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Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!
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Divinius✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastWithout an "opt out" toggle that completely removes any chance of any kind of PvP retaliation for committing crimes, there will be people that would hate the system, likely to the point of quitting the game.
So let's look at the other "opt out" features that ZOS attempted to incorporate into the game, shall we?
There's the "prevent attacking innocents" opt out. It's off by default, meaning new players have to know it's there and find it to prevent accidentally committing a crime. Turning it on prevents you from casting many abilities if an otherwise attackable person happens to be targeted, including non-attack buff abilities. If you want to be able to steal, but not kill, having it on also prevents you from defending yourself (which is not considered a crime) if attacked by an NPC due to a noticed stealing attempt. So this opt-out toggle is somewhat broken.
There's the pseudo-"prevent stealing" opt out, which isn't actually a "prevent stealing" opt out, because it's just a "do not auto-loot owned containers" opt out. This means that even with it checked, you can still accidentally loot free-standing non-container items that are owned (which is super-easy to do) and get a bounty, and potentially get attacked by an "innocent" NPC (see above for issues with that). While this "opt out" works as intended, it's not very useful for what it should do, which is actually prevent accidental stealing.
So...
Point #1, if they did implement the PvP justice system, the odds of them also successfully implementing a true opt-out for the people who would want it, is not very good. Even if they tried, it would likely not do what it should.
Point #2, with the existing Justice System opt-outs being dodgy and poorly implemented, even the players that actually were willing to accept "just don't steal" as a viable "opt out" would still get screwed by the system.
Altogether, ZOS made the right call just canning the whole Justice PvP idea, and the game is much better for it.
Edited by Divinius on April 21, 2016 11:25PM3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastjamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Sevalaricgirl wrote: »ZOS has done the right thing. PvP does not belong in PvE areas. PvP in the justice system means that those who don't want to PvP won't be able to participate in the justice system. We're talking about ZOS. There is no way they can separate a PvP justice system and a PvE justice system.
The current justice system doesn't really punish you for breaking the law. That's why the PvP part of it is needed.
Even if ZOS were to change their stance and include the PvP part of the justice system,you wouldn't be denied taking part in the justice system. What you would be denied is 1) outright murdering NPCs, 2) blatant thievery and 3) obvious breaking and entering. You'd just have to be more careful with how you go about criminal activity to avoid getting caught and face the consequences.
But, let's face it...you just want to avoid the consequences.
And yes, I'm a pure PvE player who doesn't want to PvP at all.
No-one wants to avoid the consequences, but some of us want PvE consequences for PvE crimes in PvE areas. Telling those who don't want to participate in PvP that they can avoid doing so by excluding themselves from some of the PvE content is not a credible solution to the problem that always occurs when the two playstyles come into conflict with each other.
I'd be more than happy if we had PvE consequences, but we don't. The bounty decays so fast it's hardly worth having it in the first place.
The justice system needs a revamp, there needs to an incentive not to commit crimes and it needs to punishing enough for people to want to avoid that.
Justice PvP would have done that, but I am happy with anything that adds a real consequence to becoming a criminal.
Why would they want to stop people from enjoying their TG and Legenrdermain (prob spelled wrong) passive skills? This isnt the real world. There are different rules. The justice system is just fine. There is no need for players to enforce anything. Its a valid way of making money in the game. Two entire skill lines. But you want them to make it so anytime anyone tries to use said passive skills you can gank them.
No, what I want are actions to have consequences. As it stands, being a criminal is rewarding while being a law-abiding citizen is not, because there is an utter lack of consequences.
I don't like the thought of being forced into PvP, but as long as ZOS gives us no real PvE consequences I see PvP as the only other possible route.
If ZOS can come up with purely PvE consequences instead, all the better.
Are other players really going to "punish" your crimes in the game by killing you for getting caught while stealing some Grain from a crate?
It's not going to be "consequences", it's going to be "Hey! Level 30 with a Bounty! Time to use my 501 CP-Point VR 16 to stomp on them and laugh! LOLOLOL! Git Gud Scrub!"
People keep saying exactly this to show how problematic the Justice system would be.
How much bounty does stealing a grain give you?
Do guards attack you on sight if you have such a low bounty?
Then why the heck would you think other players could attack that same person?
And this i all ASSUMING that there would be no opt-in.
Which, of course, there would be.
It is player interaction that prolongs the longevity of the game.
Imagine the size of the population if all players had for the whole year is Craglorn.
PvE content is good, but it becomes obsolete for a very quick time after the update apart from dungeons and trials.
If ZOS continues with this PvE content only policy, they'll need to dish out new content before I can say DLC and still won't see much growth in population size.
It is easy to abandon a game, and not that easy to get new players.
What PvE only content policy? You've had Imperial City, and you're getting small scale PvP with arenas and dueling. Moreover, most of the class and race balancing changes are derived from PvP requests. All that's quite apart from the changes made to Cyrodiil PvP over the last couple of years and which will doubtless continue.
Can you link some official info from ZOS saying anything about arenas and dueling?
So far the only thing I could find was some sarcastic comment from Gina on ESO live like: "PvP arenas? Who wants THAT?".
As much as I dislike separating the two playstyles, I can't help but notice that the PvE(only) players have gotten Lower and Upper Craglorn, the Justice system, Orsinium, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood while PvP(only) players are still playing in vanilla Cyrodill. Imperial city is a nice refresh, but it is not that popular because :
a) it is a PvPvE area, much to the dislike of everyone involved
b) it has nothing to do with the Alliance war, apart from gaining AP from kills
So to recap:
PvP got a DLC that nobody likes along with vanilla Cyrodill. No news on any PvP content.
PvE got tons of content along with many vanilla maps and content, and there are a lot more to come.
THAT is what I am saying about PvE only content policy.2 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastPersonally I will others selfish because even with the countless ways to make this work like making this a toggle which will allow you to continue playing the game as it currently is but you still voted against a idea to make the game more enjoyable for others because you don't like it.
The problem is that PvPers weren't calling for a total opt-out toggle, they wanted to apply restrictions to that meaning that if you hit a certain bounty level you'd be automatically toggled back in, and if you didn't like that you could choose not to do the PvE content in the first place. That was a completely unacceptable proposition, but that's quite apart from the other objections to the PvP element of the Justice System that were being advanced, such as the desire to not have development resources diverted away from other more pressing issues, the desire not to have cities lagged out by PvP fights, and the desire not to start on the slippery slope of open world PvP, to name but three.
Thank you, however, for helping to prolong this thread as it illustrates very well why the two playstyles don't mix well together, and is a continuing reminder to ZOS that they took the right decision to keep the playstyles separate in future.
[edited for quote]
I believe Lefty mentions many times in his video that there should be an opt in opt out feature. Maybe others in the thread made it sound like there shouldn't be.
That said my feelings on this is if you choose to steal then you have already opt'd in to the system. There should be a degree of bounty before players are able to receive a bounty request to seek out a player for their crimes, similar to how the guards won't attack you on sight until your bounty reaches a set level.
For those extreme "care bears" that don't want any pvp then ZOS could implement an option in the settings to completely turn off the system and let it revert back to what we have now in the game. With the phasing in the game they could just be sent to a different phase or something.
Either way, hopefully @ZOS is paying attention to how popular this topic remains to be.
Thanks, you have confirmed my point. PvPers don't want non-PvPers to be able to opt out completely from PvP penalties for PvE crimes in PvE areas, they want a bounty threshold set over which any PvE criminal is immediately opted in to PvP, and if they don't like it the non-PvPers can choose not to do the PvE content.
@NobleNerd does not speak for everyone. NobleNerd =/= PvPers.
There are a TON of players here that stated there should be opt-in, including the OP, if you even bothered to look at the video.
Don't take some sentence that one guy said and turn it into a general rule.3 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastjamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.2 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...2 -
NobleNerd✭✭✭✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastjamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.3 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.4 -
NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastjamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.
Did you ever hear the term 'survey'? It's what many major multi-million dollar marketing companies spend a lot of resources conducting. And from the results gathered spend further millions implementing changes based on those results. In this circumstance we have what would be referred to as an 'overwhelming majority', and to be realistic, a test group this size would be the global equivalent of a company like Gillette or L'oreal surveying a million people or more. Instead they are confident enough to use test groups of maybe 100 people at times and spend literally millions based on those opinions.
So I honestly can not even begin to comprehend how you can believe there is "ZERO interest", be it from ZOS, or particularly, the player base.Edited by NeillMcAttack on April 22, 2016 5:53PMPC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.3 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.
Did you ever hear the term 'survey'? It's what many major multi-million dollar marketing companies spend a lot of resources conducting. And from the results gathered spend further millions implementing changes based on those results. In this circumstance we have what would be referred to as an 'overwhelming majority', and to be realistic, a test group this size would be the global equivalent of a company like Gillette or L'oreal surveying a million people or more. Instead they are confident enough to use test groups of maybe 100 people at times and spend literally millions based on those opinions.
So I honestly can not even begin to comprehend how you can believe there is "ZERO interest", be it from ZOS, or particularly, the player base.
Typically when you survey people you dont ask the choir what they think. Again zero interest. Why they scrapped it.2 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastI don't for a moment think there was zero interest in it, that's an absurd suggestion. ZOS made it quite clear in ESO Live why they dropped it. They realised the more they worked on it that there were just too many opportunities for it to lead to game-breaking issues, hence the decision to put all future PvP in PvP zones and all future PvE in PvE zones. In short, they realised that the two playstyles simply don't mix well however popular each may be in its own right.1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past
Based on what given forum posters are not a representative sample?Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't for a moment think there was zero interest in it, that's an absurd suggestion. ZOS made it quite clear in ESO Live why they dropped it. They realised the more they worked on it that there were just too many opportunities for it to lead to game-breaking issues, hence the decision to put all future PvP in PvP zones and all future PvE in PvE zones. In short, they realised that the two playstyles simply don't mix well however popular each may be in its own right.
Which they were told 1000 times before they did the whole IC player looting fiasco which killed any chance IC had of success. They learned from IC that no matter what they do players will exploit the crap out of it. They will sit and farm the entrances. They drive off customers.
So while yes there is interest from the wolves there is literally zero interest from the sheep. It doesnt work without both.2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
I do not think that ZOS is in the dark like this statement implies.
One thing about polls in this forum is that there is no way to establish validity across the game population. The only thing that they can tell us is what the forum thinks, and that is rarely in question.
Although, as a forum, I do feel we must decide. Does ZOS ignore the players and what the players want, or do they blindly do what the players ask, even if it ruins the game?jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »So while yes there is interest from the wolves there is literally zero interest from the sheep. It doesnt work without both.
Baaaaa. Baaaaaa.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Divinius✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past
The gross fault in your logic here is that REAL surveys done by "major multi-million dollar marketing companies" are scientifically and statistically representative of the population because they are designed to poll an appropriate subset of the populace.NeillMcAttack wrote: »Did you ever hear the term 'survey'? It's what many major multi-million dollar marketing companies spend a lot of resources conducting. And from the results gathered spend further millions implementing changes based on those results. In this circumstance we have what would be referred to as an 'overwhelming majority', and to be realistic, a test group this size would be the global equivalent of a company like Gillette or L'oreal surveying a million people or more. Instead they are confident enough to use test groups of maybe 100 people at times and spend literally millions based on those opinions.
The major flaw with polls on these forums is that they are only polling people that frequent the forums. The problem with that is that "forum goers" are not evenly distributed among the varying types of players in the entire playerbase. Typically, the more hard-core players are the ones to frequent the forums, while many (likely most) casual players never come here.
Because of this, a poll such as this can see very skewed results if the types of players that would typically be against an issue are also the types that would rarely visit the forums. I think that is very much the case here.
The (and I hate this term) "carebears" that would be the first to quit if Justice PvP ever became a thing, are also very likely to be the same types of players that are casuals that never visit these forums. Granted, I have no proof of this, but it's definitely quite possible, and just as likely to be true as not. Hence, this poll is just as likely to be grossly inaccurate as it is likely to be accurate.
Hence, this poll is useless and cannot be trusted to give an accurate representation of the playerbase, unlike real surveys which are done in a far more controlled, and statistically viable manner.0 -
tonemd✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I don't for a moment think there was zero interest in it, that's an absurd suggestion. ZOS made it quite clear in ESO Live why they dropped it. They realised the more they worked on it that there were just too many opportunities for it to lead to game-breaking issues, hence the decision to put all future PvP in PvP zones and all future PvE in PvE zones. In short, they realised that the two playstyles simply don't mix well however popular each may be in its own right.
Which they were told 1000 times before they did the whole IC player looting fiasco which killed any chance IC had of success. They learned from IC that no matter what they do players will exploit the crap out of it. They will sit and farm the entrances. They drive off customers.
So while yes there is interest from the wolves there is literally zero interest from the sheep. It doesnt work without both.
You truly are making it your mission to stamp PVP out of this game. Here's another vote for interest in a PVP Justice System that i know won't happen because ZOS has told us it's scrapped. (Side note: The wolves will make sheep out of the wolves, they don't need to prey on the babes lost in PVP land. )
You keep saying IC was not a success because the zone is empty. The reason IC is empty is because once you have gotten your gear and the novelty of shadow ganking and infinite combat has worn off IT IS POINTLESS. They catered too much to the PVErs who cried about not having new dungeon content and didin't finish the zone for PVPers. They tried to please both camps and failed. Has nothing to do with your minority PVP theories. If they released a completely PVP centric DLC that actually added new play modes, it WOULD be successful. If done well it WOULD retain players long term. Cyrodiil was empty for the 1st few weeks when IC was released. There WAS interest in a PVP centric DLC. But it was too much of a half step.5 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past
The gross fault in your logic here is that REAL surveys done by "major multi-million dollar marketing companies" are scientifically and statistically representative of the population because they are designed to poll an appropriate subset of the populace.NeillMcAttack wrote: »Did you ever hear the term 'survey'? It's what many major multi-million dollar marketing companies spend a lot of resources conducting. And from the results gathered spend further millions implementing changes based on those results. In this circumstance we have what would be referred to as an 'overwhelming majority', and to be realistic, a test group this size would be the global equivalent of a company like Gillette or L'oreal surveying a million people or more. Instead they are confident enough to use test groups of maybe 100 people at times and spend literally millions based on those opinions.
The major flaw with polls on these forums is that they are only polling people that frequent the forums. The problem with that is that "forum goers" are not evenly distributed among the varying types of players in the entire playerbase. Typically, the more hard-core players are the ones to frequent the forums, while many (likely most) casual players never come here.
Because of this, a poll such as this can see very skewed results if the types of players that would typically be against an issue are also the types that would rarely visit the forums. I think that is very much the case here.
The (and I hate this term) "carebears" that would be the first to quit if Justice PvP ever became a thing, are also very likely to be the same types of players that are casuals that never visit these forums. Granted, I have no proof of this, but it's definitely quite possible, and just as likely to be true as not. Hence, this poll is just as likely to be grossly inaccurate as it is likely to be accurate.
Hence, this poll is useless and cannot be trusted to give an accurate representation of the playerbase, unlike real surveys which are done in a far more controlled, and statistically viable manner.
Agreed. However, it's not just down to "hardcore" versus "casual" in topics and polls like this one. There are other playstyle distinctions at play here.
I think it's generally accepted on game forums that no more than 10% of the players visit the forums and even fewer post. It's also generally accepted that the small minority of players who post most vocally are those with complaints against the game. Those players with no complaints tend to focus on playing the game. A few, myself included, like to post in order to provide some positivity and balance so prospective players don't just see the negativity and move on.
I think it's also generally accepted in ESO that the players with the most to complain about - whether hardcore or casual - are the PvPers. They have had performance, balancing, and content issues since the game's launch and those issues dominate the forums. While there are some PvE issues, by comparison they are few in number and trivial in nature compared to the PvP issues.
Now I have no proof of the accuracy of any of this, it's just my opinion so no need for anyone to ask for evidence. Others will either agree or disagree with me. If, however, I'm remotely accurate in my beliefs then it follows that the forum population is weighted in favour of the PvPers, and any PvP/PvE poll is therefore likely to be similarly weighted and unlikely to give a truly representative indication of the views of the players as a whole. All that means, of course, is that ZOS need to consider the views expressed here with some caution and with additional regard to a variety of other forms of feedback including other forums, bug and feedback reports, and their own data logs. Additionally, while taking all of this on board they should not lose track of their own vision for the game.
I think that's the overall approach they've taken to the Justice System. They've considered all the forms of feedback available to them, considered the data logs in terms of the amount of participation in PvE and PvP, not least in relation to Imperial City, and they've stuck to their vision for viable PvE and PvP in the game whilst recognising that mixing the two playstyles together simply doesn't work and won't therefore be tried again. I think people need to accept that, move on, and help to shape the new content that is coming whether they are interested in PvE, PvP, or both.0 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I don't for a moment think there was zero interest in it, that's an absurd suggestion. ZOS made it quite clear in ESO Live why they dropped it. They realised the more they worked on it that there were just too many opportunities for it to lead to game-breaking issues, hence the decision to put all future PvP in PvP zones and all future PvE in PvE zones. In short, they realised that the two playstyles simply don't mix well however popular each may be in its own right.
Which they were told 1000 times before they did the whole IC player looting fiasco which killed any chance IC had of success. They learned from IC that no matter what they do players will exploit the crap out of it. They will sit and farm the entrances. They drive off customers.
So while yes there is interest from the wolves there is literally zero interest from the sheep. It doesnt work without both.
You truly are making it your mission to stamp PVP out of this game. Here's another vote for interest in a PVP Justice System that i know won't happen because ZOS has told us it's scrapped. (Side note: The wolves will make sheep out of the wolves, they don't need to prey on the babes lost in PVP land. )
You keep saying IC was not a success because the zone is empty. The reason IC is empty is because once you have gotten your gear and the novelty of shadow ganking and infinite combat has worn off IT IS POINTLESS. They catered too much to the PVErs who cried about not having new dungeon content and didin't finish the zone for PVPers. They tried to please both camps and failed. Has nothing to do with your minority PVP theories. If they released a completely PVP centric DLC that actually added new play modes, it WOULD be successful. If done well it WOULD retain players long term. Cyrodiil was empty for the 1st few weeks when IC was released. There WAS interest in a PVP centric DLC. But it was too much of a half step.
You are giving me a big head hehe. I like you think my opinions on these forums somehow affect what ZOS does. Especially as far as PVP goes. My opinions nor my actions affect anything. I would be surprised if anyone from ZOS even reads this entire thread.
IC was not a success because it didnt sell very well. Turns out the idea of luring people into a pvp zone then ganking them turned out not to be popular. The nail in the coffin tho was the player looting aspect. That one decision alone killed it for the majority of people I know.
They released a PVP DLC you guys didnt like it. The chances of you liking literally anything they do is miniscule at best. These design decsions are not made on a whim. They dont say "Hmm well we want to do this whole PVP thing but James on the forums doesnt seem into it so we scrapped all those man hours of work.".Edited by jamesharv2005ub17_ESO on April 22, 2016 8:13PM1 -
NobleNerd✭✭✭✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastjamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.
Did you ever hear the term 'survey'? It's what many major multi-million dollar marketing companies spend a lot of resources conducting. And from the results gathered spend further millions implementing changes based on those results. In this circumstance we have what would be referred to as an 'overwhelming majority', and to be realistic, a test group this size would be the global equivalent of a company like Gillette or L'oreal surveying a million people or more. Instead they are confident enough to use test groups of maybe 100 people at times and spend literally millions based on those opinions.
So I honestly can not even begin to comprehend how you can believe there is "ZERO interest", be it from ZOS, or particularly, the player base.
Typically when you survey people you dont ask the choir what they think. Again zero interest. Why they scrapped it.
They scrapped it because they did not have the dev. crew capable of implementing it into the game properly. Currently ZOS is a shadow of what it was a year ago. They are picking the easiest content to implement that will not cause more players to leave the game right now... thus the reason you won't see spell crafting anytime soon or ever & player housing might become lost in limbo too.3 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »NeillMcAttack wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.
Did you ever hear the term 'survey'? It's what many major multi-million dollar marketing companies spend a lot of resources conducting. And from the results gathered spend further millions implementing changes based on those results. In this circumstance we have what would be referred to as an 'overwhelming majority', and to be realistic, a test group this size would be the global equivalent of a company like Gillette or L'oreal surveying a million people or more. Instead they are confident enough to use test groups of maybe 100 people at times and spend literally millions based on those opinions.
So I honestly can not even begin to comprehend how you can believe there is "ZERO interest", be it from ZOS, or particularly, the player base.
Typically when you survey people you dont ask the choir what they think. Again zero interest. Why they scrapped it.
They scrapped it because they did not have the dev. crew capable of implementing it into the game properly. Currently ZOS is a shadow of what it was a year ago. They are picking the easiest content to implement that will not cause more players to leave the game right now... thus the reason you won't see spell crafting anytime soon or ever & player housing might become lost in limbo too.
Well the reason they said they scrapped it was because they didnt think it was a good idea to spread PVP into the PVE areas because the PVE people didnt want that. I can only go by what they say. Thinking they would scrap housing which would be a major cash cow is kind of funny. Why would they do that?1 -
Dubhliam✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastjamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.
This is a transcript from PAX:
Q: One of the things that I really wanted to see in ESO was the PvP Justice System and I was wondering if there was anything specific that you discovered during your balancing that makes it entirely impossible forever doing this or is it maybe there might be some way to figure out how to do it at some point?
RL: So, nothing's impossible. Right with the justice system the PvP portion of it specifically there are a lot of edge cases. We have a lot of really creative players who run around in Cyrodiil and when you see what they're doing and how there doing it and y'know we have to be very careful that we don't break what we've got already. PvE portion of the justice system is really popular and everyone loves it and changing that, well, I've heard a lot of suggestions like just let players opt-in well as soon as you do that the less scrupulous players start to play with that and find some loopholes and so we decided that rather than go down that road we'd focus our efforts elsewhere. But nothing's impossible.
I bolded two parts in case you don't want to read it.
Because I know you don't.
People have the right to express their opinion on the forums about any issue they have with either existing content or the lack of one.
Stop trying to silence people from voicing their opinion.Edited by Dubhliam on April 25, 2016 7:30AM3 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastarch-age comes to mind when i read this. honestly no thank you, i like my pve without those who enjoy trolling with pvp. i like my pvp and pve separate.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer2 -
AdamBourke✭✭✭✭✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the pastI would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.PS4 - EU
Please put the Eyevea/EarthForge wayshrines back on the map?1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastAdamBourke wrote: »I would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.
Here we go again, no proposal for a complete opt-in and opt-out, just a bounty threshold that means if a PvEer goes over that threshold through committing PvE crimes in a PvE zone he gets caught with PvP penalties. If players who want a PvP element added to the Justice System would only support a complete opt-out arrangement they might find the opposition to it greatly reduced.
The point about Imperial City is irrelevant - that offers limited PvE content in a PvP zone that was introduced as a PvP DLC and is accessed from an original PvP zone. The Justice System idea is for PvP to be added to existing PvE content in an original PvE zone - altogether different!3 -
NobleNerd✭✭✭✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastAdamBourke wrote: »I would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.
What they could have done was gradually introduce the PvP Justice System. It could have started with TG DLC then expanded to specific zones. This can be a way to judge the impact and popularity of the feature.
Unfortunately this should have been offered with TG and DB.
It is sad when you do the questing and even the Justice System how irrelevant the consequences are... even non-existent! There is little impactful consequences in the game.2 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastAdamBourke wrote: »I would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.
What they could have done was gradually introduce the PvP Justice System. It could have started with TG DLC then expanded to specific zones. This can be a way to judge the impact and popularity of the feature.
Unfortunately this should have been offered with TG and DB.
It is sad when you do the questing and even the Justice System how irrelevant the consequences are... even non-existent! There is little impactful consequences in the game.
Meh, having forced PvP is never a good thing, imo. it just gets abused, no matter how they do it, I've seen other games with open world PvP, and guess what. They all had people abusing it. Better to just let people decide on if they want to join that or not with a toggle. And you'd have a lot less resistance from others if it was a toggle.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD1 -
NobleNerd✭✭✭✭I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastcosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »AdamBourke wrote: »I would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.
What they could have done was gradually introduce the PvP Justice System. It could have started with TG DLC then expanded to specific zones. This can be a way to judge the impact and popularity of the feature.
Unfortunately this should have been offered with TG and DB.
It is sad when you do the questing and even the Justice System how irrelevant the consequences are... even non-existent! There is little impactful consequences in the game.
Meh, having forced PvP is never a good thing, imo. it just gets abused, no matter how they do it, I've seen other games with open world PvP, and guess what. They all had people abusing it. Better to just let people decide on if they want to join that or not with a toggle. And you'd have a lot less resistance from others if it was a toggle.
People abuse any system if they can. Even the PvE system gets abused and exploited. I guess we should just do away with that also!1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »I also like how they say this topic of open pvp player killing is popular. 99% of the responses have been negative and less than one tenth of one percent of the forum even bothered to read it.
Statistics for the win.
This is a poll thread.
25% players don't want PvP Justice.
If what you say is true, then 1/4th of the players here have poster 99% of posts.
Talk about a vocal minority.
This entire thread had 695 responses. Out of what over 100,000 forum users? Maybe even more than that? Talk about a minority...
At this point I believe you would argue how beautiful and blue the sky is if it doesn't fit your point of view.
For me the fact that this post keeps coming back with a large portion of those voting on the poll in favor of some kind of pvp Justice System tells me there is more interest in it than ZOS anticipated.
Personally for me it is one of the reasons I do not play ESO much.
Large portion? You think a few hundred people is a large portion of the playerbase? Seriously? Fact is its scrapped. ZOS isnt going to do it. They have already said as much. There is ZERO interest. This poll represents a very very very small subsection of the forum much less the player base. 99.99% of the people on the forum didnt even bother to click on it.
If because you cant gank new people you wont play ESO I say good. We dont need that kind of player.
This is a transcript from PAX:
Q: One of the things that I really wanted to see in ESO was the PvP Justice System and I was wondering if there was anything specific that you discovered during your balancing that makes it entirely impossible forever doing this or is it maybe there might be some way to figure out how to do it at some point?
RL: So, nothing's impossible. Right with the justice system the PvP portion of it specifically there are a lot of edge cases. We have a lot of really creative players who run around in Cyrodiil and when you see what they're doing and how there doing it and y'know we have to be very careful that we don't break what we've got already. PvE portion of the justice system is really popular and everyone loves it and changing that, well, I've heard a lot of suggestions like just let players opt-in well as soon as you do that the less scrupulous players start to play with that and find some loopholes and so we decided that rather than go down that road we'd focus our efforts elsewhere. But nothing's impossible.
I bolded two parts in case you don't want to read it.
Because I know you don't.
People have the right to express their opinion on the forums about any issue they have with either existing content or the lack of one.
Stop trying to silence people from voicing their opinion.
First off I am not trying to stop anyone from voicing opinions. Second he clearly says that while nothing is technically impossible this isnt happening. Hes trying to be nice. Instead of bluntly saying there is no way to stop players from exploiting this and its not worth spending the time/money on.1 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the pastcosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »AdamBourke wrote: »I would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.
What they could have done was gradually introduce the PvP Justice System. It could have started with TG DLC then expanded to specific zones. This can be a way to judge the impact and popularity of the feature.
Unfortunately this should have been offered with TG and DB.
It is sad when you do the questing and even the Justice System how irrelevant the consequences are... even non-existent! There is little impactful consequences in the game.
Meh, having forced PvP is never a good thing, imo. it just gets abused, no matter how they do it, I've seen other games with open world PvP, and guess what. They all had people abusing it. Better to just let people decide on if they want to join that or not with a toggle. And you'd have a lot less resistance from others if it was a toggle.
People abuse any system if they can. Even the PvE system gets abused and exploited. I guess we should just do away with that also!
Did you read what I wrote there? I didn't say do away with pvp justice system, just that there should be a toggle for it. And besides, PvP abusing affects people a whole lot more than any abuse people can do in PvE.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD1 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »AdamBourke wrote: »I would be fine with this, as long as it is only for bounties over a certain value, and a demand for arrest must be given before it is activated (maybe with an "Citizen's Arrest" interaction).
I think that people who are saying that PvE and PvP should remain separate, are forgetting that imperial city is in fact a mixed zone. Perhaps there can be other zones that contain only incidental PvP such as the justice system.
What they could have done was gradually introduce the PvP Justice System. It could have started with TG DLC then expanded to specific zones. This can be a way to judge the impact and popularity of the feature.
Unfortunately this should have been offered with TG and DB.
It is sad when you do the questing and even the Justice System how irrelevant the consequences are... even non-existent! There is little impactful consequences in the game.
Meh, having forced PvP is never a good thing, imo. it just gets abused, no matter how they do it, I've seen other games with open world PvP, and guess what. They all had people abusing it. Better to just let people decide on if they want to join that or not with a toggle. And you'd have a lot less resistance from others if it was a toggle.
People abuse any system if they can. Even the PvE system gets abused and exploited. I guess we should just do away with that also!
In PVE tho you arent killing paying customers. Big difference.2