Is shuffle working right

Jaronking · April 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Shuffle is 100% bugged in a game breaking way. Anyone who says otherwise is either ill-informed or covering up their use of it. When magika builds start running expensive stamina abilities you know it isn't performing as intended

Also, bugged shuffle + tava's = GG

OK what magica build have you seen used it I duel every day and I only fought one who used it and I destroyed him.

Lexxypwns · April 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Shuffle is 100% bugged in a game breaking way. Anyone who says otherwise is either ill-informed or covering up their use of it. When magika builds start running expensive stamina abilities you know it isn't performing as intended

Also, bugged shuffle + tava's = GG

OK what magica build have you seen used it I duel every day and I only fought one who used it and I destroyed him.

Ok bro, whatever you say.

I know for a fact shuffle is bugged, I helped someone test it and he was able to dodge 80%+ of several hundred attacks. Ironically, when it was time to re-do the testing for a video he was suddenly to busy for testing and blocked me on xbox.

Shuffle is absolutely bugged, best I can tell its something particular that bugs it, though I'm not certain of what. I fought a mageblade today using shuffle and it took me 8 minutes to kill him, despite using magelight and detect pots to keep him out of cloak, I just kept setting up burst time and time again til I finally wore him down despite large amounts of misses

Xsorus · April 2016

Its noticable after the patch for sure.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO · April 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Dude I don't use any Exploits and will stop using shuffle if it turns out it is.My point still stands its increase your Chance to proc a Dodge so its basic RNG they just got lucky or give their first son to RNGjesus.

I was trying to be funny.

I forgot the

, the

, and the

.

psychotic13 · April 2016

Definitely bugged, in the arena someone from DC jumped in the middle of like 10 of us, he had this ability active and it was so hard to kill him because he was dodging almost everything!

GreenSoup2HoT · April 2016

So Shuffle is believed to be bugged just upon use?

Which means anyone using the ability may be "exploiting" without even knowing it?

How is Nightblade Blur (20% dodge chance) comparing?

I'm wondering if its only shuffle. If someone could do some tests with this ability (Blur) would be great. Since they both do the same thing they should theoretically have similar results. Yes its RNG based i know and the values will be whack but its still a starting point for testing.

I always thought somthing was fishy with stamina dks 1vX. It seemed to good to be true to be dodging that often.

If anyone has any video they could post of their findings would be awesome. Right now i see no evidence other then comments. Videos are worth 1000 words right?

I'll see what i can do once i get back at home.

I have yet to see any shuffle users impact my gameplay. Most of the people dodging my bow abilities are rolling. However i know many of my guildies are up in arms over this issue.

Moglijuana · April 2016

Just press it a bunch of times. It seems to stack...hopefully everyone starts using it so they fix it...and then they can finally fix reflective scales while they're at it...three f**king weeks later. Because that isn't class breaking or anything

ZOS_GinaBruno · April 2016

Hey guys, we appreciate those in the know not posting the steps publicly, and we've reached out to some folks to get the information we need so it can get addressed. We're going to close this thread to avoid any temptation to discuss exploits as it's already traveling down that path. In the future, if you have information about a potential exploit, please PM a staff member privately. Thanks!

ZOS_GinaBruno · April 2016

Update: We took a look, and didn't see any instance of Shuffle stacking with itself. What we did notice was that when you cast Shuffle, two buffs are added to your character screen – Major Evasion (20s of 20% increased dodge chance) and Shuffle (.5s per medium armor piece, up to 3.5s). The Major Evasion buff grants the dodge bonus (which is what you may be thinking is stacking) while the Shuffle buff listed only increases the snare immunity duration for at most 3.5 seconds. The icons for each are the same; your character screen (or even a bufftracker add-on) will show multiple of the same icon in the event that Shuffle be recast before it runs out.

Also keep in mind that Shuffle gives you a 20% chance to dodge - this is more RNG than anything else, so it is in the realm of possibility that someone could dodge multiple times in a row.

Please let us know if you're seeing differently; if you have information, we'd appreciate a PM rather than posting it publicly. Thanks in advance, and hope this helps clear things up!

Komma · April 2016

We see differently because we play the game. People dodging 10 to 20 times in a row is not rng for 20%. Funny thing is that it is seen from certain people more than others. There is something broke with dodge. Why is it always our responsibility to find it? It is so game breaking that...imo...dodge should be removed and only roll dodge be left in game.

Waffennacht · April 2016

In my playing, unless it's something more than just hitting shuffle 4 times, I never got a huge didge amount

AddictionX · April 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

In my playing, unless it's something more than just hitting shuffle 4 times, I never got a huge didge amount

This I dont think there is a dodge bug. Clicking it multiple times has not increased dodge chance at all. I've been testing it and can not reproduce no matter what I do.

This has has been comming up more often, yet more and more it sounds like because its a magicka meta.

OdinForge · April 2016

If you think there is a shuffle bug, make a detailed video to prove it and let people know where to find it (don't forum link it).

stop making excuses, ZOS spoke on the matter.

[Edited to remove insulting content]

AddictionX · April 2016

There is something that keeps you dodging for a while longer if i remember correctly...

Waffennacht · April 2016

AddictionX wrote: »

There is something that keeps you dodging for a while longer if i remember correctly...

There is at least an armor that increases the dodge time, and one that increases immunity time.

AddictionX · April 2016

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

Back at early release of IC, I duelled a stamina DK that could dodge most of my attacks.

I am an obvious noob at duelling, so he didn't attack me back after first time he killed me, he just let me attack him and dodged closed to all my attacks.

He used shuffle, I bet he was wearing hist bark or some other dodge-set gear, and he rolledodged a few times. So I could hit him with 5/20 spells maybe. His dps was pathetic compared to my dps, however since he would dodge my attacks to the point where I ran out of resources, he could own me so bad...

I play a magicka templar... so I respecced my champion points and put them all into Elemental Expert (back then Thaumaturge would buff magicka dmg) and I used destro staff abilities, he could still drain me of resources by dodging most attacks.

I felt so molested and abused by that session >_>

I doubt he was using a bugged shuffle, however he was able to dodge 15/20 attacks as minimum by combining gear and skills + dodgerolling.

Thats how it was for me when i fought against revrb bash for the first time

kevlarto_ESO · April 2016

Komma wrote: »

We see differently because we play the game. People dodging 10 to 20 times in a row is not rng for 20%. Funny thing is that it is seen from certain people more than others. There is something broke with dodge. Why is it always our responsibility to find it? It is so game breaking that...imo...dodge should be removed and only roll dodge be left in game.

This ^^^ I can go with the RNG for 4 or 5 times in a row, but after that I am not buying it any longer, maybe test needs to be tested on the live server, come on out watch some of these players just stand there or sit on a horse and dodge, there is some thing up with it or elude, I know the time was stacking but what else is stacking.

Lexxypwns · April 2016

Guess I'm gonna run shuffle, since its not bugged, lel

AddictionX · April 2016

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Komma wrote: »

We see differently because we play the game. People dodging 10 to 20 times in a row is not rng for 20%. Funny thing is that it is seen from certain people more than others. There is something broke with dodge. Why is it always our responsibility to find it? It is so game breaking that...imo...dodge should be removed and only roll dodge be left in game.

This ^^^ I can go with the RNG for 4 or 5 times in a row, but after that I am not buying it any longer, maybe test needs to be tested on the live server, come on out watch some of these players just stand there or sit on a horse and dodge, there is some thing up with it or elude, I know the time was stacking but what else is stacking.

I did it, nothing happened... basically people dont even know whats causing this "bug" it must be something else.

A game where people are allowed to do this kind of thing and get away with it... but i guess ignorance is bliss if we didnt have people who will do whatever they can to gain the unfair advantage. Thats why I expose them.

kadar · April 2016

I use Shuffle constantly in Cyrodiil and have not experienced this bug/exploit on myself or another player.

Dagoth_Rac · April 2016

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I can go with the RNG for 4 or 5 times in a row, but after that I am not buying it any longer.

Odds of dodging X attacks in a row with 20% dodge chance:

1 = 20% (1 out of 5)
2 = 4% (1 out of 25)
3 = 0.8% (1 out of 125)
4 = 0.16% (1 out of 625)
5 = 0.032% (1 out of 3125)

With RNG, these things certainly can happen. But they should not be common occurrences. Even 3 in a row should happen less than 1% of the time. If we were dealing with small sample sizes, you might just be unlucky. But people don't spend the night in Cyrodiil and get off a handful of attacks. They attack hundreds or thousands of times. Seeing 3 or 4 or 5 get dodged in a row, on a regular basis, should not be happening with such large sample sizes.

sadownik · April 2016

Propably Z. as usuall just spammed the skill. And you need to put block in between. Its that simple. OFC you need to do it really fast.

GreenSoup2HoT · April 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

show previous quotes

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I can go with the RNG for 4 or 5 times in a row, but after that I am not buying it any longer.

Odds of dodging X attacks in a row with 20% dodge chance:

1 = 20% (1 out of 5)
2 = 4% (1 out of 25)
3 = 0.8% (1 out of 125)
4 = 0.16% (1 out of 625)
5 = 0.032% (1 out of 3125)

With RNG, these things certainly can happen. But they should not be common occurrences. Even 3 in a row should happen less than 1% of the time. If we were dealing with small sample sizes, you might just be unlucky. But people don't spend the night in Cyrodiil and get off a handful of attacks. They attack hundreds or thousands of times. Seeing 3 or 4 or 5 get dodged in a row, on a regular basis, should not be happening with such large sample sizes.

This is not how shuffle work's. Every single attack on your player has a 1 in 5 chance of missing. Regardless of how many attacks hit you. There is no reduced probability after your first dodge.

This then becomes all RNG. You could potentially dodge 10+ attacks if RNG loves you enough. You also need to consider the fact many people are dodge rolling with shuffle. So during the dodge roll animation you can dodge an unlimited number of attacks and even after you finish your dodge roll have the potential to dodge roll some more with shuffle.

I have not seen many players who are so called "exploiting" shuffle. Sure people dodge a lot but also many classes in this game have very low attacks per second. Which makes dodging them more frustrating for these classes.

Waffennacht · April 2016

Is it possible that several attacks done at the same time could be hitting the same "miss opportunity"

Ill also like to point out in PvP ive yet to see several of my attacks miss in a row. Ive seen miss hit miss but still nothing that would be anywhere near 60 to 80% miss rate.

I doubt anyone could defeat a player with 60% to 80% miss rate. It would take 3 players to equate one in normal combat with this kind of evasion.

I HAVE seen many more players using it, that is something I did not see coming prior to hearing about the "bug"

Unless blur and it stack or something more than just hitting shuffle 4 times.

danno8 · April 2016

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

show previous quotes

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I can go with the RNG for 4 or 5 times in a row, but after that I am not buying it any longer.

Odds of dodging X attacks in a row with 20% dodge chance:

1 = 20% (1 out of 5)
2 = 4% (1 out of 25)
3 = 0.8% (1 out of 125)
4 = 0.16% (1 out of 625)
5 = 0.032% (1 out of 3125)

With RNG, these things certainly can happen. But they should not be common occurrences. Even 3 in a row should happen less than 1% of the time. If we were dealing with small sample sizes, you might just be unlucky. But people don't spend the night in Cyrodiil and get off a handful of attacks. They attack hundreds or thousands of times. Seeing 3 or 4 or 5 get dodged in a row, on a regular basis, should not be happening with such large sample sizes.

This is not how shuffle work's. Every single attack on your player has a 1 in 5 chance of missing. Regardless of how many attacks hit you. There is no reduced probability after your first dodge.

This then becomes all RNG. You could potentially dodge 10+ attacks if RNG loves you enough. You also need to consider the fact many people are dodge rolling with shuffle. So during the dodge roll animation you can dodge an unlimited number of attacks and even after you finish your dodge roll have the potential to dodge roll some more with shuffle.

I have not seen many players who are so called "exploiting" shuffle. Sure people dodge a lot but also many classes in this game have very low attacks per second. Which makes dodging them more frustrating for these classes.

He is talking about probability events. So while each event has a 20% chance for "x" to occur, the probability that "x" will occur 2, 3, 4 or 5 times in a row is not 20%.

So while it is perfectly mathematically possible to dodge 5 times in a row (technically it is mathematically possible to dodge a million times in a row, or a billion etc...), it is not a very likely event. So if you start to see this event occur on a regular basis you start to wonder.

It is obvious when people are dodge rolling, and not just dodging using shuffle.

Brrrofski · April 2016

I play on console and have noticed people dodge a lot.

But could it be that we have battle text that tells us now, so we notice it more?

Komma · April 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

I play on console and have noticed people dodge a lot.

But could it be that we have battle text that tells us now, so we notice it more?

It wasnt always like this. When something new like this happens there is a reason. 20% is still 20%.

Gilliamtherogue · April 2016

I've always been suspicious of the so called shuffle bug. By no means does ZoS's comment alleviate those suspicions as reading any bug report thread shows they show a complete lack of ability to replicate the majority of bugs in this game.
I have seen testing that shows both sides of this debate, both showing evidence that leans towards disproving, as well as supporting.

I simply want to add in additional information that may help ZoS with helping.

1. To ZoS; Do NOT test player reported bugs on YOUR INTERNAL SERVERS. Your servers do not suffer from the same latency, framerate, or other issues. Please use LIVE servers, preferably the server in which the bug was reported from (NA PC, NA xbox, EU PS4, etc...)

2. To players; Keep in mind that players can continue to dodge roll while shuffle is active. With a bit of luck and proper timing, you can easily make it seem like you are dodging more attacks than you should be. Dodge roll frames dodge majority of spells and single target hits for about .75 or 1 second. There is also a set in game that increases the duration of dodge roll frame invulnerability.

3. To everyone; understand that math is a guideline. Not everything we work with on paper translates the same to a real scenario. Also, just because you failed to pay attention to high school math with percentages and probability, doesn't mean that hard mathematical evidence posted by other players is null. A 20% chance to dodge will always be a 20% chance (IF working as intended), so you will always have that same chance per hit. Keep in mind that when players mention the term "in succession" that you must apply proper probability eqautions. For example, the chances to dodge three attacks IN A ROW would be as follows .20 x .20 x .20 which is .8% (less than 1%). Anything above 0 is possible, yet the closer you get to 0 means its less probable.

4. As stated before, when looking at a player who dodge rolls, you must RESET your successive chance calculation, as a dodge roll dodge is different to Major Evasion's dodge. If a player dodges with Evasion once and then dodge rolls two attacks it is not .2 x .2 x .2 but rather .2 as a whole. Any further dodges after the dodge roll begin a completely new set.

5. To everyone; Keep your perimeters the SAME. Testing a large variety of skills and occurrences without keeping them a constant removes credibility! Anyone who passed a science class in school should remember this when experimenting. The more variables you have, the more likely something will conflict and skew results. Keep things simple, and them build upon them! Record data in game or on paper, do not rely on your short term memory or other things.

6. And finally, just because you don't like it doesn't mean its broken. A lot of the heat around this discussion comes from players who lack an understanding of the core concepts of the mechanic or have a difference in opinion of what is "fair'. These opinions as well as suggestions without any idea of how things work have no place amongst bug reports. You only make matters worse when you derail an investigation with biased suggestions or opinions.

Vaoh · April 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

I've always been suspicious of the so called shuffle bug. By no means does ZoS's comment alleviate those suspicions as reading any bug report thread shows they show a complete lack of ability to replicate the majority of bugs in this game.
I have seen testing that shows both sides of this debate, both showing evidence that leans towards disproving, as well as supporting.

I simply want to add in additional information that may help ZoS with helping.

1. To ZoS; Do NOT test player reported bugs on YOUR INTERNAL SERVERS. Your servers do not suffer from the same latency, framerate, or other issues. Please use LIVE servers, preferably the server in which the bug was reported from (NA PC, NA xbox, EU PS4, etc...)

2. To players; Keep in mind that players can continue to dodge roll while shuffle is active. With a bit of luck and proper timing, you can easily make it seem like you are dodging more attacks than you should be. Dodge roll frames dodge majority of spells and single target hits for about .75 or 1 second. There is also a set in game that increases the duration of dodge roll frame invulnerability.

3. To everyone; understand that math is a guideline. Not everything we work with on paper translates the same to a real scenario. Also, just because you failed to pay attention to high school math with percentages and probability, doesn't mean that hard mathematical evidence posted by other players is null. A 20% chance to dodge will always be a 20% chance (IF working as intended), so you will always have that same chance per hit. Keep in mind that when players mention the term "in succession" that you must apply proper probability eqautions. For example, the chances to dodge three attacks IN A ROW would be as follows .20 x .20 x .20 which is .8% (less than 1%). Anything above 0 is possible, yet the closer you get to 0 means its less probable.

4. As stated before, when looking at a player who dodge rolls, you must RESET your successive chance calculation, as a dodge roll dodge is different to Major Evasion's dodge. If a player dodges with Evasion once and then dodge rolls two attacks it is not .2 x .2 x .2 but rather .2 as a whole. Any further dodges after the dodge roll begin a completely new set.

5. To everyone; Keep your perimeters the SAME. Testing a large variety of skills and occurrences without keeping them a constant removes credibility! Anyone who passed a science class in school should remember this when experimenting. The more variables you have, the more likely something will conflict and skew results. Keep things simple, and them build upon them! Record data in game or on paper, do not rely on your short term memory or other things.

6. And finally, just because you don't like it doesn't mean its broken. A lot of the heat around this discussion comes from players who lack an understanding of the core concepts of the mechanic or have a difference in opinion of what is "fair'. These opinions as well as suggestions without any idea of how things work have no place amongst bug reports. You only make matters worse when you derail an investigation with biased suggestions or opinions.

Your last point is very good. There is a portion of the community who definitely see it this way. Those who say the bug isn't real are fighting with people who have this mindset and are starting to make the Shuffle exploit seem like a rumor. Kind of ridiculous that there are even arguments about this. Shuffle can be exploited and it isn't as simple as recasting it.

These threads looking for how to trigger it need to stop. Just contact ZoS if you have real information regarding the exploit. Nothing more to it.

krathos · April 2016

Can someone PM me the steps to reproduce? If I can confirm it actually exists then I can avoid it/remove shuffle from my bar but unless I can see a video or get personal proof of it being bugged then I will remain a skeptic.