Lack of ranged stamina builds

Anti_Virus · May 2016

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @Wrobel
Yep It's me again talking about archers again, but this thread is my desperate attempt to shine a light on the players that enjoy archery and stamina based range combat (I don't speak for everyone).

TL:DR at the bottom

I'm fully aware archers in this game are in the minority so I don't anticipate many changes anytime soon in regards to archery or ranged stam combat.

I'm great full that the devs gave a buff to archers in the last patch (mighty increasing poison and disease dmg in addition to physical, and hawk eye change) but quite frankly these changes are not enough to help out those that build for archery as their main dps.

The problems:

With magic builds they have tons of skills to use at range within their respective skill lines, allowing them to play as a pure mage archtype, melee 'spell swords' archtype with magic dmg in melee range or a combination of both. with stam builds there is only one skill line that has ranged stamina dmg skills and that's the bow skill line, if you wanted to play as a ranged build that doesn't utilize magic you have very limited options. Almost all ultimates are ranged magic based or melee based

Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Edit for clarification: Volley isn't a bad skill its one of the bread and butter dps skills that stam builds use especially with the maelstrom bow but it's best used in group play like dungeons or siege warfare pvp, outside of group play it lacks the utility because you can't kite all mobs in the AoE

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

EDIT for Clarification: Bombard is a utility skill that locks down targets in place for volley(they complement each other) certain mobs can't be rooted making
volley useless against them. it also has a high cost so its probably not meant to be a spam skill for AoE dps.

Snipe: single target dps skill with moderate damage(high dmg at max range) but since bows dmg is low and this skill has a cast time plus kiting is impossible in solo play it makes the long shots passive null and its dmg is low.

EDIT for Clarification: Snipe actually hits hard if in stealth or at max distance but again requires you to position yourself which is impossible in solo play but can be done in group play.

Scatter shot: it's clear that the design of this skill is for melee builds to have a free stun, I mean with a low range of 10m (gap closers have 2x the range) and the change to draining shot healing you after it's use melee builds can use this in their dps rotation for a free heal/stun while archers that are playing at max range will have to get in melee range to stun targets.

So Zos and community I get it, you don't want main hand archers well that would be fine of another ranged stamina skill line was added(crossbows, throwing javelins, and sling shots). Not every stamina build wants to play in melee range, magic builds have the luxury of playing at range and deal full dmg (dual wield) or go in melee range why can't stam do it too?

Common Arguements that I will debunk (Do not need to read):

1.) "Zos has stated that ranged builds shouldn't be as powerful as melee builds because they have to take a risk in getting in close."

Counter: Magic builds are able to bypass the range penalty by equipping two swords and deal good dmg at the safety of range due to ranged class skills, also melee builds aren't taking a risk at all in this game its ranged builds that do, all a melee build has to do is press the gap closer button and bam in melee range, but the ranged magic/stam build has to put all there efforts keeping the distance.

2.) "Bow is so OP I get hit by 18K focused aims they don't need a buff/ bow dps is fine in dungeons"

Counter: Yes getting hit by a FA that high is not fun, but at the same time that sniper was most likely in stealth to hit you that hard. Outside of stealth you won't be hit that hard EVER wearing full impen and listening out for the audio que will allow you to LOS roll dodge block or Shield Stack a snipe.

As for dungeons bow dps is optional of course that's why it's a weapon skill line but to achieve that dmg requires a group to back you up and perfect positioning, if the boss stands still in your volley and you are at max range then your dps will be high (however most bosses have mechanics that punish you for being at range while other make it impossible to play at range) examples: Molag Kena will attacks you if you exceed a certain range, The flesh sculpture summons atros and the arena isn't big enough for archers to deal dps plus you must reposition a lot.

3.) "I use bow in my builds, shoot snipe then ambush SA fear"

Counter: Yes i'm well aware of that playstyle but that's futher reinforcing my statement about bows being a utility, that play style is probably a 2h and bow builds with 2h as main dps and bow for SUPPORT.

4.) "Archers aremeant to play at range when engaging a target in melee range it's best to switch to a melee weapon"

Counter: True, but the problem is bow just isn't good at range dps compared to staff, in open world combat be it PVE or PVP the dmg suffers due to the lack of kiting options when facing targets why hinder yourself using a bow when you can comfortably enter melee range without the hassle of kiting and positioning? It would be cool if there was a new class like a "beast master" class where you tame and summon pets to draw aggro from you allowing you to deal dps at range without a group

TL:DR: Never in my years of playing fantasy MMOS have I ever seen archery so undesirable. In this game it seems like magic builds = range and melee and stam builds = melee only and it saddens me because archery is my favorite play style in these kinds of games even though it's the hardest play style.

If you the community just stop and think for a second i'm not advocating for bow to be OP I just want ranged stam builds to be a thing, tired of every stam build playing a melee build when was the last time you've seen an archer build that wasn't a gank set up, when was the last time you've seen a competent archer build that could hold there own and not rely on a group? When was the last time you've seen a good archer build that didn't have bow be a 'back up weapon'.

here's a thread that has suggestions for some bow improvements: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/257642/redesign-the-bow-skill-line/p1

The devs probably has their hands full atm balancing mechanics, so this isn't really an urgent change that should be implemented now but rather something to think about in the future balancing.

ADarklore · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

It's funny that you state about volley, "how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself" and then the very next skill, you mention Bombard. Basically you answered your own question. I use Bombard ALL THE TIME to 'keep mobs in the AoE by myself' because it roots them in place.

So I can't help but wonder how seriously people will take your other arguments when you clearly missed this one. Already players are complaining in PvP how they are getting 'locked down' with Bombard and want the snare stacking removed.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

It's funny that you state about volley, "how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself" and then the very next skill, you mention Bombard. Basically you answered your own question. I use Bombard ALL THE TIME to 'keep mobs in the AoE by myself' because it roots them in place.

So I can't help but wonder how seriously people will take your other arguments when you clearly missed this one. Already players are complaining in PvP how they are getting 'locked down' with Bombard and want the snare stacking removed.

My arguement was for both pvp AND PVE. Now i'll ask you again how do you lock down CC immune mobs like Giants,Trolls, Mammoths and Flying mobs? You need you factor in those disadvantages for PVE mobs.

Notice how I said MOBS not just PLAYERS.

Also using bombard against players isn't (or shouldn't be that effective) it's cone skill which means it's hard to aim if a target is moving strafing side to side it's difficult to aim at players bombard spamming in a group is pretty effective.

Also Bombard is expensive so players won't 'spam' it.

Birdovic · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

It's funny that you state about volley, "how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself" and then the very next skill, you mention Bombard. Basically you answered your own question. I use Bombard ALL THE TIME to 'keep mobs in the AoE by myself' because it roots them in place.

So I can't help but wonder how seriously people will take your other arguments when you clearly missed this one. Already players are complaining in PvP how they are getting 'locked down' with Bombard and want the snare stacking removed.

My arguement was for both pvp AND PVE. Now i'll ask you again how do you lock down CC immune mobs like Giants,Trolls, Mammoths and Flying mobs? You need you factor in those disadvantages for PVE mobs.

Notice how I said MOBS not just PLAYERS.

Also using bombard against players isn't (or shouldn't be that effective) it's cone skill which means it's hard to aim if a target is moving strafing side to side it's difficult to aim at players bombard spamming in a group is pretty effective.

Also Bombard is expensive so players won't 'spam' it.

Soo... who IS capable of locking down cc immune mobs like giants, trolls or mammoths? Nobody, so where is the issue.

And as for bombard not being effective against players is just not true, I use it in PvP on my stam sorc alot.
Just imagine a Keep Gate is opened and enemies flood in.
Oil coming down from top, a Suppression Field on those enemies + bombard spam
-> locked in Absorption field(cant use spells) + cant move (bombard) + cant heal/purge the fire (absorption field + oil).

Also the reason why Bow cant be used effectively from range is, melee centered players will crit rush you and be in your face the whole time. So 10% of fights is ranged against those and rest is melee. Thats what usually happens.
Short: Gap Closers are just too good, so the "ranged" part of the fight is over as soon as it starts.

Liofa · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

It's funny that you state about volley, "how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself" and then the very next skill, you mention Bombard. Basically you answered your own question. I use Bombard ALL THE TIME to 'keep mobs in the AoE by myself' because it roots them in place.

So I can't help but wonder how seriously people will take your other arguments when you clearly missed this one. Already players are complaining in PvP how they are getting 'locked down' with Bombard and want the snare stacking removed.

My arguement was for both pvp AND PVE. Now i'll ask you again how do you lock down CC immune mobs like Giants,Trolls, Mammoths and Flying mobs? You need you factor in a skill for both environments.

Notice how I said MOBS not just PLAYERS.

Simple . You roll dodge their attacks but not roll away . Roll to behind of your enemy . If you played any other games with an archer build , you should know that ; if you can't outrun your enemy or stun / slow them , you just get behind them . That is the easiest way for keeping CC immune mobs in their place . Always run around them and roll dodge normal attacks ( which you don't need to but if you want to play immersively or something ) Problem solved . This is from PvE side . In PvP , you won't be able to stand away from your enemy since there is no such thing as cooldown and you will be getting more damage from your enemies gap-closer attack over and over than you are doing with your bow . You can defend keeps , make a ganking build or troll enemies with snipe while they are trying to fight your friends . As long as they don't put cooldowns on gap-closers , you are will not effective as a bow user .

phaneub17_ESO · May 2016

Soo... who IS capable of locking down cc immune mobs like giants, trolls or mammoths? Nobody, so where is the issue.

Sorc Pets, they aggro them in place

allowing you to blast the crap out of them without worry of them moving around.

Birdovic · May 2016

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Soo... who IS capable of locking down cc immune mobs like giants, trolls or mammoths? Nobody, so where is the issue.

Sorc Pets, they aggro them in place allowing you to blast the crap out of them without worry of them moving around.

You know this was about CC abilities

Also lets not forget, not everyone has a aggro drawing pet like a Sorc^^

DDuke · May 2016

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Birdovic · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Hm I dont know, the increased range sounds a little bit over the top.
Just imagine the longer travel time of projectiles. SOmeone will shoot 10 poison injections at you, and when you notice the first hit, you will receive additional 9 hits every 0,2sec or something. Would result in even more "5 hits and dead, and i didnt notice any at all" Tooltips.

A better solution is to work on gap closers in my eyes, because they A ) either deal too much damage or B ) they offer too many benefits besides doing what they're supposed to (closing the gap).

If the damage is kept, fine, but then there needs to be a downside to spamming, like Streak/Dodge treatment (increasing cost by 50% with every use in under 4 sec).

phaneub17_ESO · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Doesn't Snipe already do that though? When you use Snipe it enables your Light and Heavy Attacks to strike at the same range Snipe can already hit for a short time. If you're rotating between Snipe and regular attacks, you can keep the increased range for longer. It's already long enough for me to follow a Snipe with 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, 1 Heavy and 2 Light bow attacks for max Hawkeye bonus. Hawkeye then lasts long enough to cast 2 Snipes and 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, repeating the pattern over again.

xblackroxe · May 2016

Lets start with "magicka users have it much easier with going ranged". Well atm proxy is a must-have for every magicka build in pve (=melee range) furthermore dk and templar have their best spam dps skill as a melee one (whip, sweeps) tgat only leaves nb and sorc. Another must have for magicka is wall of elements which isn't that long meaning when you need to go ranged you have to sacrifice damage (=melee range better).
Next thing guess what is the only aoe spell where you dont have to stand in the middle of all mobs? Yep its bombard makng it easier to not die for archers. Also if you are at max range for max damage you are far away from everybody meaning you are most likely out of healing range, for sure out of buff range (combat prayer, shards if needed).
Also damage is acceptable as a archer. Ofc noone can say its competetive but its good enough for some random gold/silver whatever casual wise.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Volley: ground based dot deals high dmg if target stands in the area, problem is how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself?

Bombard: cone Aoe that roots and snares great in a dungeon to lock down cc able mobs for your group by lacks in solo play as an expensive cone AoE.

It's funny that you state about volley, "how do you keep mobs and players in the AoE by yourself" and then the very next skill, you mention Bombard. Basically you answered your own question. I use Bombard ALL THE TIME to 'keep mobs in the AoE by myself' because it roots them in place.

So I can't help but wonder how seriously people will take your other arguments when you clearly missed this one. Already players are complaining in PvP how they are getting 'locked down' with Bombard and want the snare stacking removed.

My arguement was for both pvp AND PVE. Now i'll ask you again how do you lock down CC immune mobs like Giants,Trolls, Mammoths and Flying mobs? You need you factor in those disadvantages for PVE mobs.

Notice how I said MOBS not just PLAYERS.

Also using bombard against players isn't (or shouldn't be that effective) it's cone skill which means it's hard to aim if a target is moving strafing side to side it's difficult to aim at players bombard spamming in a group is pretty effective.

Also Bombard is expensive so players won't 'spam' it.

Soo... who IS capable of locking down cc immune mobs like giants, trolls or mammoths? Nobody, so where is the issue.

And as for bombard not being effective against players is just not true, I use it in PvP on my stam sorc alot.
Just imagine a Keep Gate is opened and enemies flood in.
Oil coming down from top, a Suppression Field on those enemies + bombard spam
-> locked in Absorption field(cant use spells) + cant move (bombard) + cant heal/purge the fire (absorption field + oil).

Also the reason why Bow cant be used effectively from range is, melee centered players will crit rush you and be in your face the whole time. So 10% of fights is ranged against those and rest is melee. Thats what usually happens.
Short: Gap Closers are just too good, so the "ranged" part of the fight is over as soon as it starts.

NO ONE can lock down mobs, however my arguement is volley is an essential bow dps skill but it's design is poor.

You can kite those mobs in caltrops in melee range, destro staff has wall of elements which is a cone ground dot and depending on the element you can snare mobs plus it's easier to kite them in the AoE.

Heck Magic and Melee builds don't even need to use those skills but archers are limited to 5 viable ranged skills and one of them isn't really viable OUTSIDE of group play (Volley).

Again you are proving my point with Bombard, it's best used in GROUP play very effective in a zerg or in dungeons to lock down mobs/players but in solo play it's difficult to aim effectively and certain mobs are CC immune.

emily3989 · May 2016

No Stamina Range???

Dual Wield:

Blood Craze = 16.4 ft
Rapid Strikes = 30 ft
Steel Tornado = 29.5 ft (radius, so 15ft)
Flying Blade = 92 ft

For ESO, is seems stamina mele is what I would consider ranged.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Great Ideas here. My suggestion would be a change to snipe to make it a reliable dps skill.

Currently it has a cast time plus travel time adding up to about 3 secs at max range to deal the most dmg, but since the projectile is slow players have plenty of time to counter it by rolling/blocking/Shield Stacking.

Increasing the velocity and lowering cast time to about 0.7 secs would be enough(obviously zos would have to compensate the dmg for the faster cast time)

Also needs A good ranged ultimate. Right now all ultimates are ranged magic based or melee based.

DDuke · May 2016

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Doesn't Snipe already do that though? When you use Snipe it enables your Light and Heavy Attacks to strike at the same range Snipe can already hit for a short time. If you're rotating between Snipe and regular attacks, you can keep the increased range for longer. It's already long enough for me to follow a Snipe with 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, 1 Heavy and 2 Light bow attacks for max Hawkeye bonus. Hawkeye then lasts long enough to cast 2 Snipes and 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, repeating the pattern over again.

Well yes, the other morph of snipe does increase range of your other bow skills - but only after you hit someone with it (and it can be purged afaik). It's the white aura you get above you sometimes, when someone hits you with Snipe.

Also, it gives only 5m more range on bow skills (Poison Arrow 28m->33m, Volley 25m->30m, Scatter Shot 10m->15m, Arrow Spray 20m->25m, Focused Aim 35m->40m).

I don't think it's a good option atm since you give up Major Defile from Lethal Arrow for it.

So basicly all you can do from long range is spam Snipe. All other skills are purely utility, because if you're in range of using them you're in range of gap closers as well and using bow skills at melee range, well...

Speaking of which, there's some major anti-synergy between Scatter Shot & other bow skills.

Scatter Shot has a maximum radius of 10m (15m with Focused Aim), where as rest of the bow kit rewards & is focused on you staying at long range. Also, it only afflicts disorient on the opponent, which means your other bow skills (Lethal Arrow poison status effect, Poison Injection, Acid Spray) actually breaks the CC instantly.

It's another skill that I think could do with a buff or revamp. You could remove the CC portion entirely, and make it instead knock back & throw some schrapnel in the ground that would immobilize the opponent. That way, you'd get some area denial and would be able to more easily kite your opponent.

Kind of like sorc mines, except that they'd get applied infront of the opponent after a knockback.

Still wouldn't work against ambush though (as it's a teleport & doesn't run through them).

I'd do all this in addition to increasing max range of all bow attacks, and increasing travel speed of snipe (so you can't combo multiple attacks from max range with it & make them land at the same time).

Also, it'd be nice to have stamina pets that you can have on target - pets that could stun or root the person they're attacking. But I doubt this is anything that ZOS could do within one patch cycle :P

These changes would make bow focused builds very viable.

Another option: give bow a passive that allows you to use skills while sprinting. This could make kiting easier with bow.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Doesn't Snipe already do that though? When you use Snipe it enables your Light and Heavy Attacks to strike at the same range Snipe can already hit for a short time. If you're rotating between Snipe and regular attacks, you can keep the increased range for longer. It's already long enough for me to follow a Snipe with 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, 1 Heavy and 2 Light bow attacks for max Hawkeye bonus. Hawkeye then lasts long enough to cast 2 Snipes and 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, repeating the pattern over again.

Only one morph of snipe increases range and its Focused Aim but it only increases the range on bow attacks NOT light and heavy attacks.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

I appreciate all the participation in this thread.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Doesn't Snipe already do that though? When you use Snipe it enables your Light and Heavy Attacks to strike at the same range Snipe can already hit for a short time. If you're rotating between Snipe and regular attacks, you can keep the increased range for longer. It's already long enough for me to follow a Snipe with 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, 1 Heavy and 2 Light bow attacks for max Hawkeye bonus. Hawkeye then lasts long enough to cast 2 Snipes and 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, repeating the pattern over again.

Well yes, the other morph of snipe does increase range of your other bow skills - but only after you hit someone with it (and it can be purged afaik). It's the white aura you get above you sometimes, when someone hits you with Snipe.

Also, it gives only 5m more range on bow skills (Poison Arrow 28m->33m, Volley 25m->30m, Scatter Shot 10m->15m, Arrow Spray 20m->25m, Focused Aim 35m->40m).

I don't think it's a good option atm since you give up Major Defile from Lethal Arrow for it.

So basicly all you can do from long range is spam Snipe. All other skills are purely utility, because if you're in range of using them you're in range of gap closers as well and using bow skills at melee range, well...

Speaking of which, there's some major anti-synergy between Scatter Shot & other bow skills.

Scatter Shot has a maximum radius of 10m (15m with Focused Aim), where as rest of the bow kit rewards & is focused on you staying at long range. Also, it only afflicts disorient on the opponent, which means your other bow skills (Lethal Arrow poison status effect, Poison Injection, Acid Spray) actually breaks the CC instantly.

It's another skill that I think could do with a buff or revamp. You could remove the CC portion entirely, and make it instead knock back & throw some schrapnel in the ground that would immobilize the opponent. That way, you'd get some area denial and would be able to more easily kite your opponent.

Kind of like sorc mines, except that they'd get applied infront of the opponent after a knockback.

Still wouldn't work against ambush though (as it's a teleport & doesn't run through them).

I'd do all this in addition to increasing max range of all bow attacks, and increasing travel speed of snipe (so you can't combo multiple attacks from max range with it & make them land at the same time).

Also, it'd be nice to have stamina pets that you can have on target - pets that could stun or root the person they're attacking. But I doubt this is anything that ZOS could do within one patch cycle :P

These changes would make bow focused builds very viable.

Another option: give bow a passive that allows you to use skills while sprinting. This could make kiting easier with bow.

Btw are you Decimus? From youtube?

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2016

I play StamNB Redguard archer in PvP and I am having a blast. The build works just fine in PvE too. Bombard is part of the rotation and is one of my go to skills to stop gap closing. It has proven to be a very important utility tool in stopping MagNB bombers and pulling other people out of stealth. It has a very small aiming learning curve, but as someone who has played Templar w/ Sweeps I found no difficulty using it.

Don't forget one important thing OP, is that the Light Attack and Heavy attack is very important. Weaving is important to going mainly bow, I have killed people hitting them with x4 LA > Spectral Bow. I have out right killed players who kept roll dodging and I would just LA/HA them down. Don't forget we have a Bow CP star. At 67 points into that star I can pull off some nasty LA/HA and I'm not even running DK!

We also need to look forward to poison buffs on our Bow OP. Next update will be very very interesting for us Bow specialists. Because while we're in a group of friends in Cyrodiil. Us bow users can sit in the back, pop a poison and really bring some strong assist roles in gunning down high profile targets. Getting hit with some of those poisons is going to suck for the enemy.

That is only the tip of the iceberg.

Birdovic · May 2016

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Im very curious for the poisons, too.

But don't forget the damage on the poisons will be reduced and is way higher on PTS than intended for its live implementation.

But yeah, we will see. Bows fast attack speed will sure proc poisons quite often, and be really great for cc's or making LA spam stronger, or drain resources

DDuke · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Doesn't Snipe already do that though? When you use Snipe it enables your Light and Heavy Attacks to strike at the same range Snipe can already hit for a short time. If you're rotating between Snipe and regular attacks, you can keep the increased range for longer. It's already long enough for me to follow a Snipe with 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, 1 Heavy and 2 Light bow attacks for max Hawkeye bonus. Hawkeye then lasts long enough to cast 2 Snipes and 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, repeating the pattern over again.

Well yes, the other morph of snipe does increase range of your other bow skills - but only after you hit someone with it (and it can be purged afaik). It's the white aura you get above you sometimes, when someone hits you with Snipe.

Also, it gives only 5m more range on bow skills (Poison Arrow 28m->33m, Volley 25m->30m, Scatter Shot 10m->15m, Arrow Spray 20m->25m, Focused Aim 35m->40m).

I don't think it's a good option atm since you give up Major Defile from Lethal Arrow for it.

So basicly all you can do from long range is spam Snipe. All other skills are purely utility, because if you're in range of using them you're in range of gap closers as well and using bow skills at melee range, well...

Speaking of which, there's some major anti-synergy between Scatter Shot & other bow skills.

Scatter Shot has a maximum radius of 10m (15m with Focused Aim), where as rest of the bow kit rewards & is focused on you staying at long range. Also, it only afflicts disorient on the opponent, which means your other bow skills (Lethal Arrow poison status effect, Poison Injection, Acid Spray) actually breaks the CC instantly.

It's another skill that I think could do with a buff or revamp. You could remove the CC portion entirely, and make it instead knock back & throw some schrapnel in the ground that would immobilize the opponent. That way, you'd get some area denial and would be able to more easily kite your opponent.

Kind of like sorc mines, except that they'd get applied infront of the opponent after a knockback.

Still wouldn't work against ambush though (as it's a teleport & doesn't run through them).

I'd do all this in addition to increasing max range of all bow attacks, and increasing travel speed of snipe (so you can't combo multiple attacks from max range with it & make them land at the same time).

Also, it'd be nice to have stamina pets that you can have on target - pets that could stun or root the person they're attacking. But I doubt this is anything that ZOS could do within one patch cycle :P

These changes would make bow focused builds very viable.

Another option: give bow a passive that allows you to use skills while sprinting. This could make kiting easier with bow.

Btw are you Decimus? From youtube?

Possibly

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I play StamNB Redguard archer in PvP and I am having a blast. The build works just fine in PvE too. Bombard is part of the rotation and is one of my go to skills to stop gap closing. It has proven to be a very important utility tool in stopping MagNB bombers and pulling other people out of stealth. It has a very small aiming learning curve, but as someone who has played Templar w/ Sweeps I found no difficulty using it.

Don't forget one important thing OP, is that the Light Attack and Heavy attack is very important. Weaving is important to going mainly bow, I have killed people hitting them with x4 LA > Spectral Bow. I have out right killed players who kept roll dodging and I would just LA/HA them down. Don't forget we have a Bow CP star. At 67 points into that star I can pull off some nasty LA/HA and I'm not even running DK!

We also need to look forward to poison buffs on our Bow OP. Next update will be very very interesting for us Bow specialists. Because while we're in a group of friends in Cyrodiil. Us bow users can sit in the back, pop a poison and really bring some strong assist roles in gunning down high profile targets. Getting hit with some of those poisons is going to suck for the enemy.

That is only the tip of the iceberg.

A bow focused build can work currently, but it always fills a niche role. Either you're ganking (and then swapping to dual wield or 2H if it doesn't work) or you have a group to back you up and you're acting as kind of a support, rooting enemies.

But in no scenario is a bow focused build currently working, when you are actually being focused and targeted by the enemy. You're always better off just using Dual Wield or 2H as your primary weapons, maybe using bow to apply bombard/poison injection and then swapping back to your "main bar".

What I'd like to see is the ascension of bow from the "niche/off bar" territory to being a viable choice as your main weapon, something you can play competitively with and not just have as a "sideshow", and you can't have that if gap closers negate your entire build.

You can bombard someone, and that someone will just roll dodge+shuffle & crit rush you (or Ambush, since teleports dont care about immobilizes) - snare you & deal more dmg to you than you can deal, forcing you to swap to DW/2H to compete with the damage.

For that reason, bow needs to be buffed to bring it on par with other weapons - without making it even stronger in Xv1 or ganking.

Also, please don't put points into light/heavy attack damage. You can put points into Mighty instead and increase both the light/heavy attack damage and skill damage as well ;P

If you have 100 in mighty already, Precise Strikes or Thaumaturge is a better choice than bow passive.

DDuke · May 2016

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

@Takes-No-Prisoner

Im very curious for the poisons, too.

But don't forget the damage on the poisons will be reduced and is way higher on PTS than intended for its live implementation.

But yeah, we will see. Bows fast attack speed will sure proc poisons quite often, and be really great for cc's or making LA spam stronger, or drain resources

Poisons will have a 10 second cooldown, so it doesn't matter what your attack speed is (light attack speed is the same for all weapons btw, heavy attack varies).

Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:
Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.

There was a bunch of other interesting stuff about poisons posted:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2931222#Comment_2931222

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I play StamNB Redguard archer in PvP and I am having a blast. The build works just fine in PvE too. Bombard is part of the rotation and is one of my go to skills to stop gap closing. It has proven to be a very important utility tool in stopping MagNB bombers and pulling other people out of stealth. It has a very small aiming learning curve, but as someone who has played Templar w/ Sweeps I found no difficulty using it.

Don't forget one important thing OP, is that the Light Attack and Heavy attack is very important. Weaving is important to going mainly bow, I have killed people hitting them with x4 LA > Spectral Bow. I have out right killed players who kept roll dodging and I would just LA/HA them down. Don't forget we have a Bow CP star. At 67 points into that star I can pull off some nasty LA/HA and I'm not even running DK!

We also need to look forward to poison buffs on our Bow OP. Next update will be very very interesting for us Bow specialists. Because while we're in a group of friends in Cyrodiil. Us bow users can sit in the back, pop a poison and really bring some strong assist roles in gunning down high profile targets. Getting hit with some of those poisons is going to suck for the enemy.

That is only the tip of the iceberg.

Wow I didn't know that these poisons were that ridiculous.

Question about assassins scourge is the dmg of the ability good enough to warrant the use of it in pvp since ut now scales with mighty?

I also play Stam Redguard Archer and yeah bombard does have a learning curve to aim with it unfortunately I play on console

Anti_Virus · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Doesn't Snipe already do that though? When you use Snipe it enables your Light and Heavy Attacks to strike at the same range Snipe can already hit for a short time. If you're rotating between Snipe and regular attacks, you can keep the increased range for longer. It's already long enough for me to follow a Snipe with 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, 1 Heavy and 2 Light bow attacks for max Hawkeye bonus. Hawkeye then lasts long enough to cast 2 Snipes and 1 Venom Arrow or Acid Spray, repeating the pattern over again.

Well yes, the other morph of snipe does increase range of your other bow skills - but only after you hit someone with it (and it can be purged afaik). It's the white aura you get above you sometimes, when someone hits you with Snipe.

Also, it gives only 5m more range on bow skills (Poison Arrow 28m->33m, Volley 25m->30m, Scatter Shot 10m->15m, Arrow Spray 20m->25m, Focused Aim 35m->40m).

I don't think it's a good option atm since you give up Major Defile from Lethal Arrow for it.

So basicly all you can do from long range is spam Snipe. All other skills are purely utility, because if you're in range of using them you're in range of gap closers as well and using bow skills at melee range, well...

Speaking of which, there's some major anti-synergy between Scatter Shot & other bow skills.

Scatter Shot has a maximum radius of 10m (15m with Focused Aim), where as rest of the bow kit rewards & is focused on you staying at long range. Also, it only afflicts disorient on the opponent, which means your other bow skills (Lethal Arrow poison status effect, Poison Injection, Acid Spray) actually breaks the CC instantly.

It's another skill that I think could do with a buff or revamp. You could remove the CC portion entirely, and make it instead knock back & throw some schrapnel in the ground that would immobilize the opponent. That way, you'd get some area denial and would be able to more easily kite your opponent.

Kind of like sorc mines, except that they'd get applied infront of the opponent after a knockback.

Still wouldn't work against ambush though (as it's a teleport & doesn't run through them).

I'd do all this in addition to increasing max range of all bow attacks, and increasing travel speed of snipe (so you can't combo multiple attacks from max range with it & make them land at the same time).

Also, it'd be nice to have stamina pets that you can have on target - pets that could stun or root the person they're attacking. But I doubt this is anything that ZOS could do within one patch cycle :P

These changes would make bow focused builds very viable.

Another option: give bow a passive that allows you to use skills while sprinting. This could make kiting easier with bow.

Btw are you Decimus? From youtube?

Possibly

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I play StamNB Redguard archer in PvP and I am having a blast. The build works just fine in PvE too. Bombard is part of the rotation and is one of my go to skills to stop gap closing. It has proven to be a very important utility tool in stopping MagNB bombers and pulling other people out of stealth. It has a very small aiming learning curve, but as someone who has played Templar w/ Sweeps I found no difficulty using it.

Don't forget one important thing OP, is that the Light Attack and Heavy attack is very important. Weaving is important to going mainly bow, I have killed people hitting them with x4 LA > Spectral Bow. I have out right killed players who kept roll dodging and I would just LA/HA them down. Don't forget we have a Bow CP star. At 67 points into that star I can pull off some nasty LA/HA and I'm not even running DK!

We also need to look forward to poison buffs on our Bow OP. Next update will be very very interesting for us Bow specialists. Because while we're in a group of friends in Cyrodiil. Us bow users can sit in the back, pop a poison and really bring some strong assist roles in gunning down high profile targets. Getting hit with some of those poisons is going to suck for the enemy.

That is only the tip of the iceberg.

A bow focused build can work currently, but it always fills a niche role. Either you're ganking (and then swapping to dual wield or 2H if it doesn't work) or you have a group to back you up and you're acting as kind of a support, rooting enemies.

But in no scenario is a bow focused build currently working, when you are actually being focused and targeted by the enemy. You're always better off just using Dual Wield or 2H as your primary weapons, maybe using bow to apply bombard/poison injection and then swapping back to your "main bar".

What I'd like to see is the ascension of bow from the "niche/off bar" territory to being a viable choice as your main weapon, something you can play competitively with and not just have as a "sideshow", and you can't have that if gap closers negate your entire build.

You can bombard someone, and that someone will just roll dodge+shuffle & crit rush you (or Ambush, since teleports dont care about immobilizes) - snare you & deal more dmg to you than you can deal, forcing you to swap to DW/2H to compete with the damage.

For that reason, bow needs to be buffed to bring it on par with other weapons - without making it even stronger in Xv1 or ganking.

Also, please don't put points into light/heavy attack damage. You can put points into Mighty instead and increase both the light/heavy attack damage and skill damage as well ;P

If you have 100 in mighty already, Precise Strikes or Thaumaturge is a better choice than bow passive.

Wow you pretty much sumed up all the bow problems in one post. Fingers crossed for bow buffs in future updates.

Birdovic · May 2016

@DDuke

Nice, didnt know they change Cooldowns.

Also for the attack speed, yea was an error. I remembered the increased Damage as Speed instead:

From Imperial City Natch Potes:

Bow
Increased the overall damage from Bow light attacks by 16%.
Arrows are now easier to see while they’re traveling to your knee.
...
.
.

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2016

@DDuke

I have 100 in Mighty already. I am not interested in investing in those other Stars at this very moment, since I am happy with where I am at with it. For science sake, I will revisit those stars and see how the build gels with it.

With all the points you mentioned about bow, I have to ask, how do you accurately buff bow and not make it OP yet let it keep its utility? Bow is pretty borderline cheesey at this point with the stacking damage potential it kind of has. A increase to range would be nice, but with poisons on the horizon we'd have to wait and see how that plays out even if poison has cooldown.

Not understanding what you mean about Bombard. Though I have dealt fine with folks dodging/shuffling out of the damage. I hit targets with it in PvP and it applies root. But if I stay out of the gap close range I can harass the player to force him to spend resources to get to me. And when its CQC time I pull out 2H anyway. We both know not to stay bow at close range anyway.

@ShadowStarKing

I would recommend using Assassin's Scourge when you get the proc. Right now the damage is meh because its magical, but yeah I will be all about that when it drops.

As for aiming Bombard, just make sure you line up the cross hairs and fire. The cone on it is not as forgiving as Templars Sweeps its much more of a narrow cone. So your objective when hitting a target is to make sure they are right in the middle of the arrows.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

By design magicka builds are locked to be more ranged, while stamina mostly forced to be mele, which is logical: stam people have huge amount of benefits and now wants not only close combat superiority, but also range combat - it's just bad it's destroying everything which can be considered as 'balance'.

Balance - is situation where choice between magicka and stamina isn't obvious and you have different pros and cons which you must consider.

If you want pew-pew - get magicka, and deal with it's 'problems', which is: no more HoT which heals you for 2k noncrit every second, no more roll-dodge, no more infinite break free, no more major expedition from roll-dodge(you can still get it if you will use bow as weapon, but will you roll dodge to spent insanely precious stamina for it?), etc.

Helluin · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Probably ESO is the only MMORPG I played without a proper ranged bow build and a proper ranged build in general.
Pre 1.6 with a NB I was using bow + Impale, Crippling Grasp and Swallow Soul/Funnel Health: in exp when contents were challenging at the beginning it was great, in end game there were better options, in PvP gap closers and reflecting skills were the main issue.
Nowadays as ranged builds the situation is better for magicka but surely both stamina and magicka builds have anyway to go melee for several reasons and skills.

With DB patch, Silver Shards could become more interesting even if, being AoE, its ST damage is not that high.
Snipe has a flight time that is really long, this is more a problem than the cast time; I'd prefer cast time or travelling time reduced and damage scaled down accordingly.

Surely gap closers have an excessive range in this game and amongst gap closers there should be a different range according to class and skill.
Scatter Shot and morphs should have the same range of gap closers or 17-18 meters at least.
If you check Destructive Touch (with destruction staff), this is the default range, while Destructive Reach offers even a lot more range.

Last but not least Reflecting skills should reduce the range of ranged skills used; if you want to be able to reflect, then gap closers and ranged skills should have a malus otherwise "reflect" should have been "deflect" since the beginning.
The problem is "how can you balance this with two different active bars and multiple class and non class skills"?
I used often Defensive Posture and Reflective Scales and honestly these two skills make sense with a bunker or melee build but they have no trade-off.
The irony is, which is the best stamina dd class probably even more with DB patch?
A partial solution can be: Fiery Grip and Unrelenting Grip should keep their range, while Empowering Chains like all the other gap closers (classes, weapons and every skill line) should have less range than now.
Silver Leash should have the same range of Fiery and Unrelenting Grip.
Dragon Leap and morphs should keep their range since they are Ultimates.

Sugaroverdose · May 2016

Helluin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Some valid points there.

What I think is the main problem of bow focused builds and what keeps them from being viable is the existence of gap closers.

In other MMOs, these gap closers usually have a cooldown & if you're able to bait the gap closer & then disengage from the opponent, you're usually able to kite with the ranged build.

ESO does not have these cooldowns however, meaning a melee build can close the distance pretty much whenever he wants and negate any benefits you might have with a bow build.

There is a solution however.

Increase the range of all bow skills (and light/heavy attacks) to match that of Snipe.

This would mean that you'd be able to deal semi-meaningful damage to opponent without being in their gap closer range - but you'd still have to face the opponent while shooting at them and wouldn't be able to sprint of course while using those skills, meaning they'd be able to catch you up with sprint & then using gap closer when in range.

I think this would greatly increase the viability of bow builds & keep them from being just the off bar for applying Poison Injection.

Also, I believe one of the Sinpe could be buffed somehow (maybe not burst damage, but give it something to make it more worth slotting).

Probably ESO is the only MMORPG I played without a proper ranged bow build and a proper ranged build in general.
Pre 1.6 with a NB I was using bow + Impale, Crippling Grasp and Swallow Soul/Funnel Health: in exp when contents were challenging at the beginning it was great, in end game there were better options, in PvP gap closers and reflecting skills were the main issue.
Nowadays as ranged builds the situation is better for magicka but surely both stamina and magicka builds have anyway to go melee for several reasons and skills.

With DB patch, Silver Shards could become more interesting even if, being AoE, its ST damage is not that high.
Snipe has a flight time that is really long, this is more a problem than the cast time; I'd prefer cast time or travelling time reduced and damage scaled down accordingly.

Surely gap closers have an excessive range in this game and amongst gap closers there should be a different range according to class and skill.
Scatter Shot and morphs should have the same range of gap closers or 17-18 meters at least.
If you check Destructive Touch (with destruction staff), this is the default range, while Destructive Reach offers even a lot more range.

Last but not least Reflecting skills should reduce the range of ranged skills used; if you want to be able to reflect, then gap closers and ranged skills should have a malus otherwise "reflect" should have been "deflect" since the beginning.
The problem is "how can you balance this with two different active bars and multiple class and non class skills"?
I used often Defensive Posture and Reflective Scales and honestly these two skills make sense with a bunker or melee build but they have no trade-off.
The irony is, which is the best stamina dd class probably even more with DB patch?
A partial solution can be: Fiery Grip and Unrelenting Grip should keep their range, while Empowering Chains like all the other gap closers (classes, weapons and every skill line) should have less range than now.
Silver Leash should have the same range of Fiery and Unrelenting Grip.
Dragon Leap and morphs should keep their range since they are Ultimates.

You spend two of ten skill slots and this is not tradeoff? One of them is basic class-defining ability.
Reducing gapclosers and reflects distance will make focused aim spam №1 meta and only stamina builds who also has bow will have reliable counter to it.

leepalmer95 · May 2016

Easy bow build. Stam nb.

5x eternal hunt - Mobilise easy soft cc to keep range.
5x marksmen - Obvious reasons.
1 Bloodspawn
1 Kena.

Bar 1 Bow - Ult - Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bombard - Root.
Draining shot - cc with snare.
Crit cloak - Free crit and some survivability.
Psn Injection - Your mean dps skill which you will weave, can also use venom arrow if you prefer.
Relentless Focus - Dmg buff/ regen buff as well as the burst in the build.

Bar 2 - 2h - Incap strike/ Meteor/ Soul tether/ ww Etc.. Person choice.

Rally - Obvious reasons
Shuffle - Obvious reasons
Shadow image - Minor main, extra dmg as well as the best mobility in the game.
Vigor - Heal obviously.
Mass hysteria/ Sa/ Free slot basically.

Pretty sure that will work fine, You'll be dodge rolling a lot hence the high regen so spec into roll reduction. Should be easy enough to play, buff up, stick shadow image. CC as soon as you can, root when you want, weave with psn injection. Use relentless proc, cloak when needed.

Takes-No-Prisoner · May 2016

So many fun creative things you can do with Shadow Image

I have seen MagNB buff up, pop it, go into a enemy blob to rekt face then teleport into the keep safely 1.0

.

Hope you don't mind if I shamelessly steal/science that build leepalmer 1.0