this thread is too funny how bout we just get rid of levels and progression and have everything at level 3 so everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy.

Please show CP but we shouldn't see more CP than the CAP ie if someone has 600CP we should only see 501 CP.

Another option is maybe Gear Score many MMOs use it would that satisfy people ie a legendary(yellow) VR 16 armor piece would be 1,000 GS so if you had all yellow gear that would be your "level" either way whether we like it or not there has too be some way to gauge another players progression.

Vangy wrote: »

CP ranks need to be displayed or you wouldnt know if someone is capable of doing certain content....

Content should not be tied to CPs! That was one of the worst features of VR, and something that VR removal should be removing. CPs are supposed to be a measure of progression, not a content gate. You gain CPs to increase your adaptability, you shouldn't have to have a certain number of CPs to be viable to access certain content. VRs became a grind exactly because they became content gates; if CPs turn into the same thing, removal of VR will have achieved nothing (aside from making progression account-wide, which they could have done anyway).

Enodoc wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

CP ranks need to be displayed or you wouldnt know if someone is capable of doing certain content....

Content should not be tied to CPs! That was one of the worst features of VR, and something that VR removal should be removing. CPs are supposed to be a measure of progression, not a content gate. You gain CPs to increase your adaptability, you shouldn't have to have a certain number of CPs to be viable to access certain content. VRs became a grind exactly because they became content gates; if CPs turn into the same thing, removal of VR will have achieved nothing (aside from making progression account-wide, which they could have done anyway).

Exactly.

Enodoc wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

CP ranks need to be displayed or you wouldnt know if someone is capable of doing certain content....

Content should not be tied to CPs! That was one of the worst features of VR, and something that VR removal should be removing. CPs are supposed to be a measure of progression, not a content gate. You gain CPs to increase your adaptability, you shouldn't have to have a certain number of CPs to be viable to access certain content. VRs became a grind exactly because they became content gates; if CPs turn into the same thing, removal of VR will have achieved nothing (aside from making progression account-wide, which they could have done anyway).

I totally get your pov. But as Long as cp system is as strong as it currently is, it will always be a content gate. Paint it how you will but bonuses like 25% increase damage, 25 % reduced damage, 25% increased healing etc etc can't be looked over. Plus, gear is going to be cp gated as far as I know. Essentially in the future, a higher cp player is going to be a higher "vet level" then a lower cp player. No matter how you cut it, devs need to balance future content with the cp cap at the time in mind. This means someone close to cap will have an easier time and someone far from cap is going to have a much harder time. Sure you can do v16 wgt with a battle scaled v1 toon but is it going to be easy? Hell no. And 80% of the people are going to insta kick you unless you are guildies or irl friends.

Essentially cp levels were made to replace vr levels. Gear, content difficulty, crafting even, all will be balanced around the cp cap. As Long as the above remains true, cp allocated needs to be displayed just like vet levels were. Now, if the devs came up with some awesome system where a cp 100 player is on even footing with a cp 500 player while gear didn't really matter, then yeah we can ignore how much cp one has..... But so far that dosent seem to be the case...

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

There is literally no value in displaying Cp. it's great for you to see your own but it's the absolute worse piece of misinformation.

The whole point of removing VR was to remove VR. That's any post 50 level indicators too.

IF ZOS really wants to display something, then use level 50

Oh, there is value in displaying champion points. There is just no value in displaying more than is spent on the character.

I disagree.
The only value is if instead of displaying a CP number used, you could inspect the actual CP Passives in use.
The number has no value and only will cause assumptions and produce a cookie cutter build or you get excluded.

I did not say the value was absolute, but there is a value in finding out how many CP are allocated. It tells a lot more about the character than no CP information. That gives it value, even if not absolute.

The same value applies to skill points and attribute points that are allocated vs awarded, by the way, but there is really no way to handle that. We must assume this based on the character level.

I really believe that the game depends upon the build specifics being a secret. Makes the game more interesting when you cannot simply inspect the details of who you are with. I would be fine with dropping ALL level indications, including the 1-49 level of all players and NPCs. That would likely cause premature baldness in a segment of the population, though.

Enodoc wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

CP ranks need to be displayed or you wouldnt know if someone is capable of doing certain content....

Content should not be tied to CPs! That was one of the worst features of VR, and something that VR removal should be removing. CPs are supposed to be a measure of progression, not a content gate. You gain CPs to increase your adaptability, you shouldn't have to have a certain number of CPs to be viable to access certain content. VRs became a grind exactly because they became content gates; if CPs turn into the same thing, removal of VR will have achieved nothing (aside from making progression account-wide, which they could have done anyway).

I agree, but do not expect that ZOS would. This is why I have been referring to the Champion System as Veteran System 2.0. It is an incremental upgrade to what we had, not something new. The main changes in the new version are bigger numbers (1-3600 instead of 1-16) and they now reflect the player level instead of the character level. My assumption is that "end game" content will be tied to player level instead of character level, from this point on.

RebornV3x wrote: »

Another option is maybe Gear Score many MMOs use it would that satisfy people ie a legendary(yellow) VR 16 armor piece would be 1,000 GS so if you had all yellow gear that would be your "level" either way whether we like it or not there has too be some way to gauge another players progression.

With CP, this might be easier to do. They have tied itemization to champion points, so they can average all of the equipment CP and generate an "average CP" for gear. Unfortunately, I doubt they scale the itemization linearly.

Merlight wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

CP ranks need to be displayed or you wouldnt know if someone is capable of doing certain content....

Content should not be tied to CPs! That was one of the worst features of VR, and something that VR removal should be removing. CPs are supposed to be a measure of progression, not a content gate. You gain CPs to increase your adaptability, you shouldn't have to have a certain number of CPs to be viable to access certain content. VRs became a grind exactly because they became content gates; if CPs turn into the same thing, removal of VR will have achieved nothing (aside from making progression account-wide, which they could have done anyway).

Well, not with this Champion System.

What does 1 VR give you? Stats, an attribute point you can spend to increase one of your stats, access to better gear (=stats), and a skill point.

What do 10 CPs give you? Stats, 10 points you can spend to increase your other stats, and soon access to better gear (=stats). The passives are stupid, no choices, no trade-offs.

In the end, champion points are just more fine-grained veteran ranks, minus skill points.

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use. CP's have a lot of varying impacts. Its not logical to change things to require specific placement of CP's because then, these should just be base increased with a numerical level change instead of a passive "optional" point to utilize as you see fit.

When you gain a character level and when you use a stat point, these are the only scenario's that progress you character in a universal measurement. Whether you use the stat point or not, the bases increase with each level and then are enhanced by the placement of a stat point.

CP's are no different than gear progression bonuses. Thats why it does make sense to use CP for a gear requirement to equip but it doesn't not make sense to set a CP numeric on a player or NPC head.

Live today, gear falls based on the zone and/or the NPC numeric level but in a VR zone un-phased. The gear that drops isn't always something you can equip. There is a range of allowable drops in the zone/pool. In phased environments today. the player level has a big impact on loot tables and that will change to have a much larger impact with character level and for crafting passive levels too.

If we are all level 50 and the NPC's range from 49-56 the same pool applies with the same logic.
If you move to a CP NPC and player level then you end up right back in a situation where content becomes irrelevant from a CP appearance. You're getting items far below the NPC level which then losses logic when a CP cap is changed because now all content has to be reworked on loot tables. If you're in there and a change occurs it creates a problem that shouldn't exist. What good is it to change VR16 to CP 160 when the gear that drops requires CP of 160 but you are actually CP 300 - 501?

Why not just use a NPC numeric and as ZOS see's fit to increase content, the NPC levels increase while we stay at 50 but the CP's exponentially increase the cap. A 50+ point increase isn't noticeable but a 150 is and so to me that is one logical way to display progression and keep CP's as they are and actually remove the problem VR level created.

Showing a CP on the player and or an NPC is not the direction this game should take.
example:

Queue for random Vet dungeon or normal dungeon.
-group is scaled up to level 50 (not CP 160 because no one is getting extra CP's)
-Sure ZOS can enhance the CP's applied bonuses but is this based on having all 50, 75 or 100 points in CP's? That also isn't balanced and never can be balanced even with the most complex equations because CP's differ. Now the player who has no CP's but is less than 50...what happens there? Stat changes for all, sure but they are missing the CP bonus and if the player and NPC level indicates a CP range, the player is not comparable.

All in all, the CP's just need to stay as they are. VR removal needs to stay at level 50 which is the base set. That is where all the stat and skill points apply that use to come from VR1-16.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

Wrong. CPs allow you to boost stats you previously couldn't, like regeneration, elemental damage etc. on top of resource pool increase. For simplicity, let's say you earn 9 CPs -- that's 3 in each of Mage/Warrior/Thief. When you spend them, no matter how, you'll get raw Magicka/Health/Stamina increase. That's the equivalent of level, veteran rank, whatever you call it.

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

Wrong. CPs allow you to boost stats you previously couldn't, like regeneration, elemental damage etc. on top of resource pool increase. For simplicity, let's say you earn 9 CPs -- that's 3 in each of Mage/Warrior/Thief. When you spend them, no matter how, you'll get raw Magicka/Health/Stamina increase. That's the equivalent of level, veteran rank, whatever you call it.

That isn't a stat attribute.
A stat is one of three, health, stamina and magica and when applied its not the same.

You're speaking of passives and in what you write, that's the problem with trying to use CP as a character or NPC level. There is no basis or logic of what the CP stands for without specific details. So changing a regeneration, resistance, increasing a skill effect or negating the amount of resources required is not in any way a progression that applies evenly regardless of how many CPs a player earns.

Thats the issue, you see CP 100-501 and apply one rationale of how points should be used, where I have another but the player has a third. There are so many combinations of use that the logic behind displaying a CP is nothing more than a confusing indicator.

With VR ranks, you know they have a base of X and then they have use of X amount of stat points and skill points which lead to the understanding of what they should and shouldn't be able to accomplish. CP's don't and will not work that way based on live and PTS. Also, the VR1 - 16 base is level 50 now so until new progression is added in gear, materials, etc, there is no need to use anything more than 50 as level 50 literally is the calculation of a VR16.

CP's is something else entirely different and it should stay as such.

.

Roymachine wrote: »

RebornV3x wrote: »

this thread is too funny how bout we just get rid of levels and progression and have everything at level 3 so everyone can feel all warm and fuzzy.

Please show CP but we shouldn't see more CP than the CAP ie if someone has 600CP we should only see 501 CP.

Another option is maybe Gear Score many MMOs use it would that satisfy people ie a legendary(yellow) VR 16 armor piece would be 1,000 GS so if you had all yellow gear that would be your "level" either way whether we like it or not there has too be some way to gauge another players progression.

Oh man I can already hear the crying if they implement GS. That could end significantly worse than showing CP.

They have talked about wanting to do all the player gear ranking. I suspect they will eventually implement it, mainly because they may need it internally for scaling. I am sure it will drive a number of players away from group content. I guess the question is whether it will drive away more than it attracts.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

Wrong. CPs allow you to boost stats you previously couldn't, like regeneration, elemental damage etc. on top of resource pool increase. For simplicity, let's say you earn 9 CPs -- that's 3 in each of Mage/Warrior/Thief. When you spend them, no matter how, you'll get raw Magicka/Health/Stamina increase. That's the equivalent of level, veteran rank, whatever you call it.

That isn't a stat attribute.
A stat is one of three, health, stamina and magica and when applied its not the same.

You're speaking of passives and in what you write, that's the problem with trying to use CP as a character or NPC level. There is no basis or logic of what the CP stands for without specific details. So changing a regeneration, resistance, increasing a skill effect or negating the amount of resources required is not in any way a progression that applies evenly regardless of how many CPs a player earns.

Now you're playing with words, and are again wrong.
1. CPs do increase health, stamina and magicka;
2. every character has many more stats than those three: 3. I'm not arguing about those other stats. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the ability to shape your character by focusing on more specialized stats is the only good thing about the champion system. Except for the magnitude of the CP bonuses, that is sick. It could have provided for more variety, if it weren't dumbed down to pure power grind.

Destruent wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

They do....With 501 CP you have ~18% increased Stats.

@Destruent
gaining 10 CP's dont auto apply anything, using the CP in specific passives cant raise passives but its not in comparison to 1-50 levels. Its not automatic so its not applied to all who are at X CP level.

Refer to my signature for my view on this thread and its author. If they want to show CP's, I have no issues with that.

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

Wrong. CPs allow you to boost stats you previously couldn't, like regeneration, elemental damage etc. on top of resource pool increase. For simplicity, let's say you earn 9 CPs -- that's 3 in each of Mage/Warrior/Thief. When you spend them, no matter how, you'll get raw Magicka/Health/Stamina increase. That's the equivalent of level, veteran rank, whatever you call it.

That isn't a stat attribute.
A stat is one of three, health, stamina and magica and when applied its not the same.

You're speaking of passives and in what you write, that's the problem with trying to use CP as a character or NPC level. There is no basis or logic of what the CP stands for without specific details. So changing a regeneration, resistance, increasing a skill effect or negating the amount of resources required is not in any way a progression that applies evenly regardless of how many CPs a player earns.

Now you're playing with words, and are again wrong.
1. CPs do increase health, stamina and magicka;
2. every character has many more stats than those three:

h5. DerivedStats
* STAT_ARMOR_RATING
* STAT_ATTACK_POWER
* STAT_BLOCK
* STAT_CRITICAL_RESISTANCE
* STAT_CRITICAL_STRIKE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_COLD
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_DISEASE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_DROWN
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_EARTH
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_FIRE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_GENERIC
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_MAGIC
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_OBLIVION
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_PHYSICAL
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_POISON
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_SHOCK
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_START
* STAT_DODGE
* STAT_HEALING_TAKEN
* STAT_HEALTH_MAX
* STAT_HEALTH_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_HEALTH_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_MAGICKA_MAX
* STAT_MAGICKA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_MAGICKA_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_MISS
* STAT_MITIGATION
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_MAX
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_REGEN_MOVING
* STAT_NONE
* STAT_PARRY
* STAT_PHYSICAL_PENETRATION
* STAT_PHYSICAL_RESIST
* STAT_POWER
* STAT_SPELL_CRITICAL
* STAT_SPELL_MITIGATION
* STAT_SPELL_PENETRATION
* STAT_SPELL_POWER
* STAT_SPELL_RESIST
* STAT_STAMINA_MAX
* STAT_STAMINA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_STAMINA_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_WEAPON_AND_SPELL_DAMAGE

3. I'm not arguing about those other stats. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the ability to shape your character by focusing on more specialized stats is the only good thing about the champion system. Except for the magnitude of the CP bonuses, that is sick. It could have provided for more variety, if it weren't dumbed down to pure power grind.

@Merlight
Sorry its not a play on words. I think you're are discussing a different topic than I. I'm focused on the indicator and how scaling doesn't apply to this new indicator on those "Stats". I think you're discussing what happens when someone applies a CP point to a passive.

The discussion goes about group content where one player has a different CP indicator than the other, so expectations and assumptions apply resulting in omitting players or flocking to other based on the CP indicator.

the results are that CP isn't the indicator that should be used because it doesn't relate to "stats" in the way the current VR scaling applies which is based on health, stamina and magica. Those produce calculations on the gear that make a player scaled. That stats that are changed in scaled in environments are:

Sept 2014 concept of scaling
November2014 (monster health / power scaling)
March 2015 (specific to stat and skill points)

"Accompanying the Champion System are gameplay improvements, fixes, and re-balancing. This will alter the way you’ve previously played as every ability has been amended in some fashion, differences in armor are more pronounced, critical attack and defense are handled differently, and the scale of numbers across the board has changed. Due to these changes, we will be resetting all skill and attribute points."

"Game Re-balance


With the introduction of the Champion System, the basic attributes that make up characters and monsters have been altered. For the most part, these values work the same way they always have, but now have different values and scales.
As an example, Health, Magicka and Stamina each perform the same way they did previously:
Health keeps you alive
Stamina allows you to block, sneak, dodge and use weapon feats
Magicka allows you to cast spells.
We updated the ratios on all stats. Items and stats now give 10% more health than magicka and stamina, when they previously gave 50% more.
For example, instead of 20 health per level and 15 health per stat pick, you now get 156 health per level and 122 health per stat pick.
Additionally, abilities now increase in cost as you gain Veteran Ranks.
Block, dodge, sprint, break free, and crouch all cost slightly more with this increase.
There are a few stats that now work slightly different:
Armor: The amount of mitigation provided by Armor has changed.
A piece of Light Armor grants 1/4th of the mitigation of an equivalent piece of Heavy Armor.
A piece of Medium Armor grants 3/4th of the mitigation of Heavy Armor.
Spell Resistance: Instead of having a base amount of Spell Resistance that grows as you level, Spell Resistance is now provided by Armor on a 1 to 1 basis.
For example, if a piece of gear gives you 2000 Armor, it also gives 2000 Spell Resistance.
Passive skills in both the Light Armor and Heavy Armor skill lines will modify this ratio.
Critical Strike/Spell Critical: Previously, each 10 points of these attributes would give a 1% chance to cause a Critical Hit to their target. This is no longer true and has changed.
The amount of Critical Strike/Spell Critical required to get a 1% increased chance to cause a critical hit now increases per level.
Precise Weapons that have a lower Required Level than the player character than owns it will provide less actual benefit.
A Critical Hit still does 50% greater damage unless modified.
You will now have a base Critical Hit chance of 10%.
Critical Resistance: This attribute no longer reduces the chance to be hit by a Critical hit.
Critical Resistance now reduces the bonus damage caused by a Critical hit, and with enough, can reduce the bonus damage to 0.
The amount of Critical Resistance required to completely eliminate the unmodified bonus damage from a Critical hit is 50 * (your Character Level + your Veteran Rank number).
For example, a VR14 would be 50 * (50 + 14).
As part of the overall rebalance, a certain amount of power in each area was reserved for the Champion System. Completely maxing out any one stat will not only require a lot of work finding or crafting the perfect gear, it will also require a significant investment into a certain star or constellation in the Champion System.


Other Major Gameplay Changes


Synergy abilities now scale off your highest stats that are either stamina or magicka based. "

"Champion System

While there are many abilities in each of the three constellation groups, the groups each have a general theme.

Points spent in the Warrior will improve your health and overall defensive capabilities.
Points spent in the Thief will improve your stamina and provide an array of useful utility bonuses.
Points spent in the Mage will enhance magicka and provide bonuses to offense and damage dealing."


CP does not work that way because the only way to apply a scaled effect on another player is to quantify the actual effectiveness of the specific CP passives on player selected over another in conjunction with the specific items and skills being used.

Vangy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

Wrong. CPs allow you to boost stats you previously couldn't, like regeneration, elemental damage etc. on top of resource pool increase. For simplicity, let's say you earn 9 CPs -- that's 3 in each of Mage/Warrior/Thief. When you spend them, no matter how, you'll get raw Magicka/Health/Stamina increase. That's the equivalent of level, veteran rank, whatever you call it.

That isn't a stat attribute.
A stat is one of three, health, stamina and magica and when applied its not the same.

You're speaking of passives and in what you write, that's the problem with trying to use CP as a character or NPC level. There is no basis or logic of what the CP stands for without specific details. So changing a regeneration, resistance, increasing a skill effect or negating the amount of resources required is not in any way a progression that applies evenly regardless of how many CPs a player earns.

Now you're playing with words, and are again wrong.
1. CPs do increase health, stamina and magicka;
2. every character has many more stats than those three:

h5. DerivedStats
* STAT_ARMOR_RATING
* STAT_ATTACK_POWER
* STAT_BLOCK
* STAT_CRITICAL_RESISTANCE
* STAT_CRITICAL_STRIKE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_COLD
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_DISEASE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_DROWN
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_EARTH
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_FIRE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_GENERIC
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_MAGIC
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_OBLIVION
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_PHYSICAL
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_POISON
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_SHOCK
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_START
* STAT_DODGE
* STAT_HEALING_TAKEN
* STAT_HEALTH_MAX
* STAT_HEALTH_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_HEALTH_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_MAGICKA_MAX
* STAT_MAGICKA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_MAGICKA_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_MISS
* STAT_MITIGATION
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_MAX
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_REGEN_MOVING
* STAT_NONE
* STAT_PARRY
* STAT_PHYSICAL_PENETRATION
* STAT_PHYSICAL_RESIST
* STAT_POWER
* STAT_SPELL_CRITICAL
* STAT_SPELL_MITIGATION
* STAT_SPELL_PENETRATION
* STAT_SPELL_POWER
* STAT_SPELL_RESIST
* STAT_STAMINA_MAX
* STAT_STAMINA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_STAMINA_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_WEAPON_AND_SPELL_DAMAGE

3. I'm not arguing about those other stats. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the ability to shape your character by focusing on more specialized stats is the only good thing about the champion system. Except for the magnitude of the CP bonuses, that is sick. It could have provided for more variety, if it weren't dumbed down to pure power grind.

@Merlight
Sorry its not a play on words. I think you're are discussing a different topic than I. I'm focused on the indicator and how scaling doesn't apply to this new indicator on those "Stats". I think you're discussing what happens when someone applies a CP point to a passive.

The discussion goes about group content where one player has a different CP indicator than the other, so expectations and assumptions apply resulting in omitting players or flocking to other based on the CP indicator.

the results are that CP isn't the indicator that should be used because it doesn't relate to "stats" in the way the current VR scaling applies which is based on health, stamina and magica. Those produce calculations on the gear that make a player scaled. That stats that are changed in scaled in environments are:

Sept 2014 concept of scaling
November2014 (monster health / power scaling)
March 2015 (specific to stat and skill points)

"Accompanying the Champion System are gameplay improvements, fixes, and re-balancing. This will alter the way you’ve previously played as every ability has been amended in some fashion, differences in armor are more pronounced, critical attack and defense are handled differently, and the scale of numbers across the board has changed. Due to these changes, we will be resetting all skill and attribute points."

"Game Re-balance


With the introduction of the Champion System, the basic attributes that make up characters and monsters have been altered. For the most part, these values work the same way they always have, but now have different values and scales.
As an example, Health, Magicka and Stamina each perform the same way they did previously:
Health keeps you alive
Stamina allows you to block, sneak, dodge and use weapon feats
Magicka allows you to cast spells.
We updated the ratios on all stats. Items and stats now give 10% more health than magicka and stamina, when they previously gave 50% more.
For example, instead of 20 health per level and 15 health per stat pick, you now get 156 health per level and 122 health per stat pick.
Additionally, abilities now increase in cost as you gain Veteran Ranks.
Block, dodge, sprint, break free, and crouch all cost slightly more with this increase.
There are a few stats that now work slightly different:
Armor: The amount of mitigation provided by Armor has changed.
A piece of Light Armor grants 1/4th of the mitigation of an equivalent piece of Heavy Armor.
A piece of Medium Armor grants 3/4th of the mitigation of Heavy Armor.
Spell Resistance: Instead of having a base amount of Spell Resistance that grows as you level, Spell Resistance is now provided by Armor on a 1 to 1 basis.
For example, if a piece of gear gives you 2000 Armor, it also gives 2000 Spell Resistance.
Passive skills in both the Light Armor and Heavy Armor skill lines will modify this ratio.
Critical Strike/Spell Critical: Previously, each 10 points of these attributes would give a 1% chance to cause a Critical Hit to their target. This is no longer true and has changed.
The amount of Critical Strike/Spell Critical required to get a 1% increased chance to cause a critical hit now increases per level.
Precise Weapons that have a lower Required Level than the player character than owns it will provide less actual benefit.
A Critical Hit still does 50% greater damage unless modified.
You will now have a base Critical Hit chance of 10%.
Critical Resistance: This attribute no longer reduces the chance to be hit by a Critical hit.
Critical Resistance now reduces the bonus damage caused by a Critical hit, and with enough, can reduce the bonus damage to 0.
The amount of Critical Resistance required to completely eliminate the unmodified bonus damage from a Critical hit is 50 * (your Character Level + your Veteran Rank number).
For example, a VR14 would be 50 * (50 + 14).
As part of the overall rebalance, a certain amount of power in each area was reserved for the Champion System. Completely maxing out any one stat will not only require a lot of work finding or crafting the perfect gear, it will also require a significant investment into a certain star or constellation in the Champion System.


Other Major Gameplay Changes


Synergy abilities now scale off your highest stats that are either stamina or magicka based. "

"Champion System

While there are many abilities in each of the three constellation groups, the groups each have a general theme.

Points spent in the Warrior will improve your health and overall defensive capabilities.
Points spent in the Thief will improve your stamina and provide an array of useful utility bonuses.
Points spent in the Mage will enhance magicka and provide bonuses to offense and damage dealing."


CP does not work that way because the only way to apply a scaled effect on another player is to quantify the actual effectiveness of the specific CP passives on player selected over another in conjunction with the specific items and skills being used.

Wow that's a whole wall of text but im not getting what you are trying to say.... So you only consider stam/magicka/health as stats? You mention CP arent really stats because even though they increase maximum health/stamina/magicka by ard 18% at 501 CP, they are not the same as putting 1 point into health or mag or stam....? 1 point is like what... 111 points? 18% even at 10k max stam is like 1800.... Thats worth like 16-17 stat points per attribute...?

Even disregarding that isnt health regen a stat? mag regen? stam regen? Phy resist? Impen? weapon damage? Putting 1 point into stam mag or health is nothing compared to just slotting a higher level piece of gear..... And additionally ZOS wants to tie in gear requirements to CP.. It may not be a problem now since the CP for v16 gear is 160... Eventually though they will release a new tier of gear at maybe CP 200 or something. When that happens, there will be trials/content based around that gear cap. So if im forming a group, im going to want people who meet that content's requirements. Ie: CP 200 gear. Wouldnt CP visibility come into play there? Unless ZOS wants to decouple gear from CP I dont see a way around this...

Please read it. It's ZOS patch notes on how champion levels actually work.
It's not an opinion

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Merlight wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

O K now we are getting to the meat.

10 CP's dont give you stats.Thats important because of scaling in different environments and ZOS isn't granting temporary CP's to scale folks so that is the #1 reason why CP's shouldnt be used.

Thats the whole big problem of this concept. Some folks use CP's differently than others.
CP's can offer additional passive bonuses, but it never gives you a stat change like a level gain and stat point use.

Wrong. CPs allow you to boost stats you previously couldn't, like regeneration, elemental damage etc. on top of resource pool increase. For simplicity, let's say you earn 9 CPs -- that's 3 in each of Mage/Warrior/Thief. When you spend them, no matter how, you'll get raw Magicka/Health/Stamina increase. That's the equivalent of level, veteran rank, whatever you call it.

That isn't a stat attribute.
A stat is one of three, health, stamina and magica and when applied its not the same.

You're speaking of passives and in what you write, that's the problem with trying to use CP as a character or NPC level. There is no basis or logic of what the CP stands for without specific details. So changing a regeneration, resistance, increasing a skill effect or negating the amount of resources required is not in any way a progression that applies evenly regardless of how many CPs a player earns.

Now you're playing with words, and are again wrong.
1. CPs do increase health, stamina and magicka;
2. every character has many more stats than those three:

h5. DerivedStats
* STAT_ARMOR_RATING
* STAT_ATTACK_POWER
* STAT_BLOCK
* STAT_CRITICAL_RESISTANCE
* STAT_CRITICAL_STRIKE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_COLD
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_DISEASE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_DROWN
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_EARTH
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_FIRE
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_GENERIC
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_MAGIC
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_OBLIVION
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_PHYSICAL
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_POISON
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_SHOCK
* STAT_DAMAGE_RESIST_START
* STAT_DODGE
* STAT_HEALING_TAKEN
* STAT_HEALTH_MAX
* STAT_HEALTH_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_HEALTH_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_MAGICKA_MAX
* STAT_MAGICKA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_MAGICKA_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_MISS
* STAT_MITIGATION
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_MAX
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_MOUNT_STAMINA_REGEN_MOVING
* STAT_NONE
* STAT_PARRY
* STAT_PHYSICAL_PENETRATION
* STAT_PHYSICAL_RESIST
* STAT_POWER
* STAT_SPELL_CRITICAL
* STAT_SPELL_MITIGATION
* STAT_SPELL_PENETRATION
* STAT_SPELL_POWER
* STAT_SPELL_RESIST
* STAT_STAMINA_MAX
* STAT_STAMINA_REGEN_COMBAT
* STAT_STAMINA_REGEN_IDLE
* STAT_WEAPON_AND_SPELL_DAMAGE

3. I'm not arguing about those other stats. Quite the opposite, actually. I think the ability to shape your character by focusing on more specialized stats is the only good thing about the champion system. Except for the magnitude of the CP bonuses, that is sick. It could have provided for more variety, if it weren't dumbed down to pure power grind.

@Merlight
Sorry its not a play on words. I think you're are discussing a different topic than I. I'm focused on the indicator and how scaling doesn't apply to this new indicator on those "Stats". I think you're discussing what happens when someone applies a CP point to a passive.

The discussion goes about group content where one player has a different CP indicator than the other, so expectations and assumptions apply resulting in omitting players or flocking to other based on the CP indicator.

the results are that CP isn't the indicator that should be used because it doesn't relate to "stats" in the way the current VR scaling applies which is based on health, stamina and magica. Those produce calculations on the gear that make a player scaled. That stats that are changed in scaled in environments are:

Sept 2014 concept of scaling
November2014 (monster health / power scaling)
March 2015 (specific to stat and skill points)

"Accompanying the Champion System are gameplay improvements, fixes, and re-balancing. This will alter the way you’ve previously played as every ability has been amended in some fashion, differences in armor are more pronounced, critical attack and defense are handled differently, and the scale of numbers across the board has changed. Due to these changes, we will be resetting all skill and attribute points."

"Game Re-balance


With the introduction of the Champion System, the basic attributes that make up characters and monsters have been altered. For the most part, these values work the same way they always have, but now have different values and scales.
As an example, Health, Magicka and Stamina each perform the same way they did previously:
Health keeps you alive
Stamina allows you to block, sneak, dodge and use weapon feats
Magicka allows you to cast spells.
We updated the ratios on all stats. Items and stats now give 10% more health than magicka and stamina, when they previously gave 50% more.
For example, instead of 20 health per level and 15 health per stat pick, you now get 156 health per level and 122 health per stat pick.
Additionally, abilities now increase in cost as you gain Veteran Ranks.
Block, dodge, sprint, break free, and crouch all cost slightly more with this increase.
There are a few stats that now work slightly different:
Armor: The amount of mitigation provided by Armor has changed.
A piece of Light Armor grants 1/4th of the mitigation of an equivalent piece of Heavy Armor.
A piece of Medium Armor grants 3/4th of the mitigation of Heavy Armor.
Spell Resistance: Instead of having a base amount of Spell Resistance that grows as you level, Spell Resistance is now provided by Armor on a 1 to 1 basis.
For example, if a piece of gear gives you 2000 Armor, it also gives 2000 Spell Resistance.
Passive skills in both the Light Armor and Heavy Armor skill lines will modify this ratio.
Critical Strike/Spell Critical: Previously, each 10 points of these attributes would give a 1% chance to cause a Critical Hit to their target. This is no longer true and has changed.
The amount of Critical Strike/Spell Critical required to get a 1% increased chance to cause a critical hit now increases per level.
Precise Weapons that have a lower Required Level than the player character than owns it will provide less actual benefit.
A Critical Hit still does 50% greater damage unless modified.
You will now have a base Critical Hit chance of 10%.
Critical Resistance: This attribute no longer reduces the chance to be hit by a Critical hit.
Critical Resistance now reduces the bonus damage caused by a Critical hit, and with enough, can reduce the bonus damage to 0.
The amount of Critical Resistance required to completely eliminate the unmodified bonus damage from a Critical hit is 50 * (your Character Level + your Veteran Rank number).
For example, a VR14 would be 50 * (50 + 14).
As part of the overall rebalance, a certain amount of power in each area was reserved for the Champion System. Completely maxing out any one stat will not only require a lot of work finding or crafting the perfect gear, it will also require a significant investment into a certain star or constellation in the Champion System.


Other Major Gameplay Changes


Synergy abilities now scale off your highest stats that are either stamina or magicka based. "

"Champion System

While there are many abilities in each of the three constellation groups, the groups each have a general theme.

Points spent in the Warrior will improve your health and overall defensive capabilities.
Points spent in the Thief will improve your stamina and provide an array of useful utility bonuses.
Points spent in the Mage will enhance magicka and provide bonuses to offense and damage dealing."


CP does not work that way because the only way to apply a scaled effect on another player is to quantify the actual effectiveness of the specific CP passives on player selected over another in conjunction with the specific items and skills being used.

Wow that's a whole wall of text but im not getting what you are trying to say.... So you only consider stam/magicka/health as stats? You mention CP arent really stats because even though they increase maximum health/stamina/magicka by ard 18% at 501 CP, they are not the same as putting 1 point into health or mag or stam....? 1 point is like what... 111 points? 18% even at 10k max stam is like 1800.... Thats worth like 16-17 stat points per attribute...?

Even disregarding that isnt health regen a stat? mag regen? stam regen? Phy resist? Impen? weapon damage? Putting 1 point into stam mag or health is nothing compared to just slotting a higher level piece of gear..... And additionally ZOS wants to tie in gear requirements to CP.. It may not be a problem now since the CP for v16 gear is 160... Eventually though they will release a new tier of gear at maybe CP 200 or something. When that happens, there will be trials/content based around that gear cap. So if im forming a group, im going to want people who meet that content's requirements. Ie: CP 200 gear. Wouldnt CP visibility come into play there? Unless ZOS wants to decouple gear from CP I dont see a way around this...

Please read it. It's ZOS patch notes on how champion levels actually work.
It's not an opinion

Don't need to read it. Already know how CP works. What I dont get is what you are trying to say by ctrl C + ctrl V-ing a wall of text from ZOS. What is the point you are trying to make? Considering Im getting a few agrees on my previous post, maybe re-wording it or shortening it might make it easier for us to understand.