The Explaination of SHUFFLE STACK

KingYogi415

You most likely were shuffle stacking on accident. Notice how streamers overcast this skill, even on pc.

visionality

I'm playing several classes in PVP, one of them a stam NB and ofc with shuffle on - how else should I survive without shields and heavy armor? I dodge a lot, especially when being chased by a group of enraged "slow casters". I often laugh when I see how they try to hit me. Wrecking-blowing a dodging, running NB with a bow on his back? lol. Crystal frags? Double-lol.

Ofc I can be hit by every player intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game - and I AM being hit, that's how I die. The flamers and blamers and hate-whisperers always are those who are too slow with mouse and brain to understand what they are doing wrong. And even if I whisper back and explain their mistakes (sometimes I am in a generous mood), they do not react with "oh! that's interesting!" but with more hate-whispers of zero intelligence.

It can't be their fault ... nono ... if the target is not conveniently standing still so they can hit it even with zero skill, it MUST be cheating.

I'm playing a magica sorc and a magica templar in PVP too and I have NEVER encounterd a target that I couldn't hit. But even if I kill a dodgy NB right before their eyes, the slow-brainers in my group start flaming about shuffle-stacking just because they don't know how to play.

NeillMcAttack

I don't know what the story on PC is, what with cheat engines and all. But it is quite apparent that there is no 'exploit' or 'abusing' of shuffle on console. That is not to say that we don't have tons of overly survivable and hard hitting stam builds rolling around left right and centre. But the only exploit they are partaking in is clever use of legit game mechanics. Its wether or not these mechanics are good for PvP balance is the real question.

The window in which one dodges everything during a dodge roll is way too big IMO. One can still cast spells after completing a dodge roll and still have complete immunity. It's entirely possible to have 100% snare immunity up even though the tool tip reads 3.5 seconds with 7 medium because the window from dodge roll is so big. Go and test it, get a mate to cast a control spell on you immediately after you land from a dodge roll and you will STILL be dodging. That is why people think its stacking and such, because they are looking at someone standing on their feet whom are still dodging attacks.

People really need to wake up to what is actually going on lest we waste more of our time, and in actuality, waste more of the devs time searching for a "bug" that is actually working as intended. It's a matter of 'is that intention good for the combat system'?

Essiaga

brandishsteel wrote: »

Before your read this thread , make sure u understand Shuffle Stack is NOT real

The reason why I post this thread is because there's always some salty people whisper me after I killed them , they said I am using shuffle exploit which they don't know how to use it, and they keep asking me how to do it.

We always see some good player running around and 20 people chase behind him, takes forever to kill him.
So, how the hell does it happen ?

1.They are running shuffle so they have already 20% dodge chance

2.They are dodge rolling when people chase them so this prevent projectile hit them ( u can dodge projectile)

3. Almost every "Shuffle stack" player use bow as back bar , after dodge roll the increasing moving speed make your short distance attack fail. ( they already move out of your range when u attack them with wrecking blow , surprise attack , jabs and other main spammable short range dps skill )

4. U can't dmg them doesn't mean they dodge it, if a player with 7 impen gear and high healing vigor (18k tooltip) up all the time , how do u suppose to dmg them with your 5k wrecking blow tooltip dmg ? And lots of low dmg player in pvp blame this as "Shuffle stack ignore 100% of my attack "

5. Shuffle skill makes them immune to snare , so they can play their games on the rock with high mobility ( line of sight) which makes your attack failed.


This is how people "Shuffle stack", please stop asking how to shuffle stack after u read this thread.

And have fun with "Shuffle stack"

There in lies the problem. You are stacking a NB's ability to dodge, a Templar's ability to heal, NB/Sorc's movement speed, with immunity to snare etc ... and you never mentioned your actual class to say what it's particular advantages are. Cloak, Reflect, Mending, Fear, ...

Clearly you're a stamina build though and the advantage seems to be to be a stamina build as they have the benefits of sharing class specific buffs and skills that magicka builds can't get or must become a vampire to get.

ZOS has done a poor job balancing the top and bottom builds, and i think has given to much freedom to stam builds. They're not very unique. There needs to be more in class for them, rather then all build running vigor, rally, suffle ... and huge amounts of Weapon damge for mass amounts of HoTs you have to build to match.

Surgee

Just like blocking, make each successful dodge from shuffle cost significant amount of stamina. Problem solved. People will think twice before spamming shuffle. It should be a skill that you cast in case of big trouble just to survive (just like block). At the moment there's no trade off like with blocking.I still can't get my head around the fact that blocking drains stamina like crazy meanwhile dodging without actually dodge rolling costs basically nothing...and the best part is, you can continue to output insane amount of damage at the same time. Since ZOS is at it...let's give shield users the ability to block and do attacks in the same time/s

ToRelax

Surgee wrote: »

Just like blocking, make each successful dodge from shuffle cost significant amount of stamina. Problem solved. People will think twice before spamming shuffle. It should be a skill that you cast in case of big trouble just to survive (just like block). At the moment there's no trade off like with blocking.I still can't get my head around the fact that blocking drains stamina like crazy meanwhile dodging without actually dodge rolling costs basically nothing...and the best part is, you can continue to output insane amount of damage at the same time. Since ZOS is at it...let's give shield users the ability to block and do attacks in the same time/s

That's stupid, why would anyone waste stamina for an rng based defense like that when they need it most? It would also make it unsueable for magicka builds.

Hibbou

brandishsteel wrote: »

Before your read this thread , make sure u understand Shuffle Stack is NOT real

The reason why I post this thread is because there's always some salty people whisper me after I killed them , they said I am using shuffle exploit which they don't know how to use it, and they keep asking me how to do it.

We always see some good player running around and 20 people chase behind him, takes forever to kill him.
So, how the hell does it happen ?

1.They are running shuffle so they have already 20% dodge chance

2.They are dodge rolling when people chase them so this prevent projectile hit them ( u can dodge projectile)

3. Almost every "Shuffle stack" player use bow as back bar , after dodge roll the increasing moving speed make your short distance attack fail. ( they already move out of your range when u attack them with wrecking blow , surprise attack , jabs and other main spammable short range dps skill )

4. U can't dmg them doesn't mean they dodge it, if a player with 7 impen gear and high healing vigor (18k tooltip) up all the time , how do u suppose to dmg them with your 5k wrecking blow tooltip dmg ? And lots of low dmg player in pvp blame this as "Shuffle stack ignore 100% of my attack "

5. Shuffle skill makes them immune to snare , so they can play their games on the rock with high mobility ( line of sight) which makes your attack failed.


This is how people "Shuffle stack", please stop asking how to shuffle stack after u read this thread.

And have fun with "Shuffle stack"

1. 20% chances, so if the guys dodges 4 attacks, it s more likely 80% chances, if you want to compare what is really 20%, I invite you to try blur, and see how you dodge...

2. yes they are, but AOE aren't supposed to be dodgeable, and shuffle players seem to be quite good at dodging AOE

3. you can't cast most of the spamables if the target is not at range (for example surprise attack) so if they were really out of range, they would not be any animation at all, and they are not out of range for gap closer

4. 18k vigor makes 3.6k tick, so if a wreking blow hits with 5k, even if it ticks instantly, you will see health go a little down

5. shuffle skills make them imune to snare, correct! "Increases snare immunity duration by .5 seconds for each piece of Medium Armor equipped, up to 3.5 seconds." are you saying they are casting shuffle every 3,5 sec while dodge rolling every 3,5 sec? how much stamina do they have 1 million?

6. stop playing innocent victim there is an animation everytime you "dodge standing", and this animation happens way to often

Surgee

ToRelax wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

Just like blocking, make each successful dodge from shuffle cost significant amount of stamina. Problem solved. People will think twice before spamming shuffle. It should be a skill that you cast in case of big trouble just to survive (just like block). At the moment there's no trade off like with blocking.I still can't get my head around the fact that blocking drains stamina like crazy meanwhile dodging without actually dodge rolling costs basically nothing...and the best part is, you can continue to output insane amount of damage at the same time. Since ZOS is at it...let's give shield users the ability to block and do attacks in the same time/s

That's stupid, why would anyone waste stamina for an rng based defense like that when they need it most? It would also make it unsueable for magicka builds.

I don't see the problem. Lots of skills and sets are rng. Just increase the chance to proc more but make it cost a resource on success. Not usable by magicka builds? Simple, make 2 morphs, one for stamina and one for magicka with slightly different benefits. Many skills work like that.

At the moment shuffle is probably most used skill in ESO PVP. 7/10 players i meet have it constantly up...mages..assassins..tanks...everyone. It is an issue.

gamerguy757

How does one get 18k vigor? My max was at 11k

Hibbou

ToRelax wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

Just like blocking, make each successful dodge from shuffle cost significant amount of stamina. Problem solved. People will think twice before spamming shuffle. It should be a skill that you cast in case of big trouble just to survive (just like block). At the moment there's no trade off like with blocking.I still can't get my head around the fact that blocking drains stamina like crazy meanwhile dodging without actually dodge rolling costs basically nothing...and the best part is, you can continue to output insane amount of damage at the same time. Since ZOS is at it...let's give shield users the ability to block and do attacks in the same time/s

That's stupid, why would anyone waste stamina for an rng based defense like that when they need it most? It would also make it unsueable for magicka builds.

everybody uses it that s barely RNG, it proccs all the time, and when it proccs, you are invincible for4 seconds

KingYogi415

If you break cc's multiple times with shuffle it stacks! It's pretty easy to hit 40% dodge chance.
Expert stam players can hit 60-80%.

This is why even on pc all streamers will overcast this skill on purpose.

Forum broken, your welcome!

KingYogi415

I'm just sick of the exploit to win meta zos hides while top players abuse it and claim all others need to L2P.

This and how guilds hand off emp by having whole guilds suicide into a resource are ruining the integrity of the game. ZOS needs to pretend to care about the state of PVP to even start to help it.

ManDraKE

KingYogi415 wrote: »

If you break cc's multiple times with shuffle it stacks! It's pretty easy to hit 40% dodge chance.
Expert stam players can hit 60-80%.

This is why even on pc all streamers will overcast this skill on purpose.

Forum broken, your welcome!

That's false. Stop spreading every single stupidity you heard ingame, try thing for yourself before jumping into conclusions.

KingYogi415

@ManDraKE
I tested it for myself 2 months ago.

I was hoping it would be fixed by now, but people are still dragon leaping onto keeps, they can't even fix that.

Maybe they stealth patched it on pc, but I still see it plenty on console.

RinaldoGandolphi

Shuffle doesn't stack, atleast not in the sense folks think.

The reason you see people sometimes spam casting shuffle is because ti gives Root and Snare immunity, and when your being zerged roots and snares can easily get you killed, so they spam it to ensure their ability to move is not hindered so they can LOS of find other means to lessen incoming damage. Thats completely a legit use of the skill.

The dodge chance also does not stack(you can't get 40%, 60% or 80% dodge chance thats a flat out lie)

What happens is this:

When you use a stand dodge roll to dodge an attack you will also continue to dodge for 0.2 seconds AFTER the roll animation is finished(this is why often times you will see people bob and side step multiple attacks during this window) If you are wearing the Crusader Set it extends this dodge period after the roll by 0.3 seconds making the dodge window 0.5 secs after the roll animation.

Major Evasion works in a similar way. If Major Evasion procs it will dodge every attack that can be dodged with a standard dodge roll and will continue to dodge all attacks in that 0.2 sec window when it procs. So if you have 6 people attacking you with dodgeable single target attacks and Major Evasion procs it could dodge 6 attacks at once within that 0.2 sec window and its completely legit...its how the skill works unfortunately.

Shuffle is not bugged or exploitable, its just OP because of the way it scales, the more attacks you have coming at you, the greater your dodge chance is and the more attacks you will dodge. The issue with Shuffle is a lack of a cooldown on Major Evasion procs. Look at the Specters Eye set, it has a 3 second cooldown after procing Major Evasion and its still a very powerful set for some magic builds.

Simply put, Evasion and its morphs need a 3 sec cooldown on procs, and the dodge window after finishing a dodge roll needs to be reduced. Its creating too large of an i-frame window(immunity window to the majority of the games attacks) making it very unbalanced.

Imagine if Magic builds had a skill that granted them a 20% chance for a free 12k damage shield for 6 secs everytime they took damage with no cooldown, the QQ from stam builds would be immense to the point it would crash ZOS forums, yet its ok for them to get the same thing with dodge. its really lopsided, but it is what it is at this point.

X_NOVIA_X

All I can add, as I've never used shuffle, is that I've literally sent up 5+ spams (on console) of Snipe, and the victims did NOT dodge roll a single time, but all 5 missed. It may not technically be broken, but something about it needs to be SERIOUSLY relooked at, it's poor form to be able to do that while stacking dodge roll reduction CP and line of sighting. In my own opinion, that along with well fitted is ruining PVP for a A LOT of players I know from console. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

hrothbern

Autolycus wrote: »

Shuffle Stacking is as real as Damage Overflow. In other words, it exists only in the minds of those who choose to believe it. People will believe anything for one of two reasons:
1. They are afraid it may be true
2. They want it to be true

The act of dodge rolling takes some semblance of player skill. It requires actually paying attention to what your opponent is doing, not just mashing dodge roll and everything magically misses. I've seen and experienced the results of failed dodge rolling countless times. Those that are likely to complain and accuse others of "shuffle stacking" are, in most cases, failed attempts to recreate another player's success. And in most cases, it's really a simple explanation: the person they saw doing it successfully was paying attention to their opponents and timing their dodge rolls, simply keeping shuffle active. The person who tried to recreate it spammed shuffle and mashed their dodge roll and failed.

Furthermore, this is a separate concept from Major Evasion. One is an active buff with two separate benefits. The other is an active combat mechanic. Neither the act of dodge rolling, nor the Major Evasion buff, will compliment the other. The only thing these two concepts have in common is the tendency to refer to them both as "dodge."

Would it not be helpful if the API (interface ESO & Add-on) of ZOS would use different names for Evasion dodge and Roll dodge ?
Those different names show up in our Add-ons making clear what happened.

Our Add-on should show us:

1. Roll Dodge for an active roll dodge
2. Evasion Dodge for a passive evasion dodge from Evasion, Blur, Spectre's Eye set or Gossamer set.
3. Miss for invis
4. Blinded for Akatosh set

Would reduce the confusion
and if there are exploits being used, now or in the future, they should be easier to spot with better evidence from vids.

ManDraKE

KingYogi415 wrote: »

@ManDraKE
I tested it for myself 2 months ago.

I was hoping it would be fixed by now, but people are still dragon leaping onto keeps, they can't even fix that.

Maybe they stealth patched it on pc, but I still see it plenty on console.

stop lying dude. You can cc break and cast shuffle all you want, your evasion is still 30%. You didn't test anything, or if you did, you did it wrong, everyone has been trying to reproduce the shuffle stacking since the myth started, and nobody was able of do it. Devs asked to steps to reproduce this for weeks, NOBODY was able to find a way to shuffle stack, and "you did like 2 months ago"? GTFO.

And no, streamers are not shuffle stacking, they are casting shuffle a lot to get rid of snares. Classic hater that loves to talk withouth the slightly idea of how things actually work. Go hate some streamers if you like, but don't came here to spread false information.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

ya except when you use addons and it says dodge/dodge/dodge/dodge/ 7k/ dodge/dodge

Surgee

visionality wrote: »

I'm playing several classes in PVP, one of them a stam NB and ofc with shuffle on - how else should I survive without shields and heavy armor? I dodge a lot, especially when being chased by a group of enraged "slow casters". I often laugh when I see how they try to hit me. Wrecking-blowing a dodging, running NB with a bow on his back? lol. Crystal frags? Double-lol.

Ofc I can be hit by every player intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game - and I AM being hit, that's how I die. The flamers and blamers and hate-whisperers always are those who are too slow with mouse and brain to understand what they are doing wrong. And even if I whisper back and explain their mistakes (sometimes I am in a generous mood), they do not react with "oh! that's interesting!" but with more hate-whispers of zero intelligence.

It can't be their fault ... nono ... if the target is not conveniently standing still so they can hit it even with zero skill, it MUST be cheating.

I'm playing a magica sorc and a magica templar in PVP too and I have NEVER encounterd a target that I couldn't hit. But even if I kill a dodgy NB right before their eyes, the slow-brainers in my group start flaming about shuffle-stacking just because they don't know how to play.

Your way of thinking is exactly the problem. Builds that are purely made to output crazy amount of damage should not be able to survive attack from big group of people. There must be a trade-off. At the moment there is none and going anything else than full stamina + weapon damage and crit is pointless. High hp tank without shuffle and dodge spam will die in seconds when attacked by a group of players, while a shuffling NB with 20k hp can survive an army and kill few in the mean time without breaking a sweat. Survivability of pure damage builds in this game is ridiculous.

ToRelax

Surgee wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

I'm playing several classes in PVP, one of them a stam NB and ofc with shuffle on - how else should I survive without shields and heavy armor? I dodge a lot, especially when being chased by a group of enraged "slow casters". I often laugh when I see how they try to hit me. Wrecking-blowing a dodging, running NB with a bow on his back? lol. Crystal frags? Double-lol.

Ofc I can be hit by every player intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game - and I AM being hit, that's how I die. The flamers and blamers and hate-whisperers always are those who are too slow with mouse and brain to understand what they are doing wrong. And even if I whisper back and explain their mistakes (sometimes I am in a generous mood), they do not react with "oh! that's interesting!" but with more hate-whispers of zero intelligence.

It can't be their fault ... nono ... if the target is not conveniently standing still so they can hit it even with zero skill, it MUST be cheating.

I'm playing a magica sorc and a magica templar in PVP too and I have NEVER encounterd a target that I couldn't hit. But even if I kill a dodgy NB right before their eyes, the slow-brainers in my group start flaming about shuffle-stacking just because they don't know how to play.

Your way of thinking is exactly the problem. Builds that are purely made to output crazy amount of damage should not be able to survive attack from big group of people. There must be a trade-off. At the moment there is none and going anything else than full stamina + weapon damage and crit is pointless. High hp tank without shuffle and dodge spam will die in seconds when attacked by a group of players, while a shuffling NB with 20k hp can survive an army and kill few in the mean time without breaking a sweat. Survivability of pure damage builds in this game is ridiculous.

No, any type of tank who knows what they're doing are harder to kill than some 20k hp damage focused build. Just requires decent players to make sure the latter not simply outplays all his enemies and survives better than the tank by actually killing them.

Surgee

ToRelax wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

I'm playing several classes in PVP, one of them a stam NB and ofc with shuffle on - how else should I survive without shields and heavy armor? I dodge a lot, especially when being chased by a group of enraged "slow casters". I often laugh when I see how they try to hit me. Wrecking-blowing a dodging, running NB with a bow on his back? lol. Crystal frags? Double-lol.

Ofc I can be hit by every player intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game - and I AM being hit, that's how I die. The flamers and blamers and hate-whisperers always are those who are too slow with mouse and brain to understand what they are doing wrong. And even if I whisper back and explain their mistakes (sometimes I am in a generous mood), they do not react with "oh! that's interesting!" but with more hate-whispers of zero intelligence.

It can't be their fault ... nono ... if the target is not conveniently standing still so they can hit it even with zero skill, it MUST be cheating.

I'm playing a magica sorc and a magica templar in PVP too and I have NEVER encounterd a target that I couldn't hit. But even if I kill a dodgy NB right before their eyes, the slow-brainers in my group start flaming about shuffle-stacking just because they don't know how to play.

Your way of thinking is exactly the problem. Builds that are purely made to output crazy amount of damage should not be able to survive attack from big group of people. There must be a trade-off. At the moment there is none and going anything else than full stamina + weapon damage and crit is pointless. High hp tank without shuffle and dodge spam will die in seconds when attacked by a group of players, while a shuffling NB with 20k hp can survive an army and kill few in the mean time without breaking a sweat. Survivability of pure damage builds in this game is ridiculous.

No, any type of tank who knows what they're doing are harder to kill than some 20k hp damage focused build. Just requires decent players to make sure the latter not simply outplays all his enemies and survives better than the tank by actually killing them.

With full stam damage build, cast shuffle and dodge roll before major attacks and you're basically invincible while outputting crazy damage. There is a gap between roll dodge where you still dodge but can attack. Fairly easy to play. No hp/magicka tank can compete with that. As a tank you'd just stand there casting everything you got to stay alive few more seconds. The system is obviously flawed. How many hp/magicka builds you see these days in Cyrodil compared to stam builds?

ToRelax

Surgee wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

visionality wrote: »

I'm playing several classes in PVP, one of them a stam NB and ofc with shuffle on - how else should I survive without shields and heavy armor? I dodge a lot, especially when being chased by a group of enraged "slow casters". I often laugh when I see how they try to hit me. Wrecking-blowing a dodging, running NB with a bow on his back? lol. Crystal frags? Double-lol.

Ofc I can be hit by every player intelligent enough to understand the rules of the game - and I AM being hit, that's how I die. The flamers and blamers and hate-whisperers always are those who are too slow with mouse and brain to understand what they are doing wrong. And even if I whisper back and explain their mistakes (sometimes I am in a generous mood), they do not react with "oh! that's interesting!" but with more hate-whispers of zero intelligence.

It can't be their fault ... nono ... if the target is not conveniently standing still so they can hit it even with zero skill, it MUST be cheating.

I'm playing a magica sorc and a magica templar in PVP too and I have NEVER encounterd a target that I couldn't hit. But even if I kill a dodgy NB right before their eyes, the slow-brainers in my group start flaming about shuffle-stacking just because they don't know how to play.

Your way of thinking is exactly the problem. Builds that are purely made to output crazy amount of damage should not be able to survive attack from big group of people. There must be a trade-off. At the moment there is none and going anything else than full stamina + weapon damage and crit is pointless. High hp tank without shuffle and dodge spam will die in seconds when attacked by a group of players, while a shuffling NB with 20k hp can survive an army and kill few in the mean time without breaking a sweat. Survivability of pure damage builds in this game is ridiculous.

No, any type of tank who knows what they're doing are harder to kill than some 20k hp damage focused build. Just requires decent players to make sure the latter not simply outplays all his enemies and survives better than the tank by actually killing them.

With full stam damage build, cast shuffle and dodge roll before major attacks and you're basically invincible while outputting crazy damage. There is a gap between roll dodge where you still dodge but can attack. Fairly easy to play. No hp/magicka tank can compete with that. As a tank you'd just stand there casting everything you got to stay alive few more seconds. The system is obviously flawed. How many hp/magicka builds you see these days in Cyrodil compared to stam builds?

As I said, a good tank is harder to kill than a more damage focused build. I know how dodging works, and although it's very useful, against players who know what they're doing, you need to be able to take damage if you want to survive for an extended period of time.