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Taunting, why is that a thing?
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CaptainBeerDude✭✭✭✭✭TheDarkShadow wrote: »ESO make a right step with no AoE taunt. In trash pull tank don't try to aggro everything, instead try to cc them, off heal... But then I don't know why they decided not to do that with boss.
If a game wants smart AI, it need to get away from the "cheap" taunt mechanic. In a fight, mobs should always pick up the most squishy target, healer, or the target that does the most damage. No "smart" AI should target a heavy armor tank with a shield, that does pity damage and have highest defense. So instead of taunting and dumb down the AI by forcing it to attack the toughest target, a tank would act like a crowd control class, cc, debuff, buff, off heal... They don necessary be the toughest target, wear heavy armor and have lots of health. They need to play smart, not just taunting things then turtle behind the shield. The trinity is no longer tank - heal - dps, but crowd control - heal - dps. Now that is a game I would like to play.
@TheDarkShadow not advocating you play other games, buuut.... DCUO has the extra class you are looking for. It also has tanks. It uses a threat table to decide the target, but a tank can taunt to jump to the top of the table.
So, even with the class you describe (almost exactly the same) tanks and taunting are still valid and required for content. -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Hence using a manual and literal pull skill and a root skill instead of using the automated 1h/s taunt skill.
I would be happy for that particular skill to go as long as we had a manual pull+root.
*Uppercutter is in trash pool*
Well I have to control him or he'll wreck my healer
*chain in* *stunned* *break free* *immunity* *no control over uppercutter* *healer is now dead*
If you pull, theyre stunned. you cant root. If you root, they break free and you cant pull.
Talons? well you supressed the melee, but range is still attacking away.
and most of all.. you can root or pull a boss
Taunt is a way to control a enemy for a long period of time. Stuns and root cause CC immunity and you lose control.
Thats the problem with the way the game works now yes. Cant and wont argue with that.
But stuns and immunity are broken as hell.
And serious/heavy damage from a ranged attack should be interruptable anyway...as they are right next to you.
I see nothing here that cant be fixed.Edited by Rune_Relic on April 20, 2016 10:29AMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited -
TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭Root doesn't cause cc immunity, you can spam root. That's why DK is great in trash pull, they can stop those mobs that do the "charge" attack knock you down and take away 3/4 your health pool.
@CaptainBeerDude sadly I'm not into the superhero gamesEdited by TheDarkShadow on April 20, 2016 10:34AM -
CaptainBeerDude✭✭✭✭✭You know you can move out of the way of the charge, right? Or block it. It stuns the mob if you block it.
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TheDarkShadow✭✭✭✭✭
✭CaptainBeerDude wrote: »You know you can move out of the way of the charge, right? Or block it. It stuns the mob if you block it.
Yeah, but in trash pull with all the skills effects flying around on the screen sometime it's hard to see the red line of the charger on the ground. -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Yes
Long range single target Pull
Short range AoE pull
Root.
Ok now i undertand. I think this is a mechanic that "might" work with some enemies.. but it would be extremly "unreal" against very large type of enemies (like giants for example).
at the same time it would have to be programmed in a "perfect" way in order to actually work and not have relevance only for "small portions" on the fights since i guess such skill could ot be spammed non-stop.
THey would even have a serious lack in effectiveness against ranged enemies in general.
At this point i'd rather have tanks not aggro but an ability to "directly take hits" by standing in between enemy and party members. so that tanking would become more about positioning then taunts.. and in this case i'd really like to see tanks have "stun" skills to use too.
^^
That is a fair point.....which resulted in the DK being pulled to the boss rather than the boss to them.
Not sure if silver leash worked quite the same.
As long as the healer and dps recognise that and move, I dont see the problem.
As long as you have root and interrupt big hits.
If you are spamming one skill you arent spamming anything else (at least you wouldnt be if resource management was fixed).
You cant do mutiple actions in parallel and time is finite. If you do one thing your arent doing something else.
Then there is immunity...but I think a better option would be a double negate.
rooted > move buff to unroot > move buff to get speed
speed > root/snare to debuff > root/snare to lock down.
Each player then has a 5 state switch.
rooted/snared - root/snare immune - normal - fast disabled - fast
I agree tanks need bash/stun in their arsenal.
I see no other way to lower an enemy DPS....aside from mitigaiton.
And we know how well thats working at the moment.Edited by Rune_Relic on April 20, 2016 10:48AMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheDarkShadow wrote: »ESO make a right step with no AoE taunt. In trash pull tank don't try to aggro everything, instead try to cc them, off heal... But then I don't know why they decided not to do that with boss.
If a game wants smart AI, it need to get away from the "cheap" taunt mechanic. In a fight, mobs should always pick up the most squishy target, healer, or the target that does the most damage. No "smart" AI should target a heavy armor tank with a shield, that does pity damage and have highest defense. So instead of taunting and dumb down the AI by forcing it to attack the toughest target, a tank would act like a crowd control class, cc, debuff, buff, off heal... They don necessary be the toughest target, wear heavy armor and have lots of health. They need to play smart, not just taunting things then turtle behind the shield. The trinity is no longer tank - heal - dps, but crowd control - heal - dps. Now that is a game I would like to play.
I 100% agree in principal.
But I also see a need not to make the Tanks OP.
Giving tanks total control without the ability to shake off that control would be a nightmare.
But you cant go to the other extreme either as it then makes the tank pointless/irrelevant again.
NO ONE is going to attack the Tanks unless they have NO CHOICE.
Its a very fine line to balance. Its not easy to do that and keep it all fair from the tank/dps and healer PvP perspsective...ignoring the bosses.
If you have to choose between spending your time CC and CC evasion
OR
damage and damage evasion
then the resource management should take care of the rest.
It lets the player decide how they want to spend their time and weigh up the pros and cons at any instant.Edited by Rune_Relic on April 20, 2016 11:06AMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited -
PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭Simple if you don't have taunt you have to have collision checks to make you physically able to block pathfinding to you healer.
It's do able but it's not just a change to taunt and ai, it's the mechanics for everything.
Also collision checks destroy server performance.PSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB -
Fallen_Ray✭✭✭✭✭Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions. Conversely, giving the AI raw power to compensate for stupidity would be considered as a cheap cop-out. So why, in ESO, is it more important to warp the AI to suit trinity game play than to make the best AI possible?
I agree with you in some way. I say the AI could make "different smart" decisions. In example, the famous Dark souls Series use a kind of "learning AI" meaning strategy repeating won't work on them. I'm not saying this game's AI should be like Dark Souls's AI, but if in some way they would implement a variety of strategies for the AI to use randomly learning from the player's game play, it would make fighting bosses a bit more interesting, cause let's admit it, once you get the sequence down we can beat any boss with ease.
That's the raw idea anyway, some might agree, most will disagree. It would be interesting to actually test it out, see how it flows"Dear brother, I do not spread rumors, I create them"- Lucien Lachance -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭BigBressler wrote: »Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions. Conversely, giving the AI raw power to compensate for stupidity would be considered as a cheap cop-out. So why, in ESO, is it more important to warp the AI to suit trinity gameplay than to make the best AI possible?
Because I like to play as characters with heavy armor and a sword+shield. Currently that set-up would be pointless if I couldn't taunt. The only solution is to make everyone a DPS, even my kind of build, and have them all capable of putting out the same DPS no matter what class or weapon. At that point, the AI's intelligence wouldn't even matter because everyone is just burning them down anyway. They might as well stand still while we mash 1-5/r and occasionally run away from AoE's. We'd be Maplestory 3D.
Why would you say that's the only solution? I've played enough strategy games in the past that require you to have a variety of troops in your army because they're good/bad at different things. If you make an army only out of footmen, you'll get slaughtered by bowmen. If you take an army only of bowmen, you get slaughtered by cavalry. If you take an army only of cavalry you get slaughtered by pikemen and so on. "Build" variety ensured with no taunting involved.
Edited by Muizer on April 20, 2016 5:01PMPlease stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is! -
Miszou✭✭✭✭✭
I said PERMA-blocking is a crutch, not blocking. derp.
@hrothbern
haha
He already got one-shotted in dungeons.... at least that is what this older OP of him states:Does anyone else get instagibbed in dungeons? And then when you look at the post-mortem "T" screen, it shows you were one-shot for more than your entire health pool?
Is it just me? Do I suck? What's a decent amount of HP/armor for a medium armored VR1 DPS? Are drinks utterly worthless?
Yes, yes... I can dodge and I move out of the way of red rings on the ground. But still, some things just hit like a truck out of nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it.
Nice job.
You found a quote from over a year ago regarding a poorly built nightblade DPS and used it to try and discredit my opinion of perma-blocking tanks.
That's impressive. Also, a little creepy.
And completely hilarious. -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I said PERMA-blocking is a crutch, not blocking. derp.
@hrothbern
haha
He already got one-shotted in dungeons.... at least that is what this older OP of him states:Does anyone else get instagibbed in dungeons? And then when you look at the post-mortem "T" screen, it shows you were one-shot for more than your entire health pool?
Is it just me? Do I suck? What's a decent amount of HP/armor for a medium armored VR1 DPS? Are drinks utterly worthless?
Yes, yes... I can dodge and I move out of the way of red rings on the ground. But still, some things just hit like a truck out of nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it.
Nice job.
You found a quote from over a year ago regarding a poorly built nightblade DPS and used it to try and discredit my opinion of perma-blocking tanks.
That's impressive. Also, a little creepy.
And completely hilarious.
I find somebody using the words "sh!tty" tanks hilarious
I wanted to react on a quote that was unnecessary rude to tanks that have a build to block a lot
(perhaps to do more damage, perhaps to do better support to their groups, perhaps another GOOD reason).
and I just wanted to see what kind of poster you were....
and besides you having a better build now.... I saw no difference in the shooting from the hip remarks you made in your post a year ago and your last post
just saying"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
Miszou✭✭✭✭✭
I said PERMA-blocking is a crutch, not blocking. derp.
@hrothbern
haha
He already got one-shotted in dungeons.... at least that is what this older OP of him states:Does anyone else get instagibbed in dungeons? And then when you look at the post-mortem "T" screen, it shows you were one-shot for more than your entire health pool?
Is it just me? Do I suck? What's a decent amount of HP/armor for a medium armored VR1 DPS? Are drinks utterly worthless?
Yes, yes... I can dodge and I move out of the way of red rings on the ground. But still, some things just hit like a truck out of nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it.
Nice job.
You found a quote from over a year ago regarding a poorly built nightblade DPS and used it to try and discredit my opinion of perma-blocking tanks.
That's impressive. Also, a little creepy.
And completely hilarious.
I find somebody using the words "sh!tty" tanks hilarious
It was late and I was drunk. No excuse, but I thought I was hilarious and overflowing with wisdom at the time.
Although... yeah, probably a little rude in hindsight.
Still true though... perma-blocking is kind of weak-sauce easy-mode.
There's so much more you could be doing for your team. -
Marktoneth3✭✭✭Marktoneth3 wrote: »Oh you want to remove a Tank from this game ?
Like ZOS intend did with perma block ?
Perma block is a crutch for sh!tty tanks.
Get over it and use some of the other skills on your bar.
I never have problems with stamina management in pve LMAO
I complain because It's hard to manage resource while PVP
Stop stereotype. -
Marktoneth3✭✭✭CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Marktoneth3 wrote: »Oh you want to remove a Tank from this game ?
Like ZOS intend did with perma block ?
Perma block is rubbish. If you think tanking is just taunt then block, I'm glad I'll never have you tanking for me (because I love tanking). It only hurt DD's masquerading as tanks. Real tanks should have enough health and mitigation to eat at least a few hit. Levelling a tank at the moment, still has under 20k resistance when scaled to v16. Doesn't get one shotted (anymore). Maybe invest into health, S+B and use some of those CP's into damage reduction.
I'm glad I never find you in the game what a rubbish attitude because this people can assuming everything by themselves.
Did I said I can't manage my stam pool?....Did I ? huh ?
What a rubbish user....Stop stereotype...It just I complain about perma block doesn't mean I've to be newbie like you.Edited by Marktoneth3 on April 20, 2016 5:56PM -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I said PERMA-blocking is a crutch, not blocking. derp.
@hrothbern
haha
He already got one-shotted in dungeons.... at least that is what this older OP of him states:Does anyone else get instagibbed in dungeons? And then when you look at the post-mortem "T" screen, it shows you were one-shot for more than your entire health pool?
Is it just me? Do I suck? What's a decent amount of HP/armor for a medium armored VR1 DPS? Are drinks utterly worthless?
Yes, yes... I can dodge and I move out of the way of red rings on the ground. But still, some things just hit like a truck out of nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it.
Nice job.
You found a quote from over a year ago regarding a poorly built nightblade DPS and used it to try and discredit my opinion of perma-blocking tanks.
That's impressive. Also, a little creepy.
And completely hilarious.
I find somebody using the words "sh!tty" tanks hilarious
It was late and I was drunk. No excuse, but I thought I was hilarious and overflowing with wisdom at the time.
Although... yeah, probably a little rude in hindsight.
Still true though... perma-blocking is kind of weak-sauce easy-mode. There's so much more you could be doing for your team.
I am always a bit touchy to protect the Tank role and also newbies Tanks trying to find a way to do it with often very little CP's available.
yeah... and I do agree that in general just perma blocking is not the best you can do as a Tank...
but I understand it from players still learning it.
"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
CaptainBeerDude✭✭✭✭✭TheDarkShadow wrote: »CaptainBeerDude wrote: »You know you can move out of the way of the charge, right? Or block it. It stuns the mob if you block it.
Yeah, but in trash pull with all the skills effects flying around on the screen sometime it's hard to see the red line of the charger on the ground.
More health and stam, Bruh.
It'll let you take the hit, break out and wait for your healer to drop the good stuff. Exactly why taunts are needed.
DMarktoneth3 wrote: »CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Marktoneth3 wrote: »Oh you want to remove a Tank from this game ?
Like ZOS intend did with perma block ?
Perma block is rubbish. If you think tanking is just taunt then block, I'm glad I'll never have you tanking for me (because I love tanking). It only hurt DD's masquerading as tanks. Real tanks should have enough health and mitigation to eat at least a few hit. Levelling a tank at the moment, still has under 20k resistance when scaled to v16. Doesn't get one shotted (anymore). Maybe invest into health, S+B and use some of those CP's into damage reduction.
I'm glad I never find you in the game what a rubbish attitude because this people can assuming everything by themselves.
Did I said I can't manage my stam pool?....Did I ? huh ?
What a rubbish user....Stop stereotype...It just I complain about perma block doesn't mean I've to be newbie like you.
Seriously? I say I like tanking and you say that means I think I can do it all myself? You need to check what a tank is in MMO's.
You did imply that tanking was now extremely difficult, if not impossible, due to the stam regen while blocking nerf. So maybe you did say that you couldn't manage your resources.
And if only having one v16 makes me a newbie, then c'est la vie.
Have a good day.
