anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

ok, so tell me...which equipment is exclusive to get in the hardest content (regarding 4-men-dungeons)?

Spellpower cure, scathing mage, etc... all IC sets are not obtainable anywhere else but in those dungeons.

True... But:
1)You can scale it down to vr1, collect embers and get 2 random vr16 items from the chest;
2)You can farm vr15 versions that have marginally less stats, which wont make or break your char if youre not minmaxing
3)You're very naive if you think that ability to beat these dungeons on vr16 means that you can get the sets. It took me months to get 5 pieces of spell cure, and 3 of them are stll not divine. I farm since release. Dont you think that more reliable way to fram these would be more casual friendly than nerfing the dungeon?

Only your 1st option is a real option to get the gear.

to your 3rd point : You've done *exactly* what ZOS wanted (me too, by the way, I also have my 5pcs SPC...) : running the dungeons. ZOS wants the casual to do the same : run the dungeons. Not play less of hard content for more reliable loot, but play more of nerfed content for the same rare loot, forcing to more play.

I'm not saying that's good. All I'm saying is that's what ZOS wants and by those standards, your suggestion isn't a good one to them.

Yes. But there is a way, and bad rng is much more discouraging than difficulty (even with the nerf, 400-600 runs are out of the reach for casual players). I also saw that many people dont want to even try vMA due to how unrewarding it is...
The problem is complex... There's an issue with inexperienced players excluded from groups, and its also related to mindless farming - the faster, the better. The list goes on.
And nerfs are only causing segregation of the community, since of course, people who like challenge will ge angry at those who dont like it since there wont be any content left for them. Its not a good thing for a game. Community is an important part of any online game, after all.

Imo, if they cared for casuals, making a pve-only version of IC and reducing grinds would help more without taking away the last challenging 4 man content.

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Like I said somewhere else, if you want to put forth the idea that the nerf is an arbitrary decision from ZOS and not based on any of the heated nerf ICP/WGT threads that have cropped up from time to time, I can't be bothered to argue that point.

It's not arbitrary. But I'm convinced that it isn't based on players' requests or complaints. It's based on ZOS' desire/strategic goal to have more players play more and longer.

timidobserver wrote: »

As far as it being my opinion goes, have you looked at the title of the thread you are posting in? It's filled with people who are completely open to compromise. I am completely open to almost any compromise that leaves some remotely challenging 4 man content in the game.

And that's very relevant to this thread's purpose. Because if your argumentation is "some players want hard content vs. most players want the dungeons nerfed", you're simply mistargeting. The issue is not that casual players want to run those dungeons, it's that ZOS want more players to run those dungeons.

In other words, if 100% of the players would actually express that they're absolutely fine with the current difficulty (and those who find it too hard are ok with not running them), ZOS would answer "we'll nerf them anyway because we want you to run them and play more".

The entity with whom you have to negotiate a compromise here is not "casual players", it's ZOS.

Then instead of nerfing, they should be incentivising.

^Exactly!^

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

bad rng is much more discouraging than difficulty .../...

Then instead of nerfing, they should be incentivising.

^Exactly!^

So say you.
I don't know and can't speak for anyone else but me, but in my case, they could put the all-times best-in-slot item-of-my-dreams as reward for vMA, I still wouldn't run it. And if they did the same for vICP I would probably run it just the few times needed to loot the so precious item, and never go back.

I play for fun, so it's really hard to make me run something that's not fun to me, no matter what.

Even if many people are probably less stubborn than me, obviously if the goal is to have more people play more, without creating new content, then nerfed dungeons + bad RNG is the correct recipe.

EDIT : to stay on the constructive side of things : I believe the whole concept of "learning" in this game needs to be deeply re-thought by ZOS. There are no tools, no information, no curve. The soloing zones teach you nearly nothing in terms of gameplay, when you reach group content you enter a whole new world where all the teaching had to be made by the guilds, and when you reach competitive endgame like SO, vMoL, IC dungeons or vMA, that's yet another completely different world.
Nothing in the game teaches you anything. There are no progression steps.
In my opinion that would be the way to go for hard content to be more affordable and less scary for more people.

timidobserver wrote: »

My response was related to why difficulty sliders, alternative ideas, or pleas for a compromise will not budge the stance of those that want the dungeons nerfed.

Because none of your suggestions fulfills their ultimate goal (having more people play more) since you're ignoring it ;-)

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

bad rng is much more discouraging than difficulty .../...

Then instead of nerfing, they should be incentivising.

^Exactly!^

So say you.
I don't know and can't speak for anyone else but me, but in my case, they could put the all-times best-in-slot item-of-my-dreams as reward for vMA, I still wouldn't run it. And if they did the same for vICP I would probably run it just the few times needed to loot the so precious item, and never go back.

I play for fun, so it's really hard to make me run something that's not fun to me, no matter what.

Even if many people are probably less stubborn than me, obviously if the goal is to have more people play more, without creating new content, then nerfed dungeons + bad RNG is the correct recipe.

I guess that's our divide then, I like it and find it fun. You don't.

EDIT : to stay on the constructive side of things : I believe the whole concept of "learning" in this game needs to be deeply re-thought by ZOS. There are no tools, no information, no curve. The soloing zones teach you nearly nothing in terms of gameplay, when you reach group content you enter a whole new world where all the teaching had to be made by the guilds, and when you reach competitive endgame like SO, vMoL, IC dungeons or vMA, that's yet another completely different world.
Nothing in the game teaches you anything. There are no progression steps.
In my opinion that would be the way to go for hard content to be more affordable and less scary for more people.

Absolutely, 100%.

But look at the reactions when anything touches on suggesting that.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Therefore ZOS must be basing their decisions on what they customers - the majority of them - want(or what ZOS thinks they want at least) in order to get profit. But people like me are also their customers, and we have the right to voice our opinions and concerns about the long-term success of their product(which ZOS should actually be interested in more than we are) due to their current decisions. And try to offer alternatives.

ZOS has far more valuable information than "what we want" or "what a few forumers want".
They know what we do in the game. Each and every one of us.
Anf they also know what translates into money for them - and what doesn't.

I think your faith in ZOS ultimate knowledge and understanding of their game and players is...rather unfounded. And even if they had a better track record...what's up with this "they're the boss so they always know better" mentality? All MMOs owners should know what their players do in the game, so by your logic they should always make correct(in terms of long term success of the game) decisions and be immune to failure? ...this might be my first MMO but something(must be my amazing female intuition) tells me that's not how it works.

Also yes, I totally agree on the whole learning curve and lack of thereof in this game thing. That's pretty much the whole point of this thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Therefore ZOS must be basing their decisions on what they customers - the majority of them - want(or what ZOS thinks they want at least) in order to get profit. But people like me are also their customers, and we have the right to voice our opinions and concerns about the long-term success of their product(which ZOS should actually be interested in more than we are) due to their current decisions. And try to offer alternatives.

ZOS has far more valuable information than "what we want" or "what a few forumers want".
They know what we do in the game. Each and every one of us.
Anf they also know what translates into money for them - and what doesn't.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

ok, so tell me...which equipment is exclusive to get in the hardest content (regarding 4-men-dungeons)?

Spellpower cure, scathing mage, etc... all IC sets are not obtainable anywhere else but in those dungeons.

True... But:
1)You can scale it down to vr1, collect embers and get 2 random vr16 items from the chest;
2)You can farm vr15 versions that have marginally less stats, which wont make or break your char if youre not minmaxing
3)You're very naive if you think that ability to beat these dungeons on vr16 means that you can get the sets. It took me months to get 5 pieces of spell cure, and 3 of them are stll not divine. I farm since release. Dont you think that more reliable way to fram these would be more casual friendly than nerfing the dungeon?

Only your 1st option is a real option to get the gear.

to your 3rd point : You've done *exactly* what ZOS wanted (me too, by the way, I also have my 5pcs SPC...) : running the dungeons. ZOS wants the casual to do the same : run the dungeons. Not play less of hard content for more reliable loot, but play more of nerfed content for the same rare loot, forcing to more play.

I'm not saying that's good. All I'm saying is that's what ZOS wants and by those standards, your suggestion isn't a good one to them.

Token system would be the way to go then, 25 for normal 60 for veteran then buy the gear you want with useful traits for so many tokens per piece..

There should be a progressive increase in difficulty in the old 4-man dungeons not a nerf on the only three "hard" ones.

IMHO the problem is that people have no need to think about their builds, seek informations online or to say it bluntly "L2P" because the vast majority of the content is downright obsolete, there is no learning curve as it is either super easy (basically everything), hard (WGT, ICP, SO, maybe Hel Ra HM?) or Super Hard (vMA, vMoL).

So, the best way to make those kind of players "good" is to actually implement a learning curve in the game instead of nerfing everything to the point where people don't need to "L2P" because they can get all the BiS gear without putting the effort me and the other "good" players have put into this game.

Yesterday me and some friends took some friends of a friend (lol sorry if it's redundant) through Aetherian Archive HM and MoL (normal but v16) and omg the things that I saw.
Magicka Sorcs DPS in 7 heavy running with a lightning staff doing heavy attacks and healing with VIGOR while spamming shields. Stamina Nightblades using ambush on the Mage in AA, nobody was weaving 'cause too busy spamming frags and this kind of stuff.

We managed to complete it only to hear after "I only need to do SO now and I think we can do it with this group".
Hell no guys.

Just try and use group finder for a vet Dungeon, most of the people run around with hybrid builds (wich if you guys didn't know don't work very well) or use heavy armor instead of medium\light because "I don't want to be squishy".

It's not about "Play as you want" is about "play your role as you want" you have the freedom to tank with all classes with a large variety of skills and approaches, you can DPS with all classes BUT you need to spec correctly to do it and practice your rotation, and you can heal with all classes even if some might be kind of complicated.

In the end, if the nerf really hits this dungeon there will be no interesting content left for me and most of the players I hang around with. It's hard to make a group of 12 unless it's in the evening and I can't run Maelstrom all day, so we'll be forced to leave a game we really like.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

A difficulty slider won't change anything. The only point to a difficulty slider would be to increase the reward/incentive for doing the content at a more difficult level. The problem is that the people that do content with the slider set low will find it unacceptable that their reward is not the same as those that do it with it set on high. There is no solution to people with their point of view.

There is no solution either to people who think that a maximum level of difficulty is not worth doing if not tied to a max level reward exclusive to that level.

If you dont think the difficulty is worth doing then you are not worth having the gear. You and other casuals should seriously learn to play and stop whining and complaining on forums for nerfs. You and other casuals crippled this games content and now you want to cripple it even more? Seriously right now the dungeons feel like they are made for special needs people and you want it to be nerfed even more? HUH!?!?!?!

Go do some research on builds and how to play instead of crying on this forum for nerfs.

I really don't understand the seemingly widespread aversion to a challenge. People, including me in the case of these particular dungeons, need to learn to play.

Dubhliam wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

RedRoomGaming wrote: »

White gold tower is probably the easiest of them all lol. vICP we cannot get past first boss because we do not know the mechanics yet. If people actually got used to the mechanics instead of crying nerf all the damn time it would be easier.

you are probably over dpsing the boss tank him in front of the portal do steady dps as soon as adds spawn focus them then back to the boss at 50% use ultimates as a harvester spawns then repeat.
the adds spawn at boss health %'s so to much dps results in getting overwhelmed

I got the bosses mixed up. I meant the ones with the elite atronach spawns. We just haven't got the rhythm of throwing the bombs at the correct time and dps if you get me.

ok with this one tank him near the pool and dps untill 60% then he will become immune then focus any atros and throw bombs designate 1 player for each doorway. when he returns you may have another atro spawn use ulti on this and boss basically repeat this pattern.

That was the correct tactic before the patch where Flesh Sculptor got changed.

Currently the best tactic is:
Focus Atronarchs AS SOON AS THEY SPAWN.
This will give you plenty of time for every member of the group to throw bombs once the boss goes to the pond.
When the boss leaves the pond, the tank should take aggro, but everyone else DON'T STOP THROWING BOMBS. Only when the zombies stop coming out, then you should resume killing the boss.

Or stack and burn

Clarkieson wrote: »

I completely disagree with the content being too hard.

Helped a 60+ year old lady through VWGT this evening, she has bad thimbs too. Now she has a molag kena 2 piece set. There goes a happy lady, and why not? She was determined to learn and give the dungeon a real go.

Put some people to real shame.

People should feel ashamed for failing (or not wanting to put effort in) a dungeon in a video game ?
Really ? I mean... REALLY ???

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

My 2 cents.

Here is the underlying problem. Right now, we have 2 difficulty modes. Normal which is a cakewalk, and Vet, which at least with ICP and even WGT, I will admit can be challenging. They certainly were back in the day. Normal provides absolutely no incentive to run it, but Vet drops some of the best gear in the game. This is not limited to these dungeons. Look at VMA, there are two modes: Laughably Easy (no viable end-game gear) and Nightmare (BIS weapons). People get upset, I believe, because they want access to the gear more than anything.

But that's(the bolded part) is just not true. Normal provides absolutely no incentive to run it, but Vet drops some of the best gear in the game.

I thank you for the kind words, but I have to disagree. Each of these dungeons provides something necessary. I guess i fall into the min/maxer category, no point in denying it. Right now, there are 3 places I NEED to run to min/max my build on my DK, and they are all the places we talked about. I need a better trait (divines) on a v16 heavy Skoria Helm (only available from VCOA), I need a second Maelstrom inferno staff (only available in VMSA), and I need better traits on 2 of my scathing pieces (only available in VICP). I still need better traits on some stuff from VWGT, but that grind is pretty much behind me.

Skoria is one of the 3 viable DPS monster sets available. I wont say its the undisputed BIS, but for many builds it is. You need VCOA to get it. VWGT, provides another one of these helms, that is again BIS for certain builds. It also gives Spell Power Cure, which is arguably BIS for healers, and Imperium, which a lot of tanks are after. VICP gives Scathing, which again is arguably best in slot for most magic DPS builds if you get the good traits. None of this stuff can be found in the normal version. Other than the skill point, there is no incentive to run them. As I think I have shown, BIS gear is lurking in the depths of the veteran versions only.

As for the difference between v15 and v16 gear, it is bigger than you think for a few reasons. One reason that is often overlooked is that v16 enchants are much more powerful than v15 enchants. It is also pretty silly IMO to make a v15 piece of gear gold. So really you end up comparing purple v15 to gold v16, and it absolutely makes a difference, especially on weapons. You can certainly clear all content (save VMOL) in purple v15 gear, but anyone going for time is going to notice a drop in their performance, especially on a DPS.

All I keep hearing is BiS.

1. you are a min/maxer and have no problems in those dungeons whatsoever
2. you are a casual and cannot complete

Who said that casuals NEED BiS gear? Or that they should have that gear more available to them?

Some of the best builds include craftable armor and weapons and purchasable jewlery.

Shouldn't nerf what has been proven beatable.