Should AoE caps be removed?

zZzleepyhead · April 2016

Yes

lordrichter wrote: »

I think any answer to this poll is just a random personal opinion. It is not like we know which is better.

(is that an entertaining enough answer? )

Opinions can be wrong. Especially random ones.
edit: i.e. "I hate all AOEs"

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

No

zZzleepyhead wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I think any answer to this poll is just a random personal opinion. It is not like we know which is better.

(is that an entertaining enough answer? )

Opinions can be wrong. Especially random ones.
edit: i.e. "I hate all AOEs"

Well technically that opinion cannot be wrong because is it how you yourself feel.

HoloYoitsu · April 2016

Yes

lordrichter wrote: »

I think any answer to this poll is just a random personal opinion. It is not like we know which is better.

(is that an entertaining enough answer? )

Logical fallacy. That only holds if the choice is one made in complete ignorance of both sides.

Aoe caps is not an issue that the player base is in 100% ignorance of. There is the evidence of server performance, dev statements, conceptual understanding of client/server interaction & programming languages that are all available for the players to inform themselves.

Elsonso · April 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I think any answer to this poll is just a random personal opinion. It is not like we know which is better.

(is that an entertaining enough answer? )

Aoe caps is not an issue that the player base is in 100% ignorance of. There is the evidence of server performance, dev statements, conceptual understanding of client/server interaction & programming languages that are all available for the players to inform themselves.

Yeah, but I said it in fewer words!

zZzleepyhead · April 2016

Yes

Hey ZOS

Solariken · April 2016

Yes

It makes no sense that they would keep AoE caps to limit AoE burst yet also have things like Prox Det and Vicious Death in the game. The current ZOS combat team suffers from some serious mental deficiencies.

Aquanova · April 2016

No

I haven't seen even 1 compelling argument to support removing the caps.

Only reasons given in support of this are.1) So small groups can contend with larger groups.2) Helps to break up the zerg.

Both of which cater to elitist who want the game designed to fit their play style. Only way i would support aoe cap removal is if it were the thing causing all the lag and I don't think it's the culprit.

kewl · April 2016

Yes

Doesn't matter what we think.

Nidwin · April 2016

No

AoE caps removal is a *** and extremely hard to properly balance out.

I'm not against it, but this needs to be properly tested and all AoE skills need to be reviewed and balanced out. And this is, me thinks, out of scope for ZOS as it would require a huge amount of resoures and it would need a complete revamp of the "fighting" system actually in place.

Most of you, the ones voting for Yes", only see the damage dealing aspect of the AoE cap removal and the benefits it could grant you or smaller groups fighting bigger, less organised groups.

But it's way more complex than only the damage dealing side of AoE. It's when you throw soft and hard CC's, heals, debuffs, guards, ... into the AoE caps removal bag that it becomes a nightmare to balance out. Above that you need to add a system that only the hardest skill XYZ hits someone to avoid massive damage stacking and with AoE caps removal on CC's you need to put a solid immune system to avoid CC chain locks.

mchermie · April 2016

Yes

i3ig_Gun wrote: »

In PvP No, in PvE Yes

wtf.

ToRelax · April 2016

Yes

Nidwin wrote: »

AoE caps removal is a *** and extremely hard to properly balance out.

I'm not against it, but this needs to be properly tested and all AoE skills need to be reviewed and balanced out. And this is, me thinks, out of scope for ZOS as it would require a huge amount of resoures and it would need a complete revamp of the "fighting" system actually in place.

Most of you, the ones voting for Yes", only see the damage dealing aspect of the AoE cap removal and the benefits it could grant you or smaller groups fighting bigger, less organised groups.

But it's way more complex than only the damage dealing side of AoE. It's when you throw soft and hard CC's, heals, debuffs, guards, ... into the AoE caps removal bag that it becomes a nightmare to balance out. Above that you need to add a system that only the hardest skill XYZ hits someone to avoid massive damage stacking and with AoE caps removal on CC's you need to put a solid immune system to avoid CC chain locks.

Hm... then how about... let the cap on heals alone? Also there is a cc system, and while buggy, certainly not so unstable that I would mind uncapped aoe cc. Okay, roots don't give immunity, but they are another topic being argued about.
You seem very confident in your assertion about what other players think about or not. If I had to guess, I'd say there are a lot of players taking it for granted that heals should stay capped and this topic is, in fact, about aoe damage.

Nidwin · April 2016

No

ToRelax

So a selection of which skills have their AoE cap removed or kept?

In theory this should be possible but it's going to be a very long process with more miss than hit. Add to it that it's going to make certain players extremely unhappy if their skills haven't the AoE cap removed.

Keeping the caps on healing is only feasable as long as we, healers, can keep our folks, more or less, alive. Increasing the amount of total damage through AoE caps removal isn't going to help us, without rebalancing everything. We already feel it hard the BoL nerf from 3 targets to 2 through that "intelligent" BoL healing system.

Anyway,
As I also said I'm not against the AoE cap removal, I just don't think it's feasable in TESO at this point in time without creating more issues than resolving anything.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

No

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

prootch · April 2016

No

aoe should be suppressed

Taonnor · April 2016

Yes

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKu7GnANIO8

You mean the last ESO Live with Eric Wrobel. He did not said that it will kill the performance. He said (Not exact wording): "Simply removing AoE Caps will be a non intelligent fix, i want intelligent fixes. So i try to implement ways that players need to move intelligent like spreading out. In this patch we try it with prox deto adjustments and VD set."

And he said (Not exact wording): "Removing AoE Caps will also unbalance the PvE experience of this game."

TheMachineKiller · April 2016

No

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

TheMachineKiller wrote: »

No because the devs have already explained how much re-work they'd have to do just to make it possible. It would take their focus and attention away from fixing current issues such as lag and continuous improvement.

There is so much fail going on in your post I'm going to have to resort to bullet points

• The devs have not "explained how much re-work" removing aoe caps would entail. The only statement was Wrobel's bit that he "will not" remove aoe caps because it would "impact PvE". I trust you are intelligent enough to inference what type of PvE situations would be different with removal of aoe caps in any meaningful way; it would be trash pulls in vet dungeons and trials, that's it.
• Removing or changing the aoe cap is very simple; it literally can be done as easily as adjusting individual values in the code (the number of targets in each aoe dmg group or the % of the dmg caps themselves). As I already stated, this does not involve writing any new code, it's lterally a "find, replace" function.
• Take focus and attention away? I'm sorry, but you just triggered my inner FENGRUSH. ZOS's focus and attention could not be any more 'away' from PvP performance without literally deleting Cyrodiil from the map!
• Continuous improvement? What, pray tell, do you think removing aoe caps would be? It would be one of the largest most significant improvements to the PvP meta there has been since launch. Possibly even the most important improvement. (Meta, not performance improvement)

You didn't watch the eso live episode featuring Bryan Wheeler then. He explained how infeasible it would be for them because they'd have to rework their server stuff and add a new server (or something like that).

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

No

Taonnor wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

You mean the last ESO Live with Eric Wrobel. He did not said that it will kill the performance. He said (Not exact wording): "Simply removing AoE Caps will be a non intelligent fix, i want intelligent fixes. So i try to implement ways that players need to move intelligent like spreading out. In this patch we try it with prox deto adjustments and VD set."

And he said (Not exact wording): "Removing AoE Caps will also unbalance the PvE experience of this game."

Well was a LOT more to it than that but yes in a nutshell thats kinda what he said in a way. Id suggest everyone watch it. He speaks for a good 15 minutes about aoe caps.

RoamingRiverElk · April 2016

I too imagine that people are thinking that the current caps on healing would stay, while the damage caps would be removed.

Inhale and sap essence are fine as they are, they don't need to heal from 7+ people. Healing springs for sure should not heal more than 6 people. I'm not certain what the cap on healing springs is currently though.

Tavore1138 · April 2016

No

I voted no but I really meant yes - I feel it's time we tried some reverse psychology on ZOS...

Ajax_22 · April 2016

Yes

Nidwin wrote: »

AoE caps removal is a *** and extremely hard to properly balance out.

I'm not against it, but this needs to be properly tested and all AoE skills need to be reviewed and balanced out. And this is, me thinks, out of scope for ZOS as it would require a huge amount of resoures and it would need a complete revamp of the "fighting" system actually in place.

Most of you, the ones voting for Yes", only see the damage dealing aspect of the AoE cap removal and the benefits it could grant you or smaller groups fighting bigger, less organised groups.

But it's way more complex than only the damage dealing side of AoE. It's when you throw soft and hard CC's, heals, debuffs, guards, ... into the AoE caps removal bag that it becomes a nightmare to balance out. Above that you need to add a system that only the hardest skill XYZ hits someone to avoid massive damage stacking and with AoE caps removal on CC's you need to put a solid immune system to avoid CC chain locks.

Completely remove the cap on damage. Keep all the current caps on heal, and buffs, but make all of them only affect the members of your group. For CC and defuffs keep the caps in game now.

Joy_Division · April 2016

Yes

Aquanova wrote: »

I haven't seen even 1 compelling argument to support removing the caps.

Only reasons given in support of this are.1) So small groups can contend with larger groups.2) Helps to break up the zerg.

Both of which cater to elitist who want the game designed to fit their play style. Only way i would support aoe cap removal is if it were the thing causing all the lag and I don't think it's the culprit.

You have not been reading very much if that's what you think.

And since when are people who want game rules to be consistent and not want to see Zergplay "elitists"?

The-Baconator · April 2016

Yes

The more I play this patch the more I see why there was such concern around removing AoE caps on the part of Wrobel, because without completely rebalancing AoE damage ttk would be even more stupid than it is now. I honestly feel like implementing some form of dynamic ult gen and buffing the nondamage effects of ground AoE ults (and removing the 6 player cap on the effects) would be a decent enough of an alternative, maybe even a better one. The odds of all AoE being rebalanced because of PvP is next to nothing but a buff to negate and standard's heal debuff would have a negligible effect on pve while providing plenty of tools to fight bigger groups in a manner besides decreasing ttk to zero.

Ajax_22 · April 2016

Yes

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

If by explains in detail you mean talked in unintelligible circles for about five minutes? Then talked about his pipe dream of zerg busting siege. Concluding with mumbling about PvE concerns. Then yes Wrobel explained it in explicit detail. Wrobel's reign of one button zerg busting solutions needs to end. In the original AOE cap poll, before they were introduced, the community told ZOS exactly what would happen if they were put in. They were warned about the ball groups spamming AOE that plagued GW2, but ignored us. Again with the VD set the community told ZOS exactly what would happen, and again we were correct about zergs abusing their easy button. AOE caps, Proxy Det, and VD all need to go, and nothing like them needs to be added ever again. They are not intelligent solutions and they do not work. They only succeed in compounding the problem.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

No

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

If by explains in detail you mean talked in unintelligible circles for about five minutes? Then talked about his pipe dream of zerg busting siege. Concluding with mumbling about PvE concerns. Then yes Wrobel explained it in explicit detail. Wrobel's reign of one button zerg busting solutions needs to end. In the original AOE cap poll, before they were introduced, the community told ZOS exactly what would happen if they were put in. They were warned about the ball groups spamming AOE that plagued GW2, but ignored us. Again with the VD set the community told ZOS exactly what would happen, and again we were correct about zergs abusing their easy button. AOE caps, Proxy Det, and VD all need to go, and nothing like them needs to be added ever again. They are not intelligent solutions and they do not work. They only succeed in compounding the problem.

To me all that programming talk is greek. I dont really understand what hes talking about.

HoloYoitsu · April 2016

Yes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Aquanova wrote: »

I haven't seen even 1 compelling argument to support removing the caps.

Only reasons given in support of this are.1) So small groups can contend with larger groups.2) Helps to break up the zerg.

Both of which cater to elitist who want the game designed to fit their play style. Only way i would support aoe cap removal is if it were the thing causing all the lag and I don't think it's the culprit.

You have not been reading very much if that's what you think.

And since when are people who want game rules to be consistent and not want to see Zergplay "elitists"?

I've been called a no skill zergballing elitist ganker, what does that make me? So confused.

Xsorus · April 2016

Yes

Sureshawt wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dude you have to look at daoc bombing videos. People were so fast to spread out when an 8 man grp rushed the 40 ++ zerg bc if they wouldn't they died in seconds...

Yea that kinda tactic makes a great video until other players wise up and realize AoE bomb groups are the winning tactic. What do you think happens the next time that 8-man bomb group runs into a 40-man bomb group?

Believe man I was in that game. I ran with an organized group and that is what the game boiled down to at the end (end for me anyway). Just blobs of players running around popping off AoEs in any largescale encounter. Boring.....

For the record..Pretty much this guys entire post didn't actually happen in DAOC.

Rune_Relic · April 2016

No

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

Ghost-Shot · April 2016

Yes

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

No, zergs just turn into focus targeting rather than AOE another group down

Ajax_22 · April 2016

Yes

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Ajax_22 wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

In the video I posted eric wrobel explains in detail why AOE caps arent going anywhere.

If by explains in detail you mean talked in unintelligible circles for about five minutes? Then talked about his pipe dream of zerg busting siege. Concluding with mumbling about PvE concerns. Then yes Wrobel explained it in explicit detail. Wrobel's reign of one button zerg busting solutions needs to end. In the original AOE cap poll, before they were introduced, the community told ZOS exactly what would happen if they were put in. They were warned about the ball groups spamming AOE that plagued GW2, but ignored us. Again with the VD set the community told ZOS exactly what would happen, and again we were correct about zergs abusing their easy button. AOE caps, Proxy Det, and VD all need to go, and nothing like them needs to be added ever again. They are not intelligent solutions and they do not work. They only succeed in compounding the problem.

To me all that programming talk is greek. I dont really understand what hes talking about.

He didn't use programming talk though. He just talked about all of the abilities that were getting changed, siege, and PvE concerns. He mentioned performance issues, especially with sets and abilities that proc off damage. Fair enough that's actually a valid point, and the only one he made in that interview. There is a simple solution for that though. Make the proc coefficient on all AOE abilities 0. If AOEs can't proc anything then that is no longer a concern.

@Wrobel If you want all of these posts, and the AOE cap riot signs on ESO Live to go away then just answer our questions, and open up some back an forth communication on the subject. One forum post that had 35 pages with one response from you, that didn't even talk about AOE caps, is nothing more than a slap in the face. Why did you add AOE caps to begin with, because they weren't always game? Why did you decide on the arbitrary numbers of 6 take full damage, the next 24 take 50%, and then up to 60 takes 25% damage? Exactly what issues, and concerns are you facing with their removal (in as much detail as you can give us)?

Every argument that I have seen for keeping AOE caps on damage abilities in game has multiple counters aren't that difficult to implement (other than the "but my zerg nerf" arguments). Concerned the removal will make trials to easy? I'll take a quote from @FENGRUSH "buff the *** mobs". Add a buff the trial and dungeon trash mobs that reduce AOE damage by X% until you get your desired TTK. Ability and set item proc would cause to much server strain? Set the proc coefficient to 0 on AOE abilities. Obviously that isn't a blanket solution due to abilities like Puncturing Sweeps and Biting Jabs counting as AOEs, but these special case abilities can be changed on a case by case basis. With sets in the game like Leki's Focus those abilities should be reworked so that they don't count as AOEs anyway.

The best solution to end all of this would be to change the PTS for month while no other changes are on the table. Give us a PTS with no AOE caps on damage, 6 person cap on healing and buffs, and AOEs not able to proc anything. Then you advertise the hell out it. I guarantee if you announce this in game and on the forums you will see a pop locked PTS Cyrodiil, and that will give you all the data you could dream of.

At this point it honestly feels like the only reason ZOS won't remove AOE caps is because they don't want to admit that it was a bad idea to put them in game in the first place.

HoloYoitsu · April 2016

Yes

Rune_Relic wrote: »

VoiDGhOs7 wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

I hate all AOE. The more they get nerfed the better.

Aoe cap is not a nerf to Aoe, it helps the bigger groups. Just think about it a little bit longer.

AOE reliant gameplay is lazy, stupid and over-powered. I know the argument you refer to, but it amounts to fighting evil with evil. That is, leave it to the siege engins and make every other ability single target, so that at least a modicum of skill, like umm........I don't know ......... TARGETING SOMETHING is required.

Good luck wiping zergs only with single target spells

zergs cant exist in single target environment.
How are you going to heal/purge/barrier if they only hit you or 1 other ?
Zergsballs bombgroups and pain trains rely on aoe to exist.

Anyway.....theres another way....
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/257409/performance-population-godmode-a-fix

Congratulations! You have a sig worthy quote!