Alternatives to nerfing vWGT, vICP and vCOA

Destruent · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

I agree with @Elloa on this subject. There is no need to nerf these dungeons, but I am sick of the DPS race. The focus on DPS is starting to make this game very very boring. It sure would be nice to have events in Dungeons that had more focus on tanking, healing, and sustain.

The problem is the following:
1. Mechanics/Bosses are so hard, they need a real tank and healer
2. People can't complete it and want it to be nerfed
3. ZOS nerfs content
4. Good groups outdps every mechanic
5. people complain, that you don't need a tank/heal

do you see the problem?

Good groups outdps every mechanics, regardless of nerfs, I think.

I'm no game / combat designer so I don't know really... but is it that difficult to set up intelligent mechanics that cannot be bypassed by high DPS ?

Like vCoH or vBC? Those HM-encounters are boring as hell.

1. DPS boss to threshhold
2. wait for addspawn
3. kill boss

Would be better to have a kind of punishing mechanics. Don't do the mechanics? You get overwhelmed. Not tanky enough? Tank get killed. No real healer, only offheals? You won't outheal anything. This way you have to do the mechanics, and you have to bring a healer and a tank.

Blackleopardex · April 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

I agree with @Elloa on this subject. There is no need to nerf these dungeons, but I am sick of the DPS race. The focus on DPS is starting to make this game very very boring. It sure would be nice to have events in Dungeons that had more focus on tanking, healing, and sustain.

It's not a DPS race most of the time(hear me out I agree with you in a way), yes some bosses do have a DPS race mechanic and you can ignore some of the mechanics on some of the bosses with more DPS. You can still do all the dungeons with "decent" DPS, however, more DPS means faster runs(this is what people want with low drop rates) and that automatically put a pressure on all the group members, including the tank and healer.

So yeah you are correct when you say that the game is about DPS. But the reason for this is because the dungeons are to easy where a tank and a healer have less of a job then they used to(at some point a tank was really useful). This means it's not useful to have a full-on tank and a full-on healer, instead you have a squishy tank dealing damage(or no tank at all) and healers tend to run with HOTs & buffs dealing damage most of the time. So ye if you want it to be less about DPS and more about the tanking/healing/movement/mechanics, increasing the difficulty is the answer, I would love that.

mtwiggz · April 2016

I honestly don't see why they would make any of those dungeons less difficult. With the amount of DPS players can pump out at this state none of those dungeons even require a full on tank, if you get a good group you don't even need a tank nor a full on healer. Heal-Tanks with 3 DPS can clear all three of those dungeons without any issue. If you manage to get 4 good DPS with some off heals that's usually plenty enough as well.

Magdalina · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

I agree with @Elloa on this subject. There is no need to nerf these dungeons, but I am sick of the DPS race. The focus on DPS is starting to make this game very very boring. It sure would be nice to have events in Dungeons that had more focus on tanking, healing, and sustain.

The problem is the following:
1. Mechanics/Bosses are so hard, they need a real tank and healer
2. People can't complete it and want it to be nerfed
3. ZOS nerfs content
4. Good groups outdps every mechanic
5. people complain, that you don't need a tank/heal

do you see the problem?

Good groups outdps every mechanics, regardless of nerfs, I think.

I'm no game / combat designer so I don't know really... but is it that difficult to set up intelligent mechanics that cannot be bypassed by high DPS ?

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

I agree with @Elloa on this subject. There is no need to nerf these dungeons, but I am sick of the DPS race. The focus on DPS is starting to make this game very very boring. It sure would be nice to have events in Dungeons that had more focus on tanking, healing, and sustain.

I seem to very distinctly remember needing one heck of a tank in 1.5 Spindle and BC. Heck I remember when you actually wondered about your healer when you were doing vet DC because Kwama lord boss did so much damage and had such strong shields you needed one heck of healer for it. I remember asking my healers if they needed help to heal through last FG boss, and most of them did(and those were good healers. If you could solo heal vet FG last boss, you were, like, godmode healer). But now? ...yeah. I can 2 man those dungeons faster than I used to be able to 4 man it.

As @Destruent said, it's exactly the problem - they nerf any challenging mechanics because people don't want to learn to do them, then people complain everything in the game is SUDDENLY just about dps. ...and now they're nerfing the last dungeons which have something more to them than dps races.

Heck part of the problem with IC dungeons is they are already too easy and allow good players to outdps most mechanics. Then weaker/less experienced players see this and they're like "omg these dungeons are all about dps races, they need nerfed so I can outdps them too"...while in fact what we actually need is to have the content buffed so it stops being a dps race and starts being mechanics. And to start educating people about how to actually play - look at just this thread, so many people posting here saying they're no "l33t players", that they learnt/are learning/are looking forward to learning IC dungeons and they do appreciate the challenge and sense of achievement you get from it...

Clarkieson · April 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

I agree with @Elloa on this subject. There is no need to nerf these dungeons, but I am sick of the DPS race. The focus on DPS is starting to make this game very very boring. It sure would be nice to have events in Dungeons that had more focus on tanking, healing, and sustain.

The problem is the following:
1. Mechanics/Bosses are so hard, they need a real tank and healer
2. People can't complete it and want it to be nerfed
3. ZOS nerfs content
4. Good groups outdps every mechanic
5. people complain, that you don't need a tank/heal

do you see the problem?

Good groups outdps every mechanics, regardless of nerfs, I think.

I'm no game / combat designer so I don't know really... but is it that difficult to set up intelligent mechanics that cannot be bypassed by high DPS ?

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

I agree with @Elloa on this subject. There is no need to nerf these dungeons, but I am sick of the DPS race. The focus on DPS is starting to make this game very very boring. It sure would be nice to have events in Dungeons that had more focus on tanking, healing, and sustain.

I seem to very distinctly remember needing one heck of a tank in 1.5 Spindle and BC. Heck I remember when you actually wondered about your healer when you were doing vet DC because Kwama lord boss did so much damage and had such strong shields you needed one heck of healer for it. I remember asking my healers if they needed help to heal through last FG boss, and most of them did(and those were good healers. If you could solo heal vet FG last boss, you were, like, godmode healer). But now? ...yeah. I can 2 man those dungeons faster than I used to be able to 4 man it.

As @Destruent said, it's exactly the problem - they nerf any challenging mechanics because people don't want to learn to do them, then people complain everything in the game is SUDDENLY just about dps. ...and now they're nerfing the last dungeons which have something more to them than dps races.

Heck part of the problem with IC dungeons is they are already too easy and allow good players to outdps most mechanics. Then weaker/less experienced players see this and they're like "omg these dungeons are all about dps races, they need nerfed so I can outdps them too"...while in fact what we actually need is to have the content buffed so it stops being a dps race and starts being mechanics. And to start educating people about how to actually play - look at just this thread, so many people posting here saying they're no "l33t players", that they learnt/are learning/are looking forward to learning IC dungeons and they do appreciate the challenge and sense of achievement you get from it...

The mechanics are obsolete if the content is nerfed. It would seem that ZOS would rather waste their time developing content and difficulty just to then render all thier work uselss with nerfs for cry babies.

They have lost sight of the long term plan and just want to make a quick buck selling crap in the crown store. They game is not a priority to them, they have many streamers promoting and selling the game for them so they just concentrate on data and demographics.

People who play the game are not seen as players, they are seen as potential revenue for the company. They do not want to scare off people from playing the game with "challenging content" they would rather sell us crowns and make the game easier to attract more potential revenue (gamers).

The veiws of the people who play the game are irrelevant to ZOS, thats why they have these so called media events like this pax thing. Potential revenue (gamers) are there to be told what they want by zos employees who have a directive to just make money. It is clear by looking at this community that no one wants nerfs. Everyone wants a working product with a little glitches as possible. But what do we get? The exact opposite.

ZOS already know the shelf life if this game is running out fast, and this is a desperate bungie-like attempt fo lure as many players the game and inevitably to the crown store to make as much cash as posible before we all get fed up with it and go else where for our gaming.

I wish everyone the best of luck trying to change ZOS'es minds but i feel the accounts at ZOS will always have the last word.

Dubhliam · April 2016

There was a thread opened recently that said one of the "boss" monsters in a story quest was invincible.

While, in fact, all story driven content is so easy most people can complete it with their eyes closed.

I'm not saying that it is the OP's fault for not being able to beat that boss.
It is ZOS's fault.

ZOS fails utterly at educating players about the way game mechanics work, yet they give players a wide variety of choices in their builds, not all of which are effective.
Stacking all your attributes in either stamina or magicka makes you very powerful, but you cannot find that tip anywhere in the game.
Spells and abilities gain power (mostly) from the resource that players use to cast them, but how would they know that?

The "play as you want" advertising campaign backfired horribly.

People join groups with highly ineffective builds like a healer in Heavy Armor, a stamina Nightblade with many attribute points into magicka and so on.

ZOS needs to educate their players.

Or they can remove the "power" from the resources (mag and stam), which would require a complete revamp of game mechanics and content difficulty.

I guess the choice is obvious.

greylox · April 2016

I like the 'newbie' and 'guide' idea. Imo, they should leave them as they are and just introduce an easy mode to learn the mechanics.

Drungly · April 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

ZOS fails utterly at educating players about the way game mechanics work, yet they give players a wide variety of choices in their builds, not all of which are effective.
Stacking all your attributes in either stamina or magicka makes you very powerful, but you cannot find that tip anywhere in the game.
Spells and abilities gain power (mostly) from the resource that players use to cast them, but how would they know that?

Why is it ZOS' task to educate players? When I type in the dungeon name in Google and press search I get a ton of information on that specific dungeon. How much handholding does this game need? I guess for some people it is never enough, but if people do not want to improve their game then it's their own fault for failing to do certain content. No amount of tutorials or tips in game is going to change that. This in my opinion is where the real arrogance lies; not with so called elitist players, but with players who refuse to go that extra mile to get the best out of their character.

Dubhliam · April 2016

Drungly wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

ZOS fails utterly at educating players about the way game mechanics work, yet they give players a wide variety of choices in their builds, not all of which are effective.
Stacking all your attributes in either stamina or magicka makes you very powerful, but you cannot find that tip anywhere in the game.
Spells and abilities gain power (mostly) from the resource that players use to cast them, but how would they know that?

Why is it ZOS' task to educate players? When I type in the dungeon name in Google and press search I get a ton of information on that specific dungeon. How much handholding does this game need? I guess for some people it is never enough, but if people do not want to improve their game then it's their own fault for failing to do certain content. No amount of tutorials or tips in game is going to change that. This in my opinion is where the real arrogance lies; not with so called elitist players, but with players who refuse to go that extra mile to get the best out of their character.

I agree with you, but ZOS does not (and should not) look at it from that perspective.
To them, even those players are customers, and they want to indulge every single customer before they leave the game because they're so frustrated by the "difficult" content.
Other MMOs don't have such problems because other MMOs don't have variable builds.
You choose a class - that class has X skills, you can only equip Y of those skills. That class can only wear Z armor.
Done, easy.
No room for inefficiency.
Whereas ZOS has made it possible for players to be a Dragonknight healer in Heavy Armor with all attributes spread out evenly.

If they wish to retain both the new and the veteran players, they need to educate new players ASAP to reduce the huge gap between "good" and "bad" players.
Nerfing content is not a solution - they will drive away the veteran population.
Leaving things as they are is not a solution - new players have no knowledge and hit a wall they can't pass without help.

Mush55 · April 2016

Was thinking last night, of all the mmos I have played in my many years (DAoC/ Everquest/ Wow/ Warhammer) This is the only one that seems to to not encourage progression through challenge with an increase in dungeon difficulty and more difficult content in general.

Some of those games had me logging on for many years, admittedly I play on console now but after 12 months there seems nothing left to inspire me to play much and with the up coming nerfs and general lack of new 4 man content I don't no how much longer I will continue to play..

Easy content is ok but it dose not provide the long term challenge that I have been accustomed to.

eserras7b16_ESO · April 2016

These dungeons are not that hard if you know the mechanics of the game. Problem is many people play the game for long and still fail to understand how the game works: Supports need to understand they must help DPS - Damage Dealers need to build to hit as hard as possible (not a middle point between survavility and damage) - Tanks must help dps by having control over mobs positioning (aggro too obviously).

There's so much available sets with "cool" descriptions on them that people get confused and fail to understand that they're not doing damage (see Bow users on the main bar) also, tooltips and information is not clear and they fail to understand in wich situation they must use one morph or another. Attribute points, Mundun stones. Problem is that people don't understand they're not doing damage effectively.

Also the gap between a player with a good build and a player with a bad build is immense. Problem is that if you nerf the content to the point were people with bad builds can complete it, then the difficulty for the other half of the game who has understood the mechanics is just ridiculous, because the gap is between someone doing 8k DPS to someone doing 35k DPS.

It's good that the game has challenge involed on building up the characters, but then we also need dungeons for everybody. We already have normal dungeons. People that is not ready shouldn't queue for Veteran Dungeons. If Zenimax wants everybody to be able to complete Veteran dungeons then add a nightmare mode. Or change the name: Veteran should be named "Hardcore" phergaps so it scares more people up, stating clear that those dungeons require high skill?

Adding a DPS meter inside the game would help too, people could share and see each other DPS then they would be able to recognize they're not doing right and they would do something about it. In my case, people around me got their DPS higher the day they instaled FTC to see the DPS they were doing, they realized they didn't do good and did something about it.

But nerfing all the content down is NOT the solution we need.

Try to find a way so people realize how good or bad they're performing their role.
OR
State clear that some content is just not ment for casual playing, so there's no surprises then.

Amateurs/Casuals shouldn't be in looking for Veteran Dungeons unless they expect challenge, wipes and all. The game should state clear: "This content is ment for everybody, this other is not" then some casual players wouldn't even try to go and complete it, or if they do they won't complain since they got warned.

Problem is if you're able to look for group with a random group on a dungeon with is decently hard to do like vICP it's normal they fail, you can't just pug that.

Just don't make all 4man content pugable

eserras7b16_ESO · April 2016

Don't make all 4man content pugable just because LFG tool doesn't work

How about getting those dungeons out of the tool, put them to another tier.

Dubhliam · April 2016

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Don't make all 4man content pugable just because LFG tool doesn't work How about getting those dungeons out of the tool, put them to another tier.

I said this many times, and I'll say it again.

Grouping tool is not to blame.

If we had the absolute best tool for grouping available, you would still get paired with people that have absolutely no knowledge of the game mechanics.

And that is the core problem.
Players are able to beat any and all content without even realizing that they need to interrupt casters, block heavy attacks, avoid red AoEs etc.
THEN comes the character build part... MAN, are some people clueless as to how damage works.

These are all knowledge issues.
Easily teachable knowledge, provided players have incentive to improve.

Clarkieson · April 2016

so after the DB patch note on the PTS, all these nerfs are starting to make sense.

nerf the characters, nerf the content. win, win in ZOS eyes.

now when are they going to realise that if you keep messing with the game people wont have a hope in hells chance of keeping up with it never mind making a build to have a go at it.

the so called casuals who cry nerf cannot do the content because the refuse to take the time and learn. when the goal posts are moved it makes it even harder for the cry babies, so cry babies will cry harder for nerfs until there is no point playing the game anymore.

it is what is commonly known as a "vicious cycle" of which due to ZOS lack of foresight ESO is now being suck into. They want people to "win" the game by nerfing it and then they change everyones builds. these to policies are on a collision course and the victim is the game.

next step is clearly nerfs to VMSA and VMOL. give the cry babies time to shed tears over not getting maelstrom weapons and set gear from the trials and sure enough the same policies will emerge.

Nerf the characters, nerf the content.

so why should anyone try and complete these events right now? well that is the crux of it. it would seem that the minority of people actually enjoy the challenge of learning, but these minorities are ostracised and ignored. i personally take my hat off to the people why struggle through the challenges and get reward of beating it.

(shout out to the hodor guild, who pass on what they learn to people around the world without them and people like them there would be no trailblazers, pathfinders thorugh the content. i personally have based several of my builds around what maschinate and others have achieved)

All this constant change is going to get old real fast, if it means whole new builds, armour, glyphs, tempers, weapons every update, i will find myself choosing between farming thousands of materials for months only for it to be null and voided by another cry baby update, or i will just find something more rewarding to do or even a new game. its not a threat, its a fact.

Yaada · April 2016

TequilaFire wrote: »

Well then just nerf normal and leave vet mode alone and possibly add a harder mode as well.
Same idea.

This - right here! Problem solved. It covers the new to casual players range AND the hardcore to pro player range. Everyone is happy.

Yaada · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

I'm just going to post something I posted awhile ago

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player. Which is understandable but also HIGHLY discouraging for new players to progress in an MMO with a bright future looking to progress. I believe this concept is an extremely healthy idea for Zenimax to look into, yes I know your team is limited but this would be an amazing thing to provide

The Concept
Currently as it stands Normal and Veteran are too far of a gap between each other, Normal Mode is designed for a new player looking to progress his or her build and start to get into raiding and group content, as it is right now Normal Mode is far too easy for every single player, the damage output of enemies is far too weak against the damage output by you, you are easily able to outdamage them and kill them, and you can do it in pretty much any build. This type of design I believe discourages a new player and gives them false hope so in turn they decide "hey guys lets try Veteran out" after jumping into Veteran Mode straight from Normal Mode, the difference is massive, and I mean really massive, new players struggle and it causes a bad benchmark from that sort of play style jump. Normal Mode should be harder, and Veteran Mode should be a little easier in comparison.

Veteran Mode is designed for the players who have been around for awhile, this has been said many times before. However, this becomes a huge problem because of Zenimax's Philosophy to match content to the larger audience, being and always will be the less *hardcore* type of player. I believe this is where the main problem starts, having content from one Party be nerfed for the other Party to complete, this causes many gameplay clashes and also prevents character and build progression for new players who try to pursue it.

Thus because of this I believe we should introduce a new mode called Nightmare Mode to keep the two parties split and to have an even and productive character progression model. Having the difficultly jump from Normal > Veteran > Nightmare should be manageable yet challenging, for all parties and those trying to better themselves at the game.

What Nightmare Mode Is
The basic construction of Nightmare Mode will be a considerable increase of Veteran Mode, there will be no new mechanics, no new boss fights, nothing extra to do, it will simply increase the Damage Output on Enemies and their Maximum Health, Damage Shields, Elemental Resistance, Critical Resistance and Critical Chance. This would challenge players to learn to move around, to block attacks, and to rethink their build as a whole learning how to sustain their damage, how to sustain their stat resource pools and their reaction times. This mode should not have nerfed damage it should not be touched and modified to fit the casual playerbase it should remain as a benchmark and an achievement to complete this mode for all dungeons and trials.

Not only have we seen many changes to Dungeons and Trials we have also seen changes to how Death Penalties work, this is one of the most discouraging thing Zenimax has ever changed in terms of competitive gameplay, removing death penalties promotes such an unhealthy playstyle and unhealthy competition, promoting how it is okay to die and there is no punishment for it, no life lost, just 1,000 repair bill when your gear decides to break.

Nightmare Mode For Dungeons
There isn't much challenge in dungeons at this current time it's mainly going in for a daily and destroying all of the bosses for a unique item set which ends up being deconstructed for the Style Materials. So to make things interesting for Dungeon Nightmare Mode I would suggest adding in a life counter similar to how Trials Works, or a Dungeon Timer which would be a unique way of having players maximizing their damage to try to complete the dungeon in a certain amount of time to be rewarded with a chance of getting a Legendary Item to drop on the Last Boss if you complete it within that time limit.

Nightmare Mode For Trials
Over the time since Craglorn has been out we have seen a lot of changes to Trials from how they orginially were, for example the decreased Life Counter used to be 32, that was exetremly hard to complete content with, especially Sanctum Ophidia, and the challenge was so great it took a few months to be able to beat the Trial, at least for me and the people I had played with at the time and all the other Top Guilds. I would also propose that Nightmare Mode would include a Death Penalty similar to how it used to be, adding 5 minutes to your overall score but maybe reducing your overall score by 500 points per death.

Nightmare Mode For Dragonstar Arena
Dragonstar Arena would have possibly been the most successful and most unique PvE content ESO will have, the idea is great it causes a lot of teamwork and class balancing to get the best results, the one thing I would suggest for Dragonstar Arena Nightmare Mode would be to give a Timer similar to Dungeons, and to decrease the overall lives that you had, possibly setting a benchmark for each round to be completed in a certain amount of time to recieve a special reward at the end of each round that would be a Legendary Item from Footman, Healer or Master Weapon.

Risk and Reward
Much like many games it becomes a problem when one party is able to complete content and get far superior gear being geared out and flying through content, so since Nightmare Mode has a lot of risk to it, it would need healthy rewards and because the content is the same as what a Veteran Mode would be my suggestion would be to make all of the gear within Trials drop Legendary, this would also be unique because we don't see this in ESO, we have never seen Legendary Items drop, only from weekly rewards it is also a great incentive to keep running content to try and get Legendary Materials.

Another idea being suggested is to add in vanity items such as Skins and Mounts to reduce the need to feel Overpowered compare to the players unable to complete, thanks @Aerieth @PBpsy for the idea

Omg this makes total sense.... sorry bro, it wont fly because it makes sense

kadar · April 2016

Agreed. Nerfs are not the answer.

Dubhliam · April 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

I'm just going to post something I posted awhile ago

This thread and idea is for the players that like a challenge, that want difficult content and player separation from what it is now, because I believe the competitive PvE competition is a dying age hard to revive what it once was due to all of the nerfing content to suit the more casual player. Which is understandable but also HIGHLY discouraging for new players to progress in an MMO with a bright future looking to progress. I believe this concept is an extremely healthy idea for Zenimax to look into, yes I know your team is limited but this would be an amazing thing to provide

The Concept
Currently as it stands Normal and Veteran are too far of a gap between each other, Normal Mode is designed for a new player looking to progress his or her build and start to get into raiding and group content, as it is right now Normal Mode is far too easy for every single player, the damage output of enemies is far too weak against the damage output by you, you are easily able to outdamage them and kill them, and you can do it in pretty much any build. This type of design I believe discourages a new player and gives them false hope so in turn they decide "hey guys lets try Veteran out" after jumping into Veteran Mode straight from Normal Mode, the difference is massive, and I mean really massive, new players struggle and it causes a bad benchmark from that sort of play style jump. Normal Mode should be harder, and Veteran Mode should be a little easier in comparison.

Veteran Mode is designed for the players who have been around for awhile, this has been said many times before. However, this becomes a huge problem because of Zenimax's Philosophy to match content to the larger audience, being and always will be the less *hardcore* type of player. I believe this is where the main problem starts, having content from one Party be nerfed for the other Party to complete, this causes many gameplay clashes and also prevents character and build progression for new players who try to pursue it.

Thus because of this I believe we should introduce a new mode called Nightmare Mode to keep the two parties split and to have an even and productive character progression model. Having the difficultly jump from Normal > Veteran > Nightmare should be manageable yet challenging, for all parties and those trying to better themselves at the game.

What Nightmare Mode Is
The basic construction of Nightmare Mode will be a considerable increase of Veteran Mode, there will be no new mechanics, no new boss fights, nothing extra to do, it will simply increase the Damage Output on Enemies and their Maximum Health, Damage Shields, Elemental Resistance, Critical Resistance and Critical Chance. This would challenge players to learn to move around, to block attacks, and to rethink their build as a whole learning how to sustain their damage, how to sustain their stat resource pools and their reaction times. This mode should not have nerfed damage it should not be touched and modified to fit the casual playerbase it should remain as a benchmark and an achievement to complete this mode for all dungeons and trials.

Not only have we seen many changes to Dungeons and Trials we have also seen changes to how Death Penalties work, this is one of the most discouraging thing Zenimax has ever changed in terms of competitive gameplay, removing death penalties promotes such an unhealthy playstyle and unhealthy competition, promoting how it is okay to die and there is no punishment for it, no life lost, just 1,000 repair bill when your gear decides to break.

Nightmare Mode For Dungeons
There isn't much challenge in dungeons at this current time it's mainly going in for a daily and destroying all of the bosses for a unique item set which ends up being deconstructed for the Style Materials. So to make things interesting for Dungeon Nightmare Mode I would suggest adding in a life counter similar to how Trials Works, or a Dungeon Timer which would be a unique way of having players maximizing their damage to try to complete the dungeon in a certain amount of time to be rewarded with a chance of getting a Legendary Item to drop on the Last Boss if you complete it within that time limit.

Nightmare Mode For Trials
Over the time since Craglorn has been out we have seen a lot of changes to Trials from how they orginially were, for example the decreased Life Counter used to be 32, that was exetremly hard to complete content with, especially Sanctum Ophidia, and the challenge was so great it took a few months to be able to beat the Trial, at least for me and the people I had played with at the time and all the other Top Guilds. I would also propose that Nightmare Mode would include a Death Penalty similar to how it used to be, adding 5 minutes to your overall score but maybe reducing your overall score by 500 points per death.

Nightmare Mode For Dragonstar Arena
Dragonstar Arena would have possibly been the most successful and most unique PvE content ESO will have, the idea is great it causes a lot of teamwork and class balancing to get the best results, the one thing I would suggest for Dragonstar Arena Nightmare Mode would be to give a Timer similar to Dungeons, and to decrease the overall lives that you had, possibly setting a benchmark for each round to be completed in a certain amount of time to recieve a special reward at the end of each round that would be a Legendary Item from Footman, Healer or Master Weapon.

Risk and Reward
Much like many games it becomes a problem when one party is able to complete content and get far superior gear being geared out and flying through content, so since Nightmare Mode has a lot of risk to it, it would need healthy rewards and because the content is the same as what a Veteran Mode would be my suggestion would be to make all of the gear within Trials drop Legendary, this would also be unique because we don't see this in ESO, we have never seen Legendary Items drop, only from weekly rewards it is also a great incentive to keep running content to try and get Legendary Materials.

Another idea being suggested is to add in vanity items such as Skins and Mounts to reduce the need to feel Overpowered compare to the players unable to complete, thanks @Aerieth @PBpsy for the idea

I am usually not for adding even more difficulty options, but if people did not have incentive to play Nightmare mode other than Legendary tempers, I'd be all for it.
Otherwise the very same players asking for nerfs will come to the forum and ask Nightmare dungeons to be nerfed also.
Same loot table - only in legendary quality.

Imagine Nightmare mode Banished Cells.
No mode standing in Maw of Infernal's fire.
Imiril, the sisters... and Rilis...
... I got the chills, man!

Not just Banished Cells, many of the veteran dungeons have GREAT mechanics that don't even get noticed because of roflstomp dps and zero mitigation needed.

Dubhliam · April 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQS9g3moHvM

THIS content is getting a nerf.

Shame.

Magdalina · April 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQS9g3moHvM

THIS content is getting a nerf.

Shame.

But that guy was clearly using BiS gear and capped CP(at least he wasn't using addons)! It's a group vet dungeon that cannot be soloed by a naked player with 10 CP! Unacceptable!

>.<

Destruent · April 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQS9g3moHvM

THIS content is getting a nerf.

Shame.

But that guy was cearly using BiS gear and capped CP(at least he wasn't using addons)! It's a group vet dungeon that cannot be soloed by a naked player with 10 CP! Unacceptable!

>.<

Don't forget, the guy is a rude elitist who won't share his tactics/builds or even show a video how he did this.

Dubhliam · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQS9g3moHvM

THIS content is getting a nerf.

Shame.

But that guy was cearly using BiS gear and capped CP(at least he wasn't using addons)! It's a group vet dungeon that cannot be soloed by a naked player with 10 CP! Unacceptable!

>.<

Don't forget, the guy is a rude elitist who won't share his tactics/builds or even show a video how he did this.

Yeah, I guess everyone that bothered learning mechanics and getting good gear today is an elitist.

At least it is easy to become one

Kippesnikke · April 2016

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

No they need to be nerfed a bit, I shouldnt have to grind 500 cp and get full perfect yellow gear in order to be able to play the DLC I payed for!!!

@ZOS_Finn, @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS Please don't just listen to elitists, I already almost have full yellow gear and 300 cp, but can't finish VWGT and VICP and barely able to finish CoA.

This will discourage many players from even trying the DLC and the normal mode of them is completely pointless no reason or reward to play them at all!!

so u want everything to be a walk in the park? maybe u should choose a different hobby instead of gaming.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Kippesnikke wrote: »

so u want everything to be a walk in the park? maybe u should choose a different hobby instead of gaming.

It's OK that you express your wishes and opinions @Kippesnikke , but don't tell people how to choose their games. After all, YOU could go play Dark souls instead of complaining how too easy ESO is / has become for you.

Dubhliam · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Kippesnikke wrote: »

so u want everything to be a walk in the park? maybe u should choose a different hobby instead of gaming.

It's OK that you express your wishes and opinions @Kippesnikke , but don't tell people how to choose their games. After all, YOU could go play Dark souls instead of complaining how too easy ESO is / has become for you.

Another one of those "go play some other game" comments.

Why in the world would ZOS want any part of their community quit playing their game?

The vast majority of the game is easy.
People that don't like challenge have SO MUCH to do.

Yet you want that 5% of hard not easy content catered to your needs.

If you keep this up, the thing you advise other players to do will come true.

And if you by some miracle learn to play in the next few months, you will find yourself alone, because all the experience players have left.

sickboy2808 · April 2016

So its COA V for gold today and im going to run it 1 last time before it gets nerfed. Shame as i loved that dung but now i dont need to worry bout running it again. Im seriously running out of things i like to do in this game but hey i hardly spend much time on the game nowadays anyway. Bye Titan it was fun

Dubhliam · April 2016

sickboy2808 wrote: »

So its COA V for gold today and im going to run it 1 last time before it gets nerfed. Shame as i loved that dung but now i dont need to worry bout running it again. Im seriously running out of things i like to do in this game but hey i hardly spend much time on the game nowadays anyway. Bye Titan it was fun

My feeling exactly.

With each upcoming update it seems I have less and less to look forward to.

There is no excitement in awaiting new DLCs, only disappointment.

sickboy2808 · April 2016

Agreed Dub. TG made me want to quit as i hated the layout of that city and got bored of the zone real quick and dont want to even finish the quest line. Im actually spending what little time i have in Temple District trying to get an Agility ring and i thought i would never go to IC. Thats how bored i am, so hope the players that asked for nerfs enjoy their dung runs. This Tank is out...

Nifty2g · April 2016

don't mind me just posting a burn video

At Release

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qSrkb8n9YY

After First Nerf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8iPl9EmlHY

Just before Orsinium Update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFkWuiJJvU

Orsinium Update

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrY9WPftUNU

Since ZOS nerfed my flesh sculptor burn tactic forcing mechanics I have since moved onto Flesh Abomination

2 Days ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZZypbLFdvg

Too many power creeps due to nerfs, we really need to stop them.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

BlackEar wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Regarding the two IC dungeons, it's not all a L2P issue. Look at me : I've learned the mechanics, I don't do the basic mistakes you're mentioning, I've completed them both, on normal as well as on "gold key" mode, but I don't run them anymore because they're for my taste a little bit too hard to be fun. I personally don't mind not running them and I would agree if they stayed at their current dificulty level, BUT if there are many players like me, that's a quite big part of repeatable endgame content that's basically not used at all for its ultimate purpose : provide ingame playtime for players. That's what ZOS is ultimately selling and needs to sell.

I guess you know those "vet-dungeons" spindleclutch, banished cells and so on. Lots of good players don't run them bc they are too easy to be fun. Where ist that anywhere different from your statement?

I know you say: ZOS is making the decissions and so on. But they also read the forum and will use constructive feedback/reasonable complaints.

Yes, I don't do vet dungeons anymore unless it is with guild mates. they are too easy. At least with guild mates I can have fun.

^^ This.
Most good to excellent players that I know still run those dungeons for various reasons, even though they're boringly easy for them. Helm farming, XP farming for CP, fun with guildies, helping lowbies, rerolling, whatever. Or simply habit : dailies must be done, full stop.
They complain it's boring, but they still run this content. Besides, it's obviously easier to spend 10 minutes running boringly easy content than 2 hours of frustratingly difficult content. Also, there are plenty of ways to make easy runs fun - run naked, solo, duo, 4dps, 4tanks, beat the clock, whatever. Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier.

And last but not least, there are more average/bad players than excellent/good players so it's more important that the former get what they need rather than the latter. Else all this wouldn't even be an issue.

Only for leveling undaunted. My last 3 toons are about to get undaunted 9. After this there is no reason for me to do them again. Running with 4 DPS, you can do this since 1.6 hits live, we now run with 2 DPS, but thats not as much fun as doing a hard dungeon with tank/dps/heal. It's only frustrating bc even then those dungeons are easy.
You said: "Whereas there's no way to make difficult content easier." That's false, you can scale content down without that much impact on your gear. Helmets can be bought at the vendor, Shoulders scale to your level. Setitems from old dungeons are useless and the sets from vICP/vWGT can be obtained by opening the trophy vaults.
There needs o be content where you have to improve and get better. Only one or two dungeons....

All Content will get easier over time, you get more CP, more gear and so on. They will be easy, even if ZOS won't nerf them.

BTW: XP farming in dungeons???? WTF? XP is horrible in there

ONLY if you use vertical progression.