Official Feedback Thread for Veteran Rank Removal

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Endenium wrote: »

lol people are already calling them "Champion Ranks".

Here we go.

I blame ZOS. It why you remove something when you say remove

Enodoc · April 2016

Endenium wrote: »

lol people are already calling them "Champion Ranks".
Here we go.

@Endenium They have been called that in-game since the Champion System lauched last year.

Dagonthir · April 2016

"NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

5. The 40 point exp penalty is rough....please change cp catch up to support this

This penalty seems pretty major. They need to raise the CP cap by at least 40 (or rather 42 since it's the next multiple of 3) so that players at the level cap don't miss out on the bonus CP from the VR to CP conversion. I was really surprised to see they weren't doing that - it seems obvious and even necessary.

LizardThixvim · April 2016

im above champion cap by about 50 points, and i dont want my champion rank displayed either...

i dont like the thought of everyone seeing my champion rank, CR was always something personal to me that I checked and progressed personally

Would rather it just say (Character name/ title/ava rank)

Either dont include this change, or allow me to toggle an option to hide my champion rank

BETTER still just display the cap as your rank, if you have 300 cp then you are 300 CR, if you have 3600 CR and the cap is 501 your rank shouldnt be CR 3600 it should be 501 (current cap)

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2918509/#Comment_2918509

Just show 50 with brackets

ng2084b14_ESO · April 2016

So the best items needs 501 champions points to equip?

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

ng2084b14_ESO wrote: »

So the best items needs 501 champions points to equip?

160

Shadesofkin · April 2016

ng2084b14_ESO wrote: »

So the best items needs 501 champions points to equip?

160 not 501

Kattemynte · April 2016

I'm not sure if this was already discussed but if I have a v16 character but say when DB goes live I only have 100 CP, does my equipment (v16) get changed into 100 CP gear or does it remain max level of 160 CP?
I ask because I only made V16 about half a month ago and have been running pledges everyday to get the monster helm and shoulder piece I want (still no luck on getting shoulders of any kind XD). Also, if it gets scaled down it feels I put a lot of time and in game money into crafting my current gear and would have to go through all that again.

VaxtinTheWolf · April 2016

dtsv217_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if this was already discussed but if I have a v16 character but say when DB goes live I only have 100 CP, does my equipment (v16) get changed into 100 CP gear or does it remain max level of 160 CP?
I ask because I only made V16 about half a month ago and have been running pledges everyday to get the monster helm and shoulder piece I want (still no luck on getting shoulders of any kind XD). Also, if it gets scaled down it feels I put a lot of time and in game money into crafting my current gear and would have to go through all that again.

Armour unchanged. You gain the CP needed to fill the gap to continue using current armour if it's personal rank is higher than what you have avialable.

Tevalaur · April 2016

dtsv217_ESO wrote: »

I'm not sure if this was already discussed but if I have a v16 character but say when DB goes live I only have 100 CP, does my equipment (v16) get changed into 100 CP gear or does it remain max level of 160 CP?
I ask because I only made V16 about half a month ago and have been running pledges everyday to get the monster helm and shoulder piece I want (still no luck on getting shoulders of any kind XD). Also, if it gets scaled down it feels I put a lot of time and in game money into crafting my current gear and would have to go through all that again.

Your v16 equipment will become CP 160 equipment, but not to worry as all folks will be given a minimum number of CP to be equivalent to their current Veteran Rank. So your VR16 character will have a minimum of 160 CP when the update goes live even if some are only achieved by being "gifted" by ZOS.

ADarklore · April 2016

Here is a question... back when VR removal was last discussed by ZOS (December I believe) there was mention that new characters would not have access to account CP until they reach level 50... do we know if this is still the plan?

I certainly hope it is, because high amounts of CP will immediately make new characters completely over-leveled for XP, and XP is how we level our skills. So if new characters are immediately reduced to little or NO XP, how will we level skills on a new character?

The ONLY way this would be possible is if new characters had no access to CP and therefore would have the first 50 levels to acquire XP at the normal rate and level their skills before reaching level 50 and accessing account wide CP.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is a question... back when VR removal was last discussed by ZOS (December I believe) there was mention that new characters would not have access to account CP until they reach level 50... do we know if this is still the plan?

I certainly hope it is, because high amounts of CP will immediately make new characters completely over-leveled for XP, and XP is how we level our skills. So if new characters are immediately reduced to little or NO XP, how will we level skills on a new character?

The ONLY way this would be possible is if new characters had no access to CP and therefore would have the first 50 levels to acquire XP at the normal rate and level their skills before reaching level 50 and accessing account wide CP.

It's already confirmed that non 50's will use CPs that's the point of those non CP campaigns now and they confirmed no changes to pre 50's

GaldorP · April 2016

Endenium wrote: »

lol people are already calling them "Champion Ranks".

Here we go.

They are called Champion Ranks in the in-game UI ever since the Champion system has been introduced. Press "C" and hover over the colored bar at the top left corner of your screen that shows progress towards the next Champion Point. I believe ZOS has activetly avoided using the term "Champion Rank" in the 2.4.0 patch notes and DB for PR reasons.

ADarklore · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is a question... back when VR removal was last discussed by ZOS (December I believe) there was mention that new characters would not have access to account CP until they reach level 50... do we know if this is still the plan?

I certainly hope it is, because high amounts of CP will immediately make new characters completely over-leveled for XP, and XP is how we level our skills. So if new characters are immediately reduced to little or NO XP, how will we level skills on a new character?

The ONLY way this would be possible is if new characters had no access to CP and therefore would have the first 50 levels to acquire XP at the normal rate and level their skills before reaching level 50 and accessing account wide CP.

It's already confirmed that non 50's will use CPs that's the point of those non CP campaigns now and they confirmed no changes to pre 50's

I don't understand your reply... I'm not talking PvP... I'm talking LEVELING a NEW character in PvE 1-50 quest zones. If you're leveling a character in quest zones as a new character and you're already over-leveled because of account-bound CP, you aren't going to get ANY XP except from turning in quests. That is my concern... because XP is the sole way we level character skills... so if you have high account-bound CP you would immediately be forced to play only 'battle-leveled' content if you wanted XP from enemy kills. It's not right. That is why they had been talking about not allowing characters under level 50 to access CP, that way these new characters would have to get to level 50 before they could gain access to CP and thus wouldn't face this possibility of being over-leveled right from the Wailing Prison.

To further clarify... when you create a new character all your SKILLS- class skills and weapon skills are level 1... the only way to level those skills is through XP- NOT CP. So if we aren't able to gain XP for a new character in PvE leveling zones, this creates a major problem for players who want to, and enjoy, normal leveling. They would be PENALIZED immediately for having high account-bound CP- thus penalized for playing the game long-term. This is why they should be making CP non-accessible for characters under level 50.

Enodoc · April 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Here is a question... back when VR removal was last discussed by ZOS (December I believe) there was mention that new characters would not have access to account CP until they reach level 50... do we know if this is still the plan?

I certainly hope it is, because high amounts of CP will immediately make new characters completely over-leveled for XP, and XP is how we level our skills. So if new characters are immediately reduced to little or NO XP, how will we level skills on a new character?

The ONLY way this would be possible is if new characters had no access to CP and therefore would have the first 50 levels to acquire XP at the normal rate and level their skills before reaching level 50 and accessing account wide CP.

It's already confirmed that non 50's will use CPs that's the point of those non CP campaigns now and they confirmed no changes to pre 50's

I don't understand your reply... I'm not talking PvP... I'm talking LEVELING a NEW character in PvE 1-50 quest zones. If you're leveling a character in quest zones as a new character and you're already over-leveled because of account-bound CP, you aren't going to get ANY XP except from turning in quests. That is my concern... because XP is the sole way we level character skills... so if you have high account-bound CP you would immediately be forced to play only 'battle-leveled' content if you wanted XP from enemy kills. It's not right. That is why they had been talking about not allowing characters under level 50 to access CP, that way these new characters would have to get to level 50 before they could gain access to CP and thus wouldn't face this possibility of being over-leveled right from the Wailing Prison.

I don't think they ever said that they would be stopping 1-49 characters from accessing account CPs, so I assume they won't be doing that. I also assume that the CP-based XP reduction (which shouldn't exist at all, IMO) only applies to Level 50 characters, since there is already a 5-level XP cutoff during 1-49 levelling.

WillhelmBlack · April 2016

I just want to know the difference in stats between CP10 and CP160 gear. The exact differences for regeneration, power and Crit bonuses. Also the armour values.

Can someone pipe in from ZOS @ZOS_GinaBruno? I can't test as I have no old gear and on a template.

VaxtinTheWolf · April 2016

If you think you'l be too strong during 1-50 leveling, then it can be your choice justr to not use any of them to give yourself a little more challenge. But if you just want to power through, spend all the points and walk over the content.

Dagoth_Rac · April 2016

I am not sure this feedback goes here, but it does seem to be related to Vet Rank Removal. With Vet Rank Removal, skill costs scale differently. Someone with 160CP+ now has significantly higher skill costs (about 16% higher base cost for all skills) on PTS than a VR16 character does on live. Is this a bug? By design? The patch notes said skill costs should be "about the same". But the 16% increase causes base cost to go up by hundreds of points. Probably 1000+ when you get into the really expensive skills.

If it was a bug, please fix it!

If it was by design, why? Some classes/races have excellent resource management, some have lousy resource management. Why not address the particular classes/races that you feel had it too easy with resource management? Instead of an across the board cost increase that actually hurts the weaker resource management classes/races more than anyone else?

dennissomb16_ESO · April 2016

Have some concerns for players with 160+ cp toons when creating an alt. Soon as my Alt hits 50 I will be max level of 160. great for max gear, PvP etc. but questing in beginning Vet zones is taking a serious hit to xp/cp earned. I am going to be questing and fighting mobs well below my champ level meaning I am earning only 30% xp/cp gains as I do these quests.

As it is this is really to much of a hit for earning xp. Would make a lot more sense if the old zones scaled to my level like the new zones do (orsinium as example) so while doing questlines I am not being punished just because I have a main toon

x5ofspadez · April 2016

Is there any way to make some of the boss mobs or even just out in the field mobs a higher Champion rank? So far everything is still faceroll difficulty with only 300 CP on my template. Ill go in today and see how it goes on my current PC toon that has less CP

Delegator · April 2016

I have re-read the description about the removal of veteran ranks a few times, and I have read through this thread. I am still left wondering about several things.

Most important, what is the purpose/goal of removing veteran ranks? Is it to make advancement past level 50 faster? To smooth out the curve represented by post-50 advancement? Something else? It seems like a big change requiring lots of work but for which the motivation is not clear
I have 5 VR16 characters, one VR4 and 2 in the 20ish range. I am about 25 points over the CP cap. Should I simply stop leveling the VR4 character now, because she will immediately get the CP bonus when this update goes live? It would feel kinda dumb to spend time grinding from VR4-VR16 only to have that grind be meaningless
What happens with ability points and skill points post-50 in this system? Will I get an attribute point and a skill point for every 10 CP? Will I lose the attribute and skill points that my characters received for their veteran ranks?
The ranking of monsters according to champion points seems incongruous and artificial. Just my opinion.
Why not simply convert CP to veteran ranks and say that, just as you would get 10 CP per VR, MOBs would be shown as VRn where n = 10x CP

Overall, like I said, I just don't understand the purpose for this change. That makes it hard to evaluate how successful the implementation is. I have a few questions about specific mechanics (such as skill points, ability points, and whether to continue leveling my current VR alts). I look forward to the promised Deep Dive being published, and hope that it will answer those questions.

MissBizz · April 2016

@Delegator You won't get skill or attribute points past level 50. Instead they will give extra out occasionally during the initial levelling process.

You’ll keep all your hard-earned attribute and skill points you received from gaining Veteran Ranks, and new players will instead earn them while leveling up to level 50.
You will receive 2 points every level that ends in a 5

You will receive 3 points every level that ends in a 10

You will continue to get 1 point for levels 2-49

I don't have a quote or anything for the purpose of the change, but I personally think it's to eliminate the grind after level 50. As in, previously for any extra characters you had to level 1-50 and then VR1-VR16. No you just need to level them 1-50 and any time spent on any character post-50 "levels" up ALL characters (since CP is account wide - when you earn a CP on your VR16, you also gain the CP on every other character)

Enodoc · April 2016

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Have some concerns for players with 160+ cp toons when creating an alt. Soon as my Alt hits 50 I will be max level of 160. great for max gear, PvP etc. but questing in beginning Vet zones is taking a serious hit to xp/cp earned. I am going to be questing and fighting mobs well below my champ level meaning I am earning only 30% xp/cp gains as I do these quests.

As it is this is really to much of a hit for earning xp. Would make a lot more sense if the old zones scaled to my level like the new zones do (orsinium as example) so while doing questlines I am not being punished just because I have a main toon

Agreed. But you mean "would make a lot more sense if all the old zones were set to 160 CP and I scaled to their level like in the new zones", because that's what actually happens.

[/pedantry]

Of course, this has the added benefit of putting every enemy mob at 160 CP regardless of the zones you're in, meaning they can do away with that hideous CP number above mobs and just label them all Level 50.

greylox · April 2016

In all honesty I'd rather they went back to the drawing board with this one. No shame in admitting something just ain't right.

Telel · April 2016

Runs wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]We will be awarding a one-time bonus of 2.5 Champion Points per Veteran Rank gained on your highest level character when you first log in when Dark Brotherhood is released!
Each Veteran Rank will grant 2.5 Champion Points, up to a maximum of 40 points at VR16.

My PTS characters did not receive this 40 point bonus

486 on Live

486 on PTS

Telel also had this issue.

592 on live.

Did not receive any extra points on test.

Also all the toons that are not already VR16 on live did NOT receive any extra skill points or stat points on logging in. Instead khajiit had to respec their stats and skills, and they are still unsure if they got the correct number of skill points.

tinythinker · April 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Personally I think that your Champion Points should remain hidden from other players and simply display your max level as 50. There's a lot of scrutiny and judgment with the player base especially as you get deeper in the more challenging content.

Agreed. The same should go for mobs; while it's nice to get an indication of difficulty, having mobs show a Champion number maintains an implied linearity that the removal of VRs was supposed to alleviate; that being, people will feel compelled to go through areas with 10 CP monsters before areas with 60 CP monsters solely because of the numbers, just as they do now with VR1 to VR6. All enemies should be displaying Level 50, and nothing more, to promote the idea that every 50+ activity (Cadwell, Wrothgar, Craglorn, Cyrodiil) is equal, and you don't have to do one (specifically Cadwell, being the VR1-10 areas) before the others (Craglorn, Wrothgar, Cyrodiil, Dungeons, Trials, being the VR11+ areas).

The mobs with higher CP are still more difficult. Why is everyone still thinking removing VR was all about people being the same and progress being non-linear? The new system is a way for people to feel they are leveling faster and to make it easier for alts to be ready to play at level 50. Do people really think that a CR 300 players or mob is equal in difficulty to a CR 50 player or mob? Do you think entering a CR 10 zone (Cadwell's Silver first zone) will be the same level of challenge as entering a CR 130-140 area (upper Craglorn)? I hadn't heard people would be scaled to every zone now including those from the base game, so unless that happens, I have no idea why we wouldn't want to see the level of challenge of whatever we are facing. Just like we have since launch.

tinythinker · April 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Veteran Rank Removal. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

Were you able to equip all the gear you had before?

Yes, no probems.

If not, which pieces specifically did you have an issue with?

Not applicable.

What was your Champion rank?

Not sure, in the 500s somewhere.

Was it easy to understand what gear you could equip?

Very.

Could you tell how difficult a monster was just by looking at it?

Yes, very simple.

How was the overall difficulty when fighting monsters? Was it comparable to how it is currently on the Live megaservers?

Have only been in the new zone, so I can't say yet. Will edit later when I go back to an older zone.

Do you have any other general feedback?

The VR removal is working very well, and is simple/easy to understand. The updated UI for viewing basic info for NPCs and PCs was well done, informative, and easy to read. I like the more personalized/social format.

Enodoc · April 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Why is everyone still thinking removing VR was all about people being the same and progress being non-linear?

Because they never said it wouldn't be. Everyone had their own issues with VR - levelling speed, gear triviality, player separation, linearity - ZOS only said "We're removing VR" and "things are still being discussed", so everyone was reasonably within their right to assume that this would address their specific problem with VR.

Consider for a minute that instead of what's on PTS, they instead did exactly what they said they would do - remove VRs and measure progression with CPs. Consider CPs are exactly as they are now on Live:

CPs are gained faster, and are account-wide => addresses the levelling speed issue
Your power is tied to your CPs, but your gear is not => addresses the gear triviality issue
CPs are not visible on your character => addresses the player separation issue
No content is labelled with a CP value, even though it is designed around how many you have => addresses the linearity issue

This is what removal of VRs should have achieved.

driosketch · April 2016

estera wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Veteran Rank Removal
Monsters will now scale up faster in difficulty through veteran zones.

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:
Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.

Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

Does 160 CP cap applied when experience gain is calculated?
Or CP210+ players will only get 30% XP from CP160 mobs?

From a quick test, with 400 CP, 140 rank mobs are giving me the same xp as vr14 give my character on live. Also how many CP I spend, did not effect the xp gain.