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Restore Bracing - Never Ask for Buffs
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Sk000tch✭✭✭If Wrath will stay than Increase effectiveness of Wrath to 15/30 stacking 10 times from current 10/20.
Can't tell if trolling or not
That'd be like fixing shield QQ by giving them to every class... Or fixing stam sorcs by nerfing their main attack
Edited by Sk000tch on April 28, 2016 8:27AM0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I was able to increase it to 1956 with the new setup I run.
Had zero problem tanking.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Weesacs✭✭✭✭✭How does some lousy stacking weapon and spell damage help me in my role? (TANK)
Explain to me why tanks need damage please.
ENLIGHTEN ME.
You refuse to accept the fact that tanks got a nerf.
Not you ofc, you live in your own PvP immortal templar world, we should all bow to you, reroll a temp and copy your build.
He's trolled quite a few times in this thread - im just gonna ignore him now. Like you said, he wants everyone to re-roll to his build / set-up and use perma-heals to survive in PvP (which, to him is fine but perma-blocking is not?). Ive already proven to him, from a PvP perspective, how its a nerf to tanking, especially with the broken CC in the game, but, as you see quite a lot on forums, they fail to acknowledge the facts.Breton Templar
PS5 - EU - DC0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Permablocking?
Seriously?
Tell me... how am I going to beat vICP without blocking? Every time I raise my shield, the stamina recovery is put on hold for another 2 seconds after I stop blocking. IF and only IF the boss was to attack only every 3 to 4 seconds, I'd have ONE tick of stamina regen.
It's good that you brought up vICP, the hardest of the 4-man dungeons... because it's completely doable without permablocking.
The only thing I ever block while in that dungeon is the Flurry from Overfiend (when it starts, I press RMB - then I let go, magic) & the slow heavy attacks of the flesh atronach boss (you can heavy attack/DPS between those boss attacks).You refuse to accept the fact that tanks got a nerf.
Not you ofc, you live in your own PvP immortal templar world, we should all bow to you, reroll a temp and copy your build.
There is no fact, tanks didn't get a nerf (apart from maybe trials vMoL tanking, where you actually have to hold block & never let go).
Every single 4-man dungeon in this game is completable without permablocking, and will be even easier as a tank after this patch.
I do not want people to reroll any certain build, I want people to let go of the fixation on permablocking & the mindset of "I hold right mouse button, I'm a tank" and experiment with different builds - thus creating a more diverse landscape in both PvE & PvP and enrichening the gameplay experience of everyone.Edited by DDuke on April 28, 2016 10:56AM1 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wow this thread turned stupid really fast. Every time these tanking topics are made they turn into one big whine. No arguments, no numbers, no videos, no screenshots, just plain damn whining.
Yes some things changed and yes we need to see what it means, but really there is no need that every damn 3rd post there is some half-wit calling out "We got nerfed so bad boohoo!". You think you are helping all of us with your nonsense? No, of course not. For those who can't stop whining hit me a pm and I'll buy you a box of *** tissues.
It's not a nerf, it's a change. And as far as I've been testing my gut tells me not much has changed IN THE END. The difference I saw was in how much the stamina fluctuates due to the new passives. More out, but also more in, but the end value seemed about the same. I was able to do what I did before without noticing a big difference, and I'm not running any sturdy.
BUT if you find an change, a negative one in particular then PLEASE be constructive, post your findings and be open to discuss things.
FYI saying nerf 27 times on one page is not a summoning ritual for @ZOS_RichLambert or anything
@Woeler ,
you say:
"[i]And as far as I've been testing my gut tells me not much has changed IN THE END. The difference I saw was in how much the stamina fluctuates due to the new passives. More out, but also more in, but the end value seemed about the same. I was able to do what I did before without noticing a big difference, and I'm not running any sturdy.[/i]"
You play a DK Tank. Right ?
Are there other DK Tanks that can state something about the change based on real PTS Raid practice ?
Are there NB Tanks that did trying out Raids in PTS ? Also vMoL ?When giving your feedback, it’s most helpful to us when you support your ideas with specific details, math, and logic.
"specific details, math, and logic. " and practice facts.
Facts:
What kind of Tank, which PTS Raids, your own characters or Templates, and what differences if any.
Edited by hrothbern on April 28, 2016 10:59AM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Permablocking?
Seriously?
Tell me... how am I going to beat vICP without blocking? Every time I raise my shield, the stamina recovery is put on hold for another 2 seconds after I stop blocking. IF and only IF the boss was to attack only every 3 to 4 seconds, I'd have ONE tick of stamina regen.
It's good that you brought up vICP, the hardest of the 4-man dungeons... because it's completely doable without permablocking.
The only thing I ever block while in that dungeon is the Flurry from Overfiend (when it starts, I press RMB - then I let go, magic) & the slow heavy attacks of the flesh atronach boss (you can heavy attack/DPS between those boss attacks).You refuse to accept the fact that tanks got a nerf.
Not you ofc, you live in your own PvP immortal templar world, we should all bow to you, reroll a temp and copy your build.
There is no fact, tanks didn't get a nerf (apart from maybe trials vMoL tanking, where you actually have to hold block & never let go).
Every single 4-man dungeon in this game is completable without permablocking, and will be even easier as a tank after this patch.
I do not want people to reroll any certain build, I want people to let go of the fixation on permablocking & the mindset of "I hold right mouse button, I'm a tank" and experiment with different builds - thus creating a more diverse landscape in both PvE & PvP and enrichening the gameplay experience of everyone.
Unless you found a post in this thread talking about how it will become impossible to permablock, then stop strawmanning the discussion and derailing it via that strawman.
Of course every thing is able to be completed without permablocking. You are saying the equivalent to "you know guys, you don't have to be breathing non-stop to survive, you can take small breaks."
It is so obvious that everything can and will be completed without permanblocking and you have not struck something insightful by making that point over and over.
A nerf is a nerf coming from a permablocking or non-permablocking perspective.Edited by Personofsecrets on April 28, 2016 11:17AM6 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
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I was able to increase it to 1956 with the new setup I run.
Had zero problem tanking.
and what did you lose?0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »
Permablocking?
Seriously?
Tell me... how am I going to beat vICP without blocking? Every time I raise my shield, the stamina recovery is put on hold for another 2 seconds after I stop blocking. IF and only IF the boss was to attack only every 3 to 4 seconds, I'd have ONE tick of stamina regen.
It's good that you brought up vICP, the hardest of the 4-man dungeons... because it's completely doable without permablocking.
The only thing I ever block while in that dungeon is the Flurry from Overfiend (when it starts, I press RMB - then I let go, magic) & the slow heavy attacks of the flesh atronach boss (you can heavy attack/DPS between those boss attacks).You refuse to accept the fact that tanks got a nerf.
Not you ofc, you live in your own PvP immortal templar world, we should all bow to you, reroll a temp and copy your build.
There is no fact, tanks didn't get a nerf (apart from maybe trials vMoL tanking, where you actually have to hold block & never let go).
Every single 4-man dungeon in this game is completable without permablocking, and will be even easier as a tank after this patch.
I do not want people to reroll any certain build, I want people to let go of the fixation on permablocking & the mindset of "I hold right mouse button, I'm a tank" and experiment with different builds - thus creating a more diverse landscape in both PvE & PvP and enrichening the gameplay experience of everyone.
Unless you found a post in this thread talking about how it will become impossible to permablock, then stop strawmanning the discussion and derailing it via that strawman.
Of course every thing is able to be completed without permablocking. You are saying the equivalent to "you know guys, you don't have to be breathing non-stop to survive, you can take small breaks."
It is so obvious that everything can and will be completed without permanblocking and you have not struck something insightful by making that point over and over.
A nerf is a nerf coming from a permablocking or non-permablocking perspective.
How exactly is it a nerf from non-permablocking perspective, when you get: more mitigation, more sustain, more health, more healing received, more healing done (wrath).
After this patch, one heavy attack is going to restore 20% of my stamina (magicka tank).
So do enlighten me, how does this patch hurt tanks that can stop pressing down the RMB for a moment & regen back up? I have provided plenty of evidence to the contrary, it's your turn.Edited by DDuke on April 28, 2016 11:28AM0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Block cost is being increased along with roll dodge and break free. In addition, block cost is increased by 20% by the removal of bracing.
That increased block cost will have an effect on all blocking whether it be individual blocks or permablocks.
Therefore the nerf effects a non-permablocking characters.
This thread isn't about permablocking as much as you want to make it about that DDuke. Stop attempting to derail the thread by making it about permablocking. I will not fall for or allow others to fall for your strawman arguments.
Additionally see my post that I already formed in response to you about why the extra health, healing, and damage doesn't necessarily cancel the effect out. Again, I will run the numbers, but stop strawmanning by pretending that nobody offered you any contrary view.
Finally, nobody has to supply evidence to hold up your strawman arguments. The whole reason you make strawman arguments is because you get to pretend that other people are making them and because they are easy to defeat. Humoring you gives more credit to your strawman arguments that need not be discussed (because they don't have much to do with what we are talking about).7 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Personofsecrets wrote: »Block cost is being increased along with roll dodge and break free. In addition, block cost is increased by 20% by the removal of bracing.
That increased block cost will have an effect on all blocking whether it be individual blocks or permablocks.
Therefore the nerf effects a non-permablocking characters.
This thread isn't about permablocking as much as you want to make it about that DDuke. Stop attempting to derail the thread by making it about permablocking. I will not fall for or allow others to fall for your strawman arguments.
Additionally see my post that I already formed in response to you about why the extra health, healing, and damage doesn't necessarily cancel the effect out. Again, I will run the numbers, but stop strawmanning by pretending that nobody offered you any contrary view.
Finally, nobody has to supply evidence to hold up your strawman arguments. The whole reason you make strawman arguments is because you get to pretend that other people are making them and because they are easy to defeat. Humoring you gives more credit to your strawman arguments that need not be discussed (because they don't have much to do with what we are talking about).
Repeating the word "strawman" doesn't help your arguments. I'm trying to be the voice of reason here & telling why tanking isn't nerfed, but buffed instead.
When you block only 2-3 attacks every 10-15 seconds, it doesn't matter how much they increase block cost by. That is what I mean by not permablocking, it's probably a foreign playstyle for you so I understand if you don't know what it means.
To provide you with an example:
Boss A has an attack that stuns you. This attack happens only every 15 seconds. You block for a moment every 15 seconds. You lose 1-2k stamina. Your base stamina regen of 800 fills you up with 6000 stamina until the next time you need to block. This is without even counting the Constitution passive.
Even if you needed to block every 5 seconds, your stamina regen & Constitution passive would be enough to deal with the hit to stamina.
^
Good example of this would be the flesh atronach boss in vICP with slow attacks that you'll want to block.
That is boss fights.
How about adds? Well, same applies here: you block heavy attacks & things that can kill you, taking maybe 4-5 hits for one second & then you restore stamina in the meanwhile.
If you cant run out of stamina, you cant be nerfed by block costing 20% more. If you run out of stamina, you're either in vMoL or trying to permablock.
TL:DR: how severely this affects you depends entirely on how much you hold down the block button. Good news, there is a solution: hold down block button less, you don't need to block everything with 50% mitigation. For the majority of time you should spend not blocking, tanking got buffed.Edited by DDuke on April 28, 2016 12:20PM0 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Even if you needed to block every 5 seconds, your stamina regen & Constitution passive would be enough to deal with the hit to stamina.
^
Good example of this would be the flesh atronach boss in vICP with slow attacks that you'll want to block.
That is boss fights.
Trying to follow every comment posted here and I see you saying ''tanking buffed'' all the time but this words I quoted says you don't tank trials . Most simple example , Mantikora . His light attack will kill you if you don't block . If you don't roll dodge the heavy attack you will die due to Bleeding on you . You MUST block all of its attacks . I am throwing light attacks between its attacks . Also blocking all of his attacks as well . This is called perma-blocking . Blocking all the damage . Not holding RMB all the time . Saying ''even if you needed to block every 5 seconds'' proves you didn't tank Mantikora . This is why I gave my example on it . You don't have even 2 seconds for getting a stamina regen tick . It just keeps attacking all the time . There is little to no time to do a heavy attack . I didn't even try it because even the light attacks kill you . People here are trying to make tanking viable to new players . I am not saying ''buff tanks to sky-high'' . I actually support no stamina regen while blocking nerf . Because it was so easy back then . Now it is a bit of challenge . But throwing challenge at new players is not good at all . When I am on one of my alts , entering a dungeon with randoms , tank is always out of stamina . Even with shards and repentance , he just can't keep up . This happened to me several times . Even in my v16 characters , tanks who just hit v16 can't do anything due to lack of stamina . The thing is , you just can't expect them to play like a experienced tank either . It should be hard of course , but it should be doable . Only reason we are completing the dungeon is our DPS is high and we are carrying the tank . Imagine a group of new players . How do you expect them to complete vCoA for example ? You are completely right when you say ''we can adapt ourselves to the changes and continue'' . We absolutely can as experienced tanks but even us need some adaptation and experiments to get back on the trail . How new players supposed to even start while we need adaptation ? These are the little things that matter . Now that I think I made you think a bit wider , do you really think taking away a tanks most precious thing is good ? Believe me or not , I don't give a single **** about nerfs tanks are getting because I will somehow overcome them and will continue tanking . But expecting this from a new player is wrong on all levels . Hope I made my ( and also everyone elses in this thread ) point more clear .
Sorry for wall of text .8 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dduke; I thank you for talking about dungeon encounters, but you really underestimate attack speeds.
Go try to not block a few of Serpents Image attacks and you will find that players do indeed need to block many attacks in a quick duration.
I may grant that not all encounters are like that, but even the boss encounter you mention is sort of like that. The optimal way to tank enemies is generally to stay still facing enemies away from teammates. Doing this on the flesh atronarch causes poision aoe from hoarvers to add up, but luckily constant blocking prevents poison overdose from being lethal and allows the tank to keep the boss, for the most part, in the efficient orientation. Im not sure if you could have picked an encounter more contrary to the point that you attempt to make.
I may overestimate the nerf, but you drastically underestimate the nerf and imply in your own post that your logic may not apply to the only content that curently matters, vMOL.
1 -
The problem is so many people keep bringing up how tanking is easier in all the 4 man dungeons. Yet good groups don't even need a tank in those dungeons anyway, so of course tanking is easy in those dungeons. Take a good look at the only content that requires tanks now, vMoL, for example, and it is obvious that ZOS has nerfed tanking, and nerfed the need for tanks in most content. Again the changes are bad for the game pushing for everyone to become damage dealers, without a need for tanks anymore.
For anyone who wears full medium armor how would you like your dodge roll costs to increase by 28%, you can use a full set of well-fitted now to sort of make up for it? Oh and to make up for the change, your spell damage will increase by 200, after you hit the enemy 10 times though.
For those with light armor, the closest comparison from the new patch is getting rid of all extra spell resistance that comes from light armor and decrease all protection on light armor that you need 7 gold nirnhoned pieces to have the same protection you have now. Though a better comparison would be to get rid of light armors reduce magicka costs. For this buff to light armor, your weapon damage will increase by 200, only after you cast 10 spells.5 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »None of the content will be impossible, but it will make it more difficult, which means that fewer people will even want to try learning to tank and there is already a lack of tanks. I'm sorry but saying you haven't tanked trials means that you don't really understand how the nerf will hit. As pointed out by quite a few people, experienced groups don't even need a real tank for most 4 man dungeons. Tanks should not have to rely on templars to be able to do their job in trials. Tanks are being nerfed which does not line up well with the fact that ZOS is nerfing dungeons because people can't complete them.
Why can't heavy armor benefit from the bracing passive of 20% plus sturdy trait if they want it, just like medium armor wearers still benefit from reduced dodge roll cost and can use well-fitted to further decrease the cost of dodge roll.
Heavy armor is already the least worn armor, so why not give it more buffs to increase viability instead of nerfing desired traits?
But if you look at it from a different angle, isn't this also encouraging people that try out tanking to actually figure out viable, good builds that don't rely on taping down the RMB & sitting there like a sponge?
Isn't it encouraging players new to tanking to learn how to manage their resources?
If I was new to this game and I was told that all I have to do is hold right mouse button & taunt, I probably wouldn't be that excited about the whole prospect of tanking.
Instead, having to time blocks & use skills to manage resources makes for much more engaging gameplay.
I think that is what everyone wants but when "resource management" becomes the sole differentiation it doesn't add anything to the tanking experience, in fact it detracts from it. Managing and juggling resources isn't something that adds an enjoyable experience. It should be a factor but it needn't be the sole factor beyond aggro management. There are much better things we can use for tank differentiation. For example how much work you put on the healer through the damage you take, and how you benefit your group. Before the block change I used to maim my targets so my group takes less damage, I used to shield them through aoe's so they take less damage, I used to restore their magicka with necrotic orb, I used to increase their damage via armor reduction. I can still do some of that of course but my primary focus is no longer my group it's aggro > resource management.
This change to blocking really took a lot out of what I enjoyed about tanking and only added a system that allows you to fail or meet the mark of successfully holding aggro, but it doesn't often let you exceed that mark in any real capacity. Exceeding that mark is really where I found the most enjoyment. It added something new, for my DK it's resource juggling (which I do find somewhat exciting), but I enjoyed supporting the group so much more than I enjoy resource management. Supporting the group is just so much better than managing resources to meet the aggro management mark.
Edited by Armitas on April 28, 2016 1:06PMRetired.
Nord mDK7 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Wow this thread turned stupid really fast. Every time these tanking topics are made they turn into one big whine. No arguments, no numbers, no videos, no screenshots, just plain damn whining.
Yes some things changed and yes we need to see what it means, but really there is no need that every damn 3rd post there is some half-wit calling out "We got nerfed so bad boohoo!". You think you are helping all of us with your nonsense? No, of course not. For those who can't stop whining hit me a pm and I'll buy you a box of *** tissues.
It's not a nerf, it's a change. And as far as I've been testing my gut tells me not much has changed IN THE END. The difference I saw was in how much the stamina fluctuates due to the new passives. More out, but also more in, but the end value seemed about the same. I was able to do what I did before without noticing a big difference, and I'm not running any sturdy.
BUT if you find an change, a negative one in particular then PLEASE be constructive, post your findings and be open to discuss things.
FYI saying nerf 27 times on one page is not a summoning ritual for @ZOS_RichLambert or anything
Current score based on suggested evaluation measure.
Arguments: 0
Numbers: Technically 2
Videos: 0
Screenshots: 0
Gut Feelings: 1
Whining: DebatableEdited by Armitas on April 28, 2016 1:27PMRetired.
Nord mDK8 -
Rhazmuz✭✭✭Wheter or not tanking is nerfed, I feel it more disheartening that so many people say that tanks are not needed in many of the vet dunegons, and seem like more of a specialist role for very specific encounters (vMOL, manticora or axes).
What is the lure, when for 90% of the end game PvE content you might as well go with medium gear and dps, and then maybe have sword and board on second bar if something actually needs a little bit of dedicated tanking.
Changes to hevay armor/tanking feels insignificant if the role as whole is generally not needed/usefull.Rhazmuz - Nord DK tank
PS4 - EU3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Personofsecrets @Liofa
You both bring up trials as an example of where tanking is probably going to be more difficult as a result of these changes.
I don't disagree.
However, there's much more to tanking than Trials. If everywhere else in the game tanks become stronger, how is that a nerf?
If you make these threads, say "trials tanking" instead, rather than using hyperboles like "tanks got nerfed".
I know for certain that any tank that doesn't have to hold block 24/7 got buffed with this patch. This means all content apart from vMoL & possibly the new updated SO.
Yes, even vCoA & vICP which were mentioned.
@Personofsecrets you cannot block the poison damage from hoarvers, holding block there is useless. The key here is moving out of the circles & killing the hoarvers before they fill the whole area with them.
You do not need to hold block against the hoarver light attacks, so the only times you need to block in that fight are the slow boss attacks which have a long wind up period allowing you to time your blocks accordingly.
I usually get around 2-3 Puncturing Sweeps off at the boss & hoarvers before I have to block again, helping my group (and myself) much more than just standing there holding block (not a very engaging experience).
@Liofa you mentioned vCoA - the only time you ever need to block in this dungeon is the 2nd boss AoE attack and some attacks from the last boss (which come at a very slow interval). Everything else you can mitigate with armor & outheal using skills like Sap Essence, Inhale or Puncturing Sweep, or simply by having a good healer.
Again, I do agree that in trials this change to Bracing can be seen as a nerf. It is not a nerf to tanking in general however, not by a long shot.0 -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Wow this thread turned stupid really fast. Every time these tanking topics are made they turn into one big whine. No arguments, no numbers, no videos, no screenshots, just plain damn whining.
Yes some things changed and yes we need to see what it means, but really there is no need that every damn 3rd post there is some half-wit calling out "We got nerfed so bad boohoo!". You think you are helping all of us with your nonsense? No, of course not. For those who can't stop whining hit me a pm and I'll buy you a box of *** tissues.
It's not a nerf, it's a change. And as far as I've been testing my gut tells me not much has changed IN THE END. The difference I saw was in how much the stamina fluctuates due to the new passives. More out, but also more in, but the end value seemed about the same. I was able to do what I did before without noticing a big difference, and I'm not running any sturdy.
BUT if you find an change, a negative one in particular then PLEASE be constructive, post your findings and be open to discuss things.
FYI saying nerf 27 times on one page is not a summoning ritual for @ZOS_RichLambert or anything
Current score based on suggested evaluation measure.
Arguments: 0
Numbers: Technically 2
Videos: 0
Screenshots: 0
Gut Feelings: 1
Whining: Debatable
Well...
I think you should add the weight of the "gut feeling" factor based on known performance.
I guess, @Armitas , we can agree that the Leaderboard of Trials are a satisfactory measure to do that.
So if you care to take a glance on the Leaderboards, I'll guess you understand that the opinion of the Tanks high in the Leaderboard have "some" weight for me.
Here the Leaderboard of the most difficult live Trial vMoL:
I hope a couple of the other Tanks, high up in the Leaderboards, can give practice feedback as well from PTS during the PTS period.
If you take a look at the ESO Leaderboards, you will see that Woeler is without exception either in the Nr 1 or the Nr 2 team and Nr 3 in vMoL.
Link: http://www.esoleaderboards.com/index.php?choice=trial&trial=helra
Here the most difficult live Trial vMoL:
Edited by hrothbern on April 28, 2016 1:53PM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs. Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place".PC-EU0 -
Personofsecrets✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dduke, okay, I must be given a special immunity that you dont get when I stay in hoarver poison to avoid moving the boss.0 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .3 -
zerosingularity✭✭✭✭It is worth noting that 200 weapon and spell damage amounts to virtually no damage increase in a tank setup when decent weapon/spellpower is around 4k/3k and tanks are usually faaaaaaaar below those numbers. Therefore this passive is useless to a tank.
Always remember that just because you can adapt, doesn't mean new tanks can. If you do not take this into account, then you really should.
And for the record, I barely block in vWGT when tanking, but in other places, you HAVE to hold block near constantly, not only is the damage insane without it (even at hardcap resists) but it prevents alot of CCs that can cause death when at the wrong time.NA-PC
Kaineth - Stamina Nightblade (Weakest Player Ever!)
Elena Stormwood - Magicka Sorcerer (vMA no Death 12/21/15 Score 401148)
Sheila Feyrondas - Magicka Dragonknight Tank (Frost staves are gonna be fun!)
*Disclaimer* I fail at emotional communication, so assume what I say is NOT meant to be offensive.3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .
Yes, I know.
And what do you have to do in order to solo them? That's right, you need to tank things.
More weapon & spell damage means you are going to deal more damage and heal more, so they're certainly doing something (unless you're one of those tanks that just hold block & stand there taunting boss, in which case please dont ever grp with me).
Also, trial tanks are going to adapt & make things work even after this patch.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Bracing wont hurt trials tanking, since it's clearly a nerf there when you have to hold block.
Having new players learn resource management before they get to the trials is only a good thing.
For 4-man content & PvP (yes, these small aspects of the game...) tanking got buffed. Get over it.1 -
Weesacs✭✭✭✭✭... but in other places, you HAVE to hold block near constantly, not only is the damage insane without it (even at hardcap resists) but it prevents alot of CCs that can cause death when at the wrong time.
Agreed ... and one of those other places being Cyrodill.Edited by Weesacs on April 28, 2016 2:39PMBreton Templar
PS5 - EU - DC0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Well...
I think you should add the weight of the "gut feeling" factor based on known performance.
I guess, @Armitas , we can agree that the Leaderboard of Trials are a satisfactory measure to do that.
So if you care to take a glance on the Leaderboards, I'll guess you understand that the opinion of the Tanks high in the Leaderboard have "some" weight for me.
Lets say that he is the number 1 tank in the game. That would be a professional appeal to his ability, not his gut feelings. He could comment on the current situation and it would have weight due to his accolades which to some degree reference his ability and knowledge of the actual game. But I have no reason to believe he has a professional or psychic gut that can predict the new condition of the game. It's not that guts can't be given weight, it's that guts are never heavy because they are not an accurate or reliable source of information.
I agree with the persons call for hard reference etc, I just reject the hypocrisy of the comment and the way it was stated. I want to see this debate play out fairly, because I do believe my stance is capable of being wrong which makes this conflict valuable to me.Edited by Armitas on April 28, 2016 2:48PMRetired.
Nord mDK0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
All of 'boosts' means completely nothing for classical dk tanks don't forget this. Most of your comments comes from magplar perspective who was always OP in pve just because of sweeps.@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .
Yes, I know.
And what do you have to do in order to solo them? That's right, you need to tank things.
More weapon & spell damage means you are going to deal more damage and heal more, so they're certainly doing something (unless you're one of those tanks that just hold block & stand there taunting boss, in which case please dont ever grp with me).
Also, trial tanks are going to adapt & make things work even after this patch.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Bracing wont hurt trials tanking, since it's clearly a nerf there when you have to hold block.
Having new players learn resource management before they get to the trials is only a good thing.
For 4-man content & PvP (yes, these small aspects of the game...) tanking got buffed. Get over it.
Tank DK cannot constantly healout while damaging, you can spam deep breath on adds, but it will not help you on boss.
Basic idea of your posts is "i do support stupid stack damage meta", problem is: not everyone supports it, i know only two people who does want this as only one available ways to play: it's you, and @Wrobel0 -
@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .
Yes, I know.
And what do you have to do in order to solo them? That's right, you need to tank things.
More weapon & spell damage means you are going to deal more damage and heal more, so they're certainly doing something (unless you're one of those tanks that just hold block & stand there taunting boss, in which case please dont ever grp with me).
Also, trial tanks are going to adapt & make things work even after this patch.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Bracing wont hurt trials tanking, since it's clearly a nerf there when you have to hold block.
Having new players learn resource management before they get to the trials is only a good thing.
For 4-man content & PvP (yes, these small aspects of the game...) tanking got buffed. Get over it.
You seem to be confusing an aspect of the game. Just because someone wears heavy armor, does not mean that they are a tank or tanking. What got buffed was the dps of heavy armor wearers, not tanks. Though mitigation and health increased when wearing heavy armor, but the damage dealt and strength of enemies decreased in the last 4 man dungeons that anyone considered even slightly difficult. So now by following that logic, one person wears heavy armor and deals slightly less damage, and because everything hits like a wet noodle no blocking is even necessary except for an occasional heavy attack from a boss. Is that really where the game should be going? How will that be fun going into the future, or encourage people to build successful tanks for trials. Also, how will new people learn to tank successfully for trials if nothing else requires real tanking anymore? As you pointed out, current tanks will adapt, but is tanking so overpowered in vMoL that it should be punished by increasing the cost of blocking? Again, it is really only the trials now that require a tank for the high performing groups. Which leads to the point brought up in this thread and others that more 4 man content is needed which requires the classic roles of 2 damage dealers, a healer, and a tank.Edited by SirSilverMask on April 28, 2016 2:53PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
All of 'boosts' means completely nothing for classical dk tanks don't forget this. Most of your comments comes from magplar perspective who was always OP in pve just because of sweeps.@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .
Yes, I know.
And what do you have to do in order to solo them? That's right, you need to tank things.
More weapon & spell damage means you are going to deal more damage and heal more, so they're certainly doing something (unless you're one of those tanks that just hold block & stand there taunting boss, in which case please dont ever grp with me).
Also, trial tanks are going to adapt & make things work even after this patch.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Bracing wont hurt trials tanking, since it's clearly a nerf there when you have to hold block.
Having new players learn resource management before they get to the trials is only a good thing.
For 4-man content & PvP (yes, these small aspects of the game...) tanking got buffed. Get over it.
Tank DK cannot constantly healout while damaging, you can spam deep breath on adds, but it will not help you on boss.
Basic idea of your posts is "i do support stupid stack damage meta", problem is: not everyone supports it, i know only two people who does want this as only one available ways to play: it's you, and @Wrobel
It's not about stacking damage, it's about stacking mitigation.
You can go in as a medium armour Nightblade & try to tank things with your 5k weapon damage, it just doesn't work.
Tanking is about mitigating damage surviving, not about holding RMB or killing bosses before mechanics.
I'm fairly certain you can make magicka, and especially stamina DK tank work as well with the right skill setup & gear, but I havent theorycrafted much around that.Edited by DDuke on April 28, 2016 2:53PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SirSilverMask wrote: »@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .
Yes, I know.
And what do you have to do in order to solo them? That's right, you need to tank things.
More weapon & spell damage means you are going to deal more damage and heal more, so they're certainly doing something (unless you're one of those tanks that just hold block & stand there taunting boss, in which case please dont ever grp with me).
Also, trial tanks are going to adapt & make things work even after this patch.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Bracing wont hurt trials tanking, since it's clearly a nerf there when you have to hold block.
Having new players learn resource management before they get to the trials is only a good thing.
For 4-man content & PvP (yes, these small aspects of the game...) tanking got buffed. Get over it.
So now by following that logic, one person wears heavy armor and deals slightly less damage, and because everything hits like a wet noodle no blocking is even necessary except for an occasional heavy attack from a boss. Is that really where the game should be going?
Yes.
I prefer using skills and abilities to holding down one mouse button.0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, you can't tank with pure stamblade, but you can reroll into magblade in light S&B with 4k spell damage and tank successfully, which is ridiculous, don't you think? And he will hold 'RMB' almost all the time.Sugaroverdose wrote: »
All of 'boosts' means completely nothing for classical dk tanks don't forget this. Most of your comments comes from magplar perspective who was always OP in pve just because of sweeps.@DDuke
I am giving examples from trials because those are the only places where tanking matters . There are players that can solo vCoA . Can you believe it ? A dungeon that is considered ''one of the hardest'' by majority of players can be done solo . How is that is part of tanking ? After the nerf to the CoA , ICP and WGT , I suppose they won't need a tank either . New players will still have problems with every dungeon but still , once they figure it out , they will realize they don't need a tank . What else in this game is left for tanks other than trials ? That is what matters and ZOS is trying to make it more boring for tanks by nerfing tanks . They could have given us damage reduction while blocking or something like that . What Weapon and Spell damage does for me ? Nothing ! I highly doubt they read any of these so there won't be any change anyways . I will just try to enjoy my extra 200 weapon damage if boss lives long enough to make me stack 10 charges of it .
Yes, I know.
And what do you have to do in order to solo them? That's right, you need to tank things.
More weapon & spell damage means you are going to deal more damage and heal more, so they're certainly doing something (unless you're one of those tanks that just hold block & stand there taunting boss, in which case please dont ever grp with me).
Also, trial tanks are going to adapt & make things work even after this patch.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Bracing wont hurt trials tanking, since it's clearly a nerf there when you have to hold block.
Having new players learn resource management before they get to the trials is only a good thing.
For 4-man content & PvP (yes, these small aspects of the game...) tanking got buffed. Get over it.
Tank DK cannot constantly healout while damaging, you can spam deep breath on adds, but it will not help you on boss.
Basic idea of your posts is "i do support stupid stack damage meta", problem is: not everyone supports it, i know only two people who does want this as only one available ways to play: it's you, and @Wrobel
It's not about stacking damage, it's about stacking mitigation.
You can go in as a medium armour Nightblade & try to tank things with your 5k weapon damage, it just doesn't work.
Tanking is about mitigating damage surviving, not about holding RMB or killing bosses before mechanics.
I'm fairly certain you can make magicka, and especially stamina DK tank work as well with the right skill setup & gear, but I havent theorycrafted much around that.
It's not about 'adapt' it's about 'stack damage until your attacks will not healout you instantly'Edited by Sugaroverdose on April 28, 2016 2:57PM1