The Explaination of SHUFFLE STACK

brandishsteel · April 2016

Before your read this thread , make sure u understand Shuffle Stack is NOT real

The reason why I post this thread is because there's always some salty people whisper me after I killed them , they said I am using shuffle exploit which they don't know how to use it, and they keep asking me how to do it.

We always see some good player running around and 20 people chase behind him, takes forever to kill him.
So, how the hell does it happen ?

1.They are running shuffle so they have already 20% dodge chance

2.They are dodge rolling when people chase them so this prevent projectile hit them ( u can dodge projectile)

3. Almost every "Shuffle stack" player use bow as back bar , after dodge roll the increasing moving speed make your short distance attack fail. ( they already move out of your range when u attack them with wrecking blow , surprise attack , jabs and other main spammable short range dps skill )

4. U can't dmg them doesn't mean they dodge it, if a player with 7 impen gear and high healing vigor (18k tooltip) up all the time , how do u suppose to dmg them with your 5k wrecking blow tooltip dmg ? And lots of low dmg player in pvp blame this as "Shuffle stack ignore 100% of my attack "

5. Shuffle skill makes them immune to snare , so they can play their games on the rock with high mobility ( line of sight) which makes your attack failed.

This is how people "Shuffle stack", please stop asking how to shuffle stack after u read this thread.

And have fun with "Shuffle stack"

ManwithBeard9 · April 2016

Except when people on PC have add ons like FTC or Combat Cloud itll show a zero in a certain color if an attack was dodged. So people know they hit them even if the damage was out healed on the health bar. Theres also been times where someone was surrounded by people and still took 10 seconds to kill.

Just because YOU dont know how the to exploit it doesnt mean others dont.

chaserstorm16909 · April 2016

Every time I pvp in the imperial city, there are always players that dodge several of my attacks in a row. Sometimes even up to four or five in a row without roll dodging. Can that happen? Yes. Should it happen consistently whenever I play? No. The odds of dodging four in a row with only a 20% dodge chance is 1 in 625.

glavius · April 2016

The odds of dodging 4 in a row is 1 in 625.
If target already dodged an attack, the odds of him dodging 3 more is 1 in 125. Not that unlikely and bound to happen quite often.

artal · April 2016

First of all there are people that are exploiting this. Its a known fact. I heard how to do it, but its not my forte so I didn't even tested it (heard it from one good streamer so info should be solid). With my shuffle up i avoid attack here and there, but when im focused by multiple opponents i don't really feel like I'm dodging at all. On other hand i run at few people that are dodging so many attacks in a row without actually dodge rolling. But the thing is they do it consistently.

However everything OP stated is correct. With proper use of shuffle and other mechanics you can be quite hard to hit and accused of shuffle stacking.

Sunburnt_Penguin · April 2016

artal wrote: »

First of all there are people that are exploiting this. Its a known fact. I heard how to do it, but its not my forte so I didn't even tested it (heard it from one good streamer so info should be solid). With my shuffle up i avoid attack here and there, but when im focused by multiple opponents i don't really feel like I'm dodging at all. On other hand i run at few people that are dodging so many attacks in a row without actually dodge rolling. But the thing is they do it consistently.

However everything OP stated is correct. With proper use of shuffle and other mechanics you can be quite hard to hit and accused of shuffle stacking.

@artal have you messaged ZOS to let them know how to do it?

Panth141 · April 2016

glavius wrote: »

The odds of dodging 4 in a row is 1 in 625.
If target already dodged an attack, the odds of him dodging 3 more is 1 in 125. Not that unlikely and bound to happen quite often.

You shouldn't start taking probabilities part way through your trial. Each dodge is independent at 20%, yes, but nonetheless the probability is 1/625 for four dodges. A dodge on the first attack can't be used to increase or decrease the probability of the next 3 - the probabilities calculated before and during combat are separate calculations.

If you work it out in this way, you're effectively ignoring the probability of the 4 dodge event as a whole, resetting the whole scenario after the first dodge and doing the calculation from scratch.

The probability of dodging 4 in a row is 1/625. In theory you would expect it to happen once in 625 trials - whether the first attack in a trial is dodged does not affect this theory.

Kas · April 2016

Panth141 wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

The odds of dodging 4 in a row is 1 in 625.
If target already dodged an attack, the odds of him dodging 3 more is 1 in 125. Not that unlikely and bound to happen quite often.

You shouldn't start taking probabilities part way through your trial. Each dodge is independent at 20%, yes, but nonetheless the probability is 1/625 for four dodges. A dodge on the first attack can't be used to increase or decrease the probability of the next 3 - the probabilities calculated before and during combat are separate calculations.

If you work it out in this way, you're effectively ignoring the probability of the 4 dodge event as a whole, resetting the whole scenario after the first dodge and doing the calculation from scratch.

The probability of dodging 4 in a row is 1/625. In theory you would expect it to happen once in 625 trials - whether the first attack in a trial is dodged does not affect this theory.

likewise, you should never compare 4 in a row out of a larger series with 4 out of exactly 4 (which most people, who want to point out how improbably a dodge streak is, do)

leepalmer95 · April 2016

Just to make sure, the people who dodge attacks, are they actually dodging?

I've seen so many people complaing about dodge on a stream or something and the person their trying to kill is dodge rolling... xD

Things like force pulse or something which hits 3 times if someone dodge rolls come up 3 dodges.

Now add in the shuffle chance to actually dodge and shuffle could make them dodge you first attack and then a dodge roll will make them dodge all your other attacks.

It's amazing the shuffle bug only came too when people got combat text, now that they can see when someone dodges their attack's it's off of a sudden broken.

caeliusstarbreaker · April 2016

Panth141 wrote: »

glavius wrote: »

The odds of dodging 4 in a row is 1 in 625.
If target already dodged an attack, the odds of him dodging 3 more is 1 in 125. Not that unlikely and bound to happen quite often.

You shouldn't start taking probabilities part way through your trial. Each dodge is independent at 20%, yes, but nonetheless the probability is 1/625 for four dodges. A dodge on the first attack can't be used to increase or decrease the probability of the next 3 - the probabilities calculated before and during combat are separate calculations.

If you work it out in this way, you're effectively ignoring the probability of the 4 dodge event as a whole, resetting the whole scenario after the first dodge and doing the calculation from scratch.

The probability of dodging 4 in a row is 1/625. In theory you would expect it to happen once in 625 trials - whether the first attack in a trial is dodged does not affect this theory.

Yea but it's not the probability of dodge 4 in a row. It's the probability of 20% chance to dodge each one. If that makes any sense.

Jaiden · April 2016

Edited, I got confused bout something else

kadar · April 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we appreciate those in the know not posting the steps publicly, and we've reached out to some folks to get the information we need so it can get addressed. We're going to close this thread to avoid any temptation to discuss exploits as it's already traveling down that path. In the future, if you have information about a potential exploit, please PM a staff member privately. Thanks!

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Update: We took a look, and didn't see any instance of Shuffle stacking with itself. What we did notice was that when you cast Shuffle, two buffs are added to your character screen – Major Evasion (20s of 20% increased dodge chance) and Shuffle (.5s per medium armor piece, up to 3.5s). The Major Evasion buff grants the dodge bonus (which is what you may be thinking is stacking) while the Shuffle buff listed only increases the snare immunity duration for at most 3.5 seconds. The icons for each are the same; your character screen (or even a bufftracker add-on) will show multiple of the same icon in the event that Shuffle be recast before it runs out.

Also keep in mind that Shuffle gives you a 20% chance to dodge - this is more RNG than anything else, so it is in the realm of possibility that someone could dodge multiple times in a row.

Please let us know if you're seeing differently; if you have information, we'd appreciate a PM rather than posting it publicly. Thanks in advance, and hope this helps clear things up!

To my knowledge, this is ZOS last comment on the "shuffle stack."

So, no. It isn't a "known fact."

UmniiVenik · April 2016

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

Ahzek · April 2016

UmniiVenik wrote: »

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

This is, quite frankly, just wrong. Shuffle has no 100% dodge chance on the next hit. I have used it for quite a while now, and never have noticed such a mechanic (which would be pretty darn obvious after just using it a few times in a fight). If this were the case, people would use shuffle as a kind of "projectile cleanse" against frags etc.
Defenisve Posture on the other hand is bloody supposed to reflect the first projectile hitting you, as clearly stated by the tooltip "Bolster your defenses to reflect the next spell projectile targeting you back at the caster."

kadar · April 2016

Ahzek wrote: »

UmniiVenik wrote: »

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

This is, quite frankly, just wrong. Shuffle has no 100% dodge chance on the next hit. I have used it for quite a while now, and never have noticed such a mechanic (which would be pretty darn obvious after just using it a few times in a fight). If this were the case, people would use shuffle as a kind of "projectile cleanse" against frags etc.
Defenisve Posture on the other hand is bloody supposed to reflect the first projectile hitting you, as clearly stated by the tooltip "Bolster your defenses to reflect the next spell projectile targeting you back at the caster."

Yea, that doesn't even make sense. Completely wrong. And the supposed offenders don't go around spamming shuffle, either.
This is why things like this are so confusing and hard to nail down. People have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Wreuntzylla · April 2016

I love these threads simply because you learn exactly who is exploiting.

Rylana · April 2016

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I love these threads simply because you learn exactly who is exploiting.

ikr

NoFlash · April 2016

Will this be fixed for all platforms before DB release? Find out on the next episode of TESO.

ManDraKE · April 2016

UmniiVenik wrote: »

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

Yeah defensive posture is bugged, is doing exactly what the tooltip says LOL. You gotta love this ignorant post.

Abob · May 2016

Shuffle should just be removed.

rfennell_ESO · May 2016

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

UmniiVenik wrote: »

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

This is, quite frankly, just wrong. Shuffle has no 100% dodge chance on the next hit. I have used it for quite a while now, and never have noticed such a mechanic (which would be pretty darn obvious after just using it a few times in a fight). If this were the case, people would use shuffle as a kind of "projectile cleanse" against frags etc.
Defenisve Posture on the other hand is bloody supposed to reflect the first projectile hitting you, as clearly stated by the tooltip "Bolster your defenses to reflect the next spell projectile targeting you back at the caster."

Yea, that doesn't even make sense. Completely wrong. And the supposed offenders don't go around spamming shuffle, either.
This is why things like this are so confusing and hard to nail down. People have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I'm beginning to suspect it might not be a shuffle exploit.

The shuffle dodges might just be an anomaly caused by the sheer amount of people using shuffle now due to the nature of pvp right now.

Now there might be a stamina bug.... one that makes stamina unlimited in some way. Because I'm seeing people dodge roll forever and/or sprint forever.

Wreuntzylla · May 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

UmniiVenik wrote: »

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

This is, quite frankly, just wrong. Shuffle has no 100% dodge chance on the next hit. I have used it for quite a while now, and never have noticed such a mechanic (which would be pretty darn obvious after just using it a few times in a fight). If this were the case, people would use shuffle as a kind of "projectile cleanse" against frags etc.
Defenisve Posture on the other hand is bloody supposed to reflect the first projectile hitting you, as clearly stated by the tooltip "Bolster your defenses to reflect the next spell projectile targeting you back at the caster."

Yea, that doesn't even make sense. Completely wrong. And the supposed offenders don't go around spamming shuffle, either.
This is why things like this are so confusing and hard to nail down. People have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I'm beginning to suspect it might not be a shuffle exploit.

The shuffle dodges might just be an anomaly caused by the sheer amount of people using shuffle now due to the nature of pvp right now.

Now there might be a stamina bug.... one that makes stamina unlimited in some way. Because I'm seeing people dodge roll forever and/or sprint forever.

An anomaly that is much harder to occur than winning powerball and happens over and over on the same players? Maybe a singularity in space time that favors certain people?

It's probably not a stamina bug. Typically these people are wearing Willow's Path and have a large number of points invested in tumbling. I tried it and it is a great 1v1 setup but with greater numbers you explode easily due to having invested in tumbling instead of resistances.

rfennell_ESO · May 2016

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ahzek wrote: »

UmniiVenik wrote: »

Well it's not right information:
Shuffle is not stucking, but after using it gives 100% evasion for first hit, u just need to re-aply it. Same bug happens with Defensive Posture, first hit always'll be reflected.
Magika skill Blur works correct. Something works wrong in stamina mechanics.

This is, quite frankly, just wrong. Shuffle has no 100% dodge chance on the next hit. I have used it for quite a while now, and never have noticed such a mechanic (which would be pretty darn obvious after just using it a few times in a fight). If this were the case, people would use shuffle as a kind of "projectile cleanse" against frags etc.
Defenisve Posture on the other hand is bloody supposed to reflect the first projectile hitting you, as clearly stated by the tooltip "Bolster your defenses to reflect the next spell projectile targeting you back at the caster."

Yea, that doesn't even make sense. Completely wrong. And the supposed offenders don't go around spamming shuffle, either.
This is why things like this are so confusing and hard to nail down. People have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I'm beginning to suspect it might not be a shuffle exploit.

The shuffle dodges might just be an anomaly caused by the sheer amount of people using shuffle now due to the nature of pvp right now.

Now there might be a stamina bug.... one that makes stamina unlimited in some way. Because I'm seeing people dodge roll forever and/or sprint forever.

An anomaly that is much harder to occur than winning powerball and happens over and over on the same players? Maybe a singularity in space time that favors certain people?

It's probably not a stamina bug. Typically these people are wearing Willow's Path and have a large number of points invested in tumbling. I tried it and it is a great 1v1 setup but with greater numbers you explode easily due to having invested in tumbling instead of resistances.

I rightly don't know.

A lot of the roll forever types are also using the Eternal Hunt set, which precludes them from using willow's path.

Someone knows what's up though, and they aren't going to own up.

RajinPVP · May 2016

All i can say is ... Jesus beam!!! You got zero chance to dodge this even if you stack 100% .. But yeah no such thing as shuffle stacking .. just a l2p issue there. Just ignore those scrubs who think they are better than you coz you are exploiting something that really dont exist!

1Grumpy_dunmer1 · May 2016

Remove annulment and shuffle! Pls Pls pls

Steel_Brightblade · May 2016

Hmm on xbox seen people did rezzing take over a dozen shotsyet take no damage and it clearly says "dodge" on almost every attack.

brandishsteel · May 2016

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

All i can say is ... Jesus beam!!! You got zero chance to dodge this even if you stack 100% .. But yeah no such thing as shuffle stacking .. just a l2p issue there. Just ignore those scrubs who think they are better than you coz you are exploiting something that really dont exist!

that's the truth

qrichou · May 2016

brandishsteel wrote: »

Before your read this thread , make sure u understand Shuffle Stack is NOT real

The reason why I post this thread is because there's always some salty people whisper me after I killed them , they said I am using shuffle exploit which they don't know how to use it, and they keep asking me how to do it.

We always see some good player running around and 20 people chase behind him, takes forever to kill him.
So, how the hell does it happen ?

1.They are running shuffle so they have already 20% dodge chance

2.They are dodge rolling when people chase them so this prevent projectile hit them ( u can dodge projectile)

3. Almost every "Shuffle stack" player use bow as back bar , after dodge roll the increasing moving speed make your short distance attack fail. ( they already move out of your range when u attack them with wrecking blow , surprise attack , jabs and other main spammable short range dps skill )

4. U can't dmg them doesn't mean they dodge it, if a player with 7 impen gear and high healing vigor (18k tooltip) up all the time , how do u suppose to dmg them with your 5k wrecking blow tooltip dmg ? And lots of low dmg player in pvp blame this as "Shuffle stack ignore 100% of my attack "

5. Shuffle skill makes them immune to snare , so they can play their games on the rock with high mobility ( line of sight) which makes your attack failed.

This is how people "Shuffle stack", please stop asking how to shuffle stack after u read this thread.

And have fun with "Shuffle stack"

I fermly dissagree and will explain why .
What can be dodged or simply show the "missed" icon ?
A fire ballista , yes a fire ballista , when you hit a player he/she takes dmg on impact and is burning but the flames seem to mis the burning player as do caltrops while they walk rolldodge thru them .

Scorging flare , used to uncloak and burn player and prevent them to enter cloak for x time , can an still is dodged and or missed
Icecomet ,Dodged /missed

But what annoys me the most , is the fact that some players are still able to dodge the radiant destruction or make it mis .

So i think its real , its glitched and exploited

Wreuntzylla · May 2016

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

All i can say is ... Jesus beam!!! You got zero chance to dodge this even if you stack 100% .. But yeah no such thing as shuffle stacking .. just a l2p issue there. Just ignore those scrubs who think they are better than you coz you are exploiting something that really dont exist!

@rfennell_ESO the one way we could really know is oddly not in this game. Many games I have played allow you to "inspect" another player, usually of the same realm. A couple of games posted each player's gear, skills and stats to a webpage at a regular interval and included all gear worn over the last 24 hours.

This lead to fairly fast exploit identification and fixes. If someone is dodge rolling 10x in a row but their build clearly doesn't support it...

It also lets metas stabilize fairly quickly compared to ESO where the meta seems to stabilize just when ZoS completely revamps...

rfennell_ESO · May 2016

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

All i can say is ... Jesus beam!!! You got zero chance to dodge this even if you stack 100% .. But yeah no such thing as shuffle stacking .. just a l2p issue there. Just ignore those scrubs who think they are better than you coz you are exploiting something that really dont exist!

@rfennell_ESO the one way we could really know is oddly not in this game. Many games I have played allow you to "inspect" another player, usually of the same realm. A couple of games posted each player's gear, skills and stats to a webpage at a regular interval and included all gear worn over the last 24 hours.

This lead to fairly fast exploit identification and fixes. If someone is dodge rolling 10x in a row but their build clearly doesn't support it...

It also lets metas stabilize fairly quickly compared to ESO where the meta seems to stabilize just when ZoS completely revamps...

That's a good point.

For the life of me I really do not know why ESO doesn't have some features that existed on mmo's years (or I guess at this point decades) ago.

Dark Age of Camelot had a web map of the contest rvr realm war and what was held. Eso, no out of game info regarding nearly anything. It's perplexing as to why they don't have these simple features.

Wow had viewable offline characters (of course as per your point, the "exploiters" would just log out in different gear or naked). Why there is nothing remotely like this for eso... I'm clueless and a bit disappointed.

Eso has these forums and little to no information online.

On to a totally different point though... what info that is online is usually outdated and you have to scour through sites to try and find ones that are properly updated.

I don't doubt that there was or is a bug with shuffle in some form... There have been bugs with stamina, roll dodge, blocking and what not from the get go to now in eso pvp.

I can tell you that many of those talking all high and mighty, the smack talking minority, have been past abusers of most of them.

GeorgeBlack · May 2016

Ima come forth and tell you this mister. I don't think that you exploit. I think that shuffle is the most stupid skill there is in ESO.

Eso is an action WSAD roll dodging/Blocking mmorpg. When I leap on you and you don't roll dodge or block shadow switch, counter attacking (some games have those cool class distinctive skills...) I want to see the impact of my attack on your HP.

This isn't Dota or LoL or another MOBA that your little character can use a skill and avoid dmg for some time without ACTIVELY avoiding attacks.

Shuffle is stupid. Remove it from the game and give us something worthy of a mmorpg ACTION game @Zos_GinaBruno