If you can complete VetMSA with Massive DPS, Can you make a Build with Massive Defenses and no DPS?

Trashkan · April 2016

I use the exact same build in VMSA as in pvp. That being said I challenge get you to a duel!!!!! Also I use it for PVE I just switch out sword and board for duel wield.

Frawr · April 2016

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

This is true of eso and I am sure that zos shares your view

It is not true of many other games.

The reason that it is true here is that the goal is ultimately to kill the enemy.

In many other games, it is not purely team death match pvp and so the goal is not directly the death of the enemy.

As soon as the goal is anything other than team death match then all 3 roles become equal. In plenty of games out there, dps cannot survive without tank and heals.

Only in eso have they created a game where the dps can heal themselves with strength scaling based on their damage stats.

That is just insane.

Septimus_Magna · April 2016

vMA builds needs to deal dmg while mitigating the incoming dmg and sustaining resources.
Higher dmg means shorter time to kill so low mitigation and sustain needed.

This means that stacking dmg is way more effective than stacking resist because low dmg increases the duration of the fight which makes sustain more difficult.

Besides that, there are certain mechanics that almost force the players to have high burst, like stage 5 and cremetorial guards in the final stage for example. If you stretch these fights too long the incoming dmg will increase to a point where its impossible to mitigate.

code65536 · April 2016

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

LOL.

Foundation and walls are support elements.

The furniture is always the main thing.

The goal of any house is for people to comfortably live there. They can't sit on foundation or walls. This is why furniture is apriori the main thing. In a house, foundation and walls are there only to keep furniture inside while it's there for people to use.

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

Bad analogy is bad. The main purpose of a home is to provide shelter, so the foundation and walls are the main thing. You can do without furniture.

I'll stick with the army analogy. Yes, it's important to have a good competent general, medics, quartermasters and mess officers to keep the army alive, fed and led, and chances are, you'll lose the war if you lose that support. But you'll definitely lose the war if you lose your soldiers.

In any case, as I've stated, everyone needs a mix of all three. But, for the most part, you need to do damage because it doesn't matter how well you can survive if you can't actually kill your enemy.

(And I should add that I myself have two tanks. I tank in ESO and I like tanking in ESO. But I'm also under no delusion that tanks are anything but a support role. An important support role, yes, but nevertheless a support role.)

Oh, and you'll probably want to watch this video of shunchan soloing vCoA:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9XRCf2L9Tg

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

I am still not totally sure what the question is. There seems to be debate about PVP vs DPS vs MSA builds. My take is that a VMSA build to learn the arena on is going to look a lot like a PVP build, and as you get better, it will look more like a straight DPS build. At the extreme end of things, the best players are going straight glass cannon in here. In the beginning, the fights are going to take a lot more time as you sort out mechanics and kill priority. Here people are going to want extra mitigation, heals and sustain. Sounds like PVP, at least from a stat standpoint. Obviously, some of the skills might be different. Once you are spawn camping, things die faster, so you dont need as much of the above.

The best magic NBs, and Sorcs dont even run a resto staff, and from what I can tell, the best magic DKs arent even using their basic class heals (embers and draw essence). End of the day, you need to start with a threshold level of DPS, and some basic heals and mitigation. As you get better, you can slide down the spectrum to a more glass cannon approach. There are several DPS checks along the way. The first is actually the stage 1 boss. If he is teleporting on you more than twice before you kill him, you are going to struggle. Truthfully, he shouldnt be able to port more than once if your DPS is reasonably high. You are also going to run into DPS checks in round 4 and certainly on the last boss in 9. Round 5 boss is Not a DPS check, but the early stages of 5 are as taxing as anything in the arena. You either need High DPS or High Mitigation. Both can be effective here.

Also, there really isnt that much difference between a Magic NB and a Magic Sorc in there. In fact, there are several parts of the arena (some of the tougher parts if you ask me) that are much easier on a NB. If you have a siphonblade and cant clear, but make comments about how "Easy" it is on a sorc, you have a serious L2P issue.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · April 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

Okay, magblades don't count.

If you were a stamblade, you'd have a different setup in vMA than you would in a trial. The point is that straight DPS is not what wins the day. It's DPS with a good measure of sustain and survival, and some builds (magblades) have it easier than others.

Apart from glass cannon sorc who do VMSA, they get sustain from overload, they get defence from shields... xD There even more glass cannon than nb's.

Sorcs (at least the good ones) dont run Shield in Trials. Most dont even run overload anymore. From a gear standpoint, pretty much any class can run their trial gear. From a skill standpoint, you are likely going to make some subtle changes from a true glass cannon build, even on a Sorc or NB. The three skills that make sorcs arguably the best class (again, I think magic NB is really close) are Power Surge, Overload, and Hardened Ward. You wont find any of those skills on the best raid sorcs anymore. They run meteor because the new trial fights last so long, they get their spell power from igneous weapons or pots, and they get heals and damage mitigation from healers.

The_Great_Maldini · April 2016

strikeback1247 wrote: »

LegendaryNinja wrote: »

Sorry if I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for ways for a Tanks to Complete VetMSA. I'm looking for methods, skills, and tactics to have sustained defense against players with builds meant to complete VetMSA.

PvP builds and vMSA specific builds are completely different. I don't know anyone that uses even closely the same setup in both game types. It is, however, always possible to tank players that are skilled enough to defeat vMSA. The maelstrom weapons do not give that big of an advantage.

I agree. For vMSA or other end game PvE content I run Julianos or even Twice Born Star.

For PvP I use Vicious Death and Clever Alchemist 5 piece sets. I'm considering making a set of Kagrenac's Hope as well. All of these sets are vastly different from PvE gear lol.

Artis · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

You rly need to play with some good DDs. Most bosses hit like a wet noodle and all classes are able to heal thereselves while dpsing...

Youtube-Link

edit: i rly need to learn how to get a working youtube-video into my comment -.-

I have played with some good DDs as a tank. I am currently not the worst DD myself. (DD? They call them DPS in the 21st century :P)

Tell you what, at the designed level cap you did need a tank in trials. Bosses did not hit like a wet noodle. Manticore and Serpent image, Warrior, Axes - all those things would oneshot a bad tank, let alone DPS.

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

LOL.

Foundation and walls are support elements.

The furniture is always the main thing.

The goal of any house is for people to comfortably live there. They can't sit on foundation or walls. This is why furniture is apriori the main thing. In a house, foundation and walls are there only to keep furniture inside while it's there for people to use.

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

Bad analogy is bad. The main purpose of a home is to provide shelter, so the foundation and walls are the main thing. You can do without furniture.

I'll stick with the army analogy. Yes, it's important to have a good competent general, medics, quartermasters and mess officers to keep the army alive, fed and led, and chances are, you'll lose the war if you lose that support. But you'll definitely lose the war if you lose your soldiers.

In any case, as I've stated, everyone needs a mix of all three. But, for the most part, you need to do damage because it doesn't matter how well you can survive if you can't actually kill your enemy.

(And I should add that I myself have two tanks. I tank in ESO and I like tanking in ESO. But I'm also under no delusion that tanks are anything but a support role. An important support role, yes, but nevertheless a support role.)

Oh, and you'll probably want to watch this video of shunchan soloing vCoA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9XRCf2L9Tg

It's not bad. If you say it's purpose is to give shelter. Then a group's purpose is to complete encounter. You can't complete it if everybody is dead. No, tanks and healers aren't support roles. They would be only if DPS could complete it without tanks/heals and those would simply make things easier. It's not the case in ESO's endgame. Therefore your hierarchy is wrong, code.

Now speaking of your analogy. If you lose your soldiers you give weapons to those medics, officers etc and they can keep fighting. Look at what was going on in Eastern Europe during WW2 or Napoleon's invasion. Army left and was around Moscow. People were fighting still. But you are right, you definitely lose a war without supply. That's 100%. Soldiers can't fight if they are dead or have no weapons.

So, you definitely lose without supply. You def lose with no tanks/healers. Soldiers/DPS make it easier, but technically aren't needed. Who's the support role now? Exactly.

Also, vCOA is not endgame. It's no longer difficult. It's at the same level as other older veteran dungeons. Come back when he solos wgt or icp as a pure dps. Ah and even those are becoming easy with all this CP and new gear.

Also, everyone. WTF are you saying vMSA? What does S stand for? It's vMA if you have to abbreviate...

Destruent · April 2016

Artis wrote: »

I have played with some good DDs as a tank. I am currently not the worst DD myself. (DD? They call them DPS in the 21st century :P)

Tell you what, at the designed level cap you did need a tank in trials. Bosses did not hit like a wet noodle. Manticore and Serpent image, Warrior, Axes - all those things would oneshot a bad tank, let alone DPS.

The old trials can be tanked in medium armor, so no...they don't hit that hard...Even my manablade with low resistances and HP can tank those old trials without problems.

Artis wrote: »

It's not bad. If you say it's purpose is to give shelter. Then a group's purpose is to complete encounter. You can't complete it if everybody is dead. No, tanks and healers aren't support roles. They would be only if DPS could complete it without tanks/heals and those would simply make things easier. It's not the case in ESO's endgame. Therefore your hierarchy is wrong, code.

Completing a trial is a more casual way of playing the game...in eso's endgame you are forced to complete it as fast as possible. So it's DPS>healing/tanking. You will want to sacrifice as much healing and tanking as possible if you can get some more DPS by doing this. It's not usefull to be as tanky as possible and it's not usefull to heal as much as possible, but it's usefull to do as much damage as possible. Therefore you only try to heal/tank as much as neccessary and go dps/support otherwise as much as possible while tanking or healing.

AfkNinja · April 2016

LegendaryNinja wrote: »

Hi everyone, the direction I'm heading with this question is to point out that in the game there are skills and methods to do massive DPS but no build to counter this(Another DPS build does not count). Looking for a Healing or Tanking build that can have sustain defense against builds used in VetMSA. Is the game even built for this?

There is a build for Templar in pvp that accomplishes what you are asking. It's called the "Tankplar", "Healthplar" or "Trollplar".

1. Stack everything into HP and a little magic.
2. Cast Blazing shield and stack +shield strength CP.
3. Laugh as peons beat against your shield only to hurt themselves.

This build is an odd one cause you can't really kill anyone, you can just let them beat against your shield to die. If they run you're screwed.

Drawback: low stamina, low dmg and low magicka.

Reward: watching 3-6 people depending on your gear beating on you futilely.

code65536 · April 2016

Artis wrote: »

Now speaking of your analogy. If you lose your soldiers you give weapons to those medics, officers etc and they can keep fighting.

That's actually the point I'm making. The primary goal of combat is to kill, and thus the primary role is that of the killer. Yes, if you lose your dedicated killers (DPS), the support personnel can arm themselves and take on that role of killing. Which is exactly what vMA calls for: if your character is a tank or healer, you need to "arm yourself" and do damage in order to win. Just as, if your soldiers die in a war, the medics and cooks will have to take up arms if they want to keep going. And if a soldier has to fight it out alone, he'd want a medical kit with him to patch himself up, but his primary goal is still to kill the enemy.

At the end of the day, the primary goal is to kill. And that's the whole point of this. There are people who argue that vMA is unfair to tanks and healers because it's DPS-centric. And, yes, it is DPS-centric. But it's DPS-centric not because of a lack of imagination or because ZOS hates tanks and healers. It's DPS-centric because that's just the way combat is. If your medics, quartermasters, etc. were thrown into combat, you'd expect them to pick up a weapon and fight like a soldier instead of complaining, "I'm a doctor, not a redshirt."

Artis · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

I have played with some good DDs as a tank. I am currently not the worst DD myself. (DD? They call them DPS in the 21st century :P)

Tell you what, at the designed level cap you did need a tank in trials. Bosses did not hit like a wet noodle. Manticore and Serpent image, Warrior, Axes - all those things would oneshot a bad tank, let alone DPS.

The old trials can be tanked in medium armor, so no...they don't hit that hard...Even my manablade with low resistances and HP can tank those old trials without problems.

Artis wrote: »

It's not bad. If you say it's purpose is to give shelter. Then a group's purpose is to complete encounter. You can't complete it if everybody is dead. No, tanks and healers aren't support roles. They would be only if DPS could complete it without tanks/heals and those would simply make things easier. It's not the case in ESO's endgame. Therefore your hierarchy is wrong, code.

Completing a trial is a more casual way of playing the game...in eso's endgame you are forced to complete it as fast as possible. So it's DPS>healing/tanking. You will want to sacrifice as much healing and tanking as possible if you can get some more DPS by doing this. It's not usefull to be as tanky as possible and it's not usefull to heal as much as possible, but it's usefull to do as much damage as possible. Therefore you only try to heal/tank as much as neccessary and go dps/support otherwise as much as possible while tanking or healing.

In wow they called you children of pandaria. Did you just join the game or something? Please tell me more how you could tank trials in medium armor when they were at the designed difficulty. Full heavy tanks could be oneshotted in any of the fights I listed if they didn't manage resources properly and couldn't block/dodge when needed. Are you *** serious? "These old trials"?? Didn't I specifically said about tanking them when they were at the designed level cap? HRC/AA at v12, SO at v14.
Please, if you argue with people at least have decency to read what they write carefully.

Completing a trial is a more casual way of playing the game...in eso's endgame you are forced to complete it as fast as possible. So it's DPS>healing/tanking. You will want to sacrifice as much healing and tanking as possible if you can get some more DPS by doing this. It's not usefull to be as tanky as possible and it's not usefull to heal as much as possible, but it's usefull to do as much damage as possible. Therefore you only try to heal/tank as much as neccessary and go dps/support otherwise as much as possible while tanking or healing.

And once again - you are talking about trials that are out of date. Please tell me how it's casual to complete VMOL, which is the only trial designed for the current level cap. If you open NA leaderboards you will see that precisely 0 groups completed. So it's too early to talk about speed. Same was in times of SO. Only few group could complete it.

In conclusion, I am pretty sure you didn't understand me at all. Of course, it is mostly because English is not my native language, but I think you should reread my comments again and realize that I was talking about fights when they were up to date!

code65536 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Now speaking of your analogy. If you lose your soldiers you give weapons to those medics, officers etc and they can keep fighting.

That's actually the point I'm making. The primary goal of combat is to kill, and thus the primary role is that of the killer. Yes, if you lose your dedicated killers (DPS), the support personnel can arm themselves and take on that role of killing. Which is exactly what vMA calls for: if your character is a tank or healer, you need to "arm yourself" and do damage in order to win. Just as, if your soldiers die in a war, the medics and cooks will have to take up arms if they want to keep going. And if a soldier has to fight it out alone, he'd want a medical kit with him to patch himself up, but his primary goal is still to kill the enemy.

No, it's not. The thing is, if you give medic a gun - he will still be medic, medic with a gun. So he can heal and deal SOME damage. Your soldier can't do *** except for shooting. Therefore generals would send millions of soldiers to die but would make sure medics and others wouldn't have so much losses.

The point here is that all roles are equally important at least (but technically dps is the least important one. Everyone can dps and there's no enrage in many fights. Once again - I saw many times how tanks would finish fights when others die. DPS can't do that).

At the end of the day, the primary goal is to kill. And that's the whole point of this. There are people who argue that vMA is unfair to tanks and healers because it's DPS-centric. And, yes, it is DPS-centric. But it's DPS-centric not because of a lack of imagination or because ZOS hates tanks and healers. It's DPS-centric because that's just the way combat is. If your medics, quartermasters, etc. were thrown into combat, you'd expect them to pick up a weapon and fight like a soldier instead of complaining, "I'm a doctor, not a redshirt."

This is completely wrong without the context. You can't kill if you're dead yourself. Therefore the primary goal is to survive! And deal some dps so that an enemy dies first. But the primary goal is to survive.
It's DPS-centric only for you and only because you think it is. It actually is not DPS-centric. Survivability comes first. You have to survive. you just have to. And people who argue it's unfair to tanks/healers are wrong. Pure DPS can't complete it too, because they can't survive. So it's unfair to every role => it's not unfair at all

See explanation below.

If you have *** DPS - you can still complete most fights because tank and healer can maintain the fight as long as they want if they are good. At the end of the day you need to deal a certain amount of total damage, not reach a certain DPS. Damage=DPS*time. Good tank/heals can increase time as much as needed to make up for low dps.

If you have *** tank/heals your time->0. Almost no DPS can make up for that.

A simple model is DPS*time = C, where C depends on the fight.If there's no enrage, time can be increased for arbitrarily low DPS by good tank/heals. If tank and healer suck - then your dps won't do ***.

Therefore, surviving is the primary goal, IF one had to pick one of them to be primary. The truth is - both surviveability and dps are important and have to be balanced so that DPS*time >=C.

The previous paragraph is a period in this discussion. Look how your "Tanks and healers are support roles. The DPS is always the main role." makes very little sense if you consider the problem logically.

Destruent · April 2016

Sry mate...but our tankbuilds/healbuilds are completely focused on supporting the DDs. Some Bosse have an enrage so you need as much dps as possible to cover mistakes. It also makes the runs a lot easier when you have some more DPS.
Our tanks support the DDs and healers, our healers support the DDs and tanks, but non of our DDs support heal/tanks...

As i said already...as much DPS as possible but only as much tankiness/healing as neccessary. So tanks and healers are easily able to build for support or even off-DPS. So yes, it's all focused on DPS, but all 3 roles are neccessary.

have you ever been in the new trial? First Boss will wreck you with only tanks and healers in your group. Surviving isn't that hard, it's more about avoiding the harder bossmechanics through dps.

But anyways...just show me an example of a fight, where tank/healers cannot do any support bc their mainrole is too hard/important and we can end this discussion.

rokrdt05 · April 2016

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

LOL.

Foundation and walls are support elements.

The furniture is always the main thing.

The goal of any house is for people to comfortably live there. They can't sit on foundation or walls. This is why furniture is apriori the main thing. In a house, foundation and walls are there only to keep furniture inside while it's there for people to use.

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

You should post a video some time. Kinda hard to imagine how that group build can take all the damage from archers and such.

That's funny, because I've seen multiple times tanks/healers dying and solo DPS finish the fight. I've done this plenty of times. The point that @code65536 was trying to make is you can't simply be tanky/healy if you are wanting to accomplish vMA or what have you. Also, your counter to his argument was childish at best. Offering an opinion is one thing, making fun of is another.

Destruent · April 2016

rokrdt05 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

LOL.

Foundation and walls are support elements.

The furniture is always the main thing.

The goal of any house is for people to comfortably live there. They can't sit on foundation or walls. This is why furniture is apriori the main thing. In a house, foundation and walls are there only to keep furniture inside while it's there for people to use.

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

You should post a video some time. Kinda hard to imagine how that group build can take all the damage from archers and such.

That's funny, because I've seen multiple times tanks/healers dying and solo DPS finish the fight. I've done this plenty of times. The point that @code65536 was trying to make is you can't simply be tanky/healy if you are wanting to accomplish vMA or what have you. Also, your counter to his argument was childish at best. Offering an opinion is one thing, making fun of is another.

I even posted a video with 2 DPS finishing a vet-dungeon, but he didn't accept it...

X3ina · April 2016

To OP, just stack as much impenetrable trait on your gear as possible + its better to have purge and radiant magelight on your bar and any self heal or shield. All this builds are focused in highest burst achievable so impen will mitigate most of the incoming damage.

To @Artis, i dunno what game are u playing but tanks and healers in your group is a dps loss. Any group that could complete the existing endgame content without them would get the highest score achievable. But due to "dead dd -> zero dps" they have to recruit roles to support themselves (to feel more comfortable if u wish) like healers and tanks.
About your thoughts on "army" analogy, i hope u do know that even 1 trained person can kill alot of people with lack of reaction, skills, proper education. Simple ex. hollywood blockbusters or bad ex. terrorists (i know second one is really bad but its life).
Positive analogy from me: Restaurant. Example - i can cook by myself but i went to cafe (me - main role that can do supportive role but i'll loose my time etc.) waiter (garson/waiter - pure support because i can tell chief/cook what i want by myself and can bring prepared food by myself also) chief/cook (pure support used to win some time/effort that can be used in other way). This kinda analogy is things that u do every day to save time for your family such as any kind of transportation etc

To @Praeficere, with build concept focuced on taking as much damage possible - standing in a frigid cold water surrounded by boss and trashmobs is 100% equal to dps race.

Artis · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Sry mate...but our tankbuilds/healbuilds are completely focused on supporting the DDs. Some Bosse have an enrage so you need as much dps as possible to cover mistakes. It also makes the runs a lot easier when you have some more DPS.
Our tanks support the DDs and healers, our healers support the DDs and tanks, but non of our DDs support heal/tanks...

As i said already...as much DPS as possible but only as much tankiness/healing as neccessary. So tanks and healers are easily able to build for support or even off-DPS. So yes, it's all focused on DPS, but all 3 roles are neccessary.

have you ever been in the new trial? First Boss will wreck you with only tanks and healers in your group. Surviving isn't that hard, it's more about avoiding the harder bossmechanics through dps.

But anyways...just show me an example of a fight, where tank/healers cannot do any support bc their mainrole is too hard/important and we can end this discussion.

Most up-to-date endgame bosses. Starting with AA axes and vet DSA when it was just released. There's nothing to talk about. I already wrote down all math for you. No, it's not focused on DPS. Yes all 3 roles are necessary and that was my point.
Most bosses don't have enrage in 4man dungeons. And, I repeat for the 3rd time, before all this CP nonsense and even after but before people got lots of CP, group that consisted from tanks/healers only would complete those dungeons whereas a DPS only group wouldn't. Saw it many times when a tank could solo fights and DPS couldn't. So yeah, back when dungeons where balanced, tanks/heals were more important. You would never carry a *** tank or at the very least it would be extremely painful. Carrying a bad dps, on the other hand, would simply take time.

Oh? Surviving isn't that hard? Come back after you tank vmol in medium armor.

rokrdt05 wrote: »

That's funny, because I've seen multiple times tanks/healers dying and solo DPS finish the fight. I've done this plenty of times. The point that @code65536 was trying to make is you can't simply be tanky/healy if you are wanting to accomplish vMA or what have you. Also, your counter to his argument was childish at best. Offering an opinion is one thing, making fun of is another.

Nah, that didn't happen in 2014. Most dps couldn't do it in 2015 as well. Now after they changed the system and pve is unbalanced - obviously it's way easier. The point that code was trying to make is that "DPS is the main role" (c), which is what I was arguing with. It's not. You can't complete vma as a pure tank/heal just like you will be having troubles as a pure dps. I've been always saying this starting right after release when people were complaining about not being able to complete with their pve healer build.
My counter involved math and wasn't childish in any way.

Destruent wrote: »

rokrdt05 wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

LOL.

Foundation and walls are support elements.

The furniture is always the main thing.

The goal of any house is for people to comfortably live there. They can't sit on foundation or walls. This is why furniture is apriori the main thing. In a house, foundation and walls are there only to keep furniture inside while it's there for people to use.

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

You should post a video some time. Kinda hard to imagine how that group build can take all the damage from archers and such.

That's funny, because I've seen multiple times tanks/healers dying and solo DPS finish the fight. I've done this plenty of times. The point that @code65536 was trying to make is you can't simply be tanky/healy if you are wanting to accomplish vMA or what have you. Also, your counter to his argument was childish at best. Offering an opinion is one thing, making fun of is another.

I even posted a video with 2 DPS finishing a vet-dungeon, but he didn't accept it...

You also said that you can tank trials in medium or light armor. Dude, just stahp. You still didnt' get it that I'm not talking about outdated content? Everyone can solo a vet dungeon after CP and buff system were introduced.

Why don't you post a video how a 12man raid clears delves or anchors in Glenumbra?

X3ina wrote: »

To OP, just stack as much impenetrable trait on your gear as possible + its better to have purge and radiant magelight on your bar and any self heal or shield. All this builds are focused in highest burst achievable so impen will mitigate most of the incoming damage.

To @Artis, i dunno what game are u playing but tanks and healers in your group is a dps loss. Any group that could complete the existing endgame content without them would get the highest score achievable. But due to "dead dd -> zero dps" they have to recruit roles to support themselves (to feel more comfortable if u wish) like healers and tanks.
About your thoughts on "army" analogy, i hope u do know that even 1 trained person can kill alot of people with lack of reaction, skills, proper education. Simple ex. hollywood blockbusters or bad ex. terrorists (i know second one is really bad but its life).
Positive analogy from me: Restaurant. Example - i can cook by myself but i went to cafe (me - main role that can do supportive role but i'll loose my time etc.) waiter (garson/waiter - pure support because i can tell chief/cook what i want by myself and can bring prepared food by myself also) chief/cook (pure support used to win some time/effort that can be used in other way). This kinda analogy is things that u do every day to save time for your family such as any kind of transportation etc

To @Praeficere, with build concept focuced on taking as much damage possible - standing in a frigid cold water surrounded by boss and trashmobs is 100% equal to dps race.

Ugh, one more... Read what I'm saying. I was talking about endgame content. Right now all endgame content you have is vMOL and almost no one can complete it (no one in NA so far at least). So you can't talk about higher scores now when most guilds are still progressing. And most aren't dying just because their dps is low.
Of course you don't need tanks/heals in outdated old trials and vdsa. They aren't balanced for V16 with lots of CP, so you can neglect that damage and just kill things fast.

Oh yeah, hollywood blockbuster is a good example though lol? please.
Analogy is when all relationships between objects are the same as in original. That thing with a restaurant is not an analogy. Maybe it is when you're talking about old content?

I'll repeat it again, I am not talking about old content that wasn't balanced for how powerful our characters are right now.

Destruent · April 2016

Artis wrote: »

Ugh, one more... Read what I'm saying. I was talking about endgame content. Right now all endgame content you have is vMOL and almost no one can complete it (no one in NA so far at least). So you can't talk about higher scores now when most guilds are still progressing. And most aren't dying just because their dps is low.
Of course you don't need tanks/heals in outdated old trials and vdsa. They aren't balanced for V16 with lots of CP, so you can neglect that damage and just kill things fast.

Oh yeah, hollywood blockbuster is a good example though lol? please.
Analogy is when all relationships between objects are the same as in original. That thing with a restaurant is not an analogy. Maybe it is when you're talking about old content?

I'll repeat it again, I am not talking about old content that wasn't balanced for how powerful our characters are right now.

Ok...talk about vMoL.
Tanks: Taunting bosses/adds and supporting the group
Helaers: healing and supporting the group
DDs: Dpsing as much as possible

So everyone is focussed on improving group-dps....it's not that different from the old raids. Maybe your healers are running around with remembrance und DKs using corrisive armor/magma shell, but in most groups they use aggressive warhorn to push group-DPS. Our healers are even off-dpsing...

You will NEVER try to maximise group-tankiness or healing output, but you will try to maximize dps-output everytime you do any content in this game.

BTW: 2 NA Raidgroups have already finished vMoL. On PC/EU there are actually 3 groups farming vMoL. So yes, atm we can talk about completion-times and therefore maximizing DPS.

Artis · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Ugh, one more... Read what I'm saying. I was talking about endgame content. Right now all endgame content you have is vMOL and almost no one can complete it (no one in NA so far at least). So you can't talk about higher scores now when most guilds are still progressing. And most aren't dying just because their dps is low.
Of course you don't need tanks/heals in outdated old trials and vdsa. They aren't balanced for V16 with lots of CP, so you can neglect that damage and just kill things fast.

Oh yeah, hollywood blockbuster is a good example though lol? please.
Analogy is when all relationships between objects are the same as in original. That thing with a restaurant is not an analogy. Maybe it is when you're talking about old content?

I'll repeat it again, I am not talking about old content that wasn't balanced for how powerful our characters are right now.

Ok...talk about vMoL.
Tanks: Taunting bosses/adds and supporting the group
Helaers: healing and supporting the group
DDs: Dpsing as much as possible

So everyone is focussed on improving group-dps....it's not that different from the old raids. Maybe your healers are running around with remembrance und DKs using corrisive armor/magma shell, but in most groups they use aggressive warhorn to push group-DPS. Our healers are even off-dpsing...

You will NEVER try to maximise group-tankiness or healing output, but you will try to maximize dps-output everytime you do any content in this game.

BTW: 2 NA Raidgroups have already finished vMoL. On PC/EU there are actually 3 groups farming vMoL. So yes, atm we can talk about completion-times and therefore maximizing DPS.

Last time I checked the leaderboard was empty. Now there's 1 group. No idea where you found 2 groups. (Maybe you're from the future and all content is outdated in your time.) So, 0.00001% or something of players. Yes, they will now increase their score. Others still need to at least get a clear. No clue what you're arguing about. Are you getting carried all the time and don't know how progress goes?

Yes you will increase tankiness IF the group is dying. Of course tanks will use warhorn. Not only it increases dps but also tankiness and heals duh. But yeah, some tanks (or heals or assigned dps) might use veil or nova. Rarely you just have everyone using DPS ult and ignoring mitigation (nova/veil). And that is direct increase of group's tankiness. No you won't maximize tankiness if it's not needed. You will increase it until your each the value you need. You will not maximize DPS at the tankiness's expense if that means lowering tankiness below the needed threshold. Uhm, just like you won't build foundation more massive/deep than needed to carry the projected building. But that definitely doesn't mean that walls or whatever is inside is the "main" thing compared to foundation.

Also, you talk about completion times when you farm the dungeon and have 0 deaths to get all the vitality bonus you can. You won't let people increase DPS to win a few seconds or minutes if it leads to deaths that are worth 1000 points each.

Destruent · April 2016

Artis wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Ugh, one more... Read what I'm saying. I was talking about endgame content. Right now all endgame content you have is vMOL and almost no one can complete it (no one in NA so far at least). So you can't talk about higher scores now when most guilds are still progressing. And most aren't dying just because their dps is low.
Of course you don't need tanks/heals in outdated old trials and vdsa. They aren't balanced for V16 with lots of CP, so you can neglect that damage and just kill things fast.

Oh yeah, hollywood blockbuster is a good example though lol? please.
Analogy is when all relationships between objects are the same as in original. That thing with a restaurant is not an analogy. Maybe it is when you're talking about old content?

I'll repeat it again, I am not talking about old content that wasn't balanced for how powerful our characters are right now.

Ok...talk about vMoL.
Tanks: Taunting bosses/adds and supporting the group
Helaers: healing and supporting the group
DDs: Dpsing as much as possible

So everyone is focussed on improving group-dps....it's not that different from the old raids. Maybe your healers are running around with remembrance und DKs using corrisive armor/magma shell, but in most groups they use aggressive warhorn to push group-DPS. Our healers are even off-dpsing...

You will NEVER try to maximise group-tankiness or healing output, but you will try to maximize dps-output everytime you do any content in this game.

BTW: 2 NA Raidgroups have already finished vMoL. On PC/EU there are actually 3 groups farming vMoL. So yes, atm we can talk about completion-times and therefore maximizing DPS.

Last time I checked the leaderboard was empty. Now there's 1 group. No idea where you found 2 groups. (Maybe you're from the future and all content is outdated in your time.) So, 0.00001% or something of players. Yes, they will now increase their score. Others still need to at least get a clear. No clue what you're arguing about. Are you getting carried all the time and don't know how progress goes?

Yes you will increase tankiness IF the group is dying. Of course tanks will use warhorn. Not only it increases dps but also tankiness and heals duh. But yeah, some tanks (or heals or assigned dps) might use veil or nova. Rarely you just have everyone using DPS ult and ignoring mitigation (nova/veil). And that is direct increase of group's tankiness. No you won't maximize tankiness if it's not needed. You will increase it until your each the value you need. You will not maximize DPS at the tankiness's expense if that means lowering tankiness below the needed threshold. Uhm, just like you won't build foundation more massive/deep than needed to carry the projected building. But that definitely doesn't mean that walls or whatever is inside is the "main" thing compared to foundation.

Also, you talk about completion times when you farm the dungeon and have 0 deaths to get all the vitality bonus you can. You won't let people increase DPS to win a few seconds or minutes if it leads to deaths that are worth 1000 points each.

The second guild is on X-Box. You also acknowledged my point, but it seems you haven't noticed

Destruent wrote: »

As i said already...as much DPS as possible but only as much tankiness/healing as neccessary. So tanks and healers are easily able to build for support or even off-DPS. So yes, it's all focused on DPS, but all 3 roles are neccessary.

Artis wrote: »

No you won't maximize tankiness if it's not needed. You will increase it until your each the value you need.

andy_s · April 2016

Regarding this tanks & healers vs dps discussion...

Just wanted to note, that there is always a group dps threshhold when you don't need tanks to do their best to survive and healers to spam breath of life like there is no tomorrow.

Before this threshhold, tanks and healers are the most important roles to keep every one alive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjh-CXOZPrg

But after...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BfHX_fhzXA

jzholloway · April 2016

Can't we all just get along?? I'll be honest - I didn't read the last 6 or 7 comments... but, here is my take on tanks, healers and dps - support vs. main.

Yes, a DPS is necessary - he or she is the one doing the majority of the damage, or as @code65536 said, the one killing stuff. Yes, tanks and healers offer support in the sense of that the tank taunts and holds aggro, the healer heals - and yes, both are capable of dealing some damage themselves (ironically healers probably more then most tanks). Personally, I hate the term "main" and "support" because the whole purpose of the "trinity" in MMO's is that all THREE are NEEDED, regardless of how good a DPS is, or how good a healer is, etc. Granted, since ESO has gone the way it has gone, old trials and dungeons haven't been updated per se, DPS is king in those encounters, simply because with good DPS you can burn most bosses and encounters. So in those arenas, a healer or a tank may not be necessary. However, as content continues to come out - i.e. vMoL, tanks and healers become more necessary - even in the old trials.

To go with the army mentality, I served five years in the United States Marine Corps - both in a "support" role and in a "fornt lines role," and the only difference is that one is not taking direct fire while the other is. The front lines simply cannot do their job without intelligence, supply, maintenance, etc. Yes, bodies in the front matter, but if there is no information, bullets, band-aids, food, or working gear, they become useless. So in effect, this analogy, does not work either. Support, in this case, is actually MORE important then front lines. Also - the point of war is not necessarily to kill people, but to win, and to do so in the least expensive way possible - both with lives and money. So again, the analogy falls short.

I'm main a tank - I have no allusions about my damage dealing capabilities, but without my taunts, mitigations, buffs and debuffs, the boss encounters last a lot longer - in other words, I help improve and increase the actually DPS of those dealing damage. Likewise, the healers heal, buff, and debuff - popping damage in when they can. Yes, that can be seen as support, but it goes beyond that simple definition. As a tank, I don't take offense to the word or role classification as support, I just think it is a little misguided - maybe a lot of people have had *** tanks who don't know how to do more then taunt and block - likewise with healers, maybe you have had *** ones of those who just heal, I don't know. I do know I can run three DPS in dungeons with a healer versus running two DPS with a tank and healer in the same dungeon, and the dungeon goes a lot smoother, and ironically faster, with the tank, healer and two DPS (obviously depends on the dungeon.)

In regards to PvP and vMA (or MA in general) - yes, it would be nice if ZOS could implement something for pure tanks in PvP other then just standing there and surviving against a horde of the enemy. Again, with the right setup, some damage is possible, but rarely 100% deadly by yourself (same as in a dungeon). With MA, it would be nice if DPS or healers got some sort of "trial" specifically for their play style in their purest forms, but we all know DPS "rules," and I honestly don't know how something like that could be implemented. It would definitely be a nice gesture as well as test for those of us who prefer to tank to heal rather then DPS.

Anyways, we will always have those who don't need any "support" or help, MA has done nothing but further encourage tat attitude.

Artis · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

The second guild is on X-Box. You also acknowledged my point, but it seems you haven't noticed

Nah, it's you who acknowledged mine. DPS is not "the main" role, that's the point. You balance DPS*time=total damage. You won't ditch mitigation just to increase DPS. You will increase DPS only after you're tanky enough! That enough can be lower if your dps is high enough to ignore some mechanics. You have already seen this. In outdated content things just die to fast to worry about, for example, aoe that you get before you break the shield because you break it very fast, or about tanking multiple hard hitting adds because they die too fast or because they don't have time to spawn etc.

I mean, remember how vDSA was pre-1.5 and look at it now lol.

andy.s wrote: »

Before this threshhold, tanks and healers are the most important roles to keep every one alive:

Spasibo, comrade, that's what I'm trying to say.

And FFS why vMSA??

Shadesofkin · April 2016

I tried several tank style builds, but at the end of the day the balance of Damage and Resistance *needs* to favor damage, so I focused there instead.