Sorry if I didn't clarify. I'm not looking for ways for a Tanks to Complete VetMSA. I'm looking for methods, skills, and tactics to have sustained defense against players with builds meant to complete VetMSA.

To kill the likes of flawless conquers like me all you need to do is sponge, block, dip, duck dive and dodge for like 30s and I have nothing left to give...think of it like fighting a WW. So long as you don't hit them they don't get the 3s extention every 3s so just survive and when they transform kill them in seconds...same principle..like fighting sorcs, when the heavy attacks start beast them as they are out of magika. Or even easier...shield breaker.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

I will play devils advocate and explain.....amply demonstrated by some posters here....why balance isnt perfect because peole cant be bothered or prefer their playstyle.

Time.

That is the enemy of DPS that negates their heavy damage (reduced DPS).
By having stronger armour..and reducing the attacks a DPS can get off through stuns or CC..you negate his advantage.
Their perceived dominance with DPS...is reduced to the level of the tank or the healer.

In the same token it can be reduced below the DPS of the tank or healer.
And as their armour is crap anyway their mitigation should be crap enough to offer little resistance to the lighter DPS.

So NO.
DPS should not be the all conquering hero.
DPS Healer and Tank should be balanced.
Anyone who says otherwise is just feathering their own nest.
..or being biased..or being lazy.

Like Richard Lambert when he said he wanted people to die quicker so ZOS balanced the game in favour of DPS and against tanks and healers.

DPS checks ? What about the healing check ? What about the mitigation check ?
Let me stun, root and bash those monsters down to my level and I will out live them and conquer them.
But ZOS wont do that of course.
Because......


And this is why I await DB with anticipation.
To see if we have moved to game balance or are stuck with DPS bias.

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

To kill the likes of flawless conquers like me all you need to do is sponge, block, dip, duck dive and dodge for like 30s and I have nothing left to give...think of it like fighting a WW. So long as you don't hit them they don't get the 3s extention every 3s so just survive and when they transform kill them in seconds...same principle..like fighting sorcs, when the heavy attacks start beast them as they are out of magika. Or even easier...shield breaker.

Or when fighting a ww throw wings on and watch them hit themselves for a 20k howl ^^, then dawnbreaker if your feeling up to it.

code65536 wrote: »

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

Okay, magblades don't count.

If you were a stamblade, you'd have a different setup in vMA than you would in a trial. The point is that straight DPS is not what wins the day. It's DPS with a good measure of sustain and survival, and some builds (magblades) have it easier than others.

Apart from glass cannon sorc who do VMSA, they get sustain from overload, they get defence from shields... xD There even more glass cannon than nb's.

I'm still havin a hard time understanding the question, but I think what you are asking is if there are any builds/skills that can be used to mitigate 20-25k 'sustained' DPS. Now in PvP these values are essentially halved. So let's say you are looking to be able to mitigate and negate roughly 10k sustained DPS. This is very doable. And it's doable on any class tbh. But that is not to say it is easy, and there will always be many other factors to take into account along with skill (CC timing, passives, damage type, etc.). None the less I think this could be a very interesting discussion and would like to hear from many, more experienced players on the subject.

Anyway, I will start off by saying that I am not of the opinion that DPS is the be all and end all of PvP combat. I feel that a well organised group consisting of a good balance of support plus DPS will always have an advantage over a group lacking dedicated or even semi support roles when we consider initiation, focus, and just basically equal amounts of skill.

When it comes specifically to tanking in PvP you certainly need to offer more than just the ability to take hits as the clever players will just ignore you meaning you then have very little impact on the outcome. And the effectiveness of what else one can offer may depend on ones class but I think generally all classes can offer at least plenty of control or healing or even both.

DK has a full skill line dedicated to tanking, sorcs have hardened ward combined with healing ward or harness Magicka, temp have mainly heals to mitigate and NB can use a combination of skills from the shadow tree and siphoning tree. All these classes can also offer lots of disables and heals. Some better than others depending on what you are after. But as I eluded to earlier on is the fact that to sustain this level of mitigation whilst also staying relevant with levels of control or healing is where it becomes difficult.

I hope I at least touched on what you are asking

redspecter23 wrote: »

If you're asking if a polar opposite to a min/max dps build can compete in vMSA, then in theory I'd say it's a maybe. In any situation in vMSA, IF there is no enrage timer then a defensive character can complete. It would take them longer and possibly be safer. As soon as you run into any situation with an enrage that results in a set of damage that the tank can't soak up, it's all over. That's the major bottleneck. There are very few situations that can't be solved by adding more dps (and there is no cap other than what you can min/max) but there are situations where pure defense and average or less dps just plain won't cut it.

When you're racing against a clock of any kind, defensive/control type builds are at a MASSIVE disadvantage and vMSA is a race whether it's for leaderboard ranking or just making the best use of your in game time or fighting enrage mechanics.

I think some mob spawns are timed. And some of them are pretty nasty, like crematorial guardians. Also, sometimes you need to dispatch the mobs quick enough (stage 5 boss breaks the last platform at 5% of her hp so you end up in cold water if you wont kill her fast enough, stage 9 miniboss is only vulnerable for 10 or 15 seconds after you break the pillars, stage 7 venom callers have to be killed asap since poison circles often hit you when youre outiside them.. Etc). Also Im not sure there's enough hoarvoars to reset the stage 6 boss' enrage all the time, and her add stacks speed debuff if not killed fast enough.

code65536 wrote: »

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

Okay, magblades don't count.

If you were a stamblade, you'd have a different setup in vMA than you would in a trial. The point is that straight DPS is not what wins the day. It's DPS with a good measure of sustain and survival, and some builds (magblades) have it easier than others.

I did it with magicka DK with the following equipment:

5 Julianos, 3 Willpower (spelldmg), 2 Kena, MSA destro/resto

is it enough glass cannon for you?

Artis wrote: »

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

You rly need to play with some good DDs. Most bosses hit like a wet noodle and all classes are able to heal thereselves while dpsing...

Youtube-Link

edit: i rly need to learn how to get a working youtube-video into my comment -.-

Artis wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

Tanks and healers are support roles.

The DPS is always the main role.

The goal of combat in any game (not just ESO) is to kill your enemy. No damage, no kills. This is why DPS is always, a priori, the main role. In a group setting, the tank and healer are there to keep the DPS alive while the DPS does the killing.

If you take away the group, and look at a solo situation, the same applies. You must do damage, since that's the main goal of combat. Your damage-dealing build has to have a good amount of self-healing and toughness to survive while you dish out that damage, but you must do damage.

This isn't about ESO. This isn't about the game being unfair to tanks or healers. This is just the inherent nature of any combat game. You don't block someone to death, and you don't heal someone to death. If you're in a group setting, you can give that damage-dealing job to someone else while you worry about their survival, but solo, you need to suck it up and realize that you must do damage because, as a support role, what exactly are you supporting if you're solo?

LOL.

Foundation and walls are support elements.

The furniture is always the main thing.

The goal of any house is for people to comfortably live there. They can't sit on foundation or walls. This is why furniture is apriori the main thing. In a house, foundation and walls are there only to keep furniture inside while it's there for people to use.

too lazy to continue, it's almost 4am. But yeah, you're wrong. In fact, to complete an encounter you need a certain amount of tankiness/heals and ANY amount of dps unless there's enrage mechanics. Healers and tanks do provide some amount of dps, DPS usually don't have enough surviveability. I saw it many times in 4ppl dungeons how DPS would die and a tank would solo finish a fight. I've never seen a dedicated DPS to finish a fight when tank and heals die (not talking about last couple % when he only has to land a few attacks).
Just rethink your hierarchy. DPS is definitely NOT the MAIN role.

IamNoobee wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nobody beats vMA with a glass cannon DPS build that they'd use in Sanctum. Everyone needs to self-heal. Everyone needs defenses. And everyone needs to be able to kill stuff reasonably fast.

guess im nobody then cause my vma setup uses the same setup for trials and any kinda group play, and has been for a couple months now. destro/dw magblade. self healing glass cannon ;0

You should post a video some time. Kinda hard to imagine how that group build can take all the damage from archers and such.

He's a mag blade, he likely just block casts everything and stay alive with the built in heals + healers in his group.