Taunting, why is that a thing?

Muizer · April 2016

Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions. Conversely, giving the AI raw power to compensate for stupidity would be considered as a cheap cop-out. So why, in ESO, is it more important to warp the AI to suit trinity gameplay than to make the best AI possible?

Lightninvash · April 2016

A smart AI would target the healer because once dead then take out the DD and then the tank once he has no heals or back up. that would not be a fun dungeon or very fun depending on how you look at it.

Steel_Brightblade · April 2016

Well tanks would vanish entirely as what would be the point, less diversity as all builds would have to bulk up, lose damage and essentially all be able to solo because intelligent boss will always kill the healer.

Shunravi · April 2016

A smart ai would single out the healer (or person healing the most), and attempt to zone everyone else away from the healer with its mechanics. It would then try to camp the body while killing the player with the lowest defensive pool. Any attempt to resurrect would be met with immediate hostility.

There would be no point in heavy armor as it stands now, as you would want to focus on more damage and kiting.

If they didn't have a taunt and tried the GW2 method of agro going to the guy with the highest toughness stat, well, that's just a taunt without the skill for it.

Muizer · April 2016

Indeed. You can rephrase my question as "why are people so hung up on trinity roles that they are prepared to dumb down the AI to give those roles a reason to exist". I don't get that.

cyclonus11 · April 2016

Why can't we have more skill lines with taunt abilities? It seems that a taunt would be included in the Heavy Armor and Fighters Guild skill lines...

phaneub17_ESO · April 2016

So what's your proposal? What should we be doing differently? Do you want to go like Diablo 3 where everyone is all about doing the most damage possible in a mindless grindfest?

rotaugen454 · April 2016

Up yours buddy!
Oh, you mean taunting in the game....sorry.

Shunravi · April 2016

Muizer wrote: »

Indeed. You can rephrase my question as "why are people so hung up on trinity roles that they are prepared to dumb down the AI to give those roles a reason to exist". I don't get that.

The short answer; build diversity.

The slightly longer one; some people like tanking. Some people like healing. Smarter ai is actually posible and preferred with the trinity. As you have more ways to manage a smart ai.

However, if you got rid of things like a taunt then that would negate an entire range of builds that focus on taking damage. You are left with GW2's meta which is just stack as much dps as possible and burn down the boss.

MokiDono · April 2016

A smart AI would use its burnphase "screw your raid" ability from the start.

DannyLV702 · April 2016

It's called pvp

Slayyer-AUS · April 2016

I come from the land down under

Shunravi · April 2016

In fact, i consider the bosses in GW2, the game proud of not having the trinity, to be rather dumb. They generally stand in place or have a directed charge or a dodge on a timer and their biggest threats come from punishing aoe mechanics rather than any actual ai. They essentially act like they are being tanked without the tank. And im including their bosses that do move as for them you just stack and burn. And for any others, its still big aoe things that you have to avoid in some way.

Masstershake · April 2016

Doesn't the ai already try and attack the healers ot whomever has the highest threat. Which is the reason for needing a taunt.

Muizer · April 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Indeed. You can rephrase my question as "why are people so hung up on trinity roles that they are prepared to dumb down the AI to give those roles a reason to exist". I don't get that.

The short answer; build diversity.

The slightly longer one; some people like tanking. Some people like healing. Smarter ai is actually posible and preferred with the trinity. As you have more ways to manage a smart ai.

However, if you got rid of things like a taunt then that would negate an entire range of builds that focus on taking damage. You are left with GW2's meta which is just stack as much dps as possible and burn down the boss.

Might as well say as a pure DPS without armour or mobility you'd be target priority no1 and without a tank you'd be the first to die, because you cannot defend yourself and nobody would be able to get the boss off of you.
Depends on how you balance it.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

Muizer wrote: »

Would it not be better to get rid of that and have an AI that's actually as smart as it can be made regarding its target prioritisation? In all other games I've played that's what people would ask for: an AI that makes smart decisions. Conversely, giving the AI raw power to compensate for stupidity would be considered as a cheap cop-out. So why, in ESO, is it more important to warp the AI to suit trinity gameplay than to make the best AI possible?

Well...there is a lot of debate from groups of players who play this game and expect others to play this game as if its a strict "trinity" or traditional MMORPG gameplay type.

ZOS has designed a game that offers various groups to all come together to enjoy the game. You can play a trinity strict role based game, or you can mix and match as well as completely disregard any trinity concepts and go all support and logic.

I like that taunts are available because removing it and replacing it with a more intelligent AI isn't what best works for the large population they hope to attract.

In closed BETA early on...there was a much more intelligent AI and difficulty and I recall ppl point blank saying its too hard.
This was just the solo and duo questing environments where Dolemans and dungeons would require at least 2-3 ppl. World bosses and public dugeon bosses also required 2-3 ppl

You'll see a lot of ... "this game is too easy" but you also will see, make more solo-able content (which to some means easy) while others will ask for more group content (which to some means harder).

All in all, there is a need for taunts due to the various play styles this game accepts but i'd welcome higher AI and difficulty in some areas while other areas like vMSA, is tough enough as is.

Nestor · April 2016

If you want tough boss mechanics, do Veteran Group Dungeons.

Shunravi · April 2016

Muizer wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

Indeed. You can rephrase my question as "why are people so hung up on trinity roles that they are prepared to dumb down the AI to give those roles a reason to exist". I don't get that.

The short answer; build diversity.

The slightly longer one; some people like tanking. Some people like healing. Smarter ai is actually posible and preferred with the trinity. As you have more ways to manage a smart ai.

However, if you got rid of things like a taunt then that would negate an entire range of builds that focus on taking damage. You are left with GW2's meta which is just stack as much dps as possible and burn down the boss.

Might as well say as a pure DPS without armour or mobility you'd be target priority no1 and without a tank you'd be the first to die, because you cannot defend yourself and nobody would be able to get the boss off of you.
Depends on how you balance it.

Well, of course it depends on how you balance it

.But the long and short of it, any ai that i would consider smart would have an algorithm to determine both who its greatest threat is, and who its easiest target is. Be the healer, dps, or whoever.

But im actually not necessarily saying taunt is the 'best thing evah!' Or anything either.

But it does allow for things that i would consider would be easier to make an actually 'smart' ai, without being needlessly punishing. One example is being able to position a boss with more effectiveness and all of the things that are possible with that. And again i want to harken to build diversity.

But whatever

its an interesting discussion

dodgehopper_ESO · April 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

A smart ai would single out the healer (or person healing the most), and attempt to zone everyone else away from the healer with its mechanics. It would then try to camp the body while killing the player with the lowest defensive pool. Any attempt to resurrect would be met with immediate hostility.

There would be no point in heavy armor as it stands now, as you would want to focus on more damage and kiting.

If they didn't have a taunt and tried the GW2 method of agro going to the guy with the highest toughness stat, well, that's just a taunt without the skill for it.

Not that there is much point in Heavy Armor anyway, except for maybe in Trials.

Shunravi · April 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

A smart ai would single out the healer (or person healing the most), and attempt to zone everyone else away from the healer with its mechanics. It would then try to camp the body while killing the player with the lowest defensive pool. Any attempt to resurrect would be met with immediate hostility.

There would be no point in heavy armor as it stands now, as you would want to focus on more damage and kiting.

If they didn't have a taunt and tried the GW2 method of agro going to the guy with the highest toughness stat, well, that's just a taunt without the skill for it.

Not that there is much point in Heavy Armor anyway, except for maybe in Trials.

Yea...

But at least there is an intended point.

Solid_Metal · April 2016

you dont want trinity?, try play GW2, and you will know why (at least for me) trinity job role is the best thing MMO should keep, its provide more strategic play for a group, which is what its intended

with no trinity, everyone will be a DPS hitting a boss like bunch of child using nerf foam sword attacking their dad

Shunravi · April 2016

Solid_Metal wrote: »

you dont want trinity?, try play GW2, and you will know why (at least for me) trinity job role is the best thing MMO should keep, its provide more strategic play for a group, which is what its intended

with no trinity, everyone will be a DPS hitting a boss like bunch of child using nerf foam sword attacking their dad

Yup. Its zergs and stacking as the meta. If you think ESO has it bad, youve never played GW2.

Korah_Eaglecry · April 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

A smart AI would target the healer because once dead then take out the DD and then the tank once he has no heals or back up. that would not be a fun dungeon or very fun depending on how you look at it.

Pretty much this. If you ever take notice of your prioritizing when you run into mobs. Its always Healers>Ranged>Melee DPS>Tank. Why? Because when Healers are up they can keep the others up prolonging the fight. Ranged can do severe damage without you even being close and Melee is slightly more threatening than Tanks who you can generally ignore through the fight unless they hit you with a WB like ability. And Melee will be all over you once youre on the ground.

If we were to get an AI that behaved the way we do. It wipe the floor with us. Thats why bosses have different mechanics and some of the most powerful AoEs in the game.

Shunravi · April 2016

There are mechanics in ESO that greatly benifit from having a tank, and i consider them great mechanics as well. They may not be smart ai, but they are smartly structured mechanics. One example is hardmode helra (the non stack and burn method.) the tank needs to position the boss and everyone else needs to get in position so that the boss jump and shield throw hit as many gargoyles as possible.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · April 2016

the problem in all games, is the ai doesnt change. So once the smart ai gets its rules figured out it turns into just another fight.

For example someone mentioned smart ai would target the person doin the most healing. Ok... Our tanks are now built instead of block and dodge but with healing options. Heals are the new taunt. And nothing has really changed. Except for maybe the healer is now free to dps more since the tank spends most the time healing to hold hate. And more kiting i suppose.

Should we build them with no hate so the mob just runs around doing what ever it feels like and everyone takes cafe of themselves? Then it is just a question of learning the fights mechanics and everyone is a dps.

BlackEar · April 2016

Sounds more like GW2. Trinity is a core aspect Eso and pve is build around it. Gives a sense of purpose and direction for the player, too.

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2016

Uh (if any one can recall) all the way back in previews in like 2013 delvs were commenting on how their AI is smart and will go after the person who is healing or doing ranged attacks apposed to normal AI which just goes after who ever has the most aggro which in most games is who ever is dealing the most damage.

Taunts are here for a reason and if any thing could be buffed up to AOE taunt or taunt 1 or 2 nearby enemies instead of one at a time.

hrothbern · April 2016

Masstershake wrote: »

Doesn't the ai already try and attack the healers ot whomever has the highest threat. Which is the reason for needing a taunt.

The AI to replace DPS playing rotations and targetting, will be much easier to program, than the AI to replace a Tank that taunts, perhaps one boss, perhaps more adds and moves to the best position.

Sure...

AI can replace all that.... and then we can watch our own ESO stream, sitting in our armchairs, just managing everything and ofc chat a lot

Shunravi · April 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Uh (if any one can recall) all the way back in previews in like 2013 delvs were commenting on how their AI is smart and will go after the person who is healing or doing ranged attacks apposed to normal AI which just goes after who ever has the most aggro which in most games is who ever is dealing the most damage.

Taunts are here for a reason and if any thing could be buffed up to AOE taunt or taunt 1 or 2 nearby enemies instead of one at a time.

I do remember that. Never been sure if its true though.

phaneub17_ESO · April 2016

One thing I would admit, I wish we had an aoe taunt not in the way that I shout and everything around comes at me, but like a drop circle with a small to medium radius that increases the attention I get from whatever mobs are within it. It's for when they gather up and trying to pick out a target can be frustrating since everything is line of sight some mobs with a wide target radius, so even Inner Fire gets wasted as it hits whoever is closest in front. With an aoe drop taunt I can at least get within the vicinity of the target if I want to get their attention.

Dagoth_Rac · April 2016

Some players like tanking. They like standing their ground and taking a beating that no one else in the group could withstand. And taunting, especially since all the taunts are single target, adds some active engagement to fight for tank.

Your alternatives would be for passives ways to grab aggro, like the boss going after player with highest armor/resist or going after player with highest health. But that is essentially taunting with no need for the player to be actively engaged in taunting. Which would not fit the combat style of ESO. It is supposed to be high-action with no cooldowns and a need to react quickly and a need to prioritize targets.

The other alternative would be no aggro at all. The boss would just go after the weak link or go after players randomly or something like that. Either that results in everyone getting one-shot if they are not tanky, or boss is weakened so he does not one-shot anyone, or it becomes a pure RNG thing where you hope boss does not pick on you two or three times in a row.

I just do not see an alternative to taunting that does not result in:

1). Still needing a tank, but tank's job is now very boring, or
2). Not needing a tank, so tank is just replaced by another DPS or healer.

I guess you could just get rid of roles altogether. But that always seems to result in everybody running the same role that is sort of a mishmash of the other 3 roles. But that does not feel like a team effort with different players adding different things to mix. It feels like 4 independent people doing the same thing with other players on the screen. Might as well run a public dungeon. In a game where classes and races and weapons were highly segregated, no roles might work. You would have a very different experience by playing different characters. But the openness of skills and weapons and armors in this game precludes that. Being a Khajiit Nightblade Bow DPS does not play all that differently from being an Altmer Sorcerer Destro Staff DPS. And so on.

With all that build flexibility, you need defined roles. There needs to be some structure, some endpoint, to all that flexibility. You need to be building to something. And one of those somethings is a tank role.

I would actually like to see more roles! Like a dedicated support/utility role, who might be in charge of buffs and magicka/stamina resource management of other players, etc.