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Do you think ESO should be considered an "Elder Scrolls" game?
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Open world is relative as well.
You can go to zones, which are not meant for your current level. That was as well the case with Morrowind and Skyrim, not so much for Oblivion, there the world scaled with you and you could go to locations which were not really meant for you to explore at your level. I remember that in Morrowind I tried early on to get to the huge vulcano, but I had a hard time to get through the ash lands and got my a.. handed back to me a couple of times before I got any near to the vulcanic area, just to find out, that there is no chance yet to fight any of the mob there.
So yes, it was open world, but that did not mean, that I could actually survive everywhere at every level. Whereas in Oblivion you could even get through the main quest as a low level - the world scaled with you.
I both hated and loved oblivion for that...This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
The_Lex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
I can see your point about custom classes. It's been a long time since I played Oblivion or Morrowind. I usually did the custom class thing, except, even then, my customizations were basically variations of the predetermined classes. However, I suspect that the OP is thinking about Skyrim's classless system, since most people who argue that ESO is not a true TES game usually use Skyrim as the gold standard.2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I chose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.Edited by Lysette on April 11, 2016 2:28PM1 -
Madness1✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Do I think this should be considered an Elder Scrolls game?
Yes, yes I do. Similar world, same races, and the similar lore all shout Elder Scrolls. Though I'll be honest I don't think ESO is up to the standard (which let's be honest lately isn't that high) of the Elder Scrolls series. I think they dumbed down Elder Scrolls because Zeni was too scarred the game wasn't going to sell or have that much longevity without falling into tropes the WOW clones fell into. At the same time not realising it was those tropes that killed the clones in the first place. If you go back years ago and you'll see what ESO was originally planned to be and you'll see something fantastic, something more like an Elder Scrolls title.
It's because of these changes that I don't think ESO deserves to be part of the universe, yet I cannot deny it doesn't fit. So I hope at the end they close the game off with a Dragon Break.Edited by Madness1 on April 11, 2016 2:33PMWhat is the color of night?
What is the color of the fox?
Hail Sithis.0 -
BossXV✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Its the diference between Final fantasy and final fantasy online, still final fantasy2 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Resipsa131 wrote: »Skyrim didn't have spellcrafting and the spells that it did have were more shallow than what we have in ESO. So by OP's reasoning should we consider Skyrim an elderscrolls game.
Indeed. Then again, none of the TES games had world PvP so they can't be considered an elder scrolls game either as the lack of that in ESO is given as a factor.1 -
craybest✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.ESO is already a Elder scrolls game, no doubt about it. plus is shares its lore. which is a big thing to be considered part of the series. the rest can change from game to game. If you compare Final fantasy 1 to final fantasy 15 you might not find too many similarities, but they're still part of the same series.
Besides we still don't know how many of the ES things might get to here.0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively more since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)Edited by Shunravi on April 11, 2016 2:58PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Hope499✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Well, it does not have some of the things you said because its a ONLINE game....he world is still ES, just some of the options of things to do are not there.
Instead of housing and spell crafting, you have guilds and friends to play with.
Worth the trade IMO.Tripped over my friends bra.....
....
....
..she is always setting booby traps!1 -
EsoRecon✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Ok guys just because the gameplay isn't like normal elder scrolls games doesn't make ESO not an elder scrolls game.Xbox One [ NA ]
Gamertag - Zyzz II Legacy
Stam Sorc & Stam NB PvP
(I'm Just Here To 1vX)0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.Edited by Lysette on April 11, 2016 2:56PM0 -
wenchmore420b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »Viewing the vote, I feel those who voted yes never played an Elder Scrolls game !
- Combat is nice but... The main characteristic of an Elder Scroll is : it's meant to be played in first person view !
- An Elder Scrolls game is a big zone with no collision walls inside. If ESO had been an Elder Scrolls game, it would have had 3 zones real time loaded...And big walls around each saying "you cannot go there"
- You can play the way you want : as it was announced at start there should be no class but only archetypes (gameplay style). There should have been one of each trinity skill line in each archetype. because an real Elder Scrolls game has no trinity. This is not the case anymore.
- Races should not give you real advantage whatever the role/archetype you choose.
- The game should be playable without compass : I see some npc not spawning for entire seconds (sometime more that 15s)... on me because I'm at the right place. an Elder Scrolls game have no npc lags
- I'm sure there are many other things but I'm hungry
I voted yes, and "yes", I have played TES since Daggerfall.
- TES was great in 1st person, but let's start with the main mantra here.- "Single Player vs MMO". I never played MMO's before, but was TES fan forever. Got my buddy from WoW to play at launch. He told me to use 3rd person. I wouldn't listen. I died a lot. You have to see your surroundings, especially in PvP, so I now use both. You have that option. Want all 1st person view,go for it.
- Walls and zones, you can go to any zone you like! Just play the game, do the main story, and you can go where ever you want. The only "Walls" are to areas that are still in development for future content. i.e. The Adamantine Tower.
- You can play the way you want, but what you call "A Real TES game" doesnt have group content and boss's with 4 million HP. In ESO, run a hybrid, fine! And yes, high level Vr16 content needs 2 DPS, 1 healer and 1 tank, but you can have a Khajiit Sorc Tank, or a dunmer DK healer, so yea, you can play as you want, especially before end-game vet content.
- Your "Real TES Games" had Argonians that could breath underwater, Dunmers and Bretons with magic boosts, etc. If any thing, they dumbed down Race Abilities in ESO.
- Playable w/o a compass? All the TES games had a compass so not sure where you are going with that. The NPC's not spawning immediately is to help with the long load times. Waiting on the black silhouettes to render is better than sitting in load screen, imo.
I have played The Elder Scrolls for over 15 years, I have over 3700hrs in ESO not counting Beta, and Yes, this is a Elder Scrolls Game.Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP ~Doesn't matter any more
NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
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#MOREHOUSINGSLOTS“When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”
_Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)1 -
Kalfis✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.So why do people not think ESO isn't an "Elder Scrolls" game? Do they think having *** combat and a static world is Elder Scrolls, yet having good combat and more alive world isn't?
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.Edited by Shunravi on April 11, 2016 3:14PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Yes because they put The Elder Scrolls in the title which is a trademarked phrase.3 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.Edited by Lysette on April 11, 2016 3:17PM0 -
Usara✭✭✭✭No, ESO is nothing like an Elder Scrolls game.Since the Beta, I thought ESO was nothing like an Elder Scrolls (I played a bit of Daggerfall and Oblivion, and Morrowind and Skyrim extensively - and each at their own time release)
I am surprised to see modders of the series actually feel like ESO is a true ES. Well, it it would not be the first time I've been wrong/in denial
Maybe it's just because I don't play MMO and single player the same way at all, so I can't get the same feels ^_^
But I guess some people actually nailed it : it is an Elder Scrolls spin off, and not part of the series.
What? Lead? Me? No, no, no. No leading. Bad things happen when I lead. We get lost, people die, and the next thing you know I’m stranded somewhere without any pants.Usara v531 - Usara2 v322 - Escouade Sauvage - PC - EU - EP
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Ondres Hlaalu - House Hlaalu Skooma Trader (Dunmer NB, dd magicka)1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Since the Beta, I thought ESO was nothing like an Elder Scrolls (I played a bit of Daggerfall and Oblivion, and Morrowind and Skyrim extensively - and each at their own time release)
I am surprised to see modders of the series actually feel like ESO is a true ES. Well, it it would not be the first time I've been wrong/in denial
Maybe it's just because I don't play MMO and single player the same way at all, so I can't get the same feels ^_^
But I guess some people actually nailed it : it is an Elder Scrolls spin off, and not part of the series.
I don't know why you think that - go back 1000 years in the real world - and earth would feel like a quite alien place to be at.
Edit: and from there go back another 1000 years - and the world is again very different - with running water in homes and floor heating even, a working sewer system - things they do not have 1000 years later.Edited by Lysette on April 11, 2016 3:39PM2 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
(Edit: I have counter examples to what I'm saying, but I will still argue they are more restricted than they should be)
Edited by Shunravi on April 11, 2016 3:42PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.Since the Beta, I thought ESO was nothing like an Elder Scrolls (I played a bit of Daggerfall and Oblivion, and Morrowind and Skyrim extensively - and each at their own time release)
I am surprised to see modders of the series actually feel like ESO is a true ES. Well, it it would not be the first time I've been wrong/in denial
Maybe it's just because I don't play MMO and single player the same way at all, so I can't get the same feels ^_^
But I guess some people actually nailed it : it is an Elder Scrolls spin off, and not part of the series.
I don't know why you think that - go back 1000 years in the real world - and earth would feel like a quite alien place to be at.
Especially with things like deforistation, mining, dam building, canal building, and cities.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
You could do that in Oblivion as well - just in Skyrim you need a free hand for a spell.1 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
You could do that in Oblivion as well - just in Skyrim you need a free hand for a spell.
Well, yea, I should clarify I am also referring to quantities of things. That is certainly, as is, far from my best argument.Edited by Shunravi on April 11, 2016 3:45PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
You could do that in Oblivion as well - just in Skyrim you need a free hand for a spell.
Well, yea, I should clarify I am also referring to quantities of things.
And as far as bow skills go, those are lame in ESO - shooting a poison arrow with a skill - not with the bow - how lame is that.0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
You could do that in Oblivion as well - just in Skyrim you need a free hand for a spell.
Well, yea, I should clarify I am also referring to quantities of things.
And as far as bow skills go, those are lame in ESO - shooting a poison arrow with a skill - not with the bow - how lame is that.
I would love alchemical poisons. But they designed the skills and the crafting seperately it would seem.... Then disabled poisons. And it's sad.
I have to admit I was going to edit that part of what I said out, Because it was stupid and badly expressed
but whatever, I should have typed it as 'more then auto attacks and your equipped spell, you have more variety in what's on hand because we do not have the ability to pause the game. It feels more active and it's an aspect I enjoy. (And here I'm speaking vanilla game without mods.) And in the sp games spells were not reliant on what weapon you have.' Edited by Shunravi on April 11, 2016 3:52PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
You could do that in Oblivion as well - just in Skyrim you need a free hand for a spell.
Well, yea, I should clarify I am also referring to quantities of things.
And as far as bow skills go, those are lame in ESO - shooting a poison arrow with a skill - not with the bow - how lame is that.
I would love alchemical poisons. But they designed the skills and the crafting seperately it would seem.... Then disabled poisons. And it's sad.
I have to admit I was going to edit that part of what I said out, Because it was stupid and badly expressed but whatever, I should have typed it as 'more then auto attacks and your equipped spell, you have more variety in what's on hand because we do not have the ability to pause the game. It feels more active and it's an aspect I enjoy. (And here I'm speaking vanilla game without mods.)'
We are not disagreeing, we have just different ways of looking at and describing the same thing.
As far as poison crafting goes, we might see that in the near future - some of the comments Gina made in the live shows, it might be in the workings.Edited by Lysette on April 11, 2016 3:54PM0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.The_Patriarch wrote: »
@The_Patriarch, as someone who makes the 'classless' argument, I just want to clarify the perspective relates to the ability to create a custom class. True, it's still a class, but it's not so restrictive... And then that couples with the slackening armor and weapon class restrictions since arena.
What restrictions?- When I choose light armor in Oblivion for example, that gave me 25 skill points in that armor class, but that does not mean that I would have to wear light armor, I could as well wear no armor at all or heavy armor or mix it after my liking. I pretty much always had light armor as a main skill, nevertheless once I got the access to the mage's academy I used enchanted clothes and never again any armor - I just used light armor as a main skill to get a bit easier through the first few levels until I had access to the mage's academy. Then end of armor, comfortable enchanted clothes, which I did not have to repair, which were silent when sneaking and did not slow me down when running.
@Lysette, you both get and miss my point. In the context of classes in rpgs, there are always some form of restriction. And to say I chose X class would generally mean X armor, weapons, and abilities. However, you touch on another key aspect of the 'classless' argument. Excluding arena, and progressively less since then, TES games do not have these restrictions. This is why many view TES as classless. Because while you can choose a premade class, they only determine your leveling curve. And to add to that, being able to create your own class makes these obsolite.
It's honestly baffling to me that I have to keep explaining the perspective. Oh, and skyrim did have a player class. It was called 'dragonborn.'
@The_Patriarch, well, you see my problems arguing the perspective. It's part of the reason I wrote what I did in my Sig about skyrim. It's really annoying to keep having to explain that my perspective comes from the non restricted skill lines of the other games (since arena, and to a lesser extent daggerfall), instead of 'well skyrim didn't have classes, hurr durr durr.'
(Stupid auto correct)
I basically said this, because I never felt restricted by any "class", I do not even feel restricted to it in ESO, even it has classes. But what does that actually mean in practice?- I cannot use certain class related skills, they are a no-go then. But in practice there are lots of skills, which I could have, but where I might not put skill points in. And I do as well not say, that not choosing those would restrict me. So in this sense I see it as a classless system, even ESO has classes. Same goes for the other TES games. Being a mage did not mean that I would be able to cast any spell, which is in the game. I might just not have enough magicka due to birth sign, preferred attributes and race/gender choices I made (gender in Oblivion). Does that restrict me as a mage in practice?- Well, not really, I am just a different kind of mage, specializing in a different set of magic.
Well, exactly. And, yes, it is in reference to class restricted skills in ESO. As you point out, yes, choices do/ did define limits.But I think we both could agree that these limits aren't quite the same as the class restrictions in ESO. Even if those limits did effect what you could ultimately use....
But ultimately I'm just trying to explain the perspective because it seems everyone immediately points fingers at skyrim when it's brought up.
Skyrim has as well kind of class choices, even they are not called classes - but take Illusion for example - once you go with illusion you have to be dedicated to it or your spells will get useless pretty quickly. Choosing illusion is like a class choice in a way, if you do not stick with it, any perk point invested into it will get useless - maybe not those which lead to silent casting, but otherwise they would, if you don't stick with illusion and dedicate your perk points to it early on, those are wasted points. Illusion is extremely powerful, but it takes a dedicated mage to become an illusionist.
In my opinion, skyrim really shouldn't be part of the discussion because of reasons... I am not arguing for or defending skyrim. I am arguing for and defending the perspective.
But whatever.
I believe we are in total agreement here, I'm not sure if you are elaborating a point or misunderstanding me. The choices you make in-game effect your gameplay and effectiveness. Absolutely. The same could be said for all the games. However, you could still level destruction, conjuration, and illusion at the same time and remain effective with them. It would take longer to get them all to max, but you could do it all on one character. In eso, the nightblade has illusion (summon shades is conjuration, but could easily be classed under illusion and mysticism), the sorcerer has conjuration, and they both have (restricted) destruction. I'm not seeing sorcerers casting invisibility spells or fears alongside their clanfears (there is that synergy on the web spell though )
But one thing I will argue is I like how the combat system works here. You can cast magic while wielding swords, etc.
You could do that in Oblivion as well - just in Skyrim you need a free hand for a spell.
Well, yea, I should clarify I am also referring to quantities of things.
And as far as bow skills go, those are lame in ESO - shooting a poison arrow with a skill - not with the bow - how lame is that.
I would love alchemical poisons. But they designed the skills and the crafting seperately it would seem.... Then disabled poisons. And it's sad.
I have to admit I was going to edit that part of what I said out, Because it was stupid and badly expressed but whatever, I should have typed it as 'more then auto attacks and your equipped spell, you have more variety in what's on hand because we do not have the ability to pause the game. It feels more active and it's an aspect I enjoy. (And here I'm speaking vanilla game without mods.)'
We are not disagreeing, we have just different ways of looking at and describing the same thing.
As far as poison crafting goes, we might see that in the near future - some of the comments Gina made in the live shows, it might be in the workings.
I'm kinda arguing under the assumption that we are elaborating points tbh....
But, yea, I'm hopeful for the future of alchemy. I'm crossing my fingers for dark brotherhood.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.I always wonder how the balance of the game would have been if poisons that drain magica and stamina had been in the game from the start.... And also things like lightning draining magica, and frost draining stamina...
'This DK is 1 v X ing us!'
'Unload on him with frost and lightning! Stamina, get those poisons loaded!'
'It was much trickier for them to sustain their resources, now their dead!'
I'm actually worried that they will be overpowered now because they would have balanced the old game... Especially for those without cp.Edited by Shunravi on April 11, 2016 4:36PMThis one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.I suspect the OP expected a far different result than he's received. CP: 2078 ** ESO+ 2025 Content Pass ** ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
~~Started Playing: May 2015 | Stopped Playing: July 2025~~3 -
Katahdin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes, ESO should be considered an Elder Scrolls game.There arent many aspects of ESO that resemble what we all know as the "true" Elder Scrolls games, aside from the races and locales. No spell crafting, we are locked to choosing predetermined classes, no housing, no world pvp or just going where we want. The Elder Scrolls games have always been open world, not... this. Basically what we have is a cut rate MMO with an Elder Scrolls skin and lore pulled over the top.
Do you think that ESO should be considered an "Elder Scrolls" game?
The other games were single player. Some of the things in your list do not work well in an MMO. This game is massive in terms of code and detail. The server and our computers/consoles would not be able to handle a truly open world with the area the maps are currently and be able to track to movements, skills etc of 1000s of players at once. Think you have lag and FPS problems now? Multiply it 10x at least.
IMO spellcrafting will never work in an MMO. Too many variables to account for to make it a truly dynamic and balanced system.
Housing is coming, but I don't think the lack of it thus far makes it not an ES game.
I didnt play the other games. Did the other ES games have open world pvp? How do single player games do that? Seems like you threw that in because it's a feature you want.
Yes it's an Elder Scrolls MMO, not an Elder Scrolls single player game.Beta tester November 20133