ADarklore wrote: »

What I don't get is, just because some people get to a grind location first, do they think they therefore OWN that spot until they're done grinding? This is an MMO after all, not a single player game.

Just had my own, first ever, negative experience with this whole thing. I need to level one of my alts from level 44 to 50... I go to a well-known grind spot just to spend a bit of time to go up six levels... and there's four people grinding there. So, I join in, I follow their route, I help draw npcs into mob, etc. Then I receive a whisper... "Pls lv" WTH?!? So I respond with a not so pleasant retort... normally people INVITE to group, not act like they own the spot. So I continue on, not being a jerk but just joining in the hunt... I receive several more of the same "Pls lv" whispers. I ignore them. Then he sends me, "You're costing me 200 xp". Again, WTH? Then add me to your freakin group if you don't want to lose XP. I swear, the mentality of people these days. I want, I want, therefore the world revolves around me and should do what I want attitude.

Well, as someone who did one of the hardest grinds in any MMO I can tell you that it's more etiquette than they/you own a spot. or even common courtesy. What used to happen in the games I played is most of the time they/you would ask to join the group. If they/you said no then they/you would find another spot. Now days it's "I saw it, therefore it's mine. Get the *** out."

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LiquidSchwartz wrote: »

I dont claim spots i share

Lol... you should read your posts again and wonder why we strongly doubt that you have been acting with courtesy ingame.

You DO claim spots. You take QUESTING and EXPLORATION area away from people in an attempt to use those areas for YOUR OWN purposes which are not compatible with their original purposes. It's like telling people they cannot use the swimming pool for normal swimming because you are organising a water polo game there instead. And then you tell people they're noob at water polo and should either learn it or go away.
There are no such things as grind spots in the game. ALL areas are for exploration and questing / farming. What you call a grind spot is simply an area which is, in your opinion, suitable for farming XP instead of playing the game - if taking shortcuts is your choice, fine, but that's not the original design of those areas.
You are not sharing spots. You are taking away normal playing space from everyone else.
As long as grinders don't get that simple thing, there will always be conflicts.

As to other grinders not grinding the way you do - maybe their way is worse than yours, maybe it's better, but they have the right to play how they want. Find an instanced place to grind if you like.

Grinding has been a part of mmorpg's before quests were.

ADarklore wrote: »

Personally, I don't mind if someone comes into an area that I'm grinding and joins in... what does bother me is when they see that I'm grinding and intentionally start killing NPCs randomly. Since this is an MMO, they can do what they want... but if they aren't questing and they aren't grinding, then what are they doing other than intentionally griefing or trying to steal the area for themselves?

that is EXACTLY my point. as i said in my first post, it's not grinders OR questers that are the issue. it's the grind trolls that are the problem. The people deliberately f****** up other peoples gameplay for their own amusement. I don't mind if people come in and want to share the grind.. but deliberately being a nuisance is just trolling at its most pathetic.

grind trolls are both grinders AND questers. they might be a grinder that's become annoyed that another player is grinding THEIR area. so they go out of their way to ruin that players gameplay in some self centred hope that they'll leave the area out of frustration. they might also be a quester that has to farm mobs to obtain mats to complete something involved in a quest and can't do so because the grinder has pulled everything in sight (but this is far less common).

if i see someone with five or six mobs chasing them i don't run in and ruin their groove by kill stealing.. i find my own mobs. if a grind is overpopulated and i've dropped a scroll i log that character off until a time when its quieter and play another char doing something else. i don't claim ownership of an area just because i've dropped a scroll and i've never told anyone who is grinding an area to rack off - it's a MMO, they're shared resources.. people need to learn that. i've been yelled at in the past before by turds that just don't get that and still want to claim all mobs as their own.. those people should probably focus on moving out of moms basement as a priority in life.

Some people quest, some people grind. Personally I grind and that's solely because I have done every quest line 3 times over already.. so I'm damned if i'm doing it again.

i was grinding a particular V10 area last night which i won't name. a brazilian dude runs in and groups me straight away. i accept. we run the same short run for the next 1.5 hours. i'd dropped cake, stacked with psijic, stacked with group xp bonus, stacked with enlightenment. 43% through VR12, to 43% through VR14 in 1.5 hours. = 1.275 Million XP an hour. we both had to go, added friends, thanked each other.. and off we went. THAT is etiquette and doing it right.

be human.. not daedra.

ADarklore wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You take QUESTING and EXPLORATION area away from people in an attempt to use those areas for YOUR OWN purposes which are not compatible with their original purposes.

I do have to disagree with this. I understand where you're going, and I guess it depends on whether or not the quest or exploration involves these specific NPC. Because in most grind locations, the NPCs surrounding the area are just fluff, they're added simply to give a sense of the area, they aren't actually 'part of' the quest or have anything to do with exploration. I mean, do NPCs that are blocking a doorway count as part of the quest, or are they simply there as a part of the environment, like a chair. Because unless they are actually part of the quest, then I consider them simply XP points.

As I see it, it isn't 'part of the game's intention' to walk into an enemy NPC crowded area and kill everything... so it's hard to say that grinding an area that contains a large number of rapidly spawning enemy NPCs involves "taking away from quests or exploration' when the enemies have nothing to do with the actual quest. And if you want to explore, than wander around when the NPCs are dead. But what you seem to be saying is that players shouldn't utilize a system simply because you don't agree with it. Because, like I said, if the enemy NPCs don't have anything to do with the actual quest and are basically just environmental fillers... then why does it bother you if someone is utilizing that area to gain XP to level up instead of being forced to quest for XP if they don't like questing?

Personally, I don't mind if someone comes into an area that I'm grinding and joins in... what does bother me is when they see that I'm grinding and intentionally start killing NPCs randomly. Since this is an MMO, they can do what they want... but if they aren't questing and they aren't grinding, then what are they doing other than intentionally griefing or trying to steal the area for themselves?

If you spend time grinding instead of following the quests then perhaps you honestly don't realise that in a lot of these heavy mob areas are there because a stage of the quests in that region requires killing a certain number of those mobs - so yes it could be that they do need to kill those mobs blocking the doorway either as part of a quest... these NPCs very specifically DO form part of the quests in a lot of cases and by rotating and wiping them out you stop players following the quest lines and that shout at them in game when they try to kill enough to fulfil the quest goal because, to you, questing is now redefined in your head as griefing. And even when they do not they are still part of game and ZOS will expect layer to encounter a percentage of mobs as they level simply to add colour to the game - they do not intend, I think, for questers to be running through a landscape pre-littered with corpses just to go from quest marker to quest marker and have a brief chat.

I would suggest unless you know exactly what the requirements of the every quest in an area are then you carefully consider whether it may actually be you who, perhaps unintentionally, is the griefer.

LiquidSchwartz wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Man you people,

last time i bothered grinding i saw a lower vet level messing up the grind, i knew he was attempting to grind so i messaged him asking if he's grinding.

He replied with yes so i then messages him back saying he's not doing to properly and he's losing exp and that i'd show him, invited him to a group and grinded for 3 hours with him.

Youre obviously not on console and youre not in rkindeft where there are 30 people killing one mob

If there is that many people there you are doing it wrong you shouldnt be there. Find ancient grind spot and it will be empty and you will be fine

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

LiquidSchwartz wrote: »

I dont claim spots i share

Lol... you should read your posts again and wonder why we strongly doubt that you have been acting with courtesy ingame.

You DO claim spots. You take QUESTING and EXPLORATION area away from people in an attempt to use those areas for YOUR OWN purposes which are not compatible with their original purposes. It's like telling people they cannot use the swimming pool for normal swimming because you are organising a water polo game there instead. And then you tell people they're noob at water polo and should either learn it or go away.
There are no such things as grind spots in the game. ALL areas are for exploration and questing / farming. What you call a grind spot is simply an area which is, in your opinion, suitable for farming XP instead of playing the game - if taking shortcuts is your choice, fine, but that's not the original design of those areas.
You are not sharing spots. You are taking away normal playing space from everyone else.
As long as grinders don't get that simple thing, there will always be conflicts.

As to other grinders not grinding the way you do - maybe their way is worse than yours, maybe it's better, but they have the right to play how they want. Find an instanced place to grind if you like.

Where do tou guys get the idea that just because we are grinding that means were not playing the same game??
Have you been inside imperial city sewers? It isnt quests that bring other people there
Rkindaleft, yes there are quests but none of them require killing things to finish the quest
Im not interrupting their gameplay and dont mind them joining to get kills on mobs if they need them
Im saying when you go to there and pull mobs away and then when i say "hey please join us youll get more xp if you kill them all together and it keeps the rotation clean"

They reply with and ive said this like 7 times now
"F off i dont want assists"

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You take QUESTING and EXPLORATION area away from people in an attempt to use those areas for YOUR OWN purposes which are not compatible with their original purposes.

I do have to disagree with this. I understand where you're going, and I guess it depends on whether or not the quest or exploration involves these specific NPC. Because in most grind locations, the NPCs surrounding the area are just fluff, they're added simply to give a sense of the area, they aren't actually 'part of' the quest or have anything to do with exploration. I mean, do NPCs that are blocking a doorway count as part of the quest, or are they simply there as a part of the environment, like a chair. Because unless they are actually part of the quest, then I consider them simply XP points.

As I see it, it isn't 'part of the game's intention' to walk into an enemy NPC crowded area and kill everything... so it's hard to say that grinding an area that contains a large number of rapidly spawning enemy NPCs involves "taking away from quests or exploration' when the enemies have nothing to do with the actual quest. And if you want to explore, than wander around when the NPCs are dead. But what you seem to be saying is that players shouldn't utilize a system simply because you don't agree with it. Because, like I said, if the enemy NPCs don't have anything to do with the actual quest and are basically just environmental fillers... then why does it bother you if someone is utilizing that area to gain XP to level up instead of being forced to quest for XP if they don't like questing?

Personally, I don't mind if someone comes into an area that I'm grinding and joins in... what does bother me is when they see that I'm grinding and intentionally start killing NPCs randomly. Since this is an MMO, they can do what they want... but if they aren't questing and they aren't grinding, then what are they doing other than intentionally griefing or trying to steal the area for themselves?

If you spend time grinding instead of following the quests then perhaps you honestly don't realise that in a lot of these heavy mob areas are there because a stage of the quests in that region requires killing a certain number of those mobs - so yes it could be that they do need to kill those mobs blocking the doorway either as part of a quest... these NPCs very specifically DO form part of the quests in a lot of cases and by rotating and wiping them out you stop players following the quest lines and that shout at them in game when they try to kill enough to fulfil the quest goal because, to you, questing is now redefined in your head as griefing. And even when they do not they are still part of game and ZOS will expect layer to encounter a percentage of mobs as they level simply to add colour to the game - they do not intend, I think, for questers to be running through a landscape pre-littered with corpses just to go from quest marker to quest marker and have a brief chat.

I would suggest unless you know exactly what the requirements of the every quest in an area are then you carefully consider whether it may actually be you who, perhaps unintentionally, is the griefer.

Some areas where players normally grind have specific NPCs that only spawn when quests are active. Take Glenumbra zombies for example, where extra zombies spawn in specific spots that are tied to the quest but give the same XP as normal zombies. You can choose to kill them only when questing or kill the random ones scattered around the place, but if you're questing and have to kill X number of them, then decide to run around solo killing them instead of grouping them up you're disrupting those people who are in the area to grind.

Whenever I'm in a grind/quest area and I'm lucky enough to have run of the place, I don't mind people killing a few random NPCs and reducing my XP gains temporarily but when they're obviously questing and spend ages completely disrupting the rotation I get annoyed.

Runs wrote: »

Grinders complaining about etiquette........

They need to make a (snip...insert whatever duo/solo only phased area) solely for grinders. Where there would be no quests, huge open tracks of land with plenty to kill. And instanced per group. IMO as it stands right now grinders are nothing more than griefer, ruining the game for people who quest.

<applause> and.....

THIS! right chea! in bold @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

definitely needs to be a topic of development for each and all DLC.....perhaps in the duo only phased part of areas so ppl who want to grind can do so, in scaled areas so the game is playable and enjoyable otherwise.

I think this is a serious development opportunity....and if done, it eliminates the...why is this or that hard to farm and opens an opportunity for you all within your crown store for certain items like...Assistants, exp scrolls, etc.

---

@LiquidSchwartz

Not trying to get into the back n forth about elitist, and these players should do this..that or the 3rd.

I did want to only reply to you on topic.

I feel and also have noticed (as well as you prob have too from playing) that there are many different types of players in this game but it boils down to three distinct categories. PvE, PvP and End-Game.

PvE - These players may be more apt to feel discouraged, put off or rubbed the wrong way while playing or even grinding regardless of how they go about it. (I fall mostly here)

PvP - These players have the best zones for exp grinding in Cyrodil and IC however, its hazardous so due to the benefits of leveling fast in a non-harzadous zone(s), especially if they use real money or a substantial amount of in-game gold for exp modifiers, there are some who will grind in PvE areas and affect the PvE players. Nothing says they cant, but its just an observation when I am in grind areas or groups.

End-Game (PvE or PvP) - These players tend to play many parts of the game and its often important to these players to have best in slot, best buff, best everything....but this does require either grinding or repeating any repeatable content (which will at times lead them to grind spots)

I believe that if we only look at everyone in three categories where some will obvious be a part of all three or just one or two, everyone who has commented represents a reality.

The Reality is:
-Due to the lack of any viable ways of obtaining exp or mats without disrupting others or requiring others participation, these "grind spots" tend to become areas of vast desire as well as causing hostile environments where in PvP or PvE zones.

Maybe the game doesn't need any change, however with improvements like the daily dungeon EXP boosts, more of that with more relevant mat rewards (but not limited to dungeon grinding) will offset the adverse effects of what exists.

This topic really touches on all parts of the game, so maybe ZOS will continue to build upon hot discussions like this.

"just-my-dollars worth"

I'm just playing something else this week. Easier that then getting hate mail from "grinders" when I am trying to quest. I got the collectable though so thanks for that anyways ZOS.

Seriously, some people have no idea how to do the loop and break the spawning :-( Try to show them how to maximize the loop, but, some folks are just unteachable, in which case just get as much xp as you can until they get distracted but something shiny and leave... Everyone is trying to grind at the moment since we all have the cake.. even if they have no idea what they are doing.

Shunravi wrote: »

The more i read this thread, the less i feel the need to design my grinds to acomodate or move away from hindering questers.

Yep

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

LiquidSchwartz wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

The more i read this thread, the less i feel the need to design my grinds to acomodate or move away from hindering questers.

Yep

Well, with more people that hinder questers from progressing with real content, you'll just have more people coming in to specifically ruin your exp run. But if it's so hard to stay away from quest areas, maybe try Diablo 3 or something similar, can grind adds for days without any questers to bother you while people actually enjoy the content in ESO.

True - I tend to avoid areas and delves that I know are grind spots just to avoid all the BS but the attitudes expressed here do tempt me to go and deliberately disrupt their areas the way they seem happy to do to others. I won't 'cos I am not willing to sink to their level - but the temptation is there...

Not grinding right? By whos standards? When I "grind" I casually wander around killing everything I see while watching tv or talking to my wife. Did that ruin your little "maximum xp perfect roation loop path of monotony"? Too bad, so sad. 16 years of MMOs and Ive never seen complaints of "grinding wrong". Ive heard of getting in the way, and stealing kills.. but seriously, doing it wrong?This community is/has been going downhill steadily for the past 2 years.

For people who dont know how to grind. So there is people who do not understand the concept of grinding?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s21sg0goqM

Zorrashi wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

kalimar44 wrote: »

Everquest is king when it comes to grinding,mob pulling and just about everything else in a MMO. I like playing ESO,but it's nothing compared to Everquest of 1999. Most of you today wouldn't be able to handle how hard Everquest was. You would rage quit. I'm sick and tired of all the hand holding in today's MMOs.

Agreed.

The grinding for levels in ESO is nothing compared to EverQuest. I hear people whining about having to grind in ESO, and I just chuckle to myself and move on.

I see grinding in ESO (as I'm running around Questing), I'll find a comfy spot on a hillock or bluff that overlooks the grinding loop area. I'll pull out my trusty chair, turn on area chat, and just amuse myself at the comments made while they're pulling 1,000 mob of Zombies over to them.

Then I move on, content that they have no idea what real grinding is.

Should grinding ever be something in ESO though? Grinding is not legitimate content like quests or dungeons are. It's just a boring shortcut that is only valuable by virtue of its increased XP gains. Not exactly a captivating experience, and its a good thing games are finding a way to not be so reliant on them.

Some grinding is good, yes.

Should grinding ever be the point of a game? No, not at all. Look at that laughing stock that Destiny has become. Bungie *spits on ground* based their entire game model around grinding, they really messed up the RNG, and it has driven players away in droves.

But to understand the grind in EverQuest, Asheron's Call, and Ultima Online; you also have to understand the time period that these (the first MMO's) games launched in.

When these games launched, Single Player (SP) RPG's were all that people had known before. While they packed those games with (what seemed like) an unending number opf Quests and content, a staple of the RPG's that MMO's evolved from was grinding.

In those RPG's, you Quested for a bit, grind mobs of enemies for 5-10 levels just to have the equipment and level to move on to the next series of Quests and Challenges.

It took a while for the grind to work it's way out as a major part of those games. In modern MMO's grinding has evolved more as a tool to speed-level and min/max a character rather than to prepare for a certain challenge or to get a specific ultra-potent weapon. While a certain level of grind will always exist in our beloved MMO's, it isn't near the slog that it used to be.

Also; I've seen people on here (these forums) complaining about having to clear/spend an hour just to get a Trial/Group Dungeon finished. Really, this makes me laugh. These kids today... you don't know Raiding like it was "back in the day". EverQuest, Ultima Online, etc., try having to clear 6-10 hours just to finish one Raid. And there are MMO's where guilds (and multiple Guilds working together at that) have to take up to 2 days to a whole week to finish some Raids.

The Grind and Raid times are nowhere near as involved as they were even 10-15 years ago.