Official Feedback Thread for the Rebalance of ICP, WGT, and Veteran CoA

Destruent · April 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

However you look at it, something has got to be done with those two dungeons. I spent an hour and half in WGT last nite and couldn't get it done. I play couple hours a day, read forums, work on rotation, gold gear.....more than casual but not elite play. This not the first time I failed WGT. It's been many many times. It's not fun. In fact it's quite discouraging from wanting to run that dungeon.

Did you communicate with your teammates and support each other?

Brangwen · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

I would be fine with a hard mode/nub mare mode, whatever.

But it is honest to god tiresome listening to those who can rage all over those who can't for ruining their thing. As if WGT and ICP were only meant for "X" percentage of the player base.

And, as if you didn't have "your" toys for coming up on six months.

Give me a break, you don't like the changes, post your feedback, move on to Maw or up scaled Sanctum or don't go play another game for awhile till new dungeons are released but lay off, ZOS panders to the elite here more then they should
IMO.

Not everyone have time or opportunity to get 11 other players whenever they want to play. Especially if you play on a bit off-hours. Trials are separate from dungeons.

Kwivur · April 2016

SublimeSparo wrote: »

deathbyk1te wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuOGAWx2e0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oDMYTLLMIk

The fact it can be 3-manned now is disappointing.

Now...? can 2 man upto inhibitor and 3 man from there to the end on live.
Sounds like it's probably soloable now lol

Seeing this really hurts. I hope this doesn't go live.

x5ofspadez · April 2016

I havent gotten a chance to test this part yet, But vWGT has been on farm for months now for my guild, and were by no means elite. And were on Xbox. So theres that too. Dont understand why this has happened.

Too many people crying?

Dubhliam · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

I would be fine with a hard mode/nub mare mode, whatever.

But it is honest to god tiresome listening to those who can rage all over those who can't for ruining their thing. As if WGT and ICP were only meant for "X" percentage of the player base.

And, as if you didn't have "your" toys for coming up on six months.

Give me a break, you don't like the changes, post your feedback, move on to Maw or up scaled Sanctum or don't go play another game for awhile till new dungeons are released but lay off, ZOS panders to the elite here more then they should
IMO.

Why should I, or anyone else move on to another game?

deathbyk1te · April 2016

I would like to think I'm not an elitist player. Maybe above average at best but I think I'm about average. I don't sit there and min/max every patch because if I did, I'd be running a Magica NB instead. I don't though. I like my stamblade and she's the only toon I have at max level. So last night when I went in with my 2 friends to see just how bad the nerfs were, it left us feeling disappointed and sad. We struggled through that dungeon when it first came out. We actually though we'd never be able to complete it, but we did. We learned mechanics, improved skill roatations, etc. We can run it now with almost no problems (still working on that no death run), but even we think this is too much. People here are saying, "Oh its been 2/3 manable for awhile now." Well good for you for being that good because not everyone is and maybe something harder does need to be added for the people that turn the harder stuff into 2/3-man or even soloable dungeons. If the dungeons were going to get nerfed this bad then at least scale vDSA instead of SO. Give the 4-man groups SOMETHING since no new dungeons are coming with this DLC.

Telling people to go into Trials isn't the answer either. Getting 11 other people to go in and learn mechanics, change builds, and improve for those dungeons is not easy. Its hard enough to tell people to do that in a 4-man group, its worse in a 12-man. Then people call you an elitist and what not. You have to wonder why some people refuse to play with others not in their guild or friends.

acw37162 · April 2016

Brangwen wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

I would be fine with a hard mode/nub mare mode, whatever.

But it is honest to god tiresome listening to those who can rage all over those who can't for ruining their thing. As if WGT and ICP were only meant for "X" percentage of the player base.

And, as if you didn't have "your" toys for coming up on six months.

Give me a break, you don't like the changes, post your feedback, move on to Maw or up scaled Sanctum or don't go play another game for awhile till new dungeons are released but lay off, ZOS panders to the elite here more then they should
IMO.

Not everyone have time or opportunity to get 11 other players whenever they want to play. Especially if you play on a bit off-hours. Trials are separate from dungeons.

I don't disagree with you.

I am just not very tolerant of the top 5% of players and 10% percent of forum users putting "the filthy casuals" on blast for running "their" dungeons.

The simple fact is this, the developers spent "X" time and resources to create "Y" content. They have target goals for how many people play and complete that content. After six months of data logs (roughly) they are scaling down the difficulty to be more inclusive.

And if I have leaned anything watching Zeni operate, they don't do much by accident. So the hardcore elite got to farm the crap out of the dungeon for Kena and Lord Warden and Spell Power Cure and etc etc

That's roughly six months of hardish content with COA it's much more.

They gave the Eliete crowd six months of prancing around in new gear and are only scaling it down after releasing new harder content be that a 12 person event this cycle and not four.

So if you have a complaint it shouldn't be about scaling down content your routinely beat and have farmed the heck out of. Your complaint is content release cycles with no new harder four man contents in six months.

Not all the other players play on your level or invest the same amount of time you might. Llcking a majority of your play base out Of content based on difficulty indefinitely, if that is indeed what the data logs show is bad business and six months later is not unreasonable at all, IMO.

I would expect moving forward you will see a staggered content release with scaling down coming later so everyone can enjoy it not just a few.

Here is a simple truth, almost evryone plays games differently and for different reasons. Zeni adjusting to allow more people to enjoy their content is an inclusive and IMO great strategy.

I'm also fine with a Hardcore mode to keep people who want a challenge more involved.

susmitds · April 2016

The changes made it way too easy.

Bofrari · April 2016

I

acw37162 · April 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

I would be fine with a hard mode/nub mare mode, whatever.

But it is honest to god tiresome listening to those who can rage all over those who can't for ruining their thing. As if WGT and ICP were only meant for "X" percentage of the player base.

And, as if you didn't have "your" toys for coming up on six months.

Give me a break, you don't like the changes, post your feedback, move on to Maw or up scaled Sanctum or don't go play another game for awhile till new dungeons are released but lay off, ZOS panders to the elite here more then they should
IMO.

Why should I, or anyone else move on to another game?

The last part of the sentence you half quoted "or don't."

I didn't look back at your history so I will just ask, do you have actual feedback or are you hear driviling about how the crying casuals and not six months of data ZOS data mined is ruining your gaming experience?

Outside of a dozen or so posts of actual feedback the rest is a lot crying about players that cry which is to steal a word from a great movie "ironical".

Dubhliam · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

Brangwen wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

I would be fine with a hard mode/nub mare mode, whatever.

But it is honest to god tiresome listening to those who can rage all over those who can't for ruining their thing. As if WGT and ICP were only meant for "X" percentage of the player base.

And, as if you didn't have "your" toys for coming up on six months.

Give me a break, you don't like the changes, post your feedback, move on to Maw or up scaled Sanctum or don't go play another game for awhile till new dungeons are released but lay off, ZOS panders to the elite here more then they should
IMO.

Not everyone have time or opportunity to get 11 other players whenever they want to play. Especially if you play on a bit off-hours. Trials are separate from dungeons.

I don't disagree with you.

I am just not very tolerant of the top 5% of players and 10% percent of forum users putting "the filthy casuals" on blast for running "their" dungeons.

The simple fact is this, the developers spent "X" time and resources to create "Y" content. They have target goals for how many people play and complete that content. After six months of data logs (roughly) they are scaling down the difficulty to be more inclusive.

And if I have leaned anything watching Zeni operate, they don't do much by accident. So the hardcore elite got to farm the crap out of the dungeon for Kena and Lord Warden and Spell Power Cure and etc etc

That's roughly six months of hardish content with COA it's much more.

They gave the Eliete crowd six months of prancing around in new gear and are only scaling it down after releasing new harder content be that a 12 person event this cycle and not four.

So if you have a complaint it shouldn't be about scaling down content your routinely beat and have farmed the heck out of. Your complaint is content release cycles with no new harder four man contents in six months.

Not all the other players play on your level or invest the same amount of time you might. Llcking a majority of your play base out Of content based on difficulty indefinitely, if that is indeed what the data logs show is bad business and six months later is not unreasonable at all, IMO.

I would expect moving forward you will see a staggered content release with scaling down coming later so everyone can enjoy it not just a few.

Here is a simple truth, almost evryone plays games differently and for different reasons. Zeni adjusting to allow more people to enjoy their content is an inclusive and IMO great strategy.

I'm also fine with a Hardcore mode to keep people who want a challenge more involved.

You keep saying things like 5%, hardcore, elitist, locking content behind difficulty.

If only ZOS would present their statistics, you'd be surprised at how many people beat those dungeons.
I am willing to bet it is more than 50%.
Never mind, that aside, people that have spent some time learning mechanics to beat those dungeons do not deserve the name calling they get from people that don't have (or don't want to spend) time to beat it.
There is NO DPS check mechanics in WGT or ICP apart from the enraging Flesh Atronarchs, that someone calculated needs 12k dps to kill in 40 seconds.

So in the end, it is not the difficulty that keeps players from finishing the dungeons, they are beatable at really low DPS.
People just don't want to invest time.

In the end, we'll get a nerf that will increase the completion of said dungeons from 50% to 65%.
Because you cannot outperform mechanics. A one shot will always be a one shot. Even if the boss is nerfed to the ground.

Destruent · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

That's roughly six months of hardish content with COA it's much more.

You are new to the game, isn't it? vCoA is easy since 1.6. If it isn't for you it's a simple l2p-issue.

Sk000tch · April 2016

Such a frustrating change

Real sense of accomplishing something first clear of both, used to actually require taunts and heals.... now the only challenge is trying to get through the doors after running past everything

Did vmsa get nerfed too?

Magdalina · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

So if you have a complaint it shouldn't be about scaling down content your routinely beat and have farmed the heck out of. Your complaint is content release cycles with no new harder four man contents in six months.

I'd just like to point out it's going to be more like a full year. Last "new harder 4 man content" was with IC which launched...when, on 1st September or so I think? No new 4 man content with Orsinium, no new 4 man content in TG, no new 4 man content with DB...when is the next dlc going to be? DB is supposed to launch in like start of summer, give or take, then at least several months until next dlc, so in very best case(since no one promised us new dungeons with next dlc either) it'll be about a year between 4 man content releases.

Yeah...no.

Also, have you actually tried doing vWGT and vICP lately, or are you just going with the common definition of "everyone said they're hardcore so I'm not even gonna try but just wait for nerfs"? They've already been nerfed so much on live they're in no way "elite" or "hardcore" content. They can be easily done with 10-12k dps, all you need is some mechanics knowledge which you can easily gain from dozens of videos online(or simply by asking on forums where some of those hardcore elite jerks would gladly answer any question you have and do their best to help you).

OrphanHelgen · April 2016

Farorin wrote: »

If y'all didn't want it to be nerfed, you should have been more inclusive and open to newer players by teaching them the mechanics, rather than just dropping from group or booting them when group wipes once or twice.

I say it is a fault of the elitists in the game why things like this get nerfed.

i agree on this one. The gap between a perfect end game 4 man groups, and 4 pugs first timers, are really big.
And yes, people take experience and burn through dungeons, I do it myself. Thats why I also support these nerfs. Other with best gear, 500 cp, 200 times dungeon with perfect group say its too easy? Selfish kids if you ask me.

The Uninvited · April 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

This says nothing. Some people run them until they have the gear they want and go back to pvp, some people don't run them anymore since the previous nerf, some people only farmed for the helmet and don't run them anymore because they got it (or bought the helmet from the Cyrodill vendor).

Mush55 · April 2016

How as ICP turned out now ? just started to seriously run this (due to time family ect) and have been able to clear it fairly easily thus far with help from my guild.

Have they killed all the challenge and made it mundane ?

May be one solution is to actually drop sets with traits people will want or give a choice of which trait on the item you want.

Kas · April 2016

imho the problem with those two isn't the difficulty itself. it's the way the mechanics work: the require communication and decision making as a team. just take the 3rd boss wgt: after several nerfs he is really easy to an experienced group. if the tank cannot full switch to DD it's significantly more difficult, though. However, if you have no communication (other than chat) to take your turns and react to whoever is closing portals, you better have 35k dps on three people and brun him down without actually doing the mechanics.

the mechanics are great fun - for those with voice communication or that know each other inside out. for a pug with only chat, both IC dungeons are just very *** by design. if you want to compensate for this through easier mobs, the dungeons will be very boring for players WITH communication and standard tactics will degrade to "*** mechanics, let's burn the boss down within 10sec and see if healer or tank can get higher dps numbers (hi eldenroot, wayrest, etc)"

Magdalina · April 2016

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Farorin wrote: »

If y'all didn't want it to be nerfed, you should have been more inclusive and open to newer players by teaching them the mechanics, rather than just dropping from group or booting them when group wipes once or twice.

I say it is a fault of the elitists in the game why things like this get nerfed.

i agree on this one. The gap between a perfect end game 4 man groups, and 4 pugs first timers, are really big.
And yes, people take experience and burn through dungeons, I do it myself. Thats why I also support these nerfs. Other with best gear, 500 cp, 200 times dungeon with perfect group say its too easy? Selfish kids if you ask me.

Yes, how awfully selfish of someone to ask to have just about 0.001% of the game content cater to their playstyle. That's purely atrocious! I mean those poor pugs only have 18(+starter ones) whole zones, 18 normal and 7 vet dungeons going for them, how DARE someone demand that the other 2-3 dungeons actually require some sort of coordination or even, gods forbid, mechanics knowledge, right?

Kas wrote: »

imho the problem with those two isn't the difficulty itself. it's the way the mechanics work: the require communication and decision making as a team. just take the 3rd boss wgt: after several nerfs he is really easy to an experienced group. if the tank cannot full switch to DD it's significantly more difficult, though. However, if you have no communication (other than chat) to take your turns and react to whoever is closing portals, you better have 35k dps on three people and brun him down without actually doing the mechanics.

This fight has already been nerfed. You no longer need to close the pinion outside of blue stage pretty much, so if your tank cannot go full dps, just let the tank close the pinion at the start and hold her until blue phase; then have someone close the pinion to get her off tank, and have tank close it as soon as it opens again(after which he should be fine holding her until next blue stage). There still is an offchance tank'll get the portals during the short period of time she'll be off him but it's pretty unlikely really.
You're right that it's all about mechanics...and it's quite amazing how people can still have issues with them with all the information out there tbh. What's wrong with having SOME fights with mechanics? Why does every single dungeon have to be "stack and burn" and gods forbid there might actually be some thought process or need for communication involved?

Destruent · April 2016

The funniest thing is, as long as people have to do the mechanics, they complain it's too hard and not pugable. Zenimax nerfs the content and the same people cry that groups can actually outdps every mechanic and noone needs to do mechanics.

LadyNalcarya · April 2016

This is terrible.
Now tanks and healers are only needed for 4 trials.
@Zos, please revert the changes. This is basically a spit to the face to anyone who is not an instant gratification gamer.

rosy_ariete · April 2016

•Which dungeon(s) did you play through? Was it Normal or Veteran mode?

Yesterday me and my guildmates run through veteran Imperial City Prison (EU megaserver, so with templates)

•How did the dungeon feel compared to how it is currently on the Live megaservers?

Less mobs, less bosses HP... feels quite easy to beat (on bad templates and without our CP's we did pretty well even if the magicka cost of skill is higher compared to the live!). We didn't manage to reach the end of the dungeon 'cause PTS server kicked us all (big MEH)

•Do you have any other general feedback?

Yes, we have. Pls get rid once for all ot the traits like "training", "well-fitted" and such for the end game sets! Yesterday we dropped scathing mage with those traits (and was, strangely, "bind on equip") and it's soooooo not good!
We are soooo not happy about these traits and we are really tired of seeing that you don't listen to us (there are several posts through the forum asking you to leave those apart).

Destruent · April 2016

rosy_ariete wrote: »

•Which dungeon(s) did you play through? Was it Normal or Veteran mode?

Yesterday me and my guildmates run through veteran Imperial City Prison (EU megaserver, so with templates)

•How did the dungeon feel compared to how it is currently on the Live megaservers?

Less mobs, less bosses HP... feels quite easy to beat (on bad templates and without our CP's we did pretty well even if the magicka cost of skill is higher compared to the live!). We didn't manage to reach the end of the dungeon 'cause PTS server kicked us all (big MEH)

•Do you have any other general feedback?

Yes, we have. Pls get rid once for all ot the traits like "training", "well-fitted" and such for the end game sets! Yesterday we dropped scathing mage with those traits (and was, strangely, "bind on equip") and it's soooooo not good!
We are soooo not happy about these traits and we are really tired of seeing that you don't listen to us (there are several posts through the forum asking you to leave those apart).

Were all setitems bind on equip or only this one? haven't read something like this in the patchnotes.

profundidob16_ESO · April 2016

kylewwefan wrote: »

However you look at it, something has got to be done with those two dungeons. I spent an hour and half in WGT last nite and couldn't get it done. I play couple hours a day, read forums, work on rotation, gold gear.....more than casual but not elite play. This not the first time I failed WGT. It's been many many times. It's not fun. In fact it's quite discouraging from wanting to run that dungeon.

I feel for both sides. As a player since beta in this game, with normal MOL on farm within the first week of release and steady progresson on vMOL I feel pretty much just like all the people that are being called out for being "elitists" in this thread, even when they are not and their arguments make perfect sense.

BUT after running random dungeons through the group finder for the past 2 weeks must revise my opinion: vMOL is NOT the hardest content. RANDOM GROUPS ARE ! My healing resources and potential has never been stretched as much or as far as when some random party of leroy's jumps in the dungeon consisting nothing other than 3 random leroy persons, completely unaware of the existence of classic healing-tank-dps roles or other typical mmo mechanics.

So I stand there and witness nothing other than a healer's pure nightmare torture test with 3 persons running in totally different directions away from eachother in big pack of normal adds, doing as good as no dps at all (as healer I could do more being naked with my bare fists...) and completely ignoring all red on the floor with no taunts and zero mitigation on their character because everytime a normal add hits them more than half their health bar is gone forcing me to use BOL heals way to often until I eventually run out of resources. So we wipe on normal thrash regurlary but each time we do, 1 or 2 adds have died along with it

And so with between 5-10 minutes on each trash pack (that feels like an eternity btw) we eventually reach the end boss of spindleclutch after many many wipes (around 50 soul gems gone from my stack alone) and when they realize the last pack at the end boss is too much they just decide to give up and leave group. So after they all left I just switch to second bar and finish the dungeon solo asking myself why I even joined this random group experience in the first place...

Random group finder dungeons is for me the first time in the game I experience content so hard that often I didn't have time to get 1 heavy attack in between my healing casts without seeing someone die because of it. I should record this stuff, it's like health bars on steriods jumping down and up nonstop as they grow more confident with each pull and their invincibility tanking all mobs in double red circles and me spamming heals like a madman

too keep perspective, right after coming out of such a whole-evening-in-1-dungeon experience I get asked by a few guildies if I want to run a random with my new lowbie alt (which is also a healer btw) and within 10 minutes we completed it breezing through the exact same content with our lowbies with little to no healing needed so I could dps half the time in fact and meanwhile we're chatting about the weather and the future of ESO and how all content has been dumbed down to a level where it's become too easy...

so ZOS if you nerf down all content to make it accessible for these sort of random groups which is I guess "the masses" that's fine, but please keep a locked higher level of the same dungeon available for the people that want a challenge and please ZOS do LOCK that queue for people that don't have what it takes. Do checks, require heavy achievements, do whatever it takes but make it impossible for the above mentioned people to queue in what is for them obviously an impossible version of the dungeon. Let them have their struggles in the easy version which is often still too hard for them.

ps: I tried on several of these occasions to very politely ask "dear mr tank/dps, would you be interested in a few tips to become a better player ?" 1 person so far said: "yes, sure please do tell me". The other 9 out of 10 I can remember came up with the most insulting or defensive answers right away: "Are you suggesting there's something wrong with my playing ?" To which I can only eventually shut up and suffer the ride or simply leave group...

rosy_ariete · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Were all setitems bind on equip or only this one? haven't read something like this in the patchnotes.

No, they weren't. I dropped one piece of the Combat Physician and a piece of the Sheer Venom: both bound.

Destruent · April 2016

rosy_ariete wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Were all setitems bind on equip or only this one? haven't read something like this in the patchnotes.

No, they weren't. I dropped one piece of the Combat Physician and a piece of the Sheer Venom: both bound.

Damn, i had some hopes, they changed it...but thx for clarfication.

The Uninvited · April 2016

The Uninvited wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

This says nothing. Some people run them until they have the gear they want and go back to pvp, some people don't run them anymore since the previous nerf, some people only farmed for the helmet and don't run them anymore because they got it (or bought the helmet from the Cyrodill vendor).

I missed one: Many players farm the first boss in dungeons for gear. Does that count as a not completed attempt?

Because that would seriously skew the data...

Nifty2g · April 2016

i haven't seen pts but if we can do this on live

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZZypbLFdvg

i can't wait to see the nerfed one

Jaronking · April 2016

The Uninvited wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

He was was quite honest when he said, they have internal data that does not meet there target goals for attempts and completes.

This says nothing. Some people run them until they have the gear they want and go back to pvp, some people don't run them anymore since the previous nerf, some people only farmed for the helmet and don't run them anymore because they got it (or bought the helmet from the Cyrodill vendor).

I missed one: Many players farm the first boss in dungeons for gear. Does that count as a not completed attempt?

Because that would seriously skew the data...

That's the fastest way to open vaults just farm the first boss to get the gear you need.If they see a lot of people just fight the first boss and leave then that explains why a lot of people haven't completed it.

@ZOS_Finn can you answer this for us?

UnBelievaBill · April 2016

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

I truly dislike the nerf. I bet it is because people in grouping tools weren't able to complete it, but it's okay if some 4mans remain unpugable, there should be unpugable content. Don't put them on the random dungeon and mark them as specialy difficult to keep casual players from them, but don't nerf them.

My own personal experience, some of my fastest vwgt runs have been done with the activity finder. It all comes down to being able to find the other masochists (albeit end game stat / geared, WGT veteran masochist) that randomly cue for WGT voluntarily.