Lack of ranged stamina builds

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

By design magicka builds are locked to be more ranged, while stamina mostly forced to be mele, which is logical: stam people have huge amount of benefits and now wants not only close combat superiority, but also range combat - it's just bad it's destroying everything which can be considered as 'balance'.

Balance - is situation where choice between magicka and stamina isn't obvious and you have different pros and cons which you must consider.

If you want pew-pew - get magicka, and deal with it's 'problems', which is: no more HoT which heals you for 2k noncrit every second, no more roll-dodge, no more infinite break free, no more major expedition from roll-dodge(you can still get it if you will use bow as weapon, but will you roll dodge to spent insanely precious stamina for it?), etc.

This isn't about having superiority over magic builds. It's about having options.

Magic Dk and Templars play magic builds effectively in MELEE range with heals and shields to help them survive.

Magic Sorcs and to an extent magic NB also play very effectively at RANGE.

Stam builds are only stuck with two options melee or Ganking. Why are you against options? The focus of this game is "Play the way you want to".

Anti_Virus · May 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

Lol I run 5 eternal hunt 3 Night mothers and 3 agility.

Bow bar: Lethal arrow, Draining shot, piercing mark,shadowy disguise, poision injection Ultimate: flawless DB

Dual wield (daggers): flurry, flying blade,shuffle,vigor, Killers blade, Ultimate: incapacitating strike.

I attempted to use this build in Open world and failed terribly, in duels I almost managed to beat a sorc, but any melee build would destroy me.

leepalmer95 · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn/Kena

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

Lol I run 5 eternal hunt 3 Night mothers and 3 agility.

Bow bar: Lethal arrow, Draining shot, piercing mark,shadowy disguise, poision injection Ultimate: flawless DB

Dual wield (daggers): flurry, flying blade,shuffle,vigor, Killers blade, Ultimate: incapacitating strike.

I attempted to use this build in Open world and failed terribly, in duels I almost managed to beat a sorc, but and melee build would destroy me.

Why would you not use marksmen a 8% dmg increase and 5% cost reduction is pretty much needed if your going a bow build.

I think the needed thing of a bow build is to keep your mobility up hence why i put shadow image there as well as bombard. Also without relentless focus you won't have burst.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

By design magicka builds are locked to be more ranged, while stamina mostly forced to be mele, which is logical: stam people have huge amount of benefits and now wants not only close combat superiority, but also range combat - it's just bad it's destroying everything which can be considered as 'balance'.

Balance - is situation where choice between magicka and stamina isn't obvious and you have different pros and cons which you must consider.

If you want pew-pew - get magicka, and deal with it's 'problems', which is: no more HoT which heals you for 2k noncrit every second, no more roll-dodge, no more infinite break free, no more major expedition from roll-dodge(you can still get it if you will use bow as weapon, but will you roll dodge to spent insanely precious stamina for it?), etc.

This isn't about having superiority over magic builds. It's about having options.

Magic Dk and Templars play magic builds effectively in MELEE range with heals and shields to help them survive.

Magic Sorcs and to an extent magic NB also play very effectively at RANGE.

Stam builds are only stuck with two options melee or Ganking. Why are you against options? The focus of this game is "Play the way you want to".

It's not about having options, it's about getting full superiority in range and mele.
Magtemplar and magdk don't use shields for survivability, only Trollplar uses blazing shield.
Annulment only removes harmful part of one hit, but it doesn't negates all damage which dodge roll does.
If you trying to talk from PTS perspective than add bone shield to your build and show how much you will can stay in place without roll-dodging.

"Play the way you want" has went off with sotfcaps removal, now "stack damage and exploit broken things" are the main meta one of the broken things is complete imbalance in roll-dodge, cc-break and blocking between stamina and magicka, which you don't care, because you think that this is 'fair' to have everything while 'magicka suckers' will have nothing.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn/Kena

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

Lol I run 5 eternal hunt 3 Night mothers and 3 agility.

Bow bar: Lethal arrow, Draining shot, piercing mark,shadowy disguise, poision injection Ultimate: flawless DB

Dual wield (daggers): flurry, flying blade,shuffle,vigor, Killers blade, Ultimate: incapacitating strike.

I attempted to use this build in Open world and failed terribly, in duels I almost managed to beat a sorc, but and melee build would destroy me.

Why would you not use marksmen a 8% dmg increase and 5% cost reduction is pretty much needed if your going a bow build.

I think the needed thing of a bow build is to keep your mobility up hence why i put shadow image there as well as bombard. Also without relentless focus you won't have burst.

I don't have marksmen yet because the pvp drops have been giving me furry set, marksmen rings( purple and up) are expensive.

I get my mobility through cloak since it crit heals me plus when I play pvp most players recognize that if a shadow image is down they will anticipate me teleporting to it when I'm in trouble.

As for relentless I don't have room for it on my bar, I could give up mark but then I can't countet other nb and the major fracture helps with dps. Bombard is a soft stun but draining shot is the only reliable ranged cc skill.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

By design magicka builds are locked to be more ranged, while stamina mostly forced to be mele, which is logical: stam people have huge amount of benefits and now wants not only close combat superiority, but also range combat - it's just bad it's destroying everything which can be considered as 'balance'.

Balance - is situation where choice between magicka and stamina isn't obvious and you have different pros and cons which you must consider.

If you want pew-pew - get magicka, and deal with it's 'problems', which is: no more HoT which heals you for 2k noncrit every second, no more roll-dodge, no more infinite break free, no more major expedition from roll-dodge(you can still get it if you will use bow as weapon, but will you roll dodge to spent insanely precious stamina for it?), etc.

This isn't about having superiority over magic builds. It's about having options.

Magic Dk and Templars play magic builds effectively in MELEE range with heals and shields to help them survive.

Magic Sorcs and to an extent magic NB also play very effectively at RANGE.

Stam builds are only stuck with two options melee or Ganking. Why are you against options? The focus of this game is "Play the way you want to".

It's not about having options, it's about getting full superiority in range and mele.
Magtemplar and magdk don't use shields for survivability, only Trollplar uses blazing shield.
Annulment only removes harmful part of one hit, but it doesn't negates all damage which dodge roll does.
If you trying to talk from PTS perspective than add bone shield to your build and show how much you will can stay in place without roll-dodging.

"Play the way you want" has went off with sotfcaps removal, now "stack damage and exploit broken things" are the main meta one of the broken things is complete imbalance in roll-dodge, cc-break and blocking between stamina and magicka, which you don't care, because you think that this is 'fair' to have everything while 'magicka suckers' will have nothing.

So you're saying that magplars and MagDk don't use healing ward/ BOL and burning embers heal?

Annualment(if not changed) will absorb ALL dmg so thats two shields to stack(healing ward) in addtion to heals.

Bone shield really! Last time I checked it's 15% of your max stamina so 40K equals 6k shield compared to Hardened wards 9K at 40K magicka. Plus NO stam build will go 40K stam unless they are a gank build because stam recovery would be so low (2K stam recovery isn’t enough to sustain) so having 900 stam recovery is a joke.

What do you mean magicka has 'nothing'? You have tons of viable skills
1.) Zerg buster skill (Detonation)
2.) Zerg buster set (VD)
3.) An entire skill tree dedicated to healing (resto staff)
4.) 90% of ultimates scale with elemental expert
5.) Class skills are magic dominant(except NB stam morphs)

Remeber when this game was called Elder Robes Online? Well we came along way from that time period and I welcome more diverse builds. Also I never said "magicka suckers" so please don't put words in my mouth.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

By design magicka builds are locked to be more ranged, while stamina mostly forced to be mele, which is logical: stam people have huge amount of benefits and now wants not only close combat superiority, but also range combat - it's just bad it's destroying everything which can be considered as 'balance'.

Balance - is situation where choice between magicka and stamina isn't obvious and you have different pros and cons which you must consider.

If you want pew-pew - get magicka, and deal with it's 'problems', which is: no more HoT which heals you for 2k noncrit every second, no more roll-dodge, no more infinite break free, no more major expedition from roll-dodge(you can still get it if you will use bow as weapon, but will you roll dodge to spent insanely precious stamina for it?), etc.

This isn't about having superiority over magic builds. It's about having options.

Magic Dk and Templars play magic builds effectively in MELEE range with heals and shields to help them survive.

Magic Sorcs and to an extent magic NB also play very effectively at RANGE.

Stam builds are only stuck with two options melee or Ganking. Why are you against options? The focus of this game is "Play the way you want to".

It's not about having options, it's about getting full superiority in range and mele.
Magtemplar and magdk don't use shields for survivability, only Trollplar uses blazing shield.
Annulment only removes harmful part of one hit, but it doesn't negates all damage which dodge roll does.
If you trying to talk from PTS perspective than add bone shield to your build and show how much you will can stay in place without roll-dodging.

"Play the way you want" has went off with sotfcaps removal, now "stack damage and exploit broken things" are the main meta one of the broken things is complete imbalance in roll-dodge, cc-break and blocking between stamina and magicka, which you don't care, because you think that this is 'fair' to have everything while 'magicka suckers' will have nothing.

So you're saying that magplars and MagDk don't use healing ward/ BOL and burning embers heal?

Annualment(if not changed) will absorb ALL dmg so thats two shields to stack(healing ward) in addtion to heals.

Bone shield really! Last time I checked it's 15% of your max stamina so 40K equals 6k shield compared to Hardened wards 9K at 40K magicka. Plus NO stam build will go 40K stam unless they are a gank build because stam recovery would be so low (2K stam recovery isn’t enough to sustain) so having 900 stam recovery is a joke.

What do you mean magicka has 'nothing'? You have tons of viable skills
1.) Zerg buster skill (Detonation)
2.) Zerg buster set (VD)
3.) An entire skill tree dedicated to healing (resto staff)
4.) 90% of ultimates scale with elemental expert
5.) Class skills are magic dominant(except NB stam morphs)

Remeber when this game was called Elder Robes Online? Well we came along way from that time period and I welcome more diverse builds. Also I never said "magicka suckers" so please don't put words in my mouth.

You have rally as Burst heal and buff which you will refresh even if you don't need heal, you have Vigor which is ~2k noncrit HoT which used as buff and heals you for almost 5k in one roll-dodge(which negates most damage abilities and CC).

Compare bone shield to annulment, HW is magsorc class-defining ability.

1. Nerfed viable only on NB in specific scenario
2. How much non-nb do you see in this set? Also, look at №1
3. So i forced to run restro while you have insanely powerful HoT without any restrictions?
4. 90%? From NB it's already like 50x50
5. See point 4, also read notes about DK abilities changes

So your point for people who want magicka to still be competitive is to reroll into magblade, stack damage and do proxydetvd? Just because anything other in your list or locked to one specific build or already not an issue for stamina.

Lets see what every stamina build have what magicka can only dream about:

1. Almost infinite Dodge-roll = complete negation of 100% of damage except meteor
2. Block = negation of cc and most part meteor damage
3. Almost infinite CC break
4. Unrestricted powerful HoT which heals for 2k noncrit per tick
5. Insane burst damage without any tradeoff to survivability (see point 1,2,3,4)
6. No requirement to care about magicka at all (while magicka builds must watch at stamina bar almost always)

DDuke · May 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

The only way of making primarily bow builds viable and good in PvP is by making them able to keep the distance.

Whether this is by good area denial or increasing the range of bow skills doesn't matter.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

DDuke · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Anti_Virus · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

The only way of making primarily bow builds viable and good in PvP is by making them able to keep the distance.

Whether this is by good area denial or increasing the range of bow skills doesn't matter.

This.

DDuke · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

By design magicka builds are locked to be more ranged, while stamina mostly forced to be mele, which is logical: stam people have huge amount of benefits and now wants not only close combat superiority, but also range combat - it's just bad it's destroying everything which can be considered as 'balance'.

Balance - is situation where choice between magicka and stamina isn't obvious and you have different pros and cons which you must consider.

If you want pew-pew - get magicka, and deal with it's 'problems', which is: no more HoT which heals you for 2k noncrit every second, no more roll-dodge, no more infinite break free, no more major expedition from roll-dodge(you can still get it if you will use bow as weapon, but will you roll dodge to spent insanely precious stamina for it?), etc.

This isn't about having superiority over magic builds. It's about having options.

Magic Dk and Templars play magic builds effectively in MELEE range with heals and shields to help them survive.

Magic Sorcs and to an extent magic NB also play very effectively at RANGE.

Stam builds are only stuck with two options melee or Ganking. Why are you against options? The focus of this game is "Play the way you want to".

It's not about having options, it's about getting full superiority in range and mele.
Magtemplar and magdk don't use shields for survivability, only Trollplar uses blazing shield.
Annulment only removes harmful part of one hit, but it doesn't negates all damage which dodge roll does.
If you trying to talk from PTS perspective than add bone shield to your build and show how much you will can stay in place without roll-dodging.

"Play the way you want" has went off with sotfcaps removal, now "stack damage and exploit broken things" are the main meta one of the broken things is complete imbalance in roll-dodge, cc-break and blocking between stamina and magicka, which you don't care, because you think that this is 'fair' to have everything while 'magicka suckers' will have nothing.

So you're saying that magplars and MagDk don't use healing ward/ BOL and burning embers heal?

Annualment(if not changed) will absorb ALL dmg so thats two shields to stack(healing ward) in addtion to heals.

Bone shield really! Last time I checked it's 15% of your max stamina so 40K equals 6k shield compared to Hardened wards 9K at 40K magicka. Plus NO stam build will go 40K stam unless they are a gank build because stam recovery would be so low (2K stam recovery isn’t enough to sustain) so having 900 stam recovery is a joke.

What do you mean magicka has 'nothing'? You have tons of viable skills
1.) Zerg buster skill (Detonation)
2.) Zerg buster set (VD)
3.) An entire skill tree dedicated to healing (resto staff)
4.) 90% of ultimates scale with elemental expert
5.) Class skills are magic dominant(except NB stam morphs)

Remeber when this game was called Elder Robes Online? Well we came along way from that time period and I welcome more diverse builds. Also I never said "magicka suckers" so please don't put words in my mouth.

You have rally as Burst heal and buff which you will refresh even if you don't need heal, you have Vigor which is ~2k noncrit HoT which used as buff and heals you for almost 5k in one roll-dodge(which negates most damage abilities and CC).

Compare bone shield to annulment, HW is magsorc class-defining ability.

1. Nerfed viable only on NB in specific scenario
2. How much non-nb do you see in this set? Also, look at №1
3. So i forced to run restro while you have insanely powerful HoT without any restrictions?
4. 90%? From NB it's already like 50x50
5. See point 4, also read notes about DK abilities changes

So your point for people who want magicka to still be competitive is to reroll into magblade, stack damage and do proxydetvd? Just because anything other in your list or locked to one specific build or already not an issue for stamina.

Lets see what every stamina build have what magicka can only dream about:

1. Almost infinite Dodge-roll = complete negation of 100% of damage except meteor
2. Block = negation of cc and most part meteor damage
3. Almost infinite CC break
4. Unrestricted powerful HoT which heals for 2k noncrit per tick
5. Insane burst damage without any tradeoff to survivability (see point 1,2,3,4)
6. No requirement to care about magicka at all (while magicka builds must watch at stamina bar almost always)

Listen man I don't know what class you play but im sorry if your play style isn't viable but you have to admit.

Magic builds have better survivability, yes vigor is a classless and weapon less heal, but rally requires a 2h and not all stam builds want to run 2h for heals (similar to forcing resto staffs) Zos made sure you CAN'T perma roll or perma block anymore which was unhealthy for the game.

Burst dmg does have a trade off, our stamina pool is shared with dodge roll block and CC break thats way stam builds stack WD and recovery and not max Stam.

Also We just derailed the thread back on topic about archery...

Birdovic · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Nice, so dealing 20k with a fully charged heavy attack is considered better than a allrounder with great damage, allrighty then.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Nice, so dealing 20k with a fully charged heavy attack is considered better than a allrounder with great damage, allrighty then.

He asked me to find build who have more burst DPS than he has, i've found.
Don't even try to look for other meaning in xeloki mentioning.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Magic builds ARE good at range Bow users AREN'T.
"Every range build has downside adapt" ah yes the classic 'I won't give you logic and reasoning but i'll tell you that you need to L2P' statment.

Incase you haven't noticed... ARCHERY SUCKS
1.) No good ranged stamina ultimate( magic builds have meteor)

2.) No good survivability shuffle is a dodge CHANCE which isn't as reliable as negating 100% of dmg CRIT FREE (magic builds can shield stack heal, sorcs use mines to deter melee builds)

3.) Bows weapon dmg is low just like the Staff, except magic builds can use dual wield and negate the range penalty legendary swords gives a big boost to spell dmg while allowing casting at the safety of range, Ranged stam builds can only use their bow skill line

4.) 3/5 bow skills are utility(bombard,Volley,scatter shot)

5.) Archers are WAY squishier than magic builds (especially if you are not a NB, magic builds shield stack and heal)

If you REALLY think that magic builds suffer MORE than ranged stam builds then my friend you need to L2P.

Suru · May 2016

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Tell you what make an Open world archer build that can 1vX like a magic sorc/temp/dk/nb WITHOUT swapping to melee weapons post a vid here in the thread. Once that is possible i'll never talk about bow buffs again

Until then Go troll somewhere else please

DDuke · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Buddy, I know Xeloki (Alcast) in game & I'm aware of his videos.

However, the build I have is the most burst damage you can currently get out of stealth, far surpassing anything else in the game.

My Lethal Arrow tooltip reaches 26k & with proper timing lands at the same time as a heavy attack and a poison injection for a total of 30-40k burst damage.

Here's an example of a mid range combo: https://youtu.be/0kMFRRwkVRw?t=1m19s

But that's all the bow does - gank.

Which is a problem.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Anyone else with suggestions? I would like the devs to see this thread and (hopefully) have some changes to bow skill line.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Buddy, I know Xeloki (Alcast) in game & I'm aware of his videos.

However, the build I have is the most burst damage you can currently get out of stealth, far surpassing anything else in the game.

My Lethal Arrow tooltip reaches 26k & with proper timing lands at the same time as a heavy attack and a poison injection for a total of 30-40k burst damage.

But that's all the bow does - gank.

Which is a problem.

I still want my 100K.

Then what about to make more direct requests like: reduce damage output but increase range control? Are you want ability to lock everyone in place and play in 'duck hunt'? Or what?

I can't really get what do you want to see, because you only talking that "bow is sh*t"(while it isn't) and don't even try to make some suggestions how to make it better without making it OP.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Suru wrote: »

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

I said that in my OP, but those buffs are not enough for a viable pure archer build.

Suru · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

I said that in my OP, but those buffs are not enough for a viable pure archer build.

Define pure archer build, 4 bow abilities on one bar?

Alot of people use bow for burst with snipe. Having a high range to it. Poison injection being an amazing execute. Pairing the abilities with class buffs and things like evil hunter make it a force to be reckoned with. Bows inherent strength is from long range, and the toolkit comes with abilities to mediate people who gap close you such as draining shot, bombard for group utility and major expedition for speed.

You basically counter yourself in the debunk area proving that bows can be high damage and that there are multiple playstyles mainhanding bow. Also describing abilities such as volley and bombard, which synergize great together. To answer how you handle trolls and cc immune targets, you just side step in your AoE and self heal when needed.

Its how you use the bow which makes it lethal. For every good bow user there are 100 bad ones. (Damn you @kartalin q.q probably the only bow user to really get me from time to time xD) They've done alot to buff bow. Personally think its in a good spot.

DDuke · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Buddy, I know Xeloki (Alcast) in game & I'm aware of his videos.

However, the build I have is the most burst damage you can currently get out of stealth, far surpassing anything else in the game.

My Lethal Arrow tooltip reaches 26k & with proper timing lands at the same time as a heavy attack and a poison injection for a total of 30-40k burst damage.

But that's all the bow does - gank.

Which is a problem.

I still want my 100K.

Then what about to make more direct requests like: reduce damage output but increase range control? Are you want ability to lock everyone in place and play in 'duck hunt'? Or what?

I can't really get what do you want to see, because you only talking that "bow is sh*t"(while it isn't) and don't even try to make some suggestions how to make it better without making it OP.

What? Can't tell if you're trolling at this point.

Let me recap what I've suggested so far:

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.
Increase the traveling speed of Snipe and/or reduce cast time+damage to prevent multiple projectiles from landing at the same second.
Fix Scatter Shot (and morphs), remove the anti-synergy between other bow skills (damage from Poison Injection instantly breaking disorient from Scatter Shot).
Revamp Scatter Shot to knockback target & apply schrapnel mines on ground in front of target to provide some much needed area denial, and help you stay at long range.
Passively allow casting skills while sprinting when bow is equipped.
Add stamina based pets that can CC and/or immobilize opponent to help you keep distance to target.

None of this would buff the only strong aspect of bow, burst damage.

Instead, it would make the other aspects more desirable & could make bow work as the main weapon for other people than the Xv1ers.

Tell me how that would be a bad thing?

Or would you rather that every bow user is a ganker or Xv1er, and the remaining stam builds spam Wrecking Blow?

Just curious, have you even played a bow build? I've been playing one whenever possible since 2014.

DDuke · May 2016

@Suru

By "pure archer build" he probably means using bow as the main weapon of your build, not an off-bar you gank with & keep the buffs on, while switching to Dual Wield or 2H to really fight enemies.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Suru wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

I said that in my OP, but those buffs are not enough for a viable pure archer build.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

I said that in my OP, but those buffs are not enough for a viable pure archer build.

Define pure archer build, 4 bow abilities on one bar?

Alot of people use bow for burst with snipe. Having a high range to it. Poison injection being an amazing execute. Pairing the abilities with class buffs and things like evil hunter make it a force to be reckoned with. Bows inherent strength is from long range, and the toolkit comes with abilities to mediate people who gap close you such as draining shot, bombard for group utility and major expedition for speed.

You basically counter yourself in the debunk area proving that bows can be high damage and that there are multiple playstyles mainhanding bow. Also describing abilities such as volley and bombard, which synergize great together. To answer how you handle trolls and cc immune targets, you just side step in your AoE and self heal when needed.

Its how you use the bow which makes it lethal. For every good bow user there are 100 bad ones. (Damn you @kartalin q.q probably the only bow user to really get me from time to time xD) They've done alot to buff bow. Personally think its in a good spot.

People use bow for stealth burst otherwise snipe sucks.

Again bow dominate at range the problem is.... YOU CANNOT stay at range to sustain high dmg with gap closer spam and un CCable mobs that are ALWAYS in your face. If a target is in your face your dmg is SIGNIFICANTLY lower and you will probably die.

Really thats your explanation for volley against CC immune mobs? Read above for why its bad to kite a melee mob/player in volley.

Bow users are Lethal in stealth or in group play, refer to arguement 2 in my arguments to debunk portion, because that's what you are saying here. Every time I see a sniper in Pvp I kill him first and its hilarious when you see them desperately try to snipe you as you roll dodge the arrows and eventually kill them with melee builds.

What people need to understand is Stealth Snipe DOESN'T EQUAL how archers should operate.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sugaroverdose wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

You have zero chance of ever killing a good stamina DK or magicka sorc with that build, as it lacks the necessary burst damage.

Maybe next patch it'll be slightly better with disease dmg dealing Relentless, but I'd say it's still not enough.

In a duel, I can hit a stam DK with a Lethal+Heavy Attack+PI combo from Shadowy Disguise with a full dmg setup of Marksman & 5k weapon dmg, and it still isn't enough burst - next thing you know you're crit rushed & snared, roll dodging & spamming bombard trying to create distance, steadily running out of health and stamina - and then you die.

Only thing capable of creating distance (when it works) is Shadow Image (I wonder how stam DKs & templars would do a bow build...), which is a bandaid fix to the main problem:

You don't have enough time to deal any damage before someone uses gap closer on you, and you can't really prevent those gap closers by any means.

What's the difference if you will be ranged magicka templar or ranged magicka nightblade or ranged magdk? Only one who have ability to instantly break distance is sorc.

Yes, but how is that relevant to the thread? :P

All those builds deal the same damage at range as they deal in melee, where as bow is reduced to tickling damage and your only decent direct damage ability (Snipe) gets interrupted 99% of time.

Not to mention the lack of any decent damaging ultimate for bow builds.

But to be honest, the main thing keeping melee builds away from magicka sorcs isn't streak, you can always gap close that. What keeps melee builds away are the mines & the awesome area denial they provide.

More ranged builds need area denial like that, especially bow builds.

How much times snipe get's interrupted? I didn't ever seen anyone who stop attacking and starts bashspaming(which also will not let them kill 'sniper'). Mostly snipe spam may get interrupted only if you face magsorc with destro, and shock+LA weaving, if sorc uses shock+MA weaving he will not be able to interrupt 50% of casts.
Compare it to darkflare and you get same result.

Every ranged build have downsides, just adapt, if you think that your attacks deals not enough damage - get damaging sets, 50% of them don't even care about your stats and boosts only from CP and % damage output buffs.

And, it's relevant to the thread because topic starter does says that "magicka builds are good at range while bow users not"

Ehm... maybe you're not aware, but in the bow skill line there's a passive that grants +12% damage based on your range to the opponent.

Also, if you try to spam Lethal Arrow at melee range I don't know what to tell you... Same goes for Dark Flare.

The only difference between those two is that a Snipe cast from melee range tickles, where as Dark Flare still deals full damage.

Hopefully this sheds some light as to how range dependent bow is.

Furthermore, ranged magicka builds have access to good direct damage that doesn't scale with distance to target, such as:

Funnel Health
Force Pulse (or Crushing Shock)
Blazing Spear
Aurora Javelin
Frost Clench
Jesus Beam

Where as bow has only Lethal Arrow as direct damage (rest being DoTs or utility skills) and all the damage scales based on distance, which is impossible to maintain with 0 cooldown gap closers and no area denial.

Oh, I'll also give you 100k gold if you find a bow build dealing more damage than mine (Marksman +8% & 5k weapon dmg).

javelin cost a lot and does scales of distance.
Blazing spear is first hit CC, but in fact it's nothing more than ground-based aoe
Frost clench doesn't really deals much damage it's more viable as root if you don't have another
Jesus beam is 3k hits for non execution range targets and it's cannot be considered as 'good range damaging ability' it's channeling execute after all.
Force pulse isn't good damaging ability, it's good way to interrupt, weave on sorcs until frag procs, and counter to dk reflect

Funnel health only one ability from this list which is pure damaging ability without any downsides.

xeloki, 20k heavy attack. PS4 EU Sugaroverdose, will wait for mail.

Buddy, I know Xeloki (Alcast) in game & I'm aware of his videos.

However, the build I have is the most burst damage you can currently get out of stealth, far surpassing anything else in the game.

My Lethal Arrow tooltip reaches 26k & with proper timing lands at the same time as a heavy attack and a poison injection for a total of 30-40k burst damage.

But that's all the bow does - gank.

Which is a problem.

I still want my 100K.

Then what about to make more direct requests like: reduce damage output but increase range control? Are you want ability to lock everyone in place and play in 'duck hunt'? Or what?

I can't really get what do you want to see, because you only talking that "bow is sh*t"(while it isn't) and don't even try to make some suggestions how to make it better without making it OP.

I have a thread titled "Redesign the bow skill line" go search that thread for ideas to improve the state of archery I have detailed explanations for each suggestion, how it would help archery, and how it could be balanced.

Head there give it a good read and critic my ideas if nessisary your input will only help me to get closer to bow balances.

Suru · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

I said that in my OP, but those buffs are not enough for a viable pure archer build.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Suru wrote: »

Bow users are not a minority, Seeing people mainhand bow left and right.

In DB, they have given the bow abilities nice buffs, especially draining shot. For AoE, Volley has become amazing with a vMA bow.

I said that in my OP, but those buffs are not enough for a viable pure archer build.

Define pure archer build, 4 bow abilities on one bar?

Alot of people use bow for burst with snipe. Having a high range to it. Poison injection being an amazing execute. Pairing the abilities with class buffs and things like evil hunter make it a force to be reckoned with. Bows inherent strength is from long range, and the toolkit comes with abilities to mediate people who gap close you such as draining shot, bombard for group utility and major expedition for speed.

You basically counter yourself in the debunk area proving that bows can be high damage and that there are multiple playstyles mainhanding bow. Also describing abilities such as volley and bombard, which synergize great together. To answer how you handle trolls and cc immune targets, you just side step in your AoE and self heal when needed.

Its how you use the bow which makes it lethal. For every good bow user there are 100 bad ones. (Damn you @kartalin q.q probably the only bow user to really get me from time to time xD) They've done alot to buff bow. Personally think its in a good spot.

People use bow for stealth burst otherwise snipe sucks.

Again bow dominate at range the problem is.... YOU CANNOT stay at range to sustain high dmg with gap closer spam and un CCable mobs that are ALWAYS in your face. If a target is in your face your dmg is SIGNIFICANTLY lower and you will probably die.

Really thats your explanation for volley against CC immunr mobs? Read above for why its bad to kite a melee mob/player in volley.

Bow users are Lethal in stealth or in group play, refer to arguement 2 in my arguments to debunk portion, because that's what you are saying here. Every time I see a sniper in Pvp I kill him first and its hilarious when you see them desperately try to snipe you as you roll dodge the arrows and eventually kill them with melee builds.

What people need to understand is Stealth Snipe DOESN'T EQUAL how archers should operate.

It sounds like you only want to main bow for some reason. I appreciate how dedicated you are to it, but we have two bars for different situations. You can definately main hand bow in PvE for DPS but you have to keep range of course. With a tank you can do your thing, but for solo play, you have to be dynamic enough to survive. Drop arrow barrage, poison injection and swap to single target DPS. Drop arrow barrage and spam bombard and swap bars for cleave or steel tornado. Different situations call for different set ups. You can't one shot mobs in ESO like you could in skyrim which alot of players come from. Different games also how this is a different MMO from others.

It was not only in the debunk portion but when you listed skills previously.

1 - Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

You talk about volley and then bombard. Talking about your opinions about the skills and their problems. Me and a couple others talk about how they synergize amazing together. They do amazing in AoE DPS together for control in PvP and PvE. You then counter us how you deal with CC immune targets. You did not state that was an issue at first when describing the abilities which leaves us at a standstill, when that specific issue is a l2p problem

2- You want want a pure archer build where bow is your mainhand. When you main hand a bow you fight with that bar mainly. You can only maintain range for so long Snipe, Poson injection, LA. What is it you want to do? Why do you want to dedicate yourself to one bar? What is on your offbar? You can main hand bow and use it when stealth, as an opener or just at a distance (not in stealth), to range DPS, but when situations turn unfavorable you are going to pigeonhole yourself into a build with just a bow. L2P with an offbar, fight, and adapt to the situation. Really good players have a rotation, which usually requires swapping bars. In PvE and PvP. Bows right now are used to gank, range DPS, and as I do, use it as a buff bar to escape, kite and create distance.

How I imagine main handing a bow would go.

Snipe, Poison injection, heavy attack, Snipe, LA, Snipe (by this time they are hit, can react, CC break roll dodge) Its the way it goes, adding counterplay. You can continue to main hand bow by keeping your distance and using your abilities but your ability to kill is hindered open field. My suggestion to those really enjoy this kind of style without getting gap closed is to stay in a cozy keep and keep spamming snipe from the ledge or to zerg surf snipe in PvP or make sure you are doing content with a tank so you can stay at range at all times.

you can add to this rotation by

Snipe, Poison injection, heavy attack, Bar swap, Crit Charge, Soul Harvest, Surprise Attack LA, execute. So much more DPS and killing capability.

-"What people need to understand is Stealth Snipe DOESN'T EQUAL how archers should operate."

The game is play how you want to play, you cannot say "This is how bow should be played only" by inferring different gamestyles with a bow are not how archers should be played. You opinion is your and I respect it, but I do think you need to adapt to the way the game is. Since Skyrim a TES game, bow was stealth stealth stealth. Its inherent strength. The reason why these gamestyles are around are because they are fun, effective and nostalgic. As I said before, for every good archer, there are tons of bad ones. People pick it up but never really l2p and use if to its maximum efficiency to get the most out of it.