Taunting, why is that a thing?

Miszou · April 2016

I haven't noticed this much in ESO, but in Tera there was a definite "highest threat" measurement that bosses used.

Overhealing is a very real issue in Tera, because it would generate tons of aggro onto the healer. Same with dealing too much damage too quickly. The tank could lose control of the boss in seconds if the boss perceived a higher threat.

Tera still uses the Trinity design (for all the reasons mentioned above), but bosses were a lot less stuck on the tank - meaning that the tank really had to work hard to maintain aggro - especially with a group of high-DPS or an over-zealous healer. Much more interesting than the "QQ can't permablock and regen stamina, tanking sucks" meta that ESO has.

That said, I still love tanking, even here.

Shunravi · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

I haven't noticed this much in ESO, but in Tera there was a definite "highest threat" measurement that bosses used.

Overhealing is a very real issue in Tera, because it would generate tons of aggro onto the healer. Same with dealing too much damage too quickly. The tank could lose control of the boss in seconds if the boss perceived a higher threat.

Tera still uses the Trinity design (for all the reasons mentioned above), but bosses were a lot less stuck on the tank - meaning that the tank really had to work hard to maintain aggro - especially with a group of high-DPS or an over-zealous healer. Much more interesting than the "QQ can't permablock and regen stamina, tanking sucks" meta that ESO has.

That said, I still love tanking, even here.

Well, thats more or less classic mmo agro management. Its fairly standard fare that if the teams numbers are pushing to high, there is a real chance of the boss targeting them. In WoW for instance, you hear tanks talk about fighting tooth and nail for agro against high dps.

Svalinn · April 2016

Well i have a vet 16 tank and.. "trinity" i this game even if it's a fact isn't as standard as in other games.

Let me make an example while in a lot of games what a tank has to do is spam taunts on the boss then stay still keeping the aggro, in here there are many bosses that are just "not tauntable", togheter with random target skills and such.

What does it means? it means that you have to be "smart" and know the bosses traits in order to use your "role" correctly.

For example a tank that's all about "aggroing the entire room and then stand still itigating damage" is not a thing in this game... there are boss battles where the tank role is actually to be carefull and watch out for spawns in order to aggro the spawns and take them away from a non tauntable boss while the DPS single handadly take care of the boss

Just to make another example.. if you want to obtain the engine guardian helmet the fight goes like this as far as a tank is concerned:

you need to have a bow for some VERY LOW damage on the boss most of the time.. the boss will attack in patterns completely ignoring every possible taunt attempt. Some dwemer enemies will spawn from time to time.. tank there has to switch to shield and weapon trying to taunt those adds as fast as possible giving time for the DPS to kill them and then go back to the boss... easy said very hard to do for a lot of people.. expecially since ALL has to be made while everyone try to avoid the bosses AOE attacks at the same time.

Other fights were you actually tank the boss you need to carefully think about your positioning, keeping aggro every 15 seconds and at the same time move around in order to don't be into nasty aoe attacks that even paralise you or not going into dps/healer line of sight preevnting their damage.

"trinity" when done "smartly" is a good thing and higly gives value to a player skill.

Without the trinity everything would be just.. move around aimlessly, everyone on his own., trying to do the most individual damage to the boss no matter what boss/fight mechanic is in act... i don't see the last one as a good thing.

Miszou · April 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I haven't noticed this much in ESO, but in Tera there was a definite "highest threat" measurement that bosses used.

Overhealing is a very real issue in Tera, because it would generate tons of aggro onto the healer. Same with dealing too much damage too quickly. The tank could lose control of the boss in seconds if the boss perceived a higher threat.

Tera still uses the Trinity design (for all the reasons mentioned above), but bosses were a lot less stuck on the tank - meaning that the tank really had to work hard to maintain aggro - especially with a group of high-DPS or an over-zealous healer. Much more interesting than the "QQ can't permablock and regen stamina, tanking sucks" meta that ESO has.

That said, I still love tanking, even here.

Well, thats more or less classic mmo agro management. Its fairly standard fare that if the teams numbers are pushing to high, there is a real chance of the boss targeting them. In WoW for instance, you hear tanks talk about fighting tooth and nail for agro against high dps.

Ah, ok. I didn't know that.

I've only really ever played "action combat" MMO's (such as Tera, ESO, DragonNest, GW2 etc), so I may have missed out on a lot of stuff that's old news to other people.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

A smart AI would target the healer because once dead then take out the DD and then the tank once he has no heals or back up. that would not be a fun dungeon or very fun depending on how you look at it.

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Or the healer could push and snare the AI to get them off.
Or the DPS could move,gap-close and pummel the AI unfettered, as they have no fear of attack (when the healers focused) and make rather short work of the job.

I say make the AI as smart as you want.
Just make sure the players have the proper tools for their job too.

The AI need to be smart enough to break free of tanks.
The AI need to be smart enough to take out the healers.
The AI need to be smart enough to avoid being outgunned.
The players need to be smart enough to realise the AI cant do it all at the same time.
Tanks need a long range single target pull and a short range aoe pull
And then an aoe root to go with it
Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Svalinn · April 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Uhm.... why do i find a clear contradiction in these two statements?

Muizer · April 2016

I think I'd rather see the typical heavy armoured knight attracting the bosses because they are the main damage dealers rather than damage sponges with taunts. That, in any case, would make for a proper knight, that, incidentally, could also be made viable in PvP.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Uhm.... why do i find a clear contradiction in these two statements?

Contradiction ? Not to me....

A taunt is to interrupt and request engagement.
It gives the AI a choice on wether it actually wants to do that or not if it is smart.

A pull and root gives the AI no choice as to wether it want to engage the tank or not.
The tank can do his job controlling the field of battle, relieveing the dps and healer of agro.

Like PvP the DPS will go for the healer.
I as a tank will pull and root the DPS....again and again.
The DPS cant take out the healer as I am stoppping him.
He has no choice but to take out the tank to get to the healer.

The DPS gap closes the ranged attack.
I pull and root the DPS off the ranged attack....
I become the biggest pain in the arse on the battelfield
If you want to take control your only option is to take out the tank rather than avoid it.

How do you take out the tank when the healer is up ?
How long will you survive against the tank if the ranged is up ?

LadyNalcarya · April 2016

Muizer wrote: »

I think I'd rather see the typical heavy armoured knight attracting the bosses because they are the main damage dealers rather than damage sponges with taunts. That, in any case, would make for a proper knight, that, incidentally, could also be made viable in PvP.

Then why anyone would play any other dd classes and types?
Every playing the same op build = boring. Atm theres at least a few of those, but if there will be a super build with insane survivability and insane damage, all other types will be excluded.

Magdalina · April 2016

Muizer wrote: »

Indeed. You can rephrase my question as "why are people so hung up on trinity roles that they are prepared to dumb down the AI to give those roles a reason to exist". I don't get that.

Um...I must say this is my first MMO so I don't know much about "holy trinity" overall, but it seems to me it's about...teamwork? There're mechanics everyone has to follow to stay alive, there's a "stronger" person responsible for shielding others from danger and one responsible for healing their wounds when/if they do get hurt. And the people who actually damage the boss, often sacrificing their own surviveability in order to do that most efficiently. And to achieve best results, those people have to work together and find the right balance between damage/surviveability/healing etc(ideally, lately a lot of it has been dumbed down to "...or all 4 can just dps and burn everything down before any mechanics happen"). I kind of like it.

I'm not entirely sure how it would work without the taunt, seems like it'd have to be each-for-himself kind of thing. Basically everyone'd have to be dps with some defensive and self healing capabilities. But then, what is the point of a team when everyone is basically on their own?
If you really want to try that, run something like WGT with 4 dps

It is doable and very fun(Kena is the absolute best part

I loved the part where she was running around 1shotting everyone, then ended up distracted with Twilight and I ressed all those noobs xD (as a sorc with ~15k health), no sarcasm, was fun but not something I'd like to do every run).

EDIT: I also think there're plenty of really fun mechanics in this game. When ZOS turns their attention away from Crown Store they're obviously capable of some really awesome things, such as Mantikora fight for example, I don't really see it as "dumbing down AI". Furthermore, to allow for no tank they would have to dumb down existing mechanics - aforementioned Manti'd have to hit like 10 times weaker or he's just gonna run around 1shotting everyone, but then...it's kind of part of the fun when your tank dies or loses agro and Manti comes gives you a sudden pat of love for 60k damage

I'd miss that.

Sleep · April 2016

If you want to change that, it requires a lot of work and I don't think ZoS can do it right, or players would like it. Just go play some other MMOs. In fact if you want to play with elitist groups, you don't need a tank or healer, no one gets one shot, everyone bring self heals.

Svalinn · April 2016

Well at this point i'd just take away the taunts as we have now.. take back the "oratory" skill line like the one in oblivion and add a "insult" skill that taunts enemies with a brain and an understanding for words.. so humans, argonians, EXPECIALLY orcs, etc... and make enemies like machines not tauntable and with different fight mechanics xD

It would even have sense lore-wise xD

Muizer · April 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I think I'd rather see the typical heavy armoured knight attracting the bosses because they are the main damage dealers rather than damage sponges with taunts. That, in any case, would make for a proper knight, that, incidentally, could also be made viable in PvP.

Then why anyone would play any other dd classes and types?
Every playing the same op build = boring. Atm theres at least a few of those, but if there will be a super build with insane survivability and insane damage, all other types will be excluded.

The damage would only have to be a little higher than ranged damage. The down side of such a build would of course be lower mobility and manoeuverability.

susmitds · April 2016

Tbh, it all depends on your style of tanking. ESO has a kind of build diversity no other contemporary game has. I, for example, have a Tank with 18k hp and medium armor with dps like stats. How I do it? I dodge every attack that is dodge-able and for the rest, I block. And thanks to my high stamina, weapon damage, and critical chance and damage, Rally+Vigor can heal me back to 100% from 5% hp in 1-3 secs. All I really do is dance on the bosses' face and pummel them at the same time. However, without a taunt, this diversity would be lost as far as character stats are concerned, my tank won't even be considered as one due to the fact that my stats reflect that of a damage dealer more than a Tank. As most of my tanking comes from my personal reaction times and skill, a taunt is really required.

Magdalina · April 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Tbh, it all depends on your style of tanking. ESO has a kind of build diversity no other contemporary game has. I, for example, have a Tank with 18k hp and medium armor with dps like stats. How I do it? I dodge every attack that is dodge-able and for the rest, I block. And thanks to my high stamina, weapon damage, and critical chance and damage, Rally+Vigor can heal me back to 100% from 5% hp in 1-3 secs. All I really do is dance on the bosses' face and pummel them at the same time. However, without a taunt, this diversity would be lost as far as character stats are concerned, my tank won't even be considered as one due to the fact that my stats reflect that of a damage dealer more than a Tank. As most of my tanking comes from my personal reaction times and skill, a taunt is really required.

That actually sounds fairly interesting. I'm curious now. How does that work against actually hard hitting stuff? Have you tried it against ICP first boss(Overfiend I think? Always forget his name)? Kena? Mantikora? 18k health seems like it'd leave you pretty open to 1shots.

LadyNalcarya · April 2016

Sleep wrote: »

In fact if you want to play with elitist groups, you don't need a tank or healer, no one gets one shot, everyone bring self heals.

Really?

phaneub17_ESO · April 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Sleep wrote: »

In fact if you want to play with elitist groups, you don't need a tank or healer, no one gets one shot, everyone bring self heals.

Really?

I have ended up in several normal and vet dungeon groups where the tank and healer were just DPS presumably within the same guild, they basically all rocked everything without needing to actually tank any trash or bosses. However these are organized players not your average random pug, they knew how to maximize their damage while taking as little as possible, they all had their own group heals making the use of a single dedicated healer obsolete.

You can't do this with everyone you find, they're badass when you do get them but not bountiful enough that you can rely on groups like these to show up. When you get the all random pug, you better rely on a real tank and healer unless you get a lucky with a random group of 4 that can act like the organized groups.

LadyNalcarya · April 2016

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Sleep wrote: »

In fact if you want to play with elitist groups, you don't need a tank or healer, no one gets one shot, everyone bring self heals.

Really?

I have ended up in several normal and vet dungeon groups where the tank and healer were just DPS presumably within the same guild, they basically all rocked everything without needing to actually tank any trash or bosses. However these are organized players not your average random pug, they knew how to maximize their damage while taking as little as possible, they all had their own group heals making the use of a single dedicated healer obsolete.

You can't do this with everyone you find, they're badass when you do get them but not bountiful enough that you can rely on groups like these to show up. When you get the all random pug, you better rely on a real tank and healer unless you get a lucky with a random group of 4 that can act like the organized groups.

Well, you see, Im playing with some of elite dds and good dds actually value good support.

It allows them to pull astonishing numbers after all, without running out of resources...
I did vICP and vWGT without a healer a couple of times (with my magblade and sorcs), and after every boss fight everyone was oom. XD Funny experience ofc, but its much better to have actual support.
Also I didnt notice that its faster with 4 dds. Kiting bosses and blocking = less dps. With high dps the difference is drastic.

Miszou · April 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Well, you would still need a taunt, in order to get the boss to attack you.

Otherwise, all you've done is move it around the battlefield and stuck it in place. There's nothing to stop it from just ignoring the tank, turning around and one-shotting the healer with a ranged attack.

clayandaudrey_ESO · April 2016

https://youtu.be/YX80M3e4zuU

Oompuh · April 2016

ESO is a game based on 2 things, Skills and passives. The only way to make agro feasible is active skills. Also, having agro be passive is not good either. I enjoy choosing who attacks me and who I let run around. Selecting targets is important. Taking active taunting out would kill the tank and also make fights like the manti impossible.

I love the trinity. I love having a DK tank, nb and sorcerer dps, and a Templar healer. It feels right, it feels authentic. It hurts me to see 4 sorcs blazing through dungeons. Content needs to punish, the best way to do that is with high damage, single target and aoe so you need a tank and a healer.

KEEP THE TRINITY ALIVE

Rune_Relic · April 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Well, you would still need a taunt, in order to get the boss to attack you.

Otherwise, all you've done is move it around the battlefield and stuck it in place. There's nothing to stop it from just ignoring the tank, turning around and one-shotting the healer with a ranged attack.

Depends if the ranged attack is interruptable I guess.
And some of the ranged attacks you wont stop anyway (taunt or not)...so they have to be avoided.

ShedsHisTail · April 2016

The AI in this game is actually pretty good. Taunting is simply a way of redirecting the mobs attention.
I mean, you can test it yourself. Grab three friends, run a scaled dungeon and don't use taunts; or the trinity set up. Sure, you might succeed, you're gonna have a much more difficult time.

When I played in beta and early on after release, there wasn't a lot of trinity grouping. I ran lots of dungeons with other dps hybrids. ZOS never really came out and said, "Hey guys, you're going to want a tank, a healer and a couple of dps." They were pretty steadfast in their play-the-way-you-want mindset and most group content was doable as long as you had four competent players in your group.

That trinity sort of just evolved into ESO because it works. It's less strenuous on everyone to manage mob agro and everyone take specialized roles. But you can still totally try it without if you're so against it.

susmitds · April 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Tbh, it all depends on your style of tanking. ESO has a kind of build diversity no other contemporary game has. I, for example, have a Tank with 18k hp and medium armor with dps like stats. How I do it? I dodge every attack that is dodge-able and for the rest, I block. And thanks to my high stamina, weapon damage, and critical chance and damage, Rally+Vigor can heal me back to 100% from 5% hp in 1-3 secs. All I really do is dance on the bosses' face and pummel them at the same time. However, without a taunt, this diversity would be lost as far as character stats are concerned, my tank won't even be considered as one due to the fact that my stats reflect that of a damage dealer more than a Tank. As most of my tanking comes from my personal reaction times and skill, a taunt is really required.

That actually sounds fairly interesting. I'm curious now. How does that work against actually hard hitting stuff? Have you tried it against ICP first boss(Overfiend I think? Always forget his name)? Kena? Mantikora? 18k health seems like it'd leave you pretty open to 1shots.

One-shots are pretty much my biggest trouble. However, from previous experiences and research on enemies, I can fairly remember the animations preceding some undodgeable one-shots, and cast Elusive Mist from the vampire skill line right in time to take the hit. 75% damage reduction effectively allows me to take the damage face on usually. The only trouble is when I get cc-ed right before, in which cases it becomes a gamble of whether I can break free and cast mist in time.

MasterSpatula · April 2016

I love attacks that generate threat. I hate the name taunting. What do you think I am, a French Knight?

ShedsHisTail · April 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Uhm.... why do i find a clear contradiction in these two statements?

Contradiction ? Not to me....

A taunt is to interrupt and request engagement.
It gives the AI a choice on wether it actually wants to do that or not if it is smart.

A pull and root gives the AI no choice as to wether it want to engage the tank or not.
The tank can do his job controlling the field of battle, relieveing the dps and healer of agro.

You're using a different word, "root" instead of "taunt" but it's functionally the same. You're forcing the mob, regardless of AI smarts, to attack the tank. You're effectively overpowering the AI with a utility skill; which is exactly what "taunt" does.

Woeler · April 2016

Please no.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Uhm.... why do i find a clear contradiction in these two statements?

Contradiction ? Not to me....

A taunt is to interrupt and request engagement.
It gives the AI a choice on wether it actually wants to do that or not if it is smart.

A pull and root gives the AI no choice as to wether it want to engage the tank or not.
The tank can do his job controlling the field of battle, relieveing the dps and healer of agro.

You're using a different word, "root" instead of "taunt" but it's functionally the same. You're forcing the mob, regardless of AI smarts, to attack the tank. You're effectively overpowering the AI with a utility skill; which is exactly what "taunt" does.

Well.....if you want to look at it that way then I guess so.
Personally I see one as optional control and one as compulsory control.

If I taunt a boss...he might or might not engage me...depending on AI.
He might just get on with his own specilist skills first and then come for me.
It really is upto ZOS how that Boss will react to any taunt at any moment.

Like if I attack a DPS in PvP...he might atack me back....or he might laugh and attack something else.

If I pull (literally chainpull) that boss and root it.....the AI doesnt get a choice in the matter.
It doesnt get to run after that healer and smash its face in.
Well....unless they make it unpullable and unrootable of course.

So to me they arent the same thing.
Whatever

Svalinn · April 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So to me they arent the same thing.
Whatever

Well then we might as well change the name of the topic since "taunts" in ESO works the exact way you say "roots" works for you.

You don't get an "aggro" meter on taunts.. the enemies you taunt are LITERALLY forced to attack you for 15 seconds unless they are "untauntable".

Exceptions of course are the "random target" skills they have.

Wifeaggro13 · April 2016

Muizer wrote: »

Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions. Conversely, giving the AI raw power to compensate for stupidity would be considered as a cheap cop-out. So why, in ESO, is it more important to warp the AI to suit trinity gameplay than to make the best AI possible?

Because your idea has been tried and fails miserably for group play. Not everyone wants to be a DPS