions on the IC changes. I can't believe after 8 months to work out a fix to IC and they are going to flub it again.

Rather than Respawn at the flag, the district owners should be put at the spawn point where they can drop into sewers like the respawn system now. That would force them to run back instead of instantly be at the flag.

kinggingernator · May 2016

Siffer please tell me you covered mag dks. I don't want to watch the whole thing and have it become more and more stressful the longer you go without covering them.

frozywozy · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

They need to redesign the whole champion system and remove all CPS that give either DAMAGE, SUSTAIN or SURVIVABILITY and give us more utility options.

Sypher · May 2016

kinggingernator wrote: »

Siffer please tell me you covered mag dks. I don't want to watch the whole thing and have it become more and more stressful the longer you go without covering them.

We didn't cover specific class balance. That discussion usually gets messy. We covered general balance and changes.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2016

Just watched . I liked it . Good information for those who can't test right now .

KenaPKK · May 2016

All those requests to talk about Radiant in chat. lolol

I have to agree with Derra about the non-CP build diversity. With the removal of softcaps, some power was removed from player characters and shifted into CP. I do believe that CP give us too much power, sustain, durability, etc, but I also believe that non-CP leaves us with too little for true build diversity to exist.

To me, the design of the CP system feels sloppy.

Derra · May 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

Xsorus · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

You could create some interesting High Sustain Builds even in 1.5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T7jSMuYv4

1:52 in this video....I'm running what is basically back then 170+ stamina recovery...Well past the soft cap.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · May 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

You could create some interesting High Sustain Builds even in 1.5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T7jSMuYv4

1:52 in this video....I'm running what is basically back then 170+ stamina recovery...Well past the soft cap.

OH look. Interesting, involved fights using resource management that don't last only 2 seconds because of ridiculous burst and dragon blood actually worth slotting. Take me back to this paradise.

Xsorus · May 2016

Thoughts on IC Changes

I want to add Flavor to each District.

1. Arena District - This one becomes like a Battle Ground system. 20 vs 20 vs 20 is the Cap..A Scoreboard keeps tracks of the kills here, and every 30 minutes rewards the top players in the district and the Faction that holds onto the district the most. Every time the District is captured 3 Random Players are chosen from the 3 Factions and thrown in the Arena in the center to fight it out to the death. It is completely random on who gets thrown in here so its luck of the draw on skill and builds. The Winner gets a chest after defeating his enemies with random loot inside.

2. Arboretum District - This district has an Abundance of Poison and Alchemy Materials thrown about... However they've been tainted by the Daedre here and work like the Tel Var system..If you die while carrying these materials they're given 100% of them. However the only way to cleanse these materials is by holding into the District itself and depositing them into a Cauldron. The Materials are cleansed once every 5 minutes and this Cauldron can be captured and the contents split among those capturing it. Faction Cap for this zone is 12vs12vs12

3. Templar District - This zone works like an Escort Mission. Faction Cap is 12vs12vs12. Your goal is the control of the priests in this District. There are 6 Priests. Controlling them grants the faction owners of that District bonus Tel Var Stones/Alliance Points. It also applies a Buff to the players who captures the Priest for that District that rewards them with 5% of Tel Var Stones/Alliance Points earned in that District every 5 Minutes for 20 Minutes. Basically if 5000 Telvar stones are earned in say the Arena district. Every 5 minutes you'll get 5% of whats earned there as a Bonus to your character.

4. Nobles District - This zone has the wealth of the Nobles locked away in Chests. Faction Cap is 20vs20vs20. the Goal of this zone is unlock the chests in the ruined buildings and around the area. You're looking for a special Chalice that one of the Nobles Possessed. Finding this Chalice gives the wielder of it magical powers that strengths(a stacking buff) the user for every Kill he/her makes. Once X amount of Stacks are Achieved the Zone is Captured for that Faction and the Chalice disintegrates to spawn again. However the person who previously held the chalice maintains his buffs till the new chalice holder achieves the max stacks. Dying while in possession of the chalice drops it on the ground and transfers it plus any stacks you managed to get over to the new Wielder of the Chalice. Wielding the Chalice also attracts any nearby NPC and they attack only the wielder of the Chalice and no one else. Capturing the District rewards the players of this District a Large amount of Tel Var stones.

5. Elven Gardens District - This District is in Possession of a large amount of Special Siege that can be used in Cyrodiil. The Faction cap is 24vs24vs24 and the goal is to Capture the plans for this Siege. The plans are held by Special NPCs noted on the map. Killing them Drops a chest that rewards players with the Siege Weapons. However there is a magical Treasure Goblin somewhere in the city that can be killed wiping out the other two factions gained Special Siege Blue Prints. This goblin is not aggressive and can be Guarded by other Factions..However he takes bonus magical Damage from players dying around him. So Beware when defending him.

6. Memorial District - This Districts Undead are sapping the power of the Players fighting in it. The Faction Cap for this zone is 24vs24vs24. AOE abilities in this zone do 90% less damage. However dying in this city sets off an Explosion around you that damages everyone....including players of the opposite Faction (think vicious death if it also damaged the player who killed the other player) This Explosion is powered by other players in the area..Meaning if you're fighting a 1v1 it does barely any damage. However if you die with 10 Players around you, No matter what the faction they will die basically. Killing Players of your own faction via this explosion results in a stat debuff that stacks. (Meaning if i see two players fighting; one of own faction..and I help him kill the other player..and that player sets off an explosion and it kills my faction player..I get a stacking debuff). Capturing this district results in a AP/Tel Var Bonus similar to capturing a Keep

DisgracefulMind · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

You're right, it'd be an outright mess to go through and modify/fix/change, and it'd probably bring the game into a worse state; just overall sounds like a nightmare. I guess what I just enjoy most about the nonCP campaign is that I feel like you have to manage yourself more. But then again, I suppose I could see your point with sorcerer (which is what I'm assuming you're talking about) having more room for mistakes in the campaign, thought not in every situation, but on any other class it's much the opposite of that. I don't think the nonCP campaign is perfect, I just feel that it's a good example of a target for the game to be at.

Rune_Relic · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

They could base resoruce off health magicka stamina
But regen off health+magicka stamina+magicka and health+magicka...ie Not magicka, not stamina and not health.
That way if you go totally nuts into any one resource you automatically cripple its regen.
If you go too far into hyrbid you cripple power....no change there.

DDuke · May 2016

Enjoyed watching the podcast & I can agree with most of the things said.

But I must disagree with the notion some of you raised about stamina nightblade being overpowered.

This is true in certain situations only.

When you fight someone you cannot burst down due to high mitigation/health pool, you are going to lose in the long run.

This is because nightblades suffer from the same problem as stamina sorcerers: no Major Mending.

You cannot outdps a stamina DK or a templar with Vigor & Rally up in a duel, where as they can easily put enough pressure in to kill you if they keep you out of invisibility (which is really easy given how buggy cloak is currently).

Personally, I consider stamina nightblades the easiest class to beat on my magicka templar.

So it's very much a matter of perspective, and if the meta shifts more towards heavy armor (and higher health pools) people are going to be less angry about nightblades.

That said, I can see the new Incapacitating Strike being somewhat ridiculous & I hope they tone it down before patch is out.

Xsorus · May 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

You could create some interesting High Sustain Builds even in 1.5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T7jSMuYv4

1:52 in this video....I'm running what is basically back then 170+ stamina recovery...Well past the soft cap.

OH look. Interesting, involved fights using resource management that don't last only 2 seconds because of ridiculous burst and dragon blood actually worth slotting. Take me back to this paradise.

And I was Stamina Back then, which was considered *** by most players....Using a set virtually no one ran, or thought of running on a Nord and it was viable......I miss Stat Caps

Enraged_Tiki_Torch · May 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

They could base resoruce off health magicka stamina
But regen off health+magicka stamina+magicka and health+magicka...ie Not magicka, not stamina and not health.

Double-dipping? You must be a Templar.

Jaronking · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Enjoyed watching the podcast & I can agree with most of the things said.

But I must disagree with the notion some of you raised about stamina nightblade being overpowered.

This is true in certain situations only.

When you fight someone you cannot burst down due to high mitigation/health pool, you are going to lose in the long run.

This is because nightblades suffer from the same problem as stamina sorcerers: no Major Mending.

You cannot outdps a stamina DK or a templar with Vigor & Rally up in a duel, where as they can easily put enough pressure in to kill you if they keep you out of invisibility (which is really easy given how buggy cloak is currently).

Personally, I consider stamina nightblades the easiest class to beat on my magicka templar.

So it's very much a matter of perspective, and if the meta shifts more towards heavy armor (and higher health pools) people are going to be less angry about nightblades.

That said, I can see the new Incapacitating Strike being somewhat ridiculous & I hope they tone it down before patch is out.

People magica NB can do this with Soul Harvest now.So why is it such a big deal that stamina can now do it as well?

Also I believe @FENGRUSH problem with stamina NB and the others is that their the only really complete class compare to the rest and have a good balance between Stamina and Magica.Which shows ZOS can balance a class between the two but in the case of Stam Sorc they just refuse to balance the class and give it something worthwhile to use.

Xsorus · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Enjoyed watching the podcast & I can agree with most of the things said.

But I must disagree with the notion some of you raised about stamina nightblade being overpowered.

This is true in certain situations only.

When you fight someone you cannot burst down due to high mitigation/health pool, you are going to lose in the long run.

This is because nightblades suffer from the same problem as stamina sorcerers: no Major Mending.

You cannot outdps a stamina DK or a templar with Vigor & Rally up in a duel, where as they can easily put enough pressure in to kill you if they keep you out of invisibility (which is really easy given how buggy cloak is currently).

Personally, I consider stamina nightblades the easiest class to beat on my magicka templar.

So it's very much a matter of perspective, and if the meta shifts more towards heavy armor (and higher health pools) people are going to be less angry about nightblades.

That said, I can see the new Incapacitating Strike being somewhat ridiculous & I hope they tone it down before patch is out.

People magica NB can do this with Soul Harvest now.So why is it such a big deal that stamina can now do it as well?

Also I believe @FENGRUSH problem with stamina NB and the others is that their the only really complete class compare to the rest and have a good balance between Stamina and Magica.Which shows ZOS can balance a class between the two but in the case of Stam Sorc they just refuse to balance the class and give it something worthwhile to use.

Think it's because soul harvest doesn't have nearly the power as incap strike

Derra · May 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I disagree so much with what was said about the nonCP campaign. There are damage builds, but balancing sustain and damage is not easy in that campaign. The general rule for no CP is to build for sustain, because, if not, you WILL run out of resources. I don't see how anyone is going in with a full damage spec and not running out of magicka in there. There is no infinite sustain there. I don't buy that for one second.

Most Sorcerers are running Engine OR Lich to keep up. I run, typically, 2.3k regen, and still will run out of resources quite often when outnumbered. I was a sorcerer empress with 4k regen and still would get down to 10% in rough situations quite often. Typical sorcerer shields there don't go over 9k for hardened ward. The shield duration being shortened is fine by me, good sorcs will be able to handle it, but it's going to drain a sorcerer's resources more than it does now in nonCP, and I think that point needs to be made clear. Sorcerer's are going to have to play extremely more carefully, which is perfect.

There is no running full damage because you end up, even with seducer's on, with barely 1800 recovery on a magicka build, and that 1800 recovery isn't anything because your skills are so expensive. Go play a magicka nightblade in there with full seducer's and 2 regen enchants and see how resource management is. I run a full regen build on my Templar when healing our group and STILL run out of magicka. I tried playing my Templar with the Kag's/Willpower/Kena/Bloodspawn/Torug's setup. With 2 regen enchants that gives you barely 1700 recovery, and about 1800 on repentance bar. That alone will run you out of magicka extremely fast.

Now imagine that with the increased costs happening with DB patch. It's going to be worse on resource management for nonCP, which is fine, of course. Resources SHOULD be managed better.

Now let's talk about stamina builds. I run a stamina NB on nonCP as well. I can get 2500 recovery, but I'm not going to hit over 3k weapon damage. Even that sometimes feels like it's not enough. You can't cloak more than twice, if even that, and you'll be drained of resources quickly. You have to play more carefully as a stamina build in there, which is totally fine.

If anything, resource management across the board should be exactly like the nonCP. There are plenty of excellent and experienced players who play there and they will run out of resources at some point. There is none of this super high damage and super high sustain problem like there is on CP campaigns. And if players DO hit stupid hard, then believe that they'll die in a split second too. But, personally, the only thing that has one-shot me on that campaign, on any class, is emperor siege. And that's after basically living in the nonCP campaign since it's come out. I wish more people played there so they could see what real balance is in this game.

Just my general opinion on resource management in the nonCP campaigns. I think the campaigns are a good example as to how the game should be overall.

I agree that non-CP is a lot better and a very good standard for the game, but it could be a little better in my opinion as far as how damage is handled and even resources with certain set ups.

It is a lot better than CP based PvP.

Derra wrote: »

So your opinion is there should be 1 obvious stamina set choice aswell as 1 obvious magica set choice because everything else will put you at a disadvantage hardly to overcome if at all?

Imo the non CP campaign is even more zergy than non CP (which is quite an achievement tbh) and it promotes having the correct race+spec choice even more.
For example i don´t see how any other race could keep up with the regen i have on my redguard NB there (25k stam, 2500reg + 700sth on procc every three sec 3.1k weapondmg 19k hp). WIth resource management becoming even tighter next patch it´s only going to widen this gap further.

For me the non CP campaign just removes most of the interesting set/theorycrafting options which results in homogenisation of builds which i personally find not desireable and boring.

You're both saying somewhat the same thing, and I actually agree. I would like to see nonCP worked on a bit more, allowing more diverse options of set-ups and builds. But this is the in-depth problem that a lot of people have with the game, ZoS can't seem to manage allowing diversity without allowing the infinite sustain builds that allow stacked damage as well.

But, overall, I think one of the most appealing aspect of non CP is that the campaign punishes you for your mistakes, and I like that. You have to play with more awareness to your resource pools. There are plenty of times that I see a sorcerer trying to streak multiple times in a row, and I know that I've won the fight because he's now wasted his magicka pool. Or a stamina build roll dodges far too much and is now out of stamina. I've made the mistakes as well. I find a lot more skill in the gameplay rather than having unlimited resources, but that is just my opinion, and I do respect other ones.

I would like to see them pay a bit more attention to nonCP and work a bit more on it, or to at least introduce sets that allowed more choices. I'm not sure about EU, but NA's nonCP isn't more zergy than Trueflame or Haderus; large scale fights happen without lag. I just wish there was a more balanced population.

Funny - simply bc of my classchoice i have the complete opposite feeling about the campaign. On non CP i can make a lot more mistakes because the game is slower and more forgiving than it is on the CP-enabled camps.

But that might also be my approach on building templates/builds. Create infinite sustain and add dmg or utility from there (has been the same since 3p seducer cost reduce + wormcult).
I don´t think the game can get rid of infinite sustain builds ever. Not even softcaps will help. The longest duels i had were back in 1.4/1.5 days when softcaps theoretically kept regen in place.

To get rid of infinite sustain they would have to revisit every defensive ability and massively increase their cost compared to dmging abilities. This however would create a world of pain in the attempt to balance things like burning embers, sweeps, funnel health etc...

You could create some interesting High Sustain Builds even in 1.5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4T7jSMuYv4

1:52 in this video....I'm running what is basically back then 170+ stamina recovery...Well past the soft cap.

Awesome example - that was exactly what i meant though. Maybe i´ve worded that a little poor.

Infinite sustain was always possible since they first revisited set bonuses in 1.2 or 1.3? That´s why i don´t think there is a way to effectively get rid of these even when considering softcaps and the like.
All it does is slow down the game.
On no CP it has reached a point (again - was the case in 1.5 aswell) where certain builds are no longer able to kill each other bc sustain is still infinite but dmg is too low.

Derra · May 2016

On the stream:

King Richards comment on shields with them not being refreshable.
Please thinkg about this suggestion and builds that do not stack three shields. You´d just remove the possibility to play with 1 shield alltogether.

Just not stackable. It does not raise as many problems.

Jaronking · May 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Enjoyed watching the podcast & I can agree with most of the things said.

But I must disagree with the notion some of you raised about stamina nightblade being overpowered.

This is true in certain situations only.

When you fight someone you cannot burst down due to high mitigation/health pool, you are going to lose in the long run.

This is because nightblades suffer from the same problem as stamina sorcerers: no Major Mending.

You cannot outdps a stamina DK or a templar with Vigor & Rally up in a duel, where as they can easily put enough pressure in to kill you if they keep you out of invisibility (which is really easy given how buggy cloak is currently).

Personally, I consider stamina nightblades the easiest class to beat on my magicka templar.

So it's very much a matter of perspective, and if the meta shifts more towards heavy armor (and higher health pools) people are going to be less angry about nightblades.

That said, I can see the new Incapacitating Strike being somewhat ridiculous & I hope they tone it down before patch is out.

People magica NB can do this with Soul Harvest now.So why is it such a big deal that stamina can now do it as well?

Also I believe @FENGRUSH problem with stamina NB and the others is that their the only really complete class compare to the rest and have a good balance between Stamina and Magica.Which shows ZOS can balance a class between the two but in the case of Stam Sorc they just refuse to balance the class and give it something worthwhile to use.

Think it's because soul harvest doesn't have nearly the power as incap strike

What their pretty much the same ability and does the same if not more damage then incap.Only thing Soul doesn't have is the stun and in exchange they have ultimate regen.So their pretty much the same scale one just scale differently.

HeroOfNone · May 2016

I will start off saying things were a lot less salty than previous podcasts. Hopefully playing some other games gave better focus on what you want out of ESO. I'll try to cover a few thoughts I had in stream and after, apologies if I jump around.

Non-CP Campaign

You touched on part of the issue that it's a bit more balanced, but you missed the part where both regens, crit, and damage is reduced and a lot of CP builds no longer work, which is why a lot of folks prefer it. It may seem trivial in the numbers, but it means glass canon builds aren't putting folks in execute range as often, nightblades need to be careful committing to a gank, a drawn out fight isn't leasing into a crit rush. These things stack, which I think is why it feels a lot more balanced on the non CP campaign to the CP campaigns.

Also as a side note, a lot of major PVP guilds boycotted the non-CP campaign, because they lacked their high CP advantage. This meant that for a while you weren't facing off against 24+ man groups in TeamSpeak. That may have changed in the last few weeks however.

Damage shields

There was talk about not refreshing damage shields till they go off, but that is problematic with how damage is calculated after a shield drops. As we know, damage that hits a shield is uncrittable and doesn't mitigate except for special abilities. This means that if you have an ability that I'd going to hit you for 9k with a 1k damage shield up its going to hit you for 8k damage, regardless if you have 10k resistance or 32k resistance. This puts almost any class in danger since you normally get some form of mitigation as long as you wear something. Shield stacking will help prevent this, but if we're disallowing damage shields yo be reapplied while they are still up you're opening some sorcs up for some major pain. Maybe if they way damage shields acted was change, then preventing them from reapplying would make more sense.

Poisons

Yes they are too powerful now and it's a noted bug, however you seemed to gloss over a major game changer in game that addresses your earlier complaints. If we take out the damage element to poison and look at the cost increase to stamina/magicka abilities, we now have a way to sinkhole enemy resources. This is right after a discussion saying the regens are too high. Look at these again, this is after the siege changes (reduce stamina and magicka). My guess is this will lead to future abilitychanges to offer similar effects and possibly more balance to the infinite resource issue.

Sorc being ignored, rise of the DK

I understand if you play a sorc you may not like this next patch giving you a lot, however they did just update docs a bit last DLC and they really seemed to focus on the DK lines. This is the typical cycle, highlight one class, give moderate changes to 2 classes, minor changes to the last. I wouldn't bring it up if there weren't complaints previously that some changes get stacked on way too fast with these DLCs and folks can't adapt as well. But thus pattern seems pretty well controlled in how it works. Requiring only a few in weaker positions to respec.

Heavy armor mitigation

Already using some of the thoughts I put out there. However one suggestion you may have missed was giving heavy armor the ability to reduce the critical chance, in addition to reducing critical damage. This would make Inpen still useful on its own while making heavy armor unique against a glass cannon.

Major evasion, shuffle & mirage

Didn't hear much talk on major evasion, but it's something that will probably need to be addressed eventually. It is a meta defense inside PVP and something most PVP streamers will use, which suggests that it's too powerful. I've put out suggestions on changes for it but I doubt most will want to lose it as a crutch. If you're not sure if it is a crutch, play a night without it and see how bad your survivability drops.

Imperial city battlegrounds

Thank you for bringing this up again, but keep in mind this hasn't had terrific support on the forums. Maybe since the PVE folks got their telvar more will be interested changing it over, but we seem to be arguing over things like pizza toppings. I'll just leave me last posts from the PTS servers and here the alliance forums. Canibalize what you need

ZOS doesn't listen to the community/posting on the forums

I've argued with you in chat on this before and honestly I don't feel you have listened to me on this topic everytime it comes up. ZOS has taken a lot of suggestions on the forums and implimented them in game. They are not always what we expected and it's not in a timely fashion compared to what we're used to on social media. But I think it's time to dispell the myth they don't listen to the community. If you don't believe me just look at some of the changes in the DB DLC and requested changes

Now if you want to do what @Sypher suggested and post a set of major patch notes of suggested changes to imperial city I will more that support and promote it with you. Keep in mind the community response to battlegrounds has been Luke warm in the past but that can change if you mobilize your viewer base to bump up topics, offer ideas, retweet, upvote on reddit etc. You need to show ZOS management that there is a clear desire and that your viewers are actual ESO players, and not just trolls with a bunch of twitch accounts. If this seems like too much work and if some of you have moved over to other games I understand if you don't want to commit the time to it, but please don't come back complaining ZOS isn't listening to someone that can't put forth the effort to write it down.

Well, that's enough words for one post to handle. Thanks for the podcast @Sypher @FENGRUSH @Lefty_Lucy @rishardnelsonb14_ESO