Your coders simply aren't up to the task

Tandor

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Agreed OP.

Would like to hear what Matt Firor has to say but he is off in lala land praising all the brown nosers on Reddit that pretend nothing is wrong with the game.

For many people there really is nothing wrong with the game. Those mainly PvPers who are suffering badly need to acknowledge that, as even PvP is being conducted by plenty of players quite happily even tho' for others there are performance issues. Some players report being kicked out of the game immediately on login, yet the presence of plenty of players in the game clearly indicates that it is either an issue at the players' end or else something at the game's end that is only affecting some players. As an example, some PC EU players have reported problems today that have been acknowledged by ZOS and addressed, yet others have played through the day without such problems. I've personally played on that server today for getting on for 3 hours spread over a couple of sessions through the day and I didn't have any issues nor, seemingly, did the mass of other players I saw in a variety of zones.

It isn't a case of brown nosing, it really is the case that these performance issues are not affecting all players and never have done. They do affect some PvPers, perhaps many PvPers, but not all. They may affect some PvEers, but probably only a few and in particular those in group dungeons etc. I'm one of the players who has never been affected by performance issues of any kind having played on the PC EU server since launch. I don't PvP, and I don't do group dungeons except for the odd solo foray, so I'm not in the worst affected categories, but those affected do need to acknowledge that the issues they have with the game are genuinely not affecting everyone. I hope those issues get fixed, and get fixed soon, but if the affected players want to retain the support of the unaffected players in calling for that then they need to stop accusing them of brown nosing, or even worse, lying.

There are some real issues with the game, and ZOS are working on them, I have no doubt on either of those points, but calling the whole game broken or calling for it to be closed down while it's fixed is simply unjustified, as is any suggestion that ZOS have broken any laws or contracts. If some have run out of patience with the problems they're encountering then there is nothing to stop them suspending their playing of the game but there is no justification in suspending the game itself.

Miszou

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Miszou wrote: »

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

Unless you're really good at judging your audience, in which case you would only use that line if you suspect your mechanic is a sci-fi fan.

Then, you become instant BFFs and talk about your favorite show and your mechanic decides that you're actually pretty cool and he's going to really take care of you.

Hey, it COULD happen...

Autolycus

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

WalkingLegacy

@Tandor

I hardly PvP anymore since it's such a piece of *** mess right now. It's embarrassing for a company to even have this problem ongoing for this long.

Having said that, I've solely been focusing on PvE and it isn't no perfect spring weather like you people think it is. It is way better off over PvP sure, but it isn't butter smooth either.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

Sallington

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

So the newest excuse for why Cyrodil performance has been crap for over 1.5 years is "It's free, so who cares?" ?

The performance was crap while the game was still subscription based, just FYI.

Autolycus

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

A very narrow perspective imho. How many people dropped $$ on crowns last week to take advantage of exp stacking? How many people just bought the TG dlc? How many people are subbing? Last I checked, we didn't just invest a small sum once two years ago. Whether or not you sub, you're still paying for broken content.

Anyway, I think you were looking for the individual that brought the mechanic thing up in the first place. I clearly stated in the post you directly quoted that the metaphor is irrelevant; the concept still applies. Although you ignored the concept altogether... I think you got distracted by all the giraffes.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Villious

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I'm no developer, so I'm not gonna presume to tell them what they need to do. But I do know, that in playing MMO's for the past 18 years, I've never seen another AAA MMO that is so bug ridden and has as many issues, for so long as ESO. That much I know. Just my opinion, and why I stopped subbing, and giving them money.

HoloYoitsu

Guys, don't waste your time, @jamesharv2005ub17_ESO is a well known troll.

Elsonso

I just have to say that this is the most entertaining thread on the forum is a good long time.

Tandor

Autolycus wrote: »

How many people dropped $$ on crowns last week to take advantage of exp stacking? How many people just bought the TG dlc? How many people are subbing?

Not the people who consider the game unplayable and totally broken, and its developers guilty of not caring, presumably.

JD2013

jnjdun_ESO

b92303008rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They have the best writers, audio and content designers as well as the worst coders and combat designers in the industey.

PvP team? PvP in ESO was dead a long time ago. When ws the last time Brian Wheeler made any major comment or announcment?

Last time Wheeler was seen he was in a dark corner hugging his knees and mumbling incoherently to himself whilst rocking back and forth.

Rune_Relic

I sometimes wonder if the devs there are given the usual insufficent budget, trying to right the world with no resources to do so.
I wonder if they ruefully read these threads and smile in despair at the effort they put in to do nothing more than tread water.
Hands tied behind their back.
Mouths tightly zipped.

We really have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
For all we know the Devs may be begging for resources that are persistantly denied by the suits.
Made to wear a brave face and false smile as they try and muddle through with what they have.
The show must go on.
Everyone needs to put food on the table at the end of the day.

Should I admire the dignity of those working with a broken heart that do what they do inspite of everything in their way ?
Should I assume the staff are simply incompetent and dont care and love trolling the customers in a multitude of sadistic ways ?
Should I accept that everything is hunky dory apart from a tiny little problem with pvp that noone wants to play anyway ?
The truth is I dont know what to believe anymore really.
Perhaps existing customers are expendable as long as new customers keep arriving.
So retaining jaded customers is simply not important to their model.

Regardless. I think anything they do offline can be done while online.....so not much point shutting down the servers and cutting out any funding.

Networks had been under attack across the US and EU at the time of the ZOS DDOS.
If a group decides to targets ZOS hosts rather than ZOS directly, there really isnt much ZOS can do except ride out the storm.

/shrugs.
Its hard to be patient though.
At some point you simply have to write something off.
After 2 years of persistant performance degradation my patience hangs by a thread.
Throw in design changes that move further and further away from what I bought into and hoped to see expanded.
Add in game philosophy that has evolved into something I am uncomfortable with.

On the other hand 1000s are no doubt ecstatic that the part of the game they play works like a dream for the most part.
Then all the new players that see all the shiny bling on the surface, ignorant of what lies beneath.
Perhaps it is time for the old guard to move on and abandon their dream or suck it up and embrace the new ESO for what it is and will become.

I congratulate ZOS on the digital world they created anyway. No matter what. They at least deserve that.
No regrets.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

JD2013 wrote: »

That is one long ass day. Where do i sign up?

L2Pissue

working 8 hours shift on fixing PvP lag be like:
1st hour: saying good morning to all staff and drinking coffee
2nd hour: make sure you drank enough coffee
3rd hour: setting in-front-of computer thinking where to start
4th****** lunch break ********
5th hour: adjusting desktop seat. for some reason, sitting is not comfortable
6th hour: asking question: "what can i code so it looks like i coded something today?"
7th hour: code 200 lines and keep testing them until 8th hour
8th hour: looks like my coding is pretty buggy. even though it does have 8 invalid arguments, will pass it through
9th hour: why the hell im sitting here still? oh to make it sound like im a dedicated employee working extra
in car back home: LOL WHAT A DAY I THOUGHT I MADE SOMETHING!

WalkingLegacy

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

Lol,

Besides the fact that the community has linked you how PvP use to work. How this game advertised massive PvP battles. How this game advertised PvP in general.

Besides the fact that the game is B2P.

And besides the fact that most of us are telling you we sub.

Ha.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

100 hours a day is some serious hardcore gaming.

Arthur_Spoonfondle

Deleted.

Wreuntzylla

lordrichter wrote: »

wonkydog wrote: »

I disagree. If you ask them to fix your car - you don't have to know what is wrong to know it is broken - and then it breaks down on the way home you are well within your rights to say hire better staff

If people treated their car mechanic like the forum is treating ZOS, they would be doing a lot of walking.

This is mostly because the mechanic would hand them their keys and tell them to get lost.

What do they teach kids in school nowadays? If you get ripped off, lump it? The real world doesn't work that way.

No auto shop would routinely return broken vehicles to their customers and get away with it. In the U.S., there are several consumer protection laws dealing with autos, and some states actually have laws directly targeting automotive repair (e.g., Illinois Automotive Repair Act).

To put this in a perspective most people can understand, if a gaming company had sold their game to another company who intended to license it to individual consumers, profound PvP lag might be a material breach and if game company did not fix the lag within a commercially reasonable time period (Hint: less than 2 years...), the game company would almost certainly get a beatdown. Why would anyone think that a consumer would have less recourse? Of course, the consumer would spend much more money than it is probably worth, which is why there are few cases on the subject.

Mojmir

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.

Regardless of money spent, it's about reputation, accountability,integrity. Stand behind your product and so will your customers.

Blackbird71

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.

I've purchased products as inexpensive as ~$20 that carried 3-5 year warranties; price is irrelevant here. You are the one who asked about car repairs for free, you were given a valid and credible answer, and then you made a poor excuse to dismiss it. If you're going to be disingenuous or intellectually dishonest, then there is no point discussing anything with you.

Bam_Bam

Not long gotten in from work. Wasn't expecting this thread to have done much haha. A lot of people have taken my words out of context - "armchair developer"? Nope, not me (that would be my brother who works for TT Fusion ).
Still I'm glad people are discussing the game - such passion shows how much most of us love it, warts and all, and most importantly care about it and the future of it.
I REALLY regret the title of the thread and I would have changed it a long time ago - I certainly didn't mean to be hurtful; or anything like that, although that is how it seems to have come across - SINCERE APOLOGIES. i know that most production houses have a super-tough job to do. I fervently believe that something is definitely broken and causing the issues to continue - but that doesn't mean that they aren't working on them.

Happy hunting all

acw37162

You have already assumed the problem is internal and not external.

Ichnaea

No fixes until "next major update"?

PVP'ers be like

MasterSpatula

The mechanic analogy is interesting, because if I bring a '78 Pinto in to any mechanic in the world, I have to accept that there's only so much he can do.

Tommy1979AtWar

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

I love these threads. They're always full of armchair developers and Walmart Greeters who could do a better job in their sleep.

Taking the game offline for a week would solve precisely nothing, other than to chase away a good chunk of the player base. Do you really think they don't test anything? Even if you ignore the existence of the PTS, do you really think they just bang on the keyboard and throw *** out the door?

Software development (especially on a project as large and complex as this) is a rigorously managed process. It's not a bunch of college kids scratching out code on cave walls and having ***-waving contests over who can write the most obfuscated nonsense.

"Fix the Lag" is, by and large, a silly thing to say if you have even the most rudimentary understanding of how the internet works. But that doesn't stop people from saying it about every online game ever written, ever.

I tell my mechanic to fix my car, right? I don't know how it works, but I know it's broken.

When did this BS start that you need to be able to do the devs job for them, to even be able to suggest what's wrong?

That's not what I said.

It's one thing to say "fix my car", it's quite another to say "The flux capacitor is broken and you guys need to hire better mechanics".

So naturally, everyone who comments on it who may indeed be a credible source of information is automatically unqualified to make suggestions. I'm not arguing the specific suggestion that you are criticizing; rather, I would agree in large part that taking the game offline altogether may not be the best course of action. But then again, it might. Even in your specific example: this happens all the time. It's really not uncommon for someone to go into their mechanic and tell them what's wrong with it. If they are, in fact, someone who is qualified to diagnose the issue and choose to pass that information on to whomever is responsible for fixing it, it's usually a welcomed bit of feedback. That is what we're doing here, right? Providing feedback?

There are people who play this game who are extremely well qualified to pass judgment as it pertains to code and server stability. Sure, not everyone who acts credible is actually credible, but grouping and generalizing is not good practice, regardless of which side of the spectrum you may be on.

What tends to happen in these types of discussion, is that a few people will grab hold of something and wave it around with an air of authority. The mythical "Netcode" is a great example of this. It makes as much sense to ask a mechanic to fix your flux capacitor as it does for players to ask that "the netcode" or "lag" be fixed.

The very nature of the internet means that lag will always exist and cannot simply be "fixed". On top of that, the "netcode" is more than likely a third party library (just as the Unreal engine is a 3rd party graphics library, there are libraries for all sorts of things) and most of the network stack is buried in the operating system anyway.

Feedback can be given (eg, "Performance in Cyrodiil is unacceptable when there are lots of players in the area"), but suggestions as to the cause of the problem ("The netcode is bad") are nothing but speculation.

That is my point. You can tell the mechanic what is wrong with your car, but the minute you start suggesting that the bosons are out of alignment with the sprocket torsion armature, he's going to ignore you.

I see your point and agree to some extent. My point is that this is not always how it works. We can stick with the mechanic metaphor here, but this concept is not exclusive to that particular context. There are plenty of people who would welcome feedback that seems credible, and in many cases a concrete suggestion may indeed be what leads to a fix. Discretion is key, but outright ignoring everyone simply because they are not the assumed experts is just as bad imho.

My idea would be to find a new mechanic. Seriously tho comparing a video game to a car is not even apples to oranges. Its apples to giraffes. Game is what it is. For the cost I cannot udnerstand most of these complaints. When was the last time they repaired your car for free because you spent money there two years ago.

The last time i purchased a new car. Or any car part that had a warranty long enough. But then the company would have to be willing to stand behind the product.

Last time you bought a car with a warranty I bet you spent in excess of $20,000. If I had spent that much on a car you can bet I would demand better performance. This is a game tho. Not a car.

I bought a toaster 3 years ago that came with a free 5 year warranty, the company I bought it from obviously has faith in their product and the manufacturing staff who assembled it, what's your point exactly james?
Are you saying we should only expect a working product from zos if we spend an excess of 20k?