Taunting, why is that a thing?

ShedsHisTail

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Uhm.... why do i find a clear contradiction in these two statements?

Contradiction ? Not to me....

A taunt is to interrupt and request engagement.
It gives the AI a choice on wether it actually wants to do that or not if it is smart.

A pull and root gives the AI no choice as to wether it want to engage the tank or not.
The tank can do his job controlling the field of battle, relieveing the dps and healer of agro.

You're using a different word, "root" instead of "taunt" but it's functionally the same. You're forcing the mob, regardless of AI smarts, to attack the tank. You're effectively overpowering the AI with a utility skill; which is exactly what "taunt" does.

Well.....if you want to look at it that way then I guess so.
Personally I see one as optional control and one as compulsory control.

If I taunt a boss...he might or might not engage me...depending on AI.
He might just get on with his own specilist skills first and then come for me.
It really is upto ZOS how that Boss will react to any taunt at any moment.

Like if I attack a DPS in PvP...he might atack me back....or he might laugh and attack something else.

If I pull (literally chainpull) that boss and root it.....the AI doesnt get a choice in the matter.
It doesnt get to run after that healer and smash its face in.
Well....unless they make it unpullable and unrootable of course.

So to me they arent the same thing.
Whatever

Ah, I see... So want it to be even easier than it is now.

Oompuh

Another thing i want to say, I do think taunting is too simple. Over taunting was very interesting for me (Console, no timers) AND it punished bad tanks. If you overtaunted, the fight was over.

There also should be more taunts.. if there is an AOE taunt, make it an Ulti. Or something like fear but the other way (not taunt, but aoe pull) Class Taunts, Heavy armor taunts. SOMETHING. Put some life in taunting, instead of, I stab pr shout at you every 5 seconds and we're good

Rune_Relic

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So to me they arent the same thing.
Whatever

Well then we might as well change the name of the topic since "taunts" in ESO works the exact way you say "roots" works for you.

You don't get an "aggro" meter on taunts.. the enemies you taunt are LITERALLY forced to attack you for 15 seconds unless they are "untauntable".

Exceptions of course are the "random target" skills they have.

I thought we was trying to differentiate with an advanced AI and the removal of the 1h/s taunt skill ?
nvm.
We'll be arguing semantics all day at this rate.

Rune_Relic

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

And a smart tank would pull and root the AI away from said healer....while the DPS go to town on said AIs arse

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Then remove taunting......bring it on.

Uhm.... why do i find a clear contradiction in these two statements?

Contradiction ? Not to me....

A taunt is to interrupt and request engagement.
It gives the AI a choice on wether it actually wants to do that or not if it is smart.

A pull and root gives the AI no choice as to wether it want to engage the tank or not.
The tank can do his job controlling the field of battle, relieveing the dps and healer of agro.

You're using a different word, "root" instead of "taunt" but it's functionally the same. You're forcing the mob, regardless of AI smarts, to attack the tank. You're effectively overpowering the AI with a utility skill; which is exactly what "taunt" does.

Well.....if you want to look at it that way then I guess so.
Personally I see one as optional control and one as compulsory control.

If I taunt a boss...he might or might not engage me...depending on AI.
He might just get on with his own specilist skills first and then come for me.
It really is upto ZOS how that Boss will react to any taunt at any moment.

Like if I attack a DPS in PvP...he might atack me back....or he might laugh and attack something else.

If I pull (literally chainpull) that boss and root it.....the AI doesnt get a choice in the matter.
It doesnt get to run after that healer and smash its face in.
Well....unless they make it unpullable and unrootable of course.

So to me they arent the same thing.
Whatever

Ah, I see... So want it to be even easier than it is now.

Well as we are talking about a more advanced AI.....

Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation?

OPs initial post

Svalinn

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I thought we was trying to differentiate with an advanced AI and the removal of the 1h/s taunt skill ?
nvm.
We'll be arguing semantics all day at this rate.

Man... my comments to you are not aggressive by any means.. i'm sorry if they seems that way... i assure you i'm not "fighting" with you or anything.

All i'm doing is explaining one thing since you said that you were alright in removing taunts and then described a way to "attract" enemies that is the exact same way taunts works... so either i'm very stupid and don't get the point you wanted to make (can be possible... well not stupid but maybe i might have had too much "mead" :P) or you got confused in what you were saying?

Magdalina

susmitds wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Tbh, it all depends on your style of tanking. ESO has a kind of build diversity no other contemporary game has. I, for example, have a Tank with 18k hp and medium armor with dps like stats. How I do it? I dodge every attack that is dodge-able and for the rest, I block. And thanks to my high stamina, weapon damage, and critical chance and damage, Rally+Vigor can heal me back to 100% from 5% hp in 1-3 secs. All I really do is dance on the bosses' face and pummel them at the same time. However, without a taunt, this diversity would be lost as far as character stats are concerned, my tank won't even be considered as one due to the fact that my stats reflect that of a damage dealer more than a Tank. As most of my tanking comes from my personal reaction times and skill, a taunt is really required.

That actually sounds fairly interesting. I'm curious now. How does that work against actually hard hitting stuff? Have you tried it against ICP first boss(Overfiend I think? Always forget his name)? Kena? Mantikora? 18k health seems like it'd leave you pretty open to 1shots.

One-shots are pretty much my biggest trouble. However, from previous experiences and research on enemies, I can fairly remember the animations preceding some undodgeable one-shots, and cast Elusive Mist from the vampire skill line right in time to take the hit. 75% damage reduction effectively allows me to take the damage face on usually. The only trouble is when I get cc-ed right before, in which cases it becomes a gamble of whether I can break free and cast mist in time.

I'm assuming you're not tanking Trials like this

Sounds like you've put a fair bit of thought into it though. Good job. Need more interesting builds

Oompuh

susmitds wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Tbh, it all depends on your style of tanking. ESO has a kind of build diversity no other contemporary game has. I, for example, have a Tank with 18k hp and medium armor with dps like stats. How I do it? I dodge every attack that is dodge-able and for the rest, I block. And thanks to my high stamina, weapon damage, and critical chance and damage, Rally+Vigor can heal me back to 100% from 5% hp in 1-3 secs. All I really do is dance on the bosses' face and pummel them at the same time. However, without a taunt, this diversity would be lost as far as character stats are concerned, my tank won't even be considered as one due to the fact that my stats reflect that of a damage dealer more than a Tank. As most of my tanking comes from my personal reaction times and skill, a taunt is really required.

That actually sounds fairly interesting. I'm curious now. How does that work against actually hard hitting stuff? Have you tried it against ICP first boss(Overfiend I think? Always forget his name)? Kena? Mantikora? 18k health seems like it'd leave you pretty open to 1shots.

One-shots are pretty much my biggest trouble. However, from previous experiences and research on enemies, I can fairly remember the animations preceding some undodgeable one-shots, and cast Elusive Mist from the vampire skill line right in time to take the hit. 75% damage reduction effectively allows me to take the damage face on usually. The only trouble is when I get cc-ed right before, in which cases it becomes a gamble of whether I can break free and cast mist in time.

Have you ever tanked Manti or the Serpent?

Rune_Relic

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I thought we was trying to differentiate with an advanced AI and the removal of the 1h/s taunt skill ?
nvm.
We'll be arguing semantics all day at this rate.

Man... my comments to you are not aggressive by any means.. i'm sorry if they seems that way... i assure you i'm not "fighting" with you or anything.

All i'm doing is explaining one thing since you said that you were alright in removing taunts and then described a way to "attract" enemies that is the exact same way taunts works... so either i'm very stupid and don't get the point you wanted to make (can be possible... well not stupid but maybe i might have had too much "mead" :P) or you got confused in what you were saying?

We're probably completely confused about what both of us are saying
Sorry if I appear ratty. Its early morning here. Just a little tired.

The OP was talking about removing the taunt ability which i took to mean the 1h/s skill.
This was also based on making the AI much smarter in the terms of Agro.
If the AI was that much smarter making 1h/s taunt redundant anyway.
The healers and dps would probably be having a very very bad day.
It would still be the role of the tank to stop the healer and such from having a very very bad day.
So they would need to control said AI boss.

Hence using a manual and literal pull skill and a root skill instead of using the automated 1h/s taunt skill.
I would be happy for that particular skill to go as long as we had a manual pull+root.

A smart Ai isnt goign to make tanking any easier. Perhaps I completely misunderstand what the OP was getting at.

Taunting...why is it a thing.

Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions

Svalinn

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Hence using a manual and literal pull skill and a root skill instead of using the automated 1h/s taunt skill.
I would be happy for that particular skill to go as long as we had a manual pull+root.

Wait... maybe i'm starting to understand what you mean... you mean a skill like the one DK has that trows a "chain" at the enemy and pull it towards you?

Rune_Relic

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Hence using a manual and literal pull skill and a root skill instead of using the automated 1h/s taunt skill.
I would be happy for that particular skill to go as long as we had a manual pull+root.

Wait... maybe i'm starting to understand what you mean... you mean a skill like the one DK has that trows a "chain" at the enemy and pull it towards you?

Yes
Long range single target Pull
Short range PBAoE pull
PBAoE Root.

Oompuh

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Hence using a manual and literal pull skill and a root skill instead of using the automated 1h/s taunt skill.
I would be happy for that particular skill to go as long as we had a manual pull+root.

*Uppercutter is in trash pool*
Well I have to control him or he'll wreck my healer
*chain in* *stunned* *break free* *immunity* *no control over uppercutter* *healer is now dead*

If you pull, theyre stunned. you cant root. If you root, they break free and you cant pull.
Talons? well you supressed the melee, but range is still attacking away.
and most of all.. you can root or pull a boss

Taunt is a way to control a enemy for a long period of time. Stuns and root cause CC immunity and you lose control.

Svalinn

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Yes
Long range single target Pull
Short range AoE pull
Root.

Ok now i undertand. I think this is a mechanic that "might" work with some enemies.. but it would be extremly "unreal" against very large type of enemies (like giants for example).

at the same time it would have to be programmed in a "perfect" way in order to actually work and not have relevance only for "small portions" on the fights since i guess such skill could ot be spammed non-stop.

THey would even have a serious lack in effectiveness against ranged enemies in general.

At this point i'd rather have tanks not aggro but an ability to "directly take hits" by standing in between enemy and party members. so that tanking would become more about positioning then taunts.. and in this case i'd really like to see tanks have "stun" skills to use too.

^^

Oompuh

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Svalinn wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Hence using a manual and literal pull skill and a root skill instead of using the automated 1h/s taunt skill.
I would be happy for that particular skill to go as long as we had a manual pull+root.

Wait... maybe i'm starting to understand what you mean... you mean a skill like the one DK has that trows a "chain" at the enemy and pull it towards you?

Yes
Long range single target Pull
Short range PBAoE pull
PBAoE Root.

So you root everyone around you, what do you do next? theyre still alive and immune to roots now. While i would love all those skills (first one is already chains) I still feel taunts are gonna be needed with ESO's cc immunity

DaveMoeDee

I don't think we need to think in terms of "trinity". There are strategies that you need to leverage. One strategy is to have someone who can absorb damage taunt bosses that do really high damage so that other group members can invest more in spell/weapon power and less in health and damage mitigation.

If you get rid of taunts, it doesn't really help if one group member can absorb a lot of damage. That member would never be attacked because they would do enough damage to catch the attention of the boss. The strategy would end up being 4 DPS/Healers and whoever has aggro will kite while the other 3 do damage. Heavy armor and focusing in damage mitigation would be pointless as they would only guarantee that you never get aggro due to not being considered a threat.

SkoomaAddict420

Because we would all end up as copper tops...

Marktoneth3

Oh you want to remove a Tank from this game ?

Like ZOS intend did with perma block ?

Asherons_Call

Lightninvash wrote: »

A smart AI would target the healer because once dead then take out the DD and then the tank once he has no heals or back up. that would not be a fun dungeon or very fun depending on how you look at it.

Haha yea if an MMO company decided to add real AI we would all be in a load of trouble

Svalinn

Asherons_Call wrote: »

Haha yea if an MMO company decided to add real AI we would all be in a load of trouble

I think that if an MMO company did put a "real" AI in a game it would work kind of like this:

Boss says: i'm strong
Player say: no you suck
Boss: blindly start attacking the player forgetting everything else happening around.

Isn't this what normal REAL people do on forums too? :P

I mean.. long time ago in another MMO there was this racist players that hated people from my country and just tried to kill us on sight when we logged in... once i just sat in town and started whispering to him that i was all around the world "taunting" him to come and get me.. i actually had him running around the full wordl map for 3 hours before telling him i was all the time in the main city.

That's real "AI" for you xD

hamgatan

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Why can't we have more skill lines with taunt abilities? It seems that a taunt would be included in the Heavy Armor and Fighters Guild skill lines...

no.. just no! because then every bloody DPS that's stacking Trap Beast, Evil Hunter and Dawnbreaker will be pulling aggro everytime they pop off one of those abilities - thus irritating the tank having to catch the Boss / Adds again and round them up. teamwork = success, not heroism and being a jack of all trades..

Miszou

Marktoneth3 wrote: »

Oh you want to remove a Tank from this game ?

Like ZOS intend did with perma block ?

Perma block is a crutch for sh!tty tanks.

Get over it and use some of the other skills on your bar.

BigBressler

Muizer wrote: »

Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions. Conversely, giving the AI raw power to compensate for stupidity would be considered as a cheap cop-out. So why, in ESO, is it more important to warp the AI to suit trinity gameplay than to make the best AI possible?

Because I like to play as characters with heavy armor and a sword+shield. Currently that set-up would be pointless if I couldn't taunt. The only solution is to make everyone a DPS, even my kind of build, and have them all capable of putting out the same DPS no matter what class or weapon. At that point, the AI's intelligence wouldn't even matter because everyone is just burning them down anyway. They might as well stand still while we mash 1-5/r and occasionally run away from AoE's. We'd be Maplestory 3D.

Greydir

Miszou wrote: »

Perma block is a crutch for sh!tty tanks.

Get over it and use some of the other skills on your bar.

Nice one, how about you visit the Sanctum and stand in front of the Manticor without blocking. Have fun constructing a new level for viscera cleanup detail

kewl

hrothbern

Greydir wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Perma block is a crutch for sh!tty tanks.

Get over it and use some of the other skills on your bar.

Nice one, how about you visit the Sanctum and stand in front of the Manticor without blocking. Have fun constructing a new level for viscera cleanup detail

haha

He already got one-shotted in dungeons.... at least that is what this older OP of him states:

Miszou wrote: »

Does anyone else get instagibbed in dungeons? And then when you look at the post-mortem "T" screen, it shows you were one-shot for more than your entire health pool?

Is it just me? Do I suck? What's a decent amount of HP/armor for a medium armored VR1 DPS? Are drinks utterly worthless?

Yes, yes... I can dodge and I move out of the way of red rings on the ground. But still, some things just hit like a truck out of nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

It works in real life, believe me, I've seen it.
Few times even.

A good line will aggravate the target enough to get him coming at you, ignoring the rest....

TheDarkShadow

ESO make a right step with no AoE taunt. In trash pull tank don't try to aggro everything, instead try to cc them, off heal... But then I don't know why they decided not to do that with boss.
If a game wants smart AI, it need to get away from the "cheap" taunt mechanic. In a fight, mobs should always pick up the most squishy target, healer, or the target that does the most damage. No "smart" AI should target a heavy armor tank with a shield, that does pity damage and have highest defense. So instead of taunting and dumb down the AI by forcing it to attack the toughest target, a tank would act like a crowd control class, cc, debuff, buff, off heal... They don necessary be the toughest target, wear heavy armor and have lots of health. They need to play smart, not just taunting things then turtle behind the shield. The trinity is no longer tank - heal - dps, but crowd control - heal - dps. Now that is a game I would like to play.

Digiman

Lightninvash wrote: »

A smart AI would target the healer because once dead then take out the DD and then the tank once he has no heals or back up. that would not be a fun dungeon or very fun depending on how you look at it.

That or it's power constraints. I never understood taunting for PvE only. SWTOR lets you reduce the damage of the friendly players from the target of you taunt expect from you.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Excuse me?
It should take out the STRONGEST first?
What kind of moronic tactic is that?

You take out the mosquitos out first, they have usually low life, but can do annoying things.
THEN you go for the heavy one.
And not afore.

As for healer, yes, he should be prime target, and I've seen taunts fail...

Greydir

First as a Tank myself I like being able to control the flow of battle by positioning enemys, getting their attention and strukturing fight. One of the most important ways to get to this goal is the ability to get and hold my enemys attention aka a taut or maybe a swift kick to the jewels. If there is no such ability every fight has the option to degrade to stack and burn to control the movements of opponents by standing all in the same spot or everything goes crazy because everytime someone gets aggro that someone beginns to leg it through the room like a panicing rabbit.
Taunts help structure encounters.
This is critical because big enemys like the Manticore are immune, and rightfully so, to the cc effects. To make the cc Tank work cc would need a near stupid power boost to work.
I personally think that the problen lies less with the Trinity or the fact that taunts dumb down the ai then in the predictability of most bosses and the fact that most mechanics can be citcumvented by enough Damage. I would Advocate for more interesting fights by forcing mechanics and randomizing the Actions bosses are taking, which would force more adaption by players and thus develop skills that are more than just the Damage Rota.

CaptainBeerDude

Marktoneth3 wrote: »

Oh you want to remove a Tank from this game ?

Like ZOS intend did with perma block ?

Perma block is rubbish. If you think tanking is just taunt then block, I'm glad I'll never have you tanking for me (because I love tanking). It only hurt DD's masquerading as tanks. Real tanks should have enough health and mitigation to eat at least a few hit. Levelling a tank at the moment, still has under 20k resistance when scaled to v16. Doesn't get one shotted (anymore). Maybe invest into health, S+B and use some of those CP's into damage reduction.