Your coders simply aren't up to the task
-
HoloYoitsu✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
His point is along the lines of....Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Sallington wrote: »I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?
Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.
"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.
I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.
When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?
That's not what I said.
It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".
So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?
There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.
What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.
The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.
Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.
That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.
I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.
My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.
Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.
I bought a toaster 3 years ago that came with a free 5 year warranty, the company I bought it from obviously has faith in their product and the manufacturing staff who assembled it, what's your point exactly james?
Are you saying we should only expect a working product from zos if we spend an excess of 20k?In fact, everyone [...saying] that this game is bad is clearly a person you should just ignore.2 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭HoloYoitsu wrote: »
His point is along the lines of....Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Sallington wrote: »I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?
Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.
"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.
I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.
When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?
That's not what I said.
It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".
So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?
There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.
What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.
The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.
Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.
That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.
I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.
My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.
Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.
I bought a toaster 3 years ago that came with a free 5 year warranty, the company I bought it from obviously has faith in their product and the manufacturing staff who assembled it, what's your point exactly james?
Are you saying we should only expect a working product from zos if we spend an excess of 20k?In fact, everyone [...saying] that this game is bad is clearly a person you should just ignore.
lol yeah I figured as much, it's a shame he doesn't do as suggested but then again there's probably not many to talk to if he does that.0 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
I love these threads where all these armchair developers try to tell me (the actual real world developer) how there is no way for me to tell if a program isn't up to snuff.
I only need to be half awake to compile you a comprehensive list of things one could do to improve the ESO Client as well as the overall Client/Server architecture, the Client/Server communication and most importantly, the Server implementation itself.
10 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's not just their coders, have you seen the gems that Wrobel and Wheeler produce as lead devs? Broken balance, band-aid fixes, neglect, poorly thought out changes, and zero communication.
The worst part is if these geniuses get fired then whoever replaces them will need to work through an enormous mess of imbalances, new bugs on top of old bugs on top of old bugs, and changing this stupid meta that arrived with TG. This is assuming the new devs in charge actually knew what they were doing.
I have very little faith that Dark Brotherhood will be anything close to this magical fix. Rather, I expect it to be more like "Hey guys we removed Vet Ranks! Lots of work you know.... so yeah.... uhm..... were gonna 'investigate' those bugs later..."
Edited by Vaoh on April 14, 2016 3:53AM2 -
tinythinker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So basically a mini-version of what Square did with their MMO a few years ago? Actually saw people asking for that a year and half ago here on the forums. Will never happen.I wouldn't mind if they will take down the servers for a month if they would be able to fix the cyrodiil lag, performance issues, fps issue etc.
Edited by tinythinker on April 14, 2016 4:05AM❤Experienced, new, returner?❤ Help keep ESO's community strong ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ -- share what you love about the game, offer constructive feedback, and make friends.ʕ·ᴥ·ʔ
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Who are you in Tamriel (whether it's just your character's attitude & style or a full backstory)? - Share your Character's Story! ◔ ⌣ ◔
(And let us know 🔷What Kind of Roleplayer You Are🔷 - even if that only extends to choosing your race)
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Support Mudcrab Mode for ESO (\/)!_!(\/) - part joke, part serious, all glorious! You butter be ready for this0 -
Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
I love these threads where all these armchair developers try to tell me (the actual real world developer) how there is no way for me to tell if a program isn't up to snuff.
I only need to be half awake to compile you a comprehensive list of things one could do to improve the ESO Client as well as the overall Client/Server architecture, the Client/Server communication and most importantly, the Server implementation itself.
@SirAndy You actually know what you are talking about. I don't think you are allowed to post here.
What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.
The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.
Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.
That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.
Lag always exists in the sense that the client is moving on while the server is calculating, so because of time-space the client will always be ahead. But it's a completely irrelevant argument. In this game, tracing continuously shows that for most players the network path is not a significant source of lag. If it is for *you*, just pay for better QoS. Stateside that often means paying for a business connection. However, most players are good to go without.
It's not an assumption.
There are basically three types of lag, client side, server side and network delays (including latency), and each presents itself differently. With a quick look at how the client communicates and receives data, the computation load and distribution on your hardware (e.g., determine # of threads, cpu v. gpu, etc.), connection tracing and some time in game to see how the lag manifests itself, you can tell the origin of the lag to a fairly high degree of accuracy. By origin I mean which of Sever/Client/Network is causing it. It is a bit more complicated to figure out exactly why, but not necessarily impossible, w are able to tell quite a bit by the amount of threading, load on CPU v. GPU, lag compensation mechanisms, etc.
I am sure that some people are experiencing lag either due to client hardware or their connection. These can be mostly fixed by the player, but load balancing is still pretty bad overall. Balancing could be improved by increasing multi-threading (client side problem originated by coding). They have done this to a certain extent, and while before you saw only one CPU take most of the load, now a second core is taking some of the load, which increases GPU utilization. This can't really be improved too much because the minimum requirements for ESO is dual core... It's also much more time intensive to split after you have already coded/selected the engine.
Once you get your own hardware fixed up, you will see server originated lag dominate in PvP where large numbers of players congregate and still some client side lag because of the increase in CPU utilization. Server side lag could be fixed by changes to client/server architecture, hardware upgrades, etc. But let's assume ZoS understands the issues (which their patches indicate they do) and decided this was to expensive to make more improvements. They could also offload more work to the client. This makes cheating easier, so now they would have to implement a security measure (e.g., encryption). However, minimum requirements for client side hardware and network bandwidth would change quite a bit and are already lowballed by ZoS.
In summary, my take on the issue is that if your rig is up to snuff, the lag is both client side lag caused by server coding and server lag due to various reasons that could be fixed/improved, but ZoS likely has a spending allocation that's to low for a systemic fix and are not willing to increase minimum requirements into the modern age to avoid hardware related imbalances or the inability of some customers to play at all. As long as this remains true, no significant improvement can be made to lag in cyrodiil. So take it or leave it at this point, any improvements they make will be marginal unless they make hard choices..
4 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I watched Fengrush's video and I agree with him wholeheartedly. I have played this game since beta as a Sanguine tester. I loved this game, it was perfect for me. I did everything I could to support it. But the game I loved left me, I didn't leave it, they left me. I love the PvE content in this game, but I am primarily a PvPer and from my perspective they have abandoned us while giving us false hope. I feel deeply disrespected by that.
As I play another game I think everyday how much I miss ESO, but the nostalgia I feel is for a game that no longer exists, this is a new game now. It's still a very good game, the story content is better than anything out there right now, in the past and likely for some time. The immersive experience of PvE is AAA in my opinion, but they are letting and have been letting a large part of the community die off. The ESO community is one of the best I have seen in any game, and it's just sad to see part of that community die off for no great reason. And it's sad to see the game I love lose one community to gain a new community.
A lot of the people I used to play beside are now playing beside me in a different game. None of them, not a single one, doubts the potential of ESO. This game has incredible potential, absolutely incredible, but for some reason it's not being realized. It's not being done. I hate to see that. I really hope this game finally gets the investment it needs to reach it's true potential because I know it can accomplish some amazing things.Retired.
Nord mDK2 -
Miszou✭✭✭✭✭
✭I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
I love these threads where all these armchair developers try to tell me (the actual real world developer) how there is no way for me to tell if a program isn't up to snuff.
I only need to be half awake to compile you a comprehensive list of things one could do to improve the ESO Client as well as the overall Client/Server architecture, the Client/Server communication and most importantly, the Server implementation itself.
@SirAndy If you're an "actual real world developer" (like me), then I clearly wasn't referring to you personally as an armchair developer, so just laugh and move on.
0 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭Either make the necessary changes and get in someone who knows how to fix the problem or take the server offline for a week or two and test, retest, retest, retest, until the game is stable and the performance issues minimised. You are happy to take our subscription, so give us a game we can be proud of again. I KNOW you can do it!
Just FYI, as a software professional with a similar develop/test/deploy cycle I can tell you that the "take the server offline while you fix it" approach does no good whatsoever and -- especially on things like lag and dropped connections -- actually hinders finding the problem and resolving it. Anything like that that can be done offline already IS being done on an internal test server (not the PTS) that we never see but that is set up identically to the production server. But finding lag requires a system running under full load.
I know it seems to make sense if you are not a professional software developer but when you do iterative development in a modern RAD environment it just does not work that way.
Bringing in an expert consultant, OTOH, can help you locate some illusive issues. Very expensive if you get the ones who are good enough to actually help, and it's a bit of a hit or miss deal, but sometimes that can be the magic bullet for very illusive issues.ContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master1 -
Justice31st✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree. It has been over a year and the number one PvP complaint is still in this game; the Cyrodil lag. All coders should be fired and replaced."The more you know who you are, and what you want, the less you let things upset you."0 -
ProfessorKittyhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've said it once and I'll say it again. They should sell the rights to ESO to a company that's made mmo's before and rebuild it from the ground up. It's been clear since early on the devs have no clue how to fix the countless number of bugs brought into this game with nearly every patch and content update. It's bugs on top of bugs on top of bugs.4 -
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Blackbird71 wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.
Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.
I've purchased products as inexpensive as ~$20 that carried 3-5 year warranties; price is irrelevant here. You are the one who asked about car repairs for free, you were given a valid and credible answer, and then you made a poor excuse to dismiss it. If you're going to be disingenuous or intellectually dishonest, then there is no point discussing anything with you.
Price is very relevant. I lose more change in my car each month than ESO costs me. Its called perspective. First world problems. Etc.1 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.
Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.
I've purchased products as inexpensive as ~$20 that carried 3-5 year warranties; price is irrelevant here. You are the one who asked about car repairs for free, you were given a valid and credible answer, and then you made a poor excuse to dismiss it. If you're going to be disingenuous or intellectually dishonest, then there is no point discussing anything with you.
Price is very relevant. I lose more change in my car each month than ESO costs me. Its called perspective. First world problems. Etc.
Maybe you should park somewhere else, and lock your car. Edited by Elsonso on April 15, 2016 2:14AMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus4 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭ContraTempo wrote: »Bringing in an expert consultant, OTOH, can help you locate some illusive issues. Very expensive if you get the ones who are good enough to actually help, and it's a bit of a hit or miss deal, but sometimes that can be the magic bullet for very illusive issues.
Warning! Incoming unsolicited grammar nitpick!
"illusive" =/= "elusive"
I'm pretty sure you meant the latter, not the former.jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.
Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.
I've purchased products as inexpensive as ~$20 that carried 3-5 year warranties; price is irrelevant here. You are the one who asked about car repairs for free, you were given a valid and credible answer, and then you made a poor excuse to dismiss it. If you're going to be disingenuous or intellectually dishonest, then there is no point discussing anything with you.
Price is very relevant. I lose more change in my car each month than ESO costs me. Its called perspective. First world problems. Etc.
Then I strongly suggest that you take what you would spend on ESO for a month and buy a new pair of pants without so many holes in the pockets; it will save you money in the long run.
But you are again sidetracking from the point and avoiding the issue which you originally brought up. You are the one who implied that guarantees of product quality only existed for items over $20,000. My response (and the responses of others) showed that this point is untrue, and that price is not a required factor for the existence of product warranties and guarantees of functionality/quality which result in repairs or replacement at no cost to the consumer, and so for this purpose the price is in fact irrelevant.
Offering amusing (and likely exaggerated) stories makes none of that untrue, and is only a further disingenuous attempt to redirect the conversation away from the fact that you were proven wrong.
1 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.
Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.
I've purchased products as inexpensive as ~$20 that carried 3-5 year warranties; price is irrelevant here. You are the one who asked about car repairs for free, you were given a valid and credible answer, and then you made a poor excuse to dismiss it. If you're going to be disingenuous or intellectually dishonest, then there is no point discussing anything with you.
Price is very relevant. I lose more change in my car each month than ESO costs me. Its called perspective. First world problems. Etc.
The same change you lost in your car i could take to the store a purchase a usb stick with. Which i could get a warranty with. Again all it takes is a company to stand behind the product.
Edited by vyndral13preub18_ESO on April 15, 2016 6:08PM2 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well). 0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.2 -
ContraTempo✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.
I wonder what the benefit is. How many bots do they catch? 1000 a day? 100? 10? Maybe 1 a day? This seems like a pretty hefty price to pay for something that catches 1 bot a day. Or 10. But I'm guessing it's even less than 1 a day. And I have to wonder how many of those would be reported by players anyway.
ContraTempo
Carpe DM
Seize the Dungeon Master0 -
WalkingLegacy✭✭✭✭✭
✭ContraTempo wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.
I wonder what the benefit is. How many bots do they catch? 1000 a day? 100? 10? Maybe 1 a day? This seems like a pretty hefty price to pay for something that catches 1 bot a day. Or 10. But I'm guessing it's even less than 1 a day. And I have to wonder how many of those would be reported by players anyway.
If they just had a couple mods that logged into the campaign's to catch botters and investigate hack reports and shut of the anti-bot/hack in PvP... I wonder how well that would go. Worth testing me thinks.
Repurpose some of these forum moderators that are just threatening us with bans all day into in-game moderators.Edited by WalkingLegacy on April 15, 2016 11:29PM0 -
JadeNaria✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?
Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.
"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.
I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.
When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?
This this and all of this thank you! I am sick and tired of people suggesting "well why don't you get a job there and fix it since your an expert"? What a retroactive, devolved manner of thinking.
In all its simplicity you imply that a customer should apply for a position at company to provide themselves customer service.....
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2 -
JadeNaria✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Sallington wrote: »I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.
Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?
Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.
"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.
I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.
When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?
That's not what I said.
It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".
So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?
There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.
What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.
The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.
Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.
That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.
I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.
My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.
Because they are receiving payment for their services. Ongoing payment. Ongoing service. Simplicity itself. Where does the confusion in that lie?Trueflame or Haderus NA PC AD
Talia Shade VR10 Stamina Nightblade
Divinity Day VR16 Magicka Sorc
Amaria Day VR16 Magicka DK
Kali Day Level 28 Magicka Templar - Playing the most now
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Mizery Records Raiding Guild- Member
Resilient PVP Guild - Member
SAVE ESO PVP, WE MATTER.
#FIXPVP
1 -
Kanar✭✭✭✭✭
✭ContraTempo wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.
I wonder what the benefit is. How many bots do they catch? 1000 a day? 100? 10? Maybe 1 a day? This seems like a pretty hefty price to pay for something that catches 1 bot a day. Or 10. But I'm guessing it's even less than 1 a day. And I have to wonder how many of those would be reported by players anyway.
I take it you weren't here when the game first released and bots outnumbered players? Every public dungeon you went in had a stack of templars sitting on the boss spawn spamming puncturing strikes, and harvest nodes would disappear as you bent over to collect them.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ContraTempo wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.
I wonder what the benefit is. How many bots do they catch? 1000 a day? 100? 10? Maybe 1 a day? This seems like a pretty hefty price to pay for something that catches 1 bot a day. Or 10. But I'm guessing it's even less than 1 a day. And I have to wonder how many of those would be reported by players anyway.
I take it you weren't here when the game first released and bots outnumbered players? Every public dungeon you went in had a stack of templars sitting on the boss spawn spamming puncturing strikes, and harvest nodes would disappear as you bent over to collect them.
I was. It was the first sign for me that, while ZOS does fix things, they take so long to do it that it is easy to mistake what they are doing for inactivity. There is no sense of urgency. No sense that they are concerned. They could jump on things like bots, which are still in the game today, but instead they just let the bots run for hours, even days, with no apparent interest. Back in 2014, it took them days to get people into the game to break up the bots. Now, I guess they don't even do that.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
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X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WalkingLegacy wrote: »ContraTempo wrote: »WalkingLegacy wrote: »I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.
I wonder what the benefit is. How many bots do they catch? 1000 a day? 100? 10? Maybe 1 a day? This seems like a pretty hefty price to pay for something that catches 1 bot a day. Or 10. But I'm guessing it's even less than 1 a day. And I have to wonder how many of those would be reported by players anyway.
If they just had a couple mods that logged into the campaign's to catch botters and investigate hack reports and shut of the anti-bot/hack in PvP... I wonder how well that would go. Worth testing me thinks.
Repurpose some of these forum moderators that are just threatening us with bans all day into in-game moderators.
If they would go back to the old ways, that would mean stuff which belongs on the server would be outsource to the client machine and with it open the ability to cheat - I doubt you want to be frozen by an enemy, so that you can do nothing at all, while he is fighting you. This is what it could be like - see Archeage as an example, where some hackers freeze you in place and just kill you - there is no fight anymore, just a hack. Be happy, that ZOS has fought that, it would not be fun otherwise.0 -
GaldorP✭✭✭✭✭
It was a lot better, but there was server lag for the entire zone sometimes even before that patch happened (less frequently but it happened). And it was around that time when the zergball meta really got out of hand as well. But yes, that patch certainly made everything a lot worse (the fps drop issues were a catastrophe, I was not willing to do PvP anymore because the client performance was so bad, even on minimum settings, and it took ZOS weeks to fix that; server performance was worse after this patch as well and has stayed that way since then).WalkingLegacy wrote: »I've played MMOGs in the early days so I've seen far far worse Server performance is pretty good in my opinion, but the code/client/game design was clearly not optimized enough for large scale PvP (or PvE; when there are too many players fighting in large groups in the same zone there's problems as well).
The game did just fine before the anti-bot /hack software was implemented and the FPS problems happened after the lighting patch.
YouTube the original siege battles in Cyrodiil or when huge guilds met up. No lag then.
Edit: This comment is not in response to @WalkingLegacy, but for anyone who doesn't know: The patch that made (almost) everything a lot worse for PvP was patch v1.2.3:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/113161/patch-notes-v1-2-3.
It introduced some other new systems apart from Improved Interior Lighting: Jerkins, Armor and Weapons in the world could be picked up, a FOV slider for first-person mode, and the character deletion limit (and possibly - as some suspect - new anti-bot code not mentioned in the patch notes).
Edit 2: When I said server performance is decent in ESO compared to MMOGs in the old days (in my previous post) I was refering to MMOGs I played 10-15 years ago. Those had a lot more server problems back then than ESO's servers (hardware) have now. The ESO servers are well-maintained and the team reacts fast when there are problems with the entire server (for example when the server is hit by a ddos attack). The problems we see in PvP (and rarely in large groups in PvE) are with the code, in my opinion, and not with the server hardware or maintenance. This is in response to the original post of this thread which mentions 4 server crashes in 2-3 weeks which is really not that big a deal, in my opinion (I've seen far worse in other MMOGs).Edited by GaldorP on April 16, 2016 9:52AM0
